India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[AdityaM]

While our borders are well secured with China, there is one border that is all open.
Can the Chinese use Nepal to arrive at the Hindi heartland where there are no defences?
Assuming that the current Nepal govt is willing to bend even more

[pankajs]

6. Again, Tibet cannot be won by capturing Lhasa but leaving the rest of Tibet to China. As basic as that.

Both India and China are big and powerful enough that they will not let their territory be captured for a long time and will do whatever it takes to get it back. But a temporary loss of important territory in both countries has potential to trigger major political and social upheaval which may either be detrimental or beneficial - but no way to predict. This upheaval is what these countries will be afraid of and not some win or losses on some fronts. So capability to threaten this upheaval is the key here.

My targets will cause enough upheaval in China, its military and the CCP. Plus those targets are within 150 km of out DBO/Depsang plain base.

[Venkarl]

Quick OSINT question, What the heck is this (near Sikkim tri-junction area) and any idea when it was built? Looks like permanent military residence that can house 1000's.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/27%C2 ... 88.9364444
One cant be but impressed with the scale of civil engineering they have undertaken in the area, looking at the number of buildings in the base and else where one would not think this is in the a$$ end of Tibet.

these people have crawled in like ants all over.

[yensoy]

Quick OSINT question, What the heck is this (near Sikkim tri-junction area) and any idea when it was built? Looks like permanent military residence that can house 1000's.
https://www.google.com/maps/place/27%C2 ... 88.9364444

Per GE, Between Oct-2012 (Structure being raised but no roof) and Oct-2013 (Roof in place)

Per Wikimapia: Lingma (Upper Yadong)
Township (chin.: Shang Yadong xiang) in Yadong county, Xigazê prefecture. Administrative compound.
Coordinates: 27°31'17"N 88°58'19"E

It does look military to me as well, but it could very well be a school + housing for locals etc. Chinese like to gentrify locals for multiple reasons including to intermingle their dwellings with han people, and keep close surveillance on them as a result.

[GopiD]

Ramana Saar,

Their Galwan movement is, in all likelihood, the southern arm of a pincer manoeuvre.
The northern arm of the pincer is the armour backed forces through Depsang (south of DBO).
The objective of the Great Superior Han Army appears to be slicing off the area south of DBO, which I had posted in an earlier thread.

See the advantage of a military background!!! Thanks for your reply. Sorry, your earlier post was drowned out in the noise.
another Moglian Yak herder also came to same conclusion that this was beginning of an attack on to Leh. The timing, the terrain. the special forces, the trucks all show there was a plan that got foiled.

Thanks. Please be more engaged here.

Seems like the predictions of Gurus are turning oit to be true. Check where the COAS is visiting tomorrow

BREAKING NEWS:

Amidst tension, Army Chief will visit Leh on 23rd evening.

@ 1700 hrs at Hall Of Fame outside Leh airport.

Will visit Army bases to see preparedness.

Likely to continue his visit to Kashmir on 24th.

Army Chief was in Leh on 22May.
IAF Chief on 17June.

https://twitter.com/ashishsinghnews/sta ... 60352?s=21

[GopiD]

U.S. Intel: China Ordered Attack on Indian Troops in Galwan River Valley

Gen. Zhao Zonqi, head of the Western Theater Command and among the few combat veterans still serving in the People's Liberation Army, approved the operation along the contested border region of northern India and southwestern China, a source familiar with the assessment says on the condition of anonymity.

The assessment from U.S. intelligence contradicts China’s timeline of the bloody skirmish in the contested border region last week.
By Paul D. Shinkman Senior Writer, National Security •

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-repor ... ssion=true

[Bharadwaj]

http://www.usnews.com/news/world-report ... ver-valley

Analysts say it's clear the incident did not pan out as China intended, not in the least because its state media outlets have all but erased the incident from their pages in the week since it took place. The U.S. believes Zhao, the Chinese general who commanded the forces involved, held a memorial service for the PLA soldiers who died in the incident – an occasion that would normally attract some form of state-sponsored publicity. Instead, Chinese censors have since cracked down on social media posts about the incident, including ones that mention "defeat" and "humiliation" when describing the dead or injured Chinese troops

So it was as we knew a complete and total victory for our Heros in uniform.

[salaam]

Have a look at the wiki page:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2020_Chin ... skirmishes

[pankajs]

^^
Guys you have missed a critical portion of the report.

Gen. Zhao Zonqi, head of the Western Theater Command and among the few combat veterans still serving in the People's Liberation Army, approved the operation along the contested border region of northern India and southwestern China, a source familiar with the assessment says on the condition of anonymity. Zhao, who has overseen prior standoffs with India, has previously expressed concerns that China must not appear weak to avoid exploitation by the United States and its allies, including in New Delhi, the source says, and saw the faceoff last week as a way to "teach India a lesson."

1. Avoid looking weak. Expected. As stated before, it has to up the facade of unbeatable strength to intimidate its SCS neighbors into submission lest they develop spine.

2. The outcome at Dolam/Doklam still hurts, therefore, India has to be taught a lesson.

This makes the current contest very interesting and dangerous. After Dolam, China cannot afford another defeat or stalemate. The incentive to plough ahead even with a unfavorable situation is high.

OTOH, the chances of a stalemate or worse a loss and its impact on the morale of home troops/public, the pressure it creates on CCP/PLA, the oxygen it provides to opposite parties in the CSC neighborhood makes it very risky.

Unless China has a secret weapon/plan that is a total surprise to IA/India but even then it will be a rough time facing a defensive IA knows its terrain.

[SBajwa]

Missiles and Apache helicopters deployed against PLA

[yensoy]

^^^^ I think the General's first priority is to teach his men, rather than ours, a lesson. A lesson in drawing blood. If he is the only senior military man with combat experience, what does it say about the preparedness of the whole military? He knows it only too acutely. He wants to coach, train and mentally prepare his men for war and this was supposed to be a low risk high reward training in the battlefield which would serve 3 purposes (i) train his men in real warfare (ii) show India its place in the scheme of things and (iii) ensure his elevation to higher offices.

Our men from 16 Bihar have shown that he picked the wrong people to take a panga with, and in fact I am looking forward to more such thrashings in the coming days (with fewer casualties on our side of course). It is the unbridled ego and ambition of 2 guys - eleven and zhao which has led to this and unwinding it should not be based on allowing them to save face.

[neeraj]

http://www.usnews.com/news/world-report ... ver-valley

Analysts say it's clear the incident did not pan out as China intended, not in the least because its state media outlets have all but erased the incident from their pages in the week since it took place. The U.S. believes Zhao, the Chinese general who commanded the forces involved, held a memorial service for the PLA soldiers who died in the incident – an occasion that would normally attract some form of state-sponsored publicity. Instead, Chinese censors have since cracked down on social media posts about the incident, including ones that mention "defeat" and "humiliation" when describing the dead or injured Chinese troops

So it was as we knew a complete and total victory for our Heros in uniform.

For all the vermin in India who cry that we have lost - this article from US (and hence gold plated) is a tight Thappad to them. Please share far and wide.

[suryag]

Of course a great thappad to the CCP am however, still saddened by the loss and frankly my anger at being attacked so cowardly hasnt subsided.

[khan]

They will try something for sure. They just need to get lucky once, our side has to be successful 100% of the time.

[ldev]

^^
Guys you have missed a critical portion of the report.

Gen. Zhao Zonqi, head of the Western Theater Command and among the few combat veterans still serving in the People's Liberation Army, approved the operation along the contested border region of northern India and southwestern China, a source familiar with the assessment says on the condition of anonymity. Zhao, who has overseen prior standoffs with India, has previously expressed concerns that China must not appear weak to avoid exploitation by the United States and its allies, including in New Delhi, the source says, and saw the faceoff last week as a way to "teach India a lesson."

and also this part where it is clear that Xi Jingping would have been aware of the plan. So this was an operation approved by all levels of the PLA hierarchy and political leadership all the way to Xi Jingping. It was not some local hothead wanting his day of glory.

It remains unclear the extent to which Chinese President Xi Jinping was involved in the decisions that led to last week's bloody encounter, though analysts familiar with Chinese military decision making say he would have almost certainly known about the orders.

[ramana]

Off course it's approved by Eleven.

Also Zonqi rhymes with Donkey
If you say it fast.

[ldev]

Also Zonqi rhymes with Donkey
If you say it fast.

[SriKumar]

Well, in case people have not heard of the world-famous zonkey....here is a specimen....
https://www.zonkey.co.uk/about/zonkey/# ... e%E2%80%9D.

[Roop]

CCP and PLA will open the Indian front to check their military readiness for a greater conflict in SCS

Bluntly put, this is complete gibberish! What the hell does mountain warfare against India have to do with naval warfare against the US?

[Larry Walker]

^^^^ I think the General's first priority is to teach his men, rather than ours, a lesson. A lesson in drawing blood. If he is the only senior military man with combat experience, what does it say about the preparedness of the whole military? He knows it only too acutely. He wants to coach, train and mentally prepare his men for war and this was supposed to be a low risk high reward training in the battlefield which would serve 3 purposes (i) train his men in real warfare (ii) show India its place in the scheme of things and (iii) ensure his elevation to higher offices.

Our men from 16 Bihar have shown that he picked the wrong people to take a panga with, and in fact I am looking forward to more such thrashings in the coming days (with fewer casualties on our side of course). It is the unbridled ego and ambition of 2 guys - eleven and zhao which has led to this and unwinding it should not be based on allowing them to save face.

There is a limit to how much hardware our men can defend against. This is what bother me - in combined arms offensive Chinese have a huge lead in terms of deploying hardware and replenishing their supplies.

[khan]

I sense some arrogance here among our membership. I would suggest caution, be paranoid and hoshiyaar.

All this deployment they did wasn’t about one little mountain ledge in Galwan (which they couldn’t hold on to even if their half-baked “plan” succeeded) - there is something bigger going on here.

[Larry Walker]

Also, earlier on this forum we were ruing the fact that our S-400's are not yet delivered - and how these could be game changers. Now from my limited knowledge I know that Chinese have a huge inventory if S-300 and it's clones - so they can easily deploy few around Skardu and Hotan and in Depsang. S300 may not be equal to S400 against fighter and cruise targets, but even if it is 90% effective then we have a huge problem on our hands.

[Sidhant]

They will try something for sure. They just need to get lucky once, our side has to be successful 100% of the time.

Shouldn’t it be the other way round Sirji... Afterall they are the ones masquerading as the next suppa powa. Also why put such constraints on our government and forces, in these kind of geopolitical games, wins and losses are common, as long as the loss is not permanent and a befitting reply is given, it should be alright to lose some and gain some.

[neeraj]

Purely man for man we outnumber with better training. The terrain is not favorable to whatever big toys they have and we have toys of our own. It is going to be very tough for chinese to extract a victory out of this.

[AdityaM]

The major got into a verbal battle on twitter and got abusive. Now it turns out that he is a captain.

https://twitter.com/navrajgrewal12/stat ... 43712?s=12

Missiles and Apache helicopters deployed against PLA

[Sidhant]

There is a limit to how much hardware our men can defend against. This is what bother me - in combined arms offensive Chinese have a huge lead in terms of deploying hardware and replenishing their supplies.

Larry ji... Isn’t there a simple military rule that attacking forces need to be atleast 3X superior and depending on the terrain and adversary, even more. So as it is, they will have to replenish their men and material atleast 3 times our rate, how much higher can they go? And why won’t we be able to increase our numbers similarly? Except for airplanes we should be easily able to ramp up our artillery, mbrls, tanks and other heavy weaponry. In desperate times why would our domestic weaponry production won’t be ramped up or why would the forces won’t use Desi solutions even if they are not gold plated.

[AdityaM]

Visited DFI for the first time since nothing much of substance is posted here

And a poster there claims this

There has been another incident, this time around the depsang plains. You might hear about it in a week or so
Sizeable chinese casualties

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/i ... st-1702423

[SBajwa]

CCP and PLA will open the Indian front to check their military readiness for a greater conflict in SCS

Bluntly put, this is complete gibberish! What the hell does mountain warfare against India have to do with naval warfare against the US?

may be PLA is planning to deploy submarines and destroyers on pangong lake.

[Larry Walker]

Gaurav Arya is ok for some tu-tu-main-main with low IQ Pakis but not a serious analyst - no point or value add quoting him.

[Larry Walker]

There is a limit to how much hardware our men can defend against. This is what bother me - in combined arms offensive Chinese have a huge lead in terms of deploying hardware and replenishing their supplies.

Larry ji... Isn’t there a simple military rule that attacking forces need to be atleast 3X superior and depending on the terrain and adversary, even more. So as it is, they will have to replenish their men and material atleast 3 times our rate, how much higher can they go? And why won’t we be able to increase our numbers similarly? Except for airplanes we should be easily able to ramp up our artillery, mbrls, tanks and other heavy weaponry. In desperate times why would our domestic weaponry production won’t be ramped up or why would the forces won’t use Desi solutions even if they are not gold plated.

Siddhant ji - my limited understanding of the situation is that the establishment is trying to fight Chinese in the way we prepare for Pakis. Lineup equivalent or superior hardware, even if in limited numbers and once in next few days when the Pakis have expended their limited ammo and weapons - they raise the white flag. I am sure that if Pakis had some assured supplies - they would put up a much harder fight then what they currently can. With the Chinese, it's the ability to shoot same or higher volume of fire on day-5 and then on day-10 is what will determine the outcome. Throwing everything and kitchen sink in first 72 hours and then going into holding fight will be be detrimental as the Chinese will prevail by the sheer mass of their hardware in next 1 or 2 weeks.

[Ankit Desai]

Good read:

India deploys specialised mountain forces to check China’s LAC transgressions

India has deployed its specialised high altitude warfare forces along the 3,488 km Line of Actual Control (LAC) to repel any transgression by the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) in either western, middle or eastern sectors.

Top government sources confirmed that Indian Army has been directed to safeguard the LAC from any cross-border aggression by the PLA, which is showing hostile intent by amassing troops in a bid to cow down the Narendra Modi government.

It is understood that specialised forces trained over the past decades for fighting on the northern front have been pushed up to the frontier to impose military costs if the red flag goes up. Unlike the PLA which moves in infantry combat vehicles and paved metalled roads to move, the Indian mountain troops are trained in guerrilla warfare and fighting in high altitude as shown by them in Kargil War.

"The art of mountain fighting is the toughest as the cost of human casualties is 10 to each troop of the adversary sitting on a height. The troops from Uttarakhand, Ladakh, Gorkha, Arunachal and Sikkim have adapted to the rarefied heights over centuries and hence their capability of fighting is close quarter combats is without match. The artillery and the missiles have to have pin-pointed accuracy or else they miss the mountain target by miles,” said a former Indian Army chief.

The other thing that works for the army is that the Tibetan plateau is flat on the Chinese side while the Indian side starts from K2 peak in Karakoram, to Nanda Devi in Uttarakhand, to Kanchenjung in Sikkim and Namche Barwa across Arunachal Pradesh border. “In mountains, it is not only difficult to capture territory but more difficult to hold it,” a China expert with South Block said.

While India has noted with appreciation the voices coming out in its support from the Trump administration, including the President himself, the mood in Delhi is more like “atmanirbhar (self-reliant) Bharat” with no intent of asking anyone for military or diplomatic support. “I have my battalions lined up with armoured personnel carriers and artillery. India will not instigate or precipitate any skirmish but will reply to any transgression. The days of LAC nibbling are over. This is a battle of nerves and India is prepared to wait, come snow come sunshine,” said a senior minister.

The Modi government is very unhappy that the Chinese President Xi Jinping broke all the “peace and tranquility” promises by not reining his favourite PLA western theatre commander Gen Zhao Zongqi, who is insistent on imposing 1960 eastern Ladakh map based on exaggerated territorial claims on India. This map where China claims territory upto Kongka La was unveiled by then Chinese premier Chou En Lai.

Incidentally, Chou En Lai, the premier during 1962 conflict, had close links with President Xi Jinping’s family and Foreign Minister Wang Yi’s wife is the daughter of secretary of the former premier. External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar father K Subrahmanyam was involved in India’s war effort as an officer in the Defence Ministry.

It was only to set aside these historical baggage that Prime Minister Narendra Modi had initiated the Wuhan and Chennai understandings so that the two leaders could promote the bilateral relations post-Doklam. It is quite evident that President Xi had no such plans and has used tensions in East Ladakh to divert global attention from failure of China to alert the world about coronavirus. In the same way, another paramount leader used the 1962 conflict to deflect attention from the famine, due to failure of Great Leap Forward movement, in which millions of Chinese died.

-Ankit

[Larry Walker]

One RMA kind of change that we need to do is to bring purchase and manufacturing of defense items under some national security act - which should have very harsh punishments for any corruption that is proven in SC. This will ensure that our national security and dignity is not bargained for some dollars or cosy retirement in a first world country.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

Surely worth investigating. But this Navraj Grewal looks a fishy character too. Too obsessed with Sikh history at cost of everything else. JNU stamped.

Check out his FB ---> https://www.facebook.com/soulngary

Worth checking out before listening to him.

The major got into a verbal battle on twitter and got abusive. Now it turns out that he is a captain.

https://twitter.com/navrajgrewal12/stat ... 43712?s=12

Missiles and Apache helicopters deployed against PLA

[Manish_Sharma]

We will goto war as things are as on date. Beware it will cost us.

Rajnath going to Russia seems like a big sign, that war is inevitable.

We need some critical spares and probably S400 before schedule.

[Ankit Desai]

Now Abhijit iyer on TV states that we struck at their dam and the blocked waters are flowing again.
Where is the truth of Galwan?

https://twitter.com/mehharshil/status/1 ... 50380?s=21

Limited point regarding Galwan river. Not posting whole article, good read, analysis by India Army veteran who also worked at MI, Vinayak Bhat (@rajfortyseven)

How China channelled Galwan river to claim territory

-Ankit

[ramana]

I think someone knowledgeable and experienced in BRF may consider preparing a few maps marking important passes and roads in Ladakh... That will be helpful for us to understand the overall picture...

NO.

[Cyrano]

No wonder China is claiming the whole of Galwan river & valley are theirs !
Bears out what Ramana said.

[Rony]

Guys, Check this out

Chinese military forum. In Chinese. Google translate to English. If any one wants to understand what they are thinking about the current situation.

Indian = Asan (derogatory term). The general attitude is contempt of Indians and ridicule. Deny Indian statehood and identity. Show Indians as weak but arrogant who do not know their place. RaviB was spot on with this analysis of chinese attitude towards Indians.

Below are some the India related threads. These are automatic translations

The possibility of going to war is rising! ! !
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629644-1-1.html

India must fight, but not now
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629636-1-1.html

What I think is, will we fight back if India retaliates ?
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629707-1-1.html

India says British are slaves of India, talk about Indian national character
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629634-1-1.html

It can be believed that the current Indian ruling authorities are basically extremely chaotic after the 615 World War
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629716-1-1.html


There are many threads like this. And also whole lot of information on other chinese defense things.

[ramana]

Hari Nair,
More I think about it:
"Galwan was 2020 Assal Uttar. Just like then, we don't have follow-on forces to push the advantage.

And the PLA request for help to fish their soldiers from the cold river paused us.

Basically 16 Bihar in that night rampage kheemafied the Chinese special forces and thwarted their attack plans. Just like 4th Mtn Div and 2nd Indep Armd Brigade blunted the Pak attack force in September 1965."

Let's see. Even in 1965, it took a while to realize the significance of Assal Uttar. We did not release 3rd Cavalry to join the 1St Armd Drive to Chawinda.

If this is right PLA has to do something to recover H&D of their Rapid Reaction Force or Eagle forces set up after 1979 Vietnam debacle and 1991 Desert Storm.

[SBajwa]

Gaurav Arya is ok for some tu-tu-main-main with low IQ Pakis but not a serious analyst - no point or value add quoting him.

Not just OK! he seriously rebutts Bakis and others. check below.