India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Locked
schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1773
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by schinnas »

Posting it in full. Pls dont quote all in replies!

Ladakh and the Pakistan connect - Lt Gen (Retd.) Syed Ata Hasnain.

"Geographically, there is no region better suited for China-Pakistan military collusion than Ladakh"

https://www.newindianexpress.com/opinio ... 60116.html
From the very active western front in J&K with high-intensity anti-terrorist operations in the hinterland and the Line of Control (LoC), the security focus of the nation has shifted to Ladakh and the China-related front. We have been pursuing a policy of stabilising our relationship with China over the last many years with reasonable results. The economic benefits to both nations appeared a rational way forward although the trade relationship has been largely skewed in favour of China.

Doklam 2017 put a halt to the process of stabilisation temporarily but the same was revived through the informal summits at Wuhan and Mahabalipuram in 2018-19. Military stand-offs along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) have also been rife for some years, and the hot and cold in the relationship with China had come to be accepted as something both nations could yet live with. In May 2020, all this seems to have changed with a serious military stand-off at the LAC in Ladakh, leading to a higher level of military readiness all along the northern and eastern borders.

The recent incident in the Galwan Valley involving a major fracas between Indian and PLA troops led to bloodshed on both sides for the first time in 45 years. As tempers cool and heavy deployments continue, it is increasingly evident that besides just the Chinese connection to the Ladakh face-off, there is a serious Pakistan connect too. An understanding of this will assist in further appreciation of the situation in Ladakh.
There is no region better suited for Sino-Pak military collusion than Ladakh. Coordinated military operations from both can converge and this can seriously threaten India’s security in this area. On the political front, India’s declaration of intent to secure the areas of J&K under the occupation of Pakistan appears to have caused major concern in Islamabad.

The latter has been able to convince China of the potential Indian threat to their mutual interests in PoK and Gilgit Baltistan (GB), which are primarily about the China-Pakistan Economic Corridor (CPEC), a reasonably fragile communication artery leading from Xinjiang in China to the Indian Ocean port of Gwadar in Pakistan, along with connected projects. India’s greater political confidence in dealing with the J&K issue, as demonstrated by the decision to abrogate Article 370 in August 2019, is also leading to this consternation in the Sino-Pakistan sphere. Left at that, it is probably jointly appreciated by both that it will help boost Indian strategic confidence.

The strengthening Indo-US strategic partnership is also considered as a phenomenon that aids a scaled-up Indian confidence. Given the altered international strategic environment with the onset of the current pandemic, China views this as an opportunity to aggressively set the narrative for its domination in the post-pandemic world order. Intimidation and coercion of India are aimed at denting its strategic confidence, cautioning it in relation to its emerging partnerships with the US and its allies, and curtailing its ambitions that impinge on China’s interests. The latter primarily relates to the GB region.

Pakistan’s potential role in trying to militarily intimidate India in Ladakh can be better understood from the military geography. Three fronts exist here: Kargil (with Pakistan), East Ladakh (with China) and the central Karakoram-Siachen-Shyok (KSS) area with Pakistan ranged against Siachen and China against the Karakoram. Some interest seems to have been generated in Pakistani strategic circles about the details of the military geography of the KSS area.

A deep study would suggest collusive interest in the Shyok Valley north of the Ladakh range to achieve three strategic gains. First is the intent to wrest control of Siachen, a perennial source of fresh water for the water-starved nation. Second is the broadening of the border with China with better terrain to facilitate communication. Third is the potential of opening another artery akin to the CPEC but in more stable terrain conditions, substantially adding to China’s dependence on Pakistan.

All the above remain dreams for projection and intimidation to counter India’s strategic confidence. Both China and Pakistan have one quality in common in their war-fighting doctrines: the consistent employment of information warfare. This is what India should expect in considerable load in the near future. I consider the ongoing attempt at ‘salami slicing’ by China in Ladakh as an experiment to assess how far India will go in its response strategy. It is imperative that this attempted bullying must be met squarely, even though ramping up deployment all along the northern and eastern borders is a highly expensive exercise, especially in Covid-19 times.

As a precursor to any intimate collusion in Ladakh, Pakistan may well have offered China the facilitation of a dual front; enhanced activities at the LoC and hinterland Kashmir would form part of this. India appears to have handled this well with successful operations paying good dividends. However symbolic, it is good to see rapid decision-making in the domain of military acquisition in the purchase of additional combat aircraft for the IAF. The same alacrity must be displayed in further ramping up of our capability and infrastructure. The Navy too must receive a higher budget as it is anticipated that stand-offs in the future would extend to the maritime domain. Indian diplomacy too must shut no doors.

We must continue to engage with China even as we attempt to hurt it economically to the extent we can. The Indian approach must adopt a position of strength with a clear projection that in localised border conflicts, it will be advantage India. A cooperative approach with the US and its allies must continue even as we retain strategic autonomy. The clear message which must emanate from New Delhi is that India is no pushover and it will go to any extent to secure its interests.
Last edited by schinnas on 23 Jun 2020 12:51, edited 1 time in total.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9373
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Hari Seldon »

yensoy wrote:This is exactly the kind of decision Xi would face if he was sitting in a Macau casino. Swallow the losses or double the bet. And Xi didn't get to his position by taking the low risk way out, he is an inveterate gambler who keeps going for the bigger prize. As Nair sir said, hope this doesn't escalate but it looks like it will.
As Napolean once remarked of his generals: They're Good. But are they lucky?

CCP selects someone who has had a great run of luck on his side if so many of his gambles paid off. However by the law of averages, that's about to run out, or so I hope.
habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6919
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by habal »

Along with jawans posted at Ladakh, can the Indian MoD defence procurement babus be also posted in ladakh and pangong etc and be forced to indulge in one bout of wrestling and club fighting and rock throwing.

Can also be done on rotational basis.

this may well turn out to be win-win solution from this crisis
schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1773
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by schinnas »

Gen Hasnain suggests two main strategic objective of Cheen + Pakis, at least the way I interpret it.

1. Defensive. Safeguard PoK and GB from India. Why that is important? - Warm water access for China to Arabian Sea and land connectivity between China and Pak (CPEC is just a part of this). Equally important would be to cut off India from Afghanistan and Central Asian republics (regardless of how difficult the terrain is - with advance of technology, Cheen would be confident of the possibility of motorable road with huge tunnels in the near future, expense no bar).

2. Aggressive. Cut off Ladakh from India! Remember that it was the first of Mao's "five fingers". With a Buddhist population with strong cultural and linguistic ties to Tibet, Ladakh is almost as important to China as Arunachal Pradesh is for cementing its claim of Tibet. Secondly, it provides a better road connectivity to Pakistan and thirdly, it literally "chops off" India's head on the map and puts pressure on India's hold over J&K.

It is not (primarily) about Chinese wanting to teach a lesson to poor and arrogant Indians. That would be a welcome side effect. Many of the top decision makers in China have International exposure and are used to cold calculations than some psychology driven impulses.

Objectives for this conflicts / stand-off:
These two are long term strategic objectives that will continue to guide China and Pakistan and their unholy alliance. IMHO, the question we need to find answers to regarding the current scenario would be:
a) What would the practically feasible aims for China and Pakistan, given that they lost the surprise factor and find India prepared and resilient.
b). What is the minimum Cheen and Pak would want to settle for.
c). What India would like to settle for (pragmatic outcome - not capture Lhasa type wet-dreams)

PS: Edited for typos and to complete questions for us.
Last edited by schinnas on 23 Jun 2020 12:05, edited 3 times in total.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

As I have been saying - all this is to kill our GB-PoK campaign. Possibly Corona pandemic killed our well laid plans for starting this campaign this summer - and Chinese have understood that this summer is the last window when they can prevent this and cut-off India's springboard into GB. The war is upon us - and that too 2-front. But now that it has been forced on us - no better revenge that putting all our might and retake PoK and GB. If we can do this - it will start the breakup of Pakistan and no better psychological defeat for China.
We should move our Strike Corps to their staging areas - so when the balloon goes up - we can go for retaking PoK-GB while we hold off Chinese assault in Leh-Ladakh.
habal
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6919
Joined: 24 Dec 2009 18:46

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by habal »

Larry Walker wrote:As I have been saying - all this is to kill our GB-PoK campaign. Possibly Corona pandemic killed our well laid plans for starting this campaign this summer - and Chinese have understood that this summer is the last window when they can prevent this and cut-off India's springboard into GB. The war is upon us - and that too 2-front. But now that it has been forced on us - no better revenge that putting all our might and retake PoK and GB. If we can do this - it will start the breakup of Pakistan and no better psychological defeat for China.
If we have indeed laid a plan, and the plan has the required blessings, then not China nor pakistan can stop this plan.

China will lose taiwan if they fail in this plan. So either they postpone this plan and tell pakistan they tried and failed and save face and save taiwan or be prepared to throw caution to the winds and risk all in all out battle.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

Also, in internal BIF front Congress is not backing down and has infact deployed it's top-tier leaders to keep harping the point that Modi cannot defend land grab from China. These are ominous signs that they are aware of the larger plans of ChiPak combine and are expecting that India will loose some land in this coming war. If they calculated that it is something that will end with Galwan and Pangong, they would have not deployed their top-tier to attack GoI on this topic.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12268
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Pratyush »

khan wrote:I just watched this latest Nitin Gokhale video, one thing that made me very happy was Nitin tried to get General Rakesh Sharma bash the quality of Chinese troops & he refused - said "respect your enemy".

Also, right at the end, the RAW guy said that Xi has two choices:
  • Find a face-saving off ramp.
  • Go for something bigger.
Given how Xi has behaved with rest of the world over the last few months. Off ramp is not available. It's keep going forward until they run into an immovable object and smash their heads.

Go around it and try again.

That leaves only one choice for India. Prepare to fight a war.

The question is why china is acting this way??

I think that Xi's family history has a clue and that he wants to burn the whole thing down.
Pratyush
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12268
Joined: 05 Mar 2010 15:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Pratyush »

Larry Walker wrote:Also, in internal BIF front Congress is not backing down and has infact deployed it's top-tier leaders to keep harping the point that Modi cannot defend land grab from China. These are ominous signs that they are aware of the larger plans of ChiPak combine and are expecting that India will loose some land in this coming war. If they calculated that it is something that will end with Galwan and Pangong, they would have not deployed their top-tier to attack GoI on this topic.
Will the INC campaign still work in case actual shooting starts and India holds its ground?

If not then why do this?

The INC has totally lost its marbles.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pankajs »

Larry Walker wrote:Also, in internal BIF front Congress is not backing down and has infact deployed it's top-tier leaders to keep harping the point that Modi cannot defend land grab from China. These are ominous signs that they are aware of the larger plans of ChiPak combine and are expecting that India will loose some land in this coming war. If they calculated that it is something that will end with Galwan and Pangong, they would have not deployed their top-tier to attack GoI on this topic.
Quite the opposite!

If CON+CHIN were confident of a resounding defeat for GOI/Modi they would have left it to facts and NOT go on a propaganda over-drive. Facts would speak for themselves and the media would have destroyed Modi/BJP while CON could just sit back and enjoy the show.

Infact, the fact that they have deployed "their top-tier to attack GoI" means that they want to make "a mountain out of a mole hill". This betrays at least the CON's lack of confidence that CHIN is going to get any further in its plans and therefore a massive propaganda warfare driven by their top-tire.
ramdas
BRFite
Posts: 585
Joined: 21 Mar 2006 02:18

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by ramdas »

Maybe INC wants to rush GoI into precipitate frontal action to evict the PLA in the F4-F8 area, where we are currently at a disadvantage. Such an action is likely to be a stalemate, leaving PLA where they currently are. This would be tom-tommed by INC as Modi having lost that land. While the area is small, in this information age, that is sufficient for INC to attempt an equal-equal with the less informed masses. This is a more plausible gameplan for the PRC-Pak-INC axis, than wresting ladakh as a whole from IA.
pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14746
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by pankajs »

Pratyush wrote:Will the INC campaign still work in case actual shooting starts and India holds its ground?

If not then why do this?

The INC has totally lost its marbles.
Totally!

IFFFF Modi is going to be shown up as a "faddu" big time by CHIN ... CON just has to sit back and let CHIN+Media destroy Modi. The CON overdrive just betrays their lack of confidence in the CHIN plans.
schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1773
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by schinnas »

Xi is not some two bit crackpot dictator or a clueless idiot that is new to power like IK Niazi.

He is a chemical eng graduate and also holds a PhD in Law and Ideology from Tsinghua (China'a top most technical university).

Would be interesting how other leaders have sized him up. Despite the personal tragedies inflicted on him by Mao's revolutions, he has remained a die-hard communist cadre and has been relentless in pursuing a career in the communist party (applied to it 10 times before he was accepted). He is not a person to be taken lightly or under-estimated with simple psychological reading that applies to general Chinese populace. He is a cold calculating person and one who relentlessly pursues his objectives. Not less than Modi in decision making and will power. He may not have the charisma or humane nature that makes Modi greater, but that is immaterial here.

From wiki:
Former prime minister of Singapore, Lee Kuan Yew, when asked about Xi, said he felt he was "a thoughtful man who has gone through many trials and tribulations". Lee also commented: "I would put him in the Nelson Mandela class of persons. A person with enormous emotional stability who does not allow his personal misfortunes or sufferings affect his judgment. In other words, he is impressive". Former U.S. Treasury Secretary Henry Paulson described Xi as "the kind of guy who knows how to get things over the goal line".

Even if the current crisis blows over into a stale mate or even a pre-April 15th status quo, Xi is unlikely to relent from pursuing his strategic goals and ambitions.
Last edited by schinnas on 23 Jun 2020 12:46, edited 1 time in total.
schinnas
BRFite
Posts: 1773
Joined: 11 Jun 2009 09:44

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by schinnas »

ramdas wrote:Maybe INC wants to rush GoI into precipitate frontal action to evict the PLA in the F4-F8 area, where we are currently at a disadvantage. Such an action is likely to be a stalemate, leaving PLA where they currently are. This would be tom-tommed by INC as Modi having lost that land. While the area is small, in this information age, that is sufficient for INC to attempt an equal-equal with the less informed masses. This is a more plausible gameplan for the PRC-Pak-INC axis, than wresting ladakh as a whole from IA.
Hope this was meant as a joke!

Xi cares two hoots about INC, other than using them as useful idiots in his larger game plan. Xi has a bigger long term strategy that they have been pursuing from the times of Mao. INC may have a strategy (which they are likely to mess up) based on what they size up as Cheen plan and Modi's predicament (in their minds) but there is no PRC-Pak-INC axis. There is PRC the emperor. Pak is a loyal lap dog, INC is a useful idiot the emperor and pet dog leverage from time to time.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

schinnas wrote: Hope this was meant as a joke!

Xi cares two hoots about INC, other than using them as useful idiots in his larger game plan. Xi has a bigger long term strategy that they have been pursuing from the times of Mao. INC may have a strategy (which they are likely to mess up) based on what they size up as Cheen plan and Modi's predicament (in their minds) but there is no PRC-Pak-INC axis. There is PRC the emperor. Pak is a loyal lap dog, INC is a useful idiot the emperor and pet dog leverage from time to time.
Guys I think this went down the wrong track - I am NOT saying that Congress is kowtowing Chinese line here - they maybe corrupt but I don't believe they are traitors. What I meant is that Congress itself has a very deep reach inside the government ecosystem through the overt/covert loyalties they have cultivated over all these years - and they are probably getting information and assessment from these top echelon elements and based on that they are taking a position opposite to that of Modi. On such a strong emotional topic - if they knew that Modi will finally prevail - they will not risk themselves to be branded as anti-nationals in the short term.
vimal
BRFite
Posts: 1906
Joined: 27 Jul 2017 10:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by vimal »

Not sure why you are apologizing. Check Rahul Ghandy’s Twitter or Facebook TL and you know what’s cooking in their toxic minds.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

Vimalji - I am not apologising - I hate the Congress for what it has done or more over not done in last 60 yrs. But that should not blinker the perspectives to paint Congress top echelon as anti-national. RaGa is the modern day Lalu so no one takes him seriously - but when Dr MMS and Queen Bee all chip in - then I get the feeling that Congress has done some internal assessment with inputs from those in power and know.
Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4104
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Neela »

Larry Walker wrote:
schinnas wrote: Hope this was meant as a joke!

Xi cares two hoots about INC, other than using them as useful idiots in his larger game plan. Xi has a bigger long term strategy that they have been pursuing from the times of Mao. INC may have a strategy (which they are likely to mess up) based on what they size up as Cheen plan and Modi's predicament (in their minds) but there is no PRC-Pak-INC axis. There is PRC the emperor. Pak is a loyal lap dog, INC is a useful idiot the emperor and pet dog leverage from time to time.
Guys I think this went down the wrong track - I am NOT saying that Congress is kowtowing Chinese line here - they maybe corrupt but I don't believe they are traitors. What I meant is that Congress itself has a very deep reach inside the government ecosystem through the overt/covert loyalties they have cultivated over all these years - and they are probably getting information and assessment from these top echelon elements and based on that they are taking a position opposite to that of Modi. On such a strong emotional topic - if they knew that Modi will finally prevail - they will not risk themselves to be branded as anti-nationals in the short term.
You have some serious explanations to do :
- on how up until 2013 , Chinese were allowed to nibble and take over Indian territory.
- And who in their right mind would sign agreements to avoid small arms in border areas ?
- and why INC and CCP have party relations
- why the army got no response after asking 5 times to land at at a border ALG.
- why our forces had stocks only to fight for 11 days max at end of 2013.
- why NCSN was being armed by Chinese and nothing was done about it.
- why that retarded scum Pappu used a martyred soldiers father for his politics at this juncture.
- why so many military personnel are now pointing fingers at Congress
- why TSD was dismantled in Kashmir.
..
..
..
the list is long enough to write several 100 books.

Those who are corrupt are also likely to be traitors, genocidal maniacs and murderers. It is all of that that sustains them. Treachery, thuggery, intimidation, obfuscation, bribery, nepotism, dismantling of democatics checks & balances, ..... I can give you an several instances of each that would show why all of that is in fact treachery in one way or the other.

Oh I dont think you are a traitor too but I definitely know you are gullible.
Last edited by Neela on 23 Jun 2020 13:20, edited 1 time in total.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

If corruption is the yardstick then pray tell me how many traitors would you find in government and positions of power.
And I am not here to defend congress - our focus here is to discuss what is the current situation wrt China and what troubles are upcoming. In that perspective - I am saying that top Congress echelon taking anti-Modi position and getting labelled as anti-national on such a huge emotive issue is a signal that something big is coming down the road.
And you can label me whatever you wish to - we all live in a democracy.
Neela
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4104
Joined: 30 Jul 2004 15:05
Location: Spectator in the dossier diplomacy tennis match

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Neela »

Larry Walker wrote:If corruption is the yardstick then pray tell me how many traitors would you find in government and positions of power.
.
Yes, all of them are traitors. Because a democratic institution is compromised . It opens the door for infiltration. Remember how AW Heli deal parameters were changed? Or how a Romanian arms dealer and his wife had free access to SOuth Block not too long ago.
Vadivel
BRFite
Posts: 435
Joined: 07 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Chennai
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Vadivel »

Deleted since irrelevant.
Last edited by Vadivel on 23 Jun 2020 14:24, edited 1 time in total.
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

Neela wrote: Yes, all of them are traitors. Because a democratic institution is compromised . It opens the door for infiltration. Remember how AW Heli deal parameters were changed? Or how a Romanian arms dealer and his wife had free access to SOuth Block not too long ago.
I am talking about the officials in general - they may be corrupt but not traitors.
I am a proponent of Defence matters to be covered under National security act type of law - we should have a Lokpal kind of authority as part of NSAB Board and any established corruption should be prosecuted under National Security in SC.
RaviB
BRFite
Posts: 262
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 14:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by RaviB »

Deleted since unnecessary
Last edited by RaviB on 23 Jun 2020 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
Nihat
BRFite
Posts: 1330
Joined: 10 Dec 2008 13:35

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Nihat »

We seem to be digressing from the topic at hand again.

Just went through General Hasnain's analysis and possible China pak collusion in Ladakh. Given this very real possibility, won't it be prudent to further fortify DBO, build redundancies in terms of landing strips and an extensive road network which will allow multiple routes for troops to be reinforced from Kashmir to eastern Ladakh.

The Chinese seem to have opened the eyes of the establishment to this possibility and I fully expect work to speed up.

Perhaps there will also be additional recruitment of Ladakh scouts and more permanent stationing of troops
RaviB
BRFite
Posts: 262
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 14:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by RaviB »

Map of Chinese claims in the Galwan Valley

Some context, M. Taylor Fravel is an expert on Chinese boundary disputes, and should definitely be read to understand how they go about doing their territorial claims. IMO the India section has some weaknesses, but definitely worth a read.

Here's the thread by him

Some maps show the claim extending all the way to the Shyok, others claim the entire valley except for 2-5 km from the valley mouth (the Galwan-Shyok confluence). The boundary lines are usually at least a kilometer thick, so it makes it difficult to identify the exact claim.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

Nihat wrote: The Chinese seem to have opened the eyes of the establishment to this possibility and I fully expect work to speed up.
I was expecting the eye opening after Doklam, when the Chini showed what they think of us. But our establishment hardly did anything after that.

More than the soldiers, we have to prop up our local industry and reduce economic dependency on the Chinese. We are fundamentally paying around 20B in taxes to the Chinese government for the export deficit.

We are paying for the PLA soldiers who are killing our men.

Frankly I will believe it when I see it. If the Chinese disengage, most probably we will go back to status quo.. :roll:
Dilbu
BRF Oldie
Posts: 8272
Joined: 07 Nov 2007 22:53
Location: Deep in the badlands of BRFATA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Dilbu »

News floating around in media that an agreement to deescalate has been reached through talks.
Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14354
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Aditya_V »

Dilbu wrote:News floating around in media that an agreement to deescalate has been reached through talks.
Yes, the last escalation happened on 15 June after the Chinese cheated after agreeing to deescalate. I hope we are ready and cause its highly likely they will try something, we must not ask our soldiers to be disarmed like before.
khan
BRFite
Posts: 830
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by khan »

nam wrote:
I was expecting the eye opening after Doklam, when the Chini showed what they think of us. But our establishment hardly did anything after that.
Honestly, that’s my 2nd biggest fear, that in a few months this trauma will be forgotten & chalta hai attitude will prevail.

My biggest fear is that this we are in Act 1 of a 2-part China-TSP pincer movement.
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

khan wrote: Honestly, that’s my 2nd biggest fear, that in a few months this trauma will be forgotten & chalta hai attitude will prevail.

My biggest fear is that this we are in Act 1 of a 2-part China-TSP pincer movement.
The Chinese will not forget the humiliation. We are in a 2 front attrition war, while our establishment is preparing for 2 front full fledged war, which they believe will never happen.

The only thing saving us is the mass/size as nation and army. WW2 has shown it is not easy to defeat a large country in a full war.

Fundamentally we are the Soviet Union of 21 century, without the weapons.
Last edited by nam on 23 Jun 2020 15:16, edited 1 time in total.
RaviB
BRFite
Posts: 262
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 14:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by RaviB »

Relations with Taiwan

I see several people have proposed recognising Taiwan in retaliation to the current situation.

This would be absurd because:

1. The ROC (Taiwan) has the same claims on Tibet as the PRC. So it does nothing for resolving the Indo-Tibetan boundary

2. Chinese have a philosophy of "suck up - kick down". It's good for us if Taiwan stays below us, sucking up. There's no point in giving them equal status.

3. The possibility of recognition at some future date is a very good carrot to dangle, there's no point in handing it to Taiwan because we are angry at China. Taiwan has done nothing to earn it. Not to mention that even USA doesn't recognise them

4. We already have good relations with Taiwan. They have a de facto embassy (called Taipei Economic Council I think) in Delhi. We should definitely reciprocate a bit more but they already do a lot for us.

5. We should deepen our relations with them, most importantly in the economic sphere. Automatic visas for Taiwanese businessmen, while delaying or denying visas for Chinese businessmen will go a long way towards addressing the economic imbalance. A lot of business relies on personal contact, and personal presence and visas are an excellent way of making it more difficult for the Chinese to do business. If the Chinese retaliate by doing the same to our businessmen, then it's a plus. Most Indian businessmen are not there for any other reason than extracting profit for themselves and importing cheap rubbish into India. Our nation has no duty to serve the import of golden plastic lamps into India at the cost of more important interests.

6. The Taiwanese invested in China when it had nothing, no infrastructure, no educated workers, nothing. They are used to getting things to work in less than ideal conditions. They will have less hangups about getting things going in India.

7. The Taiwanese are heavily invested in the PRC, and would definitely like to move out some of that investment. We should do everything possible to help them do that. China doesn't have much leverage on Taiwan, other than military threats. Plus it needs those Taiwanese investments. Plus just as India wouldn't forbid Arunachal Pradesh to have economic activities in India, PRC cannot prohibit economic exchanges with Taiwan without tying itself into knots

8. Exchanging intelligence. They have very good intelligence on PRC. The HUMINT is exceptional, SIGINT is obviously an Uncle thing. They were the first ones to learn of the Wuhan Virus and slam their doors shut. Their paranoia about China and of course their experience with previous outbreaks is what helped them move so quickly on the CV. We have some very basic intelligence exchange, but we need to deepen this much further (maybe in exchange for automatic business visas or relaxed FDI rules?).
Last edited by RaviB on 23 Jun 2020 15:20, edited 1 time in total.
Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 491
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Iyersan »

China has lost the element of Suprise. We are too beefed up. I dont think it will escalate contrary to signs. Btw my conclusion on the Corps commander level talks was that nothing concrete was decided. Fonger 4, will India forcefully evict?????? The ball is in our court. Will we forcefully evict them
nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4712
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by nam »

3 countries: Taiwan, Sk & Japan. Do whatever it takes, to bring their companies in to India. They are the SINGLE most reason for what China is today.

They built they own monster.

We should be the counter-monster..
sajo
BRFite
Posts: 369
Joined: 01 Mar 2019 17:01

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by sajo »

Dilbu wrote:News floating around in media that an agreement to deescalate has been reached through talks.
Agreements are worth something only to scrupulous people. We had also supposedly reached an agreement on the 6th June.

There was some news maybe a year or so back about people from the NE being proposed for work in Taiwan through some labour exchange. Has that fructified ?
I think it would be great for building skills and hopefully some would be back to drive entrepreneurship in their home states.
Hari Seldon
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9373
Joined: 27 Jul 2009 12:47
Location: University of Trantor

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Hari Seldon »

IAF airlifts dozens of tanks to Ladakh to beef up firepower (Tribune India)
First time since 1962 that tanks and mechanised elements urgently airlifted to Ladakh
khan
BRFite
Posts: 830
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by khan »

Iyersan wrote:China has lost the element of Suprise. We are too beefed up. I dont think it will escalate contrary to signs. Btw my conclusion on the Corps commander level talks was that nothing concrete was decided. Fonger 4, will India forcefully evict?????? The ball is in our court. Will we forcefully evict them
You should make up your mind. This weekend you were predicting escalation :|

I think during the marathon negotiations, the Chinese were looking for a face-saving way out of it, something like “let us keep finger 4, you take ...”

If they keep finger 4, then Xi has something to show for this nonsense.

That said, this could all be a feint to buy time for their next move (just like June 6th “agreement”), we shouldn’t get too comfortable.
mody
BRFite
Posts: 1367
Joined: 18 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Mumbai, India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by mody »

The Print reporting that de-escalation agreement has been reached.

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindi ... spartanntp

Will be long step by step affair.

"“There would be gradual de-escalation that would take place. The forces will move back a particular distance in all areas of friction. This would be different for each location,” a source told ThePrint.
This, the source said, means that disengagement numbers will vary with place and time.
“At an X date, both sides will have to reduce the number of personnel by an X amount and go back by an X distance. This cycle would be done again according to the schedule agreed,” the source added.
Army sources said that more meetings will be held at levels below that of the corps commander to ensure that disengagement takes place smoothly and according to schedule. The sources remained tight-lipped about the exact withdrawal schedule, saying it was a matter of operational secrecy"
khan
BRFite
Posts: 830
Joined: 12 Feb 2003 12:31
Location: Tx

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by khan »

The hermit farmer warrior is saying strange troop movements detected on Himachal Pradesh. I agree with him, never trust China.
#BREAKING : Amid yesterday's Lt. General level talk between Indo-China military officials in Moldo for disengagement in Eastern Laddakh, increase PLA activities observed near Kinnaur & Lahaul-spiti Indo-China border in Himachal Pradesh today morning.

|| NEVER TRUST CHINA ||
https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/127 ... 06752?s=21
Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 488
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Post by Larry Walker »

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/127 ... 06752?s=19
#BREAKING : Amid yesterday's Lt. General level talk between Indo-China military officials in Moldo for disengagement in Eastern Laddakh, increase PLA activities observed near Kinnaur & Lahaul-spiti Indo-China border in Himachal Pradesh today morning.

So back to same old chicanery
Locked