India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 21 Jun 2020 15:02

amar_p wrote:What was the Chinese plan exactly, what all went as per? Please educate us Sir


Indian KIA and PoW's without firing a single shot and then BIF would create enough internal pressure on GoI to align on Chinese terms.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 21 Jun 2020 15:11

Let's standardize terminology and start calling it the India-Tibet border in all official communications. That should get the Chinese govt riled up 8) .

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AdityaM » 21 Jun 2020 15:20

Explains with pics what earthworks the Chinese are doing in Galwan

https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis ... 2020-06-21

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby tsarkar » 21 Jun 2020 15:21

ks_sachin wrote:
tsarkar wrote:
3 Medium Regiment is an Indian Artillery Unit deployed in that area as per Lt. General P Ravi Shankar, former commandant, Indian Artillery. That part doesnt seem correct. It is a Sikh unit, and its martyrs are mentioned in the Indian Express article. There is also a Tamil Artillery regiment whose soldier was also martyred.


Tsarkar Sir,

Is not Arty all India all class.


It is, like the Paras & Brigade of Guards.

For new raising, it is all India mixed class.

However for older battalions, a historical affiliation is retained. Also new soldiers from the original areas prefer to join the unit which historically were from the area.

The Guards first 4 battalions were from Punjab, Rajputana, Grenadiers & Rajput. So these battalions will see troops from those areas choosing those units. Para too 1st 3 battalions were Punjab, Maratha & Kumaon. 21 Maratha Light Infantry became 21 SF.

3 Medium Regiment is among the older artillery regiments and hence the original affiliation continued.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 21 Jun 2020 15:25

k prasad wrote:Let's standardize terminology and start calling it the India-Tibet border in all official communications. That should get the Chinese govt riled up 8) .


And Aksai-Hind

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 21 Jun 2020 15:27

And sell BrahMos to Vietnam, stat!


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 15:31

k prasad wrote:And sell BrahMos to Vietnam, stat!


They have Yakhnot.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 21 Jun 2020 15:45

Larry Walker wrote:
amar_p wrote:What was the Chinese plan exactly, what all went as per? Please educate us Sir


Indian KIA and PoW's without firing a single shot and then BIF would create enough internal pressure on GoI to align on Chinese terms.


Arrey yaar, kucch bhi ?

Kill some Indian soldiers and capture others : So the PLA was convinced that they can kill and capture soldiers of a battle hardened force with years of acclimatisation highly experienced in mountain warfare. Just like that ! After Dhoklam? They were not only ignorant and foolish, on top of it they never even consulted their Paki friends?

Without firing a shot: Again, PLA was convinced that NO Indian soldier would put up any resistance seeing his buddies being killed and captured and resist/counter attack either by firing his weapon or obliging his Chinese counterpart to do the same ? Though it ultimately did happen that no shots were fired, its too much of a risky assumption given there were no violent killing and capturing type confrontations for decades and you can't presume that about your enemy and think that your soldiers are not at risk while killing and capturing theirs. Doesn't stand.

BIF will create internal pressure: BIF is not the only voice in India, it does not represent the people's voice. If our soldiers did get killed and captured (irrespective of whether shots were fired or not), the whole nation will rise up in anger, and BIFs will either have to align to popular sentiment or go against it at their own risk - which in a matter like this, is harakiri.

GoI to align on Chinese terms: On top of all this, you are convinced GoI with all its nationalists will chumma and zimbly capitulate to these bewakoof BIFs demands despite having a strong majority mandate, dhoti shiver to not only the Chinese but also the BIFs, discard any retaliation proposed by IA & IAF, flush their morale down the ToI_let, and will have no other way but agree to whatever the Chinese demands may be...

OK, thats a whole load of BS. Reveals you neither understand the Chinese, nor IA, neither GOI nor India.

Arrey bhai, kya ho gaya hai logon ko ? :roll:
Last edited by amar_p on 21 Jun 2020 15:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 21 Jun 2020 15:52

nam wrote:
k prasad wrote:And sell BrahMos to Vietnam, stat!


They have Yakhnot.


Yes, but Brahmos is a far superior system, with far better guidance systems, not to mention Block III LACM capabilities. Plus, Vietnam has only 2 batteries, with 40 yakhonts in inventory. They can do with more.

More than any of this though, is the strategic aspect of an Indo-Vietnamese agreement for a highly capable system. It's the best way to send a robust message to a certain neighbour of ours.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 16:12

They just need a ASHM, which yakhnot is. They have no requirements of LACM.

There are other capabilities we can provided. We should work with PH, Vietnam & Indonesia to to sell them cheap AESA radars and SAM.

There was a report how Vietnam was actually interested in Akash NG development. I don't what happened to it.

The real force multiplier for these countries is XRSAM. We need to make it cheap and get it out asap. Along with that Astra BVR long range variants.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 21 Jun 2020 16:37

Vietnam has it's own internal chinese termites to deal with. They need to show some progress in that direction before one goes handing over weapons that are very few to come by to begin with. India isn't exactly a strong MIC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 21 Jun 2020 16:41

I have been following the discussion closely and I think it would be useful to see the Chinese side of this.

What are they up to in Ladakh? What are they fighting for? Why now?

[This became rather long so I'll add the rest in a second post] PART 1

My post goes a bit in the understanding China direction, but I'll tie it back to the current situation.

The basis for my understanding is that I studied Chinese and China quite some time back. I lived there for a bit and worked as an interpreter and consultant with Chinese coming to India for a few years. However the last time I had a proper visit to China was for the 20th anniversary of the Tiananmen Square massacre in 2009. My Chinese since then has gotten quite rusty because I had to learn another language, shifted to a completely different field, etc. Since then I have just kept myself sporadically informed and had some contact with China experts and Chinese scholars. I however have no idea about Indian defense beyond what I have read on BRF over the past 12 years and don't know much about weapon systems, etc. So please keep in mind that I'm no expert, I'm just an average guy trying to contribute my knowledge. Also what I write about the Chinese perspective might be offensive, please remember these are not my views, I just want to help you understand how the Chinese see us.

The best article on how the Chinese see the current situation is China’s Strategic Assessment of the Ladakh Clash by Yun Sun.

How the Chinese see us Indians

1. Inferior: There is absolutely no question about this. If anyone talks about how they consider India as the origin of Buddhism, or ancient civilisation, then it's garbage. China doesn't give a damn about all that. There might be a reluctant admission that India has an ancient history but for them that history ended with the arrival of the British. The cultural revolution also pretty much cut off the contact of China with their own heritage, so they don't value culture too highly. Japan makes them insecure, USA makes them very insecure but India is inferior and not really to be taken seriously. Also India is poor and dirty.

2. Arrogant: This is a very bad thing in Chinese eyes. Humility is a virtue, arrogance is a sin. Arrogance for them means that India does not know its place. This started from the time of Nehru who tried to pretend that he was a leader of Asia. All the stuff about the UN seat for China and all that, that was China's right, Nehru was doing his duty, that's all. That's why they like Pakistan. It is servile, flatters the leaders and knows its place. (This is not a new thing, even declassified cables from the 1950s show the Pakistanis were being chamchas and undermining India).

3. Tools of powerful countries The first time the Chinese had contact with Indians in modern times was with Sikh policemen in service of the British. This shapes their perception of Indians till today. I'll quote some academic research by Isabella Jackson about this:
[Popular histories] usually include a reference to the slang
term by which the Sikhs were known among Chinese, hongtou asan,
which has been translated variously as ‘red-headed monkeys’, ‘red-
headed rascals’, or ‘turbaned number threes’. All reflect their status
in Chinese eyes as the vicious lackeys of their British masters. Hongtou
is a reference to the red turbans that formed part of the police uniform
for the Sikhs, while asan is thought to derive from the Sikhs’ third-
class social position in Shanghai, or from a transliteration of either the
British exclamation ‘I say’ or ‘ah, sir’, as Shanghai’s Chinese addressed
the Sikhs. Popular racist perceptions of Sikhs [see them as] ‘black devils’ (heigui), the Indian troops of the
British in nineteenth-century China,
PDF of the article

All current social media discussion of the India-China conflict uses the term hongtou 紅頭 (red turbans) or asan 阿三 (number threes) or heigui 黑鬼 (black devils) to describe us. Most of their racist caricatures also show the Indian Army as composed of Sikhs. Indians oppressed the Chinese for the British, later they served the interest of the Soviets and now they want to serve the interests of the USA. They thought the entire idea of NAM was a self-serving lie by Nehru to fool Asian countries while serving the interests of white masters. That's pretty much what they think of India today. "Strategic autonomy" for them is again a fake front that India puts up (in fear of China) while it secretly serves the interests of the USA against China.

4. Duplicitous They have always thought of Indians in this way, partly self-projection. Partly because they see the adversary in their own image. The idea of honor is completely alien to Chinese thought. Which means all this talk of India about honor or keeping its word must be a lie. Which means they are hiding something else. Sometimes, China is smart enough to see through India (and see whatever they wanted to see). Being honest is not something anyone places too much value on. In China it is every man for himself. They wouldn't think twice about cheating anyone and corruption (also within the PLA) is expected and only punished as part of a package deal, if someone also commits another crime like disloyalty to the party.

5. Divided Since we are a democracy, all our internal differences are all out there for the entire world to see. The Chinese differences are not visible, not even to the Chinese themselves. So they can comment about Racism in USA without bothering to give a second thought to their prison camps (which anyway only have the second class Uyghurs). They see India divided between rich and poor, castes and naturally all sorts of political parties.

These are all the comfortable opinions China holds but there are some things that make them uneasy or slightly challenge their picture of India. The space programme makes them very insecure (not just them actually). The nuclear programme makes them angry, India has no right to do such things. The CCP also fears to some extent that a successful democracy might give the people the wrong ideas. Hong Kong is an ideological threat. Taiwan too, that's why they love sharing videos of fist-fights in the Taiwanese Parliament. The Indian IT thing made them uncomfortable earlier but they then decided Indians were good at doing stupid repetitive stuff.

How the Chinese see their neighbours
Simply put as vassals. There is a periphery which needs to be periodically pacified. China is the centre of the world, if any of the small countries at its periphery gets uppity then it must periodically be taught a lesson. A peaceful periphery is especially important when the Kingdom is facing challenges. Xinjiang quite literally means "new frontier". Tibet is also part of the same strategy. Having a frontier area outside the main heartland is part of the Chinese tradition (also inner Mongolia, outer Mongolia is another story). These regions usually faced benign neglect and occasional severe repression and they were just kept around as an insulation of the heartland, extracting resources and all was secondary. So we have the heartland, directly ruled barbarians (Tibet, Xinjiang), and tributaries (Laos, Mongolia but also uppity ones like Vietnam) outside that. The tributaries should send gifts to the emperor and recognise his authority and they'll be left alone.

See concluding Part 2 in a later post

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 21 Jun 2020 16:51

Interesting stuff RaviB, confirms many of my thoughts though I've never been to China nor worked directly with them.

Looking fwd to Part 2.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vadivel » 21 Jun 2020 16:54

Excellent post Ravi-ji looking forward for POst 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 21 Jun 2020 16:55

https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/china-g ... ssion=true

Biggest ever proof that Gandhi clan and Congressiyas are Chinese CPC agents in India .... And they have the gall to call Modi anti-national !!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 21 Jun 2020 16:57

Amar_P ji - the point was that I was speculating on Chinese intent - I am not commenting that India would have followed that script.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 21 Jun 2020 17:02

RaviB wrote:I have been following the discussion closely and I think it would be useful to see the Chinese side of this.

What are they up to in Ladakh? What are they fighting for? Why now?

[This became rather long so I'll add the rest in a second post] PART 1

My post goes a bit in the understanding China direction, but I'll tie it back to the current situation.

Sir your are spot on. Your insight is perfect.

Mods: this should be required reading, and should be pinned to the main China thread. Thank you!

Looking forward to Part 2.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 17:05

This from the Week journo.

Reports of 40 J10 moving in to Skardu.
https://twitter.com/pradiprsagar/status/1274639259660517376

I will take with a pinch of salt, unless confirmed by other reports. However as I always felt, the only way Chinis can do away the disadvantages in Tibet while fighting us is by moving their forces(Specially armor formation) in to Pak and air attacks through Burma.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 21 Jun 2020 17:17

Larry Walker wrote:Amar_P ji - the point was that I was speculating on Chinese intent - I am not commenting that India would have followed that script.


Larry ji, even in that case, I'm not sure the Chinese misunderstand us so much. I think problem is in their attitude basically.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 21 Jun 2020 17:21

https://twitter.com/Nrg8000/status/1274649983006855169
Nathan Ruser
@Nrg8000
Earlier I drew attention to 19 Chinese positions on Pangong-tso's Finger 4 ridgeline (line between Ind & Chn territory), I want to highlight (in 3D!) some pilboxes that have been constructed down a 330m path into the Indian side of that ridgeline.

He did not point out the positions further up the ridge (F-3/4), I think they have a visual on the ITBP base also.
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby GopiD » 21 Jun 2020 17:25

RaviB wrote:I have been following the discussion closely and I think it would be useful to see the Chinese side of this.

What are they up to in Ladakh? What are they fighting for? Why now?

[This became rather long so I'll add the rest in a second post] PART 1


Fantastic writeup on Chinese psyche. Thanks and please keep up the good work Ravi.
Cheers

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 17:29

So the Chinis have created pillbox below the Finger 4 ridge line..

The only reason I can think that we are not on the ridge... is the Chinis are going to receive artillery or LGB on those heights.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 17:36

GoI may not have been good with communication, but our TV reporters have been totally driving the narrative, especially on international media.

The satellite images have been collaborating what our news media has been saying.

I am reading in UK daily mail, how "63 soldiers have died", with 20 being Indian. The Chinese having blocked twitter is feeling the pinch. They are not able to counter the Indian media narrative, so GT & Chini MFA Spokesperson have been desperately trying to drive the narrative on twitter, along with the 50 cent army.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 21 Jun 2020 17:37

Air Force Chief says they have detected unusual movement of Chinese Air Force, assures that strategy put in place to respond
https://www.opindia.com/2020/06/air-for ... o-respond/

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2020 17:38

I spent a fair bit of time with both PRC and Taiwanese folks online and IRL, and I echo Ravi's write-up. It is spot on.

Indian's are seen as inferior, caste-ridden, primitive, poor people.

The fact that we are challenging them is simply intolerable for their pysche.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2020 17:40

nam wrote:This from the Week journo.

Reports of 40 J10 moving in to Skardu.
https://twitter.com/pradiprsagar/status/1274639259660517376

I will take with a pinch of salt, unless confirmed by other reports. However as I always felt, the only way Chinis can do away the disadvantages in Tibet while fighting us is by moving their forces(Specially armor formation) in to Pak and air attacks through Burma.


This is a very big deal if correct. We are facing a 2 front-scenario.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 21 Jun 2020 17:41

nam wrote:This from the Week journo.

Reports of 40 J10 moving in to Skardu.
https://twitter.com/pradiprsagar/status/1274639259660517376

I will take with a pinch of salt, unless confirmed by other reports. However as I always felt, the only way Chinis can do away the disadvantages in Tibet while fighting us is by moving their forces(Specially armor formation) in to Pak and air attacks through Burma.


I wonder if just moving J10 planes is enough. What about support & maintenance crew, spares, ? Training needed to operate in a specific theatre, Interaction with ATC, hostile Indian SAM and AA coverage they have never faced ? Can they get the required Chinese AWACS support while operating from Skardu?

Would be very interesting if Air Warfare gurus can comment.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 21 Jun 2020 17:42

Finger 3 and finger 4 ridge ridge merge into a single ridge line which they have also appear to have occupied, so I would not be surprised if they have created pillboxes below F3/4 ridge line too.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 17:43

A war with Pak may not involve China, but a war with China WILL be a two front war.

We will have to wait for confirmed news about Skardu. If it is true, it cannot be hidden.
Last edited by nam on 21 Jun 2020 17:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Karan M » 21 Jun 2020 17:46

They would of course move with their attendant logistics and likely a few transports and AEW&CS as well. 40 aircraft is around 2 squadrons. Anyone with a map software installed who can confirm?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 17:50

amar_p wrote:I wonder if just moving J10 planes is enough. What about support & maintenance crew, spares, ? Training needed to operate in a specific theatre, Interaction with ATC, hostile Indian SAM and AA coverage they have never faced ? Can they get the required Chinese AWACS support while operating from Skardu?

Would be very interesting if Air Warfare gurus can comment.


It is not about the initial numbers. PLAAF can augment in to PAF in large numbers. Unlike Tibet there is no restriction in Pak.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 21 Jun 2020 17:51

Sanju wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@KDRtweets:

https://twitter.com/KDRtweets/status/12 ... 11936?s=20


Just to add to that, the Fauji (ret) gives an example of how in 10 feet of snow in -30C temp, he had fired once and he was asked to get the bullet back. He spent the night in the snow looking for the bullet. This was how things were dealt with in the Congress times.


Has any news outlet investigated this any further or fielded question to the leaders of previous gov't in this regards?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 21 Jun 2020 17:57

India should explicitly and publicly warn Pakistan that allowing the use of its territory or assets by Chinese forces will be automatically considered as an act of war and will invite preempitive punitive action.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 21 Jun 2020 17:59

Karan M wrote:This is a very big deal if correct. We are facing a 2 front-scenario.


In a way it is good - gives.you perfect immediate reason to retake GB and PoK. Maybe Pakis would be secretly happy to loose GB and PoK - as it has now become almost untenable for them to hold back daily IA fire-assaults and when India starts a campaign to retake GB and PoK, without Chinese, the Pakistani stand no chance. Here they will get to fight India under larger Chinese umbrella - they cannot ask for anything better. Once China is involved and GB-PoK is lost - it will put Pakistan army in pole position - as it will open the Chinese benevolence tap like never before since the Chinese will get more paranoid of teaching India a final lesson - and at the same time removes the raison-de'itre for IA's daily fire-assaults. Plus Paki awam will go in overdrive mode to regain lost honor and fauj will be the god in Pakistan.
Last edited by Larry Walker on 21 Jun 2020 18:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 21 Jun 2020 18:00

Karan M wrote:They would of course move with their attendant logistics and likely a few transports and AEW&CS as well. 40 aircraft is around 2 squadrons. Anyone with a map software installed who can confirm?


With JF17 & ZDK, Chinis will already have some basic support of AWACS and weapons used by JF17.

Not to mention presence of Chini technicians, who would be helping PAF.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 21 Jun 2020 18:04

amar_p wrote:India should explicitly and publicly warn Pakistan that allowing the use of its territory or assets by Chinese forces will be automatically considered as an act of war and will invite preempitive punitive action.


Pakis are trying to be treacherous smart as they are. By restricting PLA to PoK and GB bases - they can claim that they are not directly involved as China has done a deal with so-called 'Azad JnK' government in Skardu. Just my guess - Helps tremendously to deflect international pressure since Pakistan proper is not directly involved.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VikramS » 21 Jun 2020 18:04

That was a wonderful post Ravi. Looking forward to the part/2.

It’s also clear that India has to treat the PA as an extension of the PLA; in fact they may have to do the work in the trenches.

Strategic Independence may be tough right now for India to continue.

I am confident that IA will hold its ground. The concern is that there may be losses of aircraft or visible missile attacks which by used by the Chinese camp in India to talk up Chinese propaganda and weaken resolve.

I feel that GoI should send clear signals to the Chinese camp within India that the coercive powers of the state have yet to be deployed.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 21 Jun 2020 18:10

If PAK gets involved, Uknil will get involved.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 21 Jun 2020 18:15

amar_p wrote:If PAK gets involved, Uknil will get involved.

Unkil won't be amused if there is evidence of Paki collaboration with Chinese against India, but the battle will be ours to fight.

I think if any offensive flight takes off from Skardu, it will be knocked out on the border. Our SAM batteries are always awaiting. If they get past and hit us, then as far as we can tell they are Paki aircraft, so we will be at war with Pakis, make no bones about it. It will be denial of Paki airspace all over again - and presumably knocking out their navy too which should take care of them while we attend to the Chinese.

All, please read Shiv Aroor's piece on the Galwan incident, seems credible to me.


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