India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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V_Raman
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by V_Raman »

from that twitter map - the fight happened very close to LAC - ghusana typically means deep intrusion - this is the term used by the PM.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Rakesh »

bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.
The PM is not obligated to give you any details. If you are still unable to connect the dots between the EAM's statement and the PM's speech, I will grant you a month off from the forum for you to figure things out.

Enjoy and have fun!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by CRamS »

Guys, India's domestic discourse is utterly shameful. Its as if for the opposition jokers, ModiJi is the enemy and not China. I don't even know why Chincoms and TSP have to fight India when they have so many friends in India.

I just don't understand the ModiJi haters and even on this forum. For heaven's sake, ModiJi does not hold a magic wand. Those mocking his 56" chest understand that his chest is only as wide as the Indian army's chest. Shameful to sit on the sidelines and take pot shots. His haters are hell bent on making this Galwan encounter as an unmitigated disaster caused by ModiJi. How so, I don't understand. I mean Chincoms tried changing the status quo, our guys defended it at great cost and thats where we are. Instead of celebrating that, people have gone into convulsions trying to 'prove' ModiJi lost some imaginary battle.

Look at this shameless scum bag Ajai Soothia's tune before and now

https://twitter.com/amitmalviya/status/ ... 8037249031
samirdiw
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by samirdiw »

Iyersan wrote:https://twitter.com/shivaroor/status/12 ... 40261?s=21

Shiv Aroor effectively states we don’t have control over finger 4 to 8.
If we cant take back finger 5 then why cant we have at least folks on the top of the ridge like they have face to face and look down ? we can also construct road right up to it.
Cyrano
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Cyrano »

Good post YashG, agree with most of your points.

If I may share some perspective of my own:

If we look at things from China's perspective, this conflict is happening at 3000 kms from their "mainland" and poses no real threat to their vital interests. No major threat to their economy or trade which has other issues to grapple with. No threat to their society or internal stability because all information is tightly controlled and they can spread any propaganda they want, can throw dissidents into wells. No threat to the establishment, even if it impacts Xi, some other equally crooked CCP leader can take his place. They can afford a border conflict for years and keep turning the heat up or down as they wish. Even territorial integrity of a few thousands kms of stolen lands is no big deal come to think of it, but they won't let go lest it impact their perceived dominance. The territory has some bearing to their OBOR, but even that's con scheme not "vital" for their future really speaking, its a nice to have. They are in no hurry whatsoever. So India's border moves are in reality a minor irritant and they can slowly bleed us or irritate us back easily via Pak, Nepal, Srilanka, Bangladesh... Basically they know India has no "leverage" on China.

On the other hand, the conflict is much closer to Indian heart land. India will find it harder to afford a multiyear conflict. So many soft spots - democracy constraints, moral righteousness itch, Internal dissent, risk of foreign investment getting hit, flight of capital, political unrest, internal disunity of a multi-cultural society, bikau media, economic distress, unfavourable monsoons... Modi will have to stand for re-election in 4 years, opens a possibility to get a pliable or risk averse Govt installed in Delhi. Many many concomitant vulnerabilities that lionhearted soldiers can do nothing about. (Note: This is not India bashing or chaddi shivering, some of these are true for even the US). Given all this China would actually be impressed that we have mustered the gall to put up a fight that we are not sure we can win. They probably see us as being foolhardy and delusional. So cutting India down to size is the only attitude to be expected. It will be dirty because, as they see it, why play fairly with a petulant and weak opponent ? (the same attitude translates elsewhere as why play fairly with a very strong opponent and risk losing)

There are 3 things that will make China reconsider its attitude and approach towards India:
1. India is able to bring along powerful allies willing to fight -> changes the power play, too big a fight so they will negotiate seriously to give and take
2. India mauls them badly in a limited way, like a cornered tiger -> they will let us gain some limited barren lands and be happy with it, mulling revenge for another day and/or in another way
3. India is able to go from being a minor irritant on faraway borders to a major nuisance threatening the unity of the heartland -> they need to find a different equilibrium with this formidable opponent, so they will be amenable to find compromise and create interdependency to avoid future risks.

(Note that "crush India" type response doesn't figure above. They are a bunch of slimy snakes, not truly evil to the bone Rakshas - that would require some degree of integrity and courage to fight till the end which I don't think they have)

So despite all the emotions and the urge to display our recently grown cojones - which I feel as well, I'd really want us & more importantly the GoI to deeply think thru what is the path we are going to take from here on.

Lastly, we ought to take pride in the fact that our brave soldiers fought to death, but we can't take any pride from the fact that they died.
Last edited by Cyrano on 20 Jun 2020 03:34, edited 1 time in total.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Philip wrote:
The DM,Rajnath Singh is to visit Moscow on the 23rd. according to latest media reports. One hopes he has a large shopping list with him ......
:rotfl:
Yessss buy russian, keep buying and buying and buying Russian .....
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Rakesh »

Larry Walker wrote:
Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Bas kar kake Bacche ki jaan lega kya? Unka mann kiya to kiya.

Ye Shaolin wala khahani kahan suna Kerala- Bengaluru mein?
Yaar Tuesday morning se DKMKB (d==dimaag) kar rakha hai yeh Chiniyon ne ... Isiliye Friday evening baith ke soch raha hoon..kya mila yeh sab karke in chachundaron ko ??!!
Kya aap ek maheene ke liye BRF se door baithakar sochana chaahenge?

Mujhe aapako vah avasar dene mein khushee hogee. Aapkee pasand?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

I am apologizing in advance if this hurts the sensibilities of anyone here. But we need to step back and look at the issue at hand from a purely analytical POV.
Also, please do not misconstrue what I write as being insulting to the memory of any of our martyrs.


We need to stop looking at the issue so closely. Whether we lost the Galwan valley, whether the Chinese lost 43 or 400 men, when this happened, why they did this, none of this matters in the big picture. Period.

Neither should we be bothered about trying to recover land at that exact same place, dismantle structures, or try to get an equivalent or X times land in another area. And we definitely should not rush back into action immediately. We will strike when its advantageous to us. This is not ritual agonistic war. Period.

This is about so much more. This is about lebensraum. Till now, except for a core group of people in India, namely the armed forces, some analysts, people like BRF community, and a handful of politicos, people had forgotten this. A democracy, like India needs public opinion to get cracking. Additionally, idealistic nations (and I remember reading this on BRF a decade ago), take a lot to get provoked, but once they mobilize, they don't stop till finishing off the enemy till the end. Our end objective is either absolute war (sounds impractical now) or Instrumental war.

What the Chinese have done is widened the hole in the Pandora's box. Let me fall back on our trusted friend Klauswitz and his definition of the triumvirate necessary for victory in total war.
  1. The Army- If there was any doubt about the abilities or motivation of the Indian Army, that were laid to rest on the 15th of June. The Spirit of Rezang La is still alive. What were the Chinese thinking that murdering the I have two things on my wish list which I hope that this incident will catalyze- a) The Indian Armed forces will accelerate adoption of local kit (Dhanush, LCA, LCH, et al); and b) Senior brass are going to accelerate integrated operations and planning. Nothing like a small crisis for speeding up critical projects (just like 1962, catalyzed use of air power, India's entry into Jet Age, rapid expansion of Indian Navy, etc)
  2. The People- For a long time the Indian people have forgotten. The generation who lived through the 1962 humiliation have grown old and do not dominate mind space. Years of Congress rule, and white washing of Nehru, have diluted those memories. Chinese economic success, has made it difficult to highlight and argue about China being a danger. What this crisis has done is made people aware of the perfidy of China. Today's India, is much more confident and capable that the one in the 60's, and if we put our minds to it, people will realize why we can do one better. I am happy seeing the Whatsapp forwards, boycott China movements, etc.
  3. The State- Yes, the crisis can always be managed better, but its not been mismanaged. Let's have faith in the government. Democracy has disadvantages, but it's strength is how public opinion determines government action. Today the space for political parties to appease China and get away with it is shrinking, so even if the worst happens, and our current leadership is replaced, I am hopeful that China will be a key part of all agenda's. The wonderful opportunity that this crisis has given to the government is to rise this patriotic wave and focus on an economic rejuvenation plan. Blame China, but kick start manufacturing in India. Attract FDI by showing that whatever happens, you are at loggerheads to China and an opportunity to diversify risk. Focus on strategic industries. Semiconductors, EV, renewables, etc.
I would summarize as:
  • India will have to fight China, not for pride but for practical reasons
  • This crisis has resulted in Indian public opinion turning against China even more
  • It has therefore increased the probability of India preparing for this war seriously as all three of Klauswitz's Second trinity are aligning
  • Our objective should not be of a quick redemption of honour. Let's not give way but also not make aggressive noise. We will choose when and where to strike. And while I have the fullest respect for the martyrs, we should not let emotion cloud our judgement. We are here not to avenge (absolutely no place for words like these in war) but to win. That's the best way to avenge the fallen.
  • We should focus on preparing for absolute-total war, at a time and place of our choosing
Gurus, please opine.
Last edited by Mukesh.Kumar on 20 Jun 2020 03:38, edited 1 time in total.
suryag
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by suryag »

BTW, if we are not prepared to make the LAC hot(not because of men or material shortage but because of our priority) as our intent is to clear up occupied Ladakh in the west we should keep it warm by having better patrols in the disputed area and at an opportune time go for a limited assault and change Aksai Chin to Aksai Hind.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by CRamS »

Pant summarizes the conflict. This is thoughtful analysis

https://www.hindustantimes.com/analysis ... Jtz4M.html
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Manish_Sharma »

amar_p wrote:NRao, right you are. ...
With that 63 billion gone they will have much less money to do mischief, to fund Porkistan against us. 63 billion instead going in salaries to our own workforce.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Manish_Sharma »

Deans wrote:



That's my point. When the area becomes inhospitable, the Chinese have to go back some 3000+ km, we have to go back 10 (while keeping a picket present there, as we have done in other equally inhospitable places. This is a game of patience ....
Perhaps that's why AAJ TAK channel emphasized on sonia today .... " While sonia gandhi was only one to ask direct question to PM, that if China is occupying our land..."

China has probably no stamina to stay there for long periods.... due to their army of pampered little emperors hence they pressure Modi through proxies like aajtak, sonia, shukla etc.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

suryag wrote:BTW, if we are not prepared to make the LAC hot(not because of men or material shortage but because of our priority) as our intent is to clear up occupied Ladakh in the west we should keep it warm by having better patrols in the disputed area and at an opportune time go for a limited assault and change Aksai Chin to Aksai Hind.
What is the best way to launch ops into Aksai Chin for liberation or occupied Ladakh?
Mukesh.Kumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

Manish_Sharma wrote:
amar_p wrote:NRao, right you are. ...
With that 63 billion gone they will have much less money to do mischief, to fund Porkistan against us. 63 billion instead going in salaries to our own workforce.
Absolutely @Manish_Sharmaji. War is not only fought with arms and soldiers, but by all means. Sometimes it's the most non-glamorous initiatives that win wars. Logistics, cramped U-Boats rather than grand battleships, the tiny Gnat against the Sabre, or the mass produced T-34 against the PzKpfw III or PzKpfw IV, the English archers vs the French Knights at Agincourt
Last edited by Mukesh.Kumar on 20 Jun 2020 03:55, edited 1 time in total.
samirdiw
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by samirdiw »

bkswarti wrote:China claims the Galwan valley is their territory. Modi doesn't counter it.Now Modi claims that there was no intrusion and no Indian land was captured. He didn't mention Galwan valley at all.

So is the Indian government supporting the Chinese narrative?

This is ridiculous. A simple statement on the territorial claim over the valley would have sufficed. But so far, those statements have only come from the Chinese who have claimed the Valley as their own. It is only logical to surmise that our government has ceded territory and is now trying to protect the embarrassment.

Looks like modi lost a chance to corner the congress. He could have told this is an area (pangong) where india used to patrol earlier has been blocked by the chinese which is the truth. Congress would shout why they have not been eliminated and then Modi could have used this opportunity to get buy in from all party meet for resolution to remove those squatters or for talks now congress has also been part of whatever happens next. This could have also triggered the country to further start banning chinese goods. Now he is left to fight a lone battle with his supporters not happy at the change in ground and what feels like a half-truth and his opposers using the proof to say that pm lied and worst of all chinese using this as proof that 5-8 was never indias since the pm himself says no change in ground.

There is lot of pressure on him but he could have made the thing more grey rather than clearly saying there is no entry into our lac. This seems more like something what earlier cong would have said but ofcourse without all the road building work that modiji did (which he did mention in his speech).
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Cyrano »

Mukesh garu,
I'm no guru, but I broadly agree. We need to integrate the unfriendly neighbours China has gifted us with into the equation as well. We have to integrate overcoming those pressure points into the overall response construct.

Saama, Dana, Bheda, Danda.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

China has probably no stamina to sta for long periods.... due to their army of pampered little emperors hence they pressure Modi through proxies like aajtak, sonia, shukla etc.
This is what is called war by all means..

What makes you say no stamina?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Mukesh.Kumar »

amar_p wrote:Mukesh garu,
I'm no guru, but I broadly agree. We need to integrate the unfriendly neighbours China has gifted us with into the equation as well. We have to integrate overcoming those pressure points into the overall response construct.

Saama, Dana, Bheda, Danda.
Amar_p ji no guru for me. Am a learner here.

Could you expand on your point on unfriendly neighbours please?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by SidSoma »

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
amar_p wrote:Mukesh garu,
I'm no guru, but I broadly agree. We need to integrate the unfriendly neighbours China has gifted us with into the equation as well. We have to integrate overcoming those pressure points into the overall response construct.

Saama, Dana, Bheda, Danda.
Amar_p ji no guru for me. Am a learner here.

Could you expand on your point on unfriendly neighbours please?
Probably he means to say.

The counter to what china is doing may be to take some area of PoK. They are uniting a larger front surrounding India along both borders by recruiting Pak and now Nepal. They are also clear in their efforts to take Bangladesh and Lanka into their fold so as to surround India Completly. Hence India's response should cover all these points as well.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by suryag »

I still believe this move by the CPC was to help their b**** who is facing serious issues on Baloch/GB/financial/Covid fronts. CPC also understands that if Baloch/GB is gone then BRI is gone so they ended up agreeing to help. Pakis'/CPC intention is to buy time until they dislodge Modi somehow next term . Somehow tactically make us commit forces that could have been otherwise deployed or kept ready for the western theater. CPC while playing along however, thought why not also grab land while needling India. Basically, it is a diabolical game being played by Pakis and CPC to prevent India from getting her territory in the West back, I dont see any other reason for the current move by CPC given issues in HongKong and Trump dada breathing down their neck.

BTW, one of the indicators of our intent for the west side is start of reporting of temperatures of Occupied Ladakh areas. It is in fact a very big thing in my book
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Philip »

I too am at a loss to understand why the PM said no Indian territory has been lost,considering the murderous actions of the PLA.Some may feel that it gives China a PR handle . However, at this moment,we,all citizens of India stand firmly behind the PM as we must to lead the country in this hour of crisis to eventually defeat the diabolic gameplan of crypto-commie fascist pig XI.

Yes, the MEA did say that PLA troops were inside Indian territory,the DM admitting that they came in "more" this time,etc.,.but the enormous outrage of the nation ,similar decades ago during Nehru's time which forced him to wage war with China when we were unprepared ended up in the bitter lesson of '62.
The PM's statement is to me a googly.The Chins can't take umbrage at the PM.They must be scratching their heads right now trying to find an answer. It is very simple. We need to build up our forces for the long haul given China's huge staying power.Just one
fact to show its muscle.China launched its 9th. 1350t missile corvette this yr. alone !
Why is the DM going to Russia? Despite some sniping from the gallery, the fact remains that Russia is still our closest military ally willing to give us almost anything in its arsenal,nuclear subs,BMos,MBTs,aircraft, nuclear power plants, etc.,even co-developing a hypersonic version of BMos.No douñ*

To evict China from whatever position it occupies,requires patience ,planning,purchases,purpose and precision in our counter attack strategy .As they say," revenge is a dish best eaten cold" and " the vulture is a patient bird", and that " there are 100 ways to skin a (Chinko) cat."
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Cyrano »

Let me try Mukesh ji,
To your points Military, People, State, I would add a fourth:

Foreign Policy :
- There is no shame in augmenting our strengths by adopting a theatre view of concentric circles of immediate and regional neighbours, oceanic and global allies as we take on China
- Intensifying our engagements with Bangladesh, Nepal, Srilanka, Myanmar, Maldives
- Keep them firmly on our side to prevent China from playing surrounding tactics - for ex egging Nepal into conflict with us or pressuring them and others to allow Chinese bases
- India + neighbours we can act as an extended maritime space, share intelligence, resources
- We can be creative like try and open another front through Myanmar closer to Chinese heartland etc.
- Keep Pak even more firmly under check by ensuring their economy stays in the drain
- Ensure unflinching and redundant support from ME nations for our energy supplies, even if we may not get them to cut off China's supplies
- Actively and continuously manage the narrative on a global scale

We have started on many of these (except the narrative part where I feel we are pi$$ poor), but we need to notch it up several levels if we are serious about winning.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by vimal »

The statement that India did not lose any territory will come back to haunt India and will be Modi's "not a blade of grass grows there" moment.
Compare to that the aggressive language of the Chins makes India look weak. Hopefully, there is something that will be done but we know not what that is.

Meanwhile, our MoD and Fauj will continue to do the summer, winter, monsoon, space, Moon, Mars, Milky Way trials for desi designs and then select a phoren one with 2 month long trial.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ks_sachin »

vimal wrote:The statement that India did not lose any territory will come back to haunt India and will be Modi's "not a blade of grass grows there" moment.
Compare to that the aggressive language of the Chins makes India look weak. Hopefully, there is something that will be done but we know not what that is.

Meanwhile, our MoD and Fauj will continue to do the summer, winter, monsoon, space, Moon, Mars, Milky Way trials for desi designs and then select a phoren one with 2 month long trial.
Have faith in the army. If the political establishment backs it we will retaliate at a point of our choosing. 3000,km is a long border
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Kakkaji »

Mukesh.Kumar wrote: I would summarize as:
  • India will have to fight China, not for pride but for practical reasons
  • This crisis has resulted in Indian public opinion turning against China even more
  • It has therefore increased the probability of India preparing for this war seriously as all three of Klauswitz's Second trinity are aligning
  • Our objective should not be of a quick redemption of honour. Let's not give way but also not make aggressive noise. We will choose when and where to strike. And while I have the fullest respect for the martyrs, we should not let emotion cloud our judgement. We are here not to avenge (absolutely no place for words like these in war) but to win. That's the best way to avenge the fallen.
  • We should focus on preparing for absolute-total war, at a time and place of our choosing
Gurus, please opine.
I am not a Guru, but I agree with you 100%.

This is going to be a long war. The entire society will have to mobilize and prepare.

Like with a regular program of exercise and diet, a little bit of military and economic muscle will have to be added every day. We will then get to a point where we will force the Chinese to back off forever.

Our three generations have lived with Chinese bullying. It is our duty to see the next generation does not have to face this problem anymore.

JMT.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Kati »

Davidrock wrote:Even Lt Gen Atta Hasnain had agreed that if they don’t withdraw before winter then we may have to take action
A naive question:
So what happens when the winter sets in?
Can we stay put till winter (at whatever cost), and slowly recover the area once the Cheen thugs thin out?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Sumair »

We will get our window soon. China is bound to go through tumultuous leadership change sooner than later and we have to be ready to pounce and get back all of Aksai Indian if not all of Tibet. Chinese will be incapacitated as they don't act without instructions from top.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ragupta »

I would say keep it hot, let them be in ready state all the time, they must live in fear. keep planes, helicopters flying, and keep inducting highly mobile platform and sensors in the forward area. keep watch, use heavy equipment to create nuisance for them, so that they do not sleep from now on.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by KSingh »

Sumair wrote:We will get our window soon. China is bound to go through tumultuous leadership change sooner than later and we have to be ready to pounce and get back all of Aksai Indian if not all of Tibet. Chinese will be incapacitated as they don't act without instructions from top.
This cannot be counted upon. Xi has elevated himself to previously untouched heights in terms of state leadership, he’s effectively made himself premier for life.

This is now a personal project of his, maybe in 15-20 years he will go but I’m sure there will be a succession plan in place by then.

People have been predicting China’s downfall for decades, it looks increasingly unlikely as the state has pushed its tentacles further and further inside the lives of its citizens.


But I doubt India will have to wait long for the next series of Chinese provocations.


As has been mentioned, I hope it can be impressed upon the citizens that this is now a generational conflict and the priority is survival. The Chinese are not ever going to backdown, you either stand up to them or they’ll steam roll you. In previous years things like a 42+ squadron Air Force or blue water navy seemed to have become column fillers only and “nice to have” things but way down the list of priorities for an aloof citizenship. But I hope 2020 in more ways than one have clarified most minds. The danger is not a weak Pakistan and it isn’t abstract in so far as China is concerned.


The first bloodshed for decades on the eastern front MUST open eyes and it MUST be seen as a moment that changes everything.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by VikramS »

In any conflict, especially with a adversary like the Chinese, deception is important.

It is clear that India's primary goal was to get the 10 captured soldiers back. That is done successfully.

Now the long game begins.

This has also given an opportunity to move more hardware to the UT of Ladakh which itself opens up other possibilities.

In the next few months, India needs to ramp up domestic arm production significantly. Use this as an opportunity to scale-up and clean up the OFB, grow private sector participation, and get the Armed Forces to embrace India made products.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Sumair »

Not predicting Chinese downfall but can definitely foresee leadership change as Mr. Eleven has set China on a confrontational course with everyone and that is making alot of people uncomfortable within and outside of China. So it is bound to happen. So yes in mean time keep it hot and bide for the opportunity. Make Defense budget to be 5% of GDP for next 10 years as a law no questions asked.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by khan »

Are the Chinese still at the other areas (Galwan, Hot Springs etc) or have they left?

This might not be over by a long shot.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by schinnas »

For those disappointed that PM didn't rabble rouse, the following are clear from his speech and formal MEA statements :

1. Chinese have not entered Indian controlled territory.
2. They have however put permanent settlements in the area that neither country controlled but both claimed and patrolled, which is breaking the status quo.
3. Per PM, if they try to enter even an inch of Indian controlled territory, they will be forcibly thrown out.
4. Bravery of our soldiers on June 15th late night taught a lesson to the aggressors.

So between MEA statement that Cheen claims are untenable and they are changing status quo in violation of agreements and PM's statement there is full picture.

What PM didn't spell out is what would be India's reaponse to Chinese provocations and change of status quo in deceptive manner. Two can play the game of deception. It's not Cheen's exclusive right. India's response will come when Cheen least expects it. This is not the right time to go for pre mature war or launch a limited attack on fingers 4 to 8 in Pongsong lake. When matters, our current civilian leadership and army have executed time and again.

Just think about the A team that we have now. Accomplished CDS for tri services coordination, most decorated and accomplished NSA, Army chief who has studied China deeply and Lt Gen leading forces in Ladakh region who is Cheen expert and fluent in Mandarin, most skilled foreign minister, a PM and HM with nerves of steel and capability for calm execution. One could not have asked for a better set of leaders at this juncture.! They know when and what needs to be done. When we learn of what they accomplished, we can talk.

It was OK to express rage at the barbaric ambush of Col. Babu and his boys, but now let's cool down and use this forum for calm, productive discussion.

Personally speaking, I am not a defense expert and going to focus more on whatever constructive contribution I can do to make a self reliant India in my areas of expertise.

Edited to fix typos.
Last edited by schinnas on 20 Jun 2020 07:11, edited 1 time in total.
arshyam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by arshyam »

Davidrock wrote:Latest satellite images show they have taken heights now.
I assume you have a source for this?
Davidrock wrote:I believe a small response quickly is easy than huge response later, which will be way up the escalation ladder.
There are enough pointers on this very thread that have indicated a response has indeed taken place. Modi's speech also confirms it, when he said "maarte maarte mar gaye". By not revealing the details yet, we are keeping our options open for further action if needed. As simple as that.
arshyam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by arshyam »

bkswarti wrote:
nam wrote:
Buddy, there is a map in this thread explaining clearly about Galwan valley. When each side say Galwan valley is theirs.. BOTH are correct.

This is because, part of the Galwan valley is on Indian LAC and the other part is on the Chinese side.

So NO, PM has NOT given away anything. And the Chinese cannot get our part, because our forces are deployed heavily in the valley! :roll:
Your comment has helped calm me down. I would still like the PM to be a little more detailed. You give the Chinese an inch and they will take a mile.
What do you expect? A presentation from the PM with a map and a laser pointer?

By not being too detailed, we keep our options open and we can to take some other positions as and when needed without being accused on changing status quo, etc. A too detailed an explanation means we have drawn a line in the sand, and any further action would be painted as our own aggression, since our own words could be used against us.

This is not a settled border to be detailed, but a "line" of "actual control", which by its very name, implies that it can change to the extent we (or they) could control.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by banrjeer »

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:I am apologizing in advance if this hurts the sensibilities of anyone here. But we need to step back and look at the issue at hand from a purely analytical POV.
Also, please do not misconstrue what I write as being insulting to the memory of any of our martyrs.

----
I would summarize as:
  • India will have to fight China, not for pride but for practical reasons
    Gurus, please opine.
How do you keep the population from forgetting that there is a larger mission and that they are fighting for their own well being and prosperity?

Corporate India needs to understand that Investment in a security umbrella is going to help their term valuations. ...What the US enjoys today. US companies take bets that their competitors dont have the balls to make.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by arshyam »

bkswarti wrote:^Laxmanji; PM did however say that Chinese did not intrude inside indian territory.

Then why was there a clash; were our soldiers in their territory?

https://m.rediff.com/news/report/china- ... 200619.htm
Think it through saar. The PM has shown that he doesn't say things lightly, and that taking him at his word is the best way to understand what he is saying...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Sanju »

^I believe that he has been asked to take a month off and therefore will not be able to respond to you.
arshyam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by arshyam »

OK.

In the meantime, I noticed this part about the new bridge:

Indian Army Finishes Constructing Strategic Bridge Over Galwan River Which China Tried To Stop - Swarajya
The four-span bridge is situated 3 kilometre East of the Shyok river-Galwan river confluence with Patrolling Point 14 - which is said to be the venue of the deadly face-off between Indian and Chinese troops on 15 June.
If the bridge is 3 kms east of the confluence, it is well inside the Galwan valley. I was under the impression that the bridge was across the Shyok river, in order to cross over from the DS-DBO road, which is running on the west bank of the Shyok. It made sense that the Chinese would object to such a bridge as it gave us the potential to build into the Galwan valley. However, it looks like such a bridge was already completed as this one is well inside the Galwan valley. So for those who believe China's claim to the entire Galwan valley is true, this action belies it completely. We are well entrenched inside the valley, entrenched enough to be building bridges and other associated infra. In fact, it shows the Chinese aren't as far-sighted as we think - they escalated only once we were entrenched well inside the valley.

Also, which army would build a bridge inside a narrow valley without being confident about controlling the heights around it? Something to think about.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by khan »

IMO PM’s statement about no Chinese occupying Indian territory had to be referencing Galwan - otherwise it doesn’t make sense (forget about the lake - what about Aksai Chin etc).

There is no way he would give it up in a speech like that. I think a 1 line clarification from FM or something like that (maybe when things cool down) is in order.
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