India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Pashupatastra · Post by **Pashupatastra** » 23 Jun 2020 15:47

Iyersan wrote:China has lost the element of Suprise. We are too beefed up. I dont think it will escalate contrary to signs. Btw my conclusion on the Corps commander level talks was that nothing concrete was decided. Fonger 4, will India forcefully evict?????? The ball is in our court. Will we forcefully evict them

As they say , "war is old men talking and young men dying". While Indian defence forces have proved their mettle over 1947 , 62 , 65 ,71,99 wars , the leadership especially at corps commander level has not always been flattering. One can name Generals of the ilk of Brij Mohan Kaul , Lionel "Protip" Bogey Sen , Kishan Pal etc. have shamed the valors of Indian forces by their indeciveness , politicking and cowerdice.

One hopes we have the leadership of the level of Lt. Gen Harbaksh Singh , Lt. Gen Hanut Singh who can give a clear picture to political leadership and assure that giving Chin -Pak a lasting blow is the only way to protect the future of India.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 23 Jun 2020 15:55

RaviB wrote:Map of Chinese claims in the Galwan Valley

Some context, M. Taylor Fravel is an expert on Chinese boundary disputes, and should definitely be read to understand how they go about doing their territorial claims. IMO the India section has some weaknesses, but definitely worth a read.

Here's the thread by him

Some maps show the claim extending all the way to the Shyok, others claim the entire valley except for 2-5 km from the valley mouth (the Galwan-Shyok confluence). The boundary lines are usually at least a kilometer thick, so it makes it difficult to identify the exact claim.

Thanks, but so what? India's territorial claim on Ladhakh extends 100s of KMs beyond the LAC, as can be seen in GOI's maps ! The LAC line on the map would be kilometres thick on the ground, inevitably leading to claims and counter claims.

GoI is needs to be very clear. We have a claim with regards to where the LAC needs to be. But this has no bearing on our Territorial Boundary claim, which goes much much beyond.

LAC != Boundary.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 23 Jun 2020 15:56

And I missed to mention, Lahaul-Spiti is Demchok area - I remember someone earlier asking what if they try to roll-in through Demchok.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 23 Jun 2020 16:17

External affairs minister S Jaishankar stresses on need to follow ethos of international relations in presence of Chinese FM at RIC meet

He has to say what needs to be said and reminded. But we should be under no illusion that the lizard will change its behaviour.

RamSuresh · Post by **RamSuresh** » 23 Jun 2020 16:27

Larry Walker wrote:And I missed to mention, Lahaul-Spiti is Demchok area - I remember someone earlier asking what if they try to roll-in through Demchok.

Modi spent 2016 Diwali in Sumdo at the Kinnaur Spiti border

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 23 Jun 2020 16:34

amar_p wrote:
RaviB wrote:Map of Chinese claims in the Galwan Valley

Some maps show the claim extending all the way to the Shyok, others claim the entire valley except for 2-5 km from the valley mouth (the Galwan-Shyok confluence). The boundary lines are usually at least a kilometer thick, so it makes it difficult to identify the exact claim.
Thanks, but so what? India's territorial claim on Ladhakh extends 100s of KMs beyond the LAC, as can be seen in GOI's maps ! The LAC line on the map would be kilometres thick on the ground, inevitably leading to claims and counter claims.

GoI is needs to be very clear. We have a claim with regards to where the LAC needs to be. But this has no bearing on our Territorial Boundary claim, which goes much much beyond.

LAC != Boundary.

I did not mean to imply this. The LAC is obviously a fiction in that sense and not even a line, just an overlapping zone with differing perceptions. The 1993 agreement in fact defines it as not having an impact on existing territorial claims. Even the LAC claim of the other side is acknowledged, not accepted.

But the claim or the maps can show us the maximum extent of their LAC claim. If their maps do not show all of Galwan valley, then obviously their perception of the LAC probably doesn't extend beyond their claim line.

AdityaM · Post by **AdityaM** » 23 Jun 2020 16:41

click for a surprise video

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 91616?s=20

Ok, so its not ours. please ignore

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Jun 2020 16:48

Larry Walker wrote:And I missed to mention, Lahaul-Spiti is Demchok area - I remember someone earlier asking what if they try to roll-in through Demchok.

Lahaul-Spiti is in Himachal while Demchok is in Ladakh.

IIRC, the previous question wrt Demchok was because it is an axis for an attack on Chushul, the other axis being Spanggur/Pangong area axis.

shaun · Post by **shaun** » 23 Jun 2020 16:50

AdityaM wrote:click for a surprise video

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 91616?s=20

Ok, so its not ours. please ignore

USMC

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Jun 2020 16:55

GOI is still moving resources to the border so it is cognizant of the fact that Chinese cannot be trusted.

Plus the pullback or deescalation is for areas other than Pangong Tso area. Chinese will not back down without a show of force or a fight.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 23 Jun 2020 16:55

Sorry RaviG, I didn't mean to imply that you implied something, my point was directed at the author linked.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Jun 2020 16:59

BTW, the the pillbox and other structure constructed along the F4 ridge line could easily be take out by our ground forces.

They have a lot of practice doing just that along the LOC while targeting baki posts & bunkers. Remember, we got some special maal from Israel of the F&F type on a priority basic for use along LOC. Some of that maal can be redirected for use at F4 ridgeline.

Venkarl · Post by **Venkarl** » 23 Jun 2020 17:01

AdityaM wrote:click for a surprise video

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 91616?s=20

Ok, so its not ours. please ignore

But seriously..such PR videos from Indian military should be released to public at regular intervals. (conflict or no conflict times)
Many people in my WhatsApp groups still think that we can't stand a chance against China..reason they are so advanced and we are so outdated blah blah bullshit.

The problem is they see these bad ass YouTube videos and movies from Europe, UK, US, Russia and recently China and think that we are jujubis in comparison.

A Sad state of our mental state.
Sorry for the OT rant.

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 23 Jun 2020 17:06

A new video of a confrontation. Indian soldiers seem to have built a fixed a long defensive stone wall like structure.

https://t.me/ischinar/786

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 23 Jun 2020 17:08

RaviB wrote:A new video of a confrontation. Indian soldiers seem to have built a fixed a long defensive stone wall like structure.

https://t.me/ischinar/786

This is a very old video

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 23 Jun 2020 17:11

^^ But the Chinese are wearing masks?

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 23 Jun 2020 17:16

sajo wrote:
Dilbu wrote:News floating around in media that an agreement to deescalate has been reached through talks.
Agreements are worth something only to scrupulous people. We had also supposedly reached an agreement on the 6th June.

There was some news maybe a year or so back about people from the NE being proposed for work in Taiwan through some labour exchange. Has that fructified ?
I think it would be great for building skills and hopefully some would be back to drive entrepreneurship in their home states.

Yes timesnow reported woking mechanism meet on 24 June. Post a slow de escalation and china will move away from finger 4

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 23 Jun 2020 17:16

I was listening to Radio (in Australia) and the news is all over here in detail. It told that the talks were not successful and diplomats may have to take over. They clearly mentioned that it was a medieval fight with nail studded clubs etc.

On thing was not so interesting that it also said that the figures of Chinese casualty is probably exaggerated. However it also said that Indian troops are angry, and that the army is given authorisation to use weapons

Vadivel · Post by **Vadivel** » 23 Jun 2020 17:20

Venkarl wrote:
AdityaM wrote:click for a surprise video

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 91616?s=20

Ok, so its not ours. please ignore
But seriously..such PR videos from Indian military should be released to public at regular intervals. (conflict or no conflict times)
Many people in my WhatsApp groups still think that we can't stand a chance against China..reason they are so advanced and we are so outdated blah blah bullshit.

The problem is they see these bad ass YouTube videos and movies from Europe, UK, US, Russia and recently China and think that we are jujubis in comparison.

A Sad state of our mental state.
Sorry for the OT rant.

They do release pics and videos, buts it’s mostly of jawans handing over food in floods or doing yoga postures.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 23 Jun 2020 17:22

pankajs wrote: Lahaul-Spiti is in Himachal while Demchok is in Ladakh.

IIRC, the previous question wrt Demchok was because it is an axis for an attack on Chushul, the other axis being Spanggur/Pangong area axis.

Sir - now i checked the map - so look at Tibet border areas around Lahaul-Spiti, Demchok is bang besides this area.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jun 2020 17:25

Iyersan wrote:
sajo wrote:
Agreements are worth something only to scrupulous people. We had also supposedly reached an agreement on the 6th June.

There was some news maybe a year or so back about people from the NE being proposed for work in Taiwan through some labour exchange. Has that fructified ?
I think it would be great for building skills and hopefully some would be back to drive entrepreneurship in their home states.
Yes timesnow reported woking mechanism meet on 24 June. Post a slow de escalation and china will move away from finger 4

This has to seen to be believed, but I clearly think think FInger 8 to Finger 4 move by them was done for the benefit of useful idiots in India. Unlike Demchok, Galwan , DBO, Spangur, Gogra, Hot springs, which are real danger points, occupying no mans land here - more than military significance was aimed at humiliation and H&D.

Its not only the leaders it shows to what extent Left, INC supporters in the nation would go to.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 23 Jun 2020 17:32

Larry Walker wrote:
pankajs wrote: Lahaul-Spiti is in Himachal while Demchok is in Ladakh.

IIRC, the previous question wrt Demchok was because it is an axis for an attack on Chushul, the other axis being Spanggur/Pangong area axis.
Sir - now i checked the map - so look at Tibet border areas around Lahaul-Spiti, Demchok is bang besides this area.

Check again ... Chinese deployment at Chumur is next to Lahaul-Spiti and Demchok is further away!

Jara La/Demchok axis is aimed at Tsaka La/Rezang La/Chushul or reverse AND that was the context of the reference to Demchok in the original question.

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jun 2020 17:37

Chinese are sensitive in Demchok since it where we are closest to G219 and IAF airfields in planes can easily reach there. That is why they do want us to put roads east of the Indus, we must also improve our infra here south of Dungti and cross the Indus, hopefully this will be done by 2022.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 23 Jun 2020 17:57

Aditya_V wrote:
Iyersan wrote: Yes timesnow reported woking mechanism meet on 24 June. Post a slow de escalation and china will move away from finger 4
This has to seen to be believed, but I clearly think think FInger 8 to Finger 4 move by them was done for the benefit of useful idiots in India. Unlike Demchok, Galwan , DBO, Spangur, Gogra, Hot springs, which are real danger points, occupying no mans land here - more than military significance was aimed at humiliation and H&D.

I can't comment on your "useful idiots" claim, but purely from a military standpoint the spread on Finger4-8 as well as Galwan ravine buildups are idiotic since they can be bombed into oblivion. In my mind, it was to provoke an action by India and we didn't fall for the bait. Our action, if there is one, has to be at a time and place of our choosing, and delivered with cold calculation rather than in a state of heightened emotions.

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 23 Jun 2020 18:08

During winter, India should send some of our special ops men up finger 4 to 8 and destroy the chinese constructions. It will take time and effort to build them but only a bomb to destroy them.

Bob V · Post by **Bob V** » 23 Jun 2020 18:39

Vadivel wrote:
Venkarl wrote:
But seriously..such PR videos from Indian military should be released to public at regular intervals. (conflict or no conflict times)
Many people in my WhatsApp groups still think that we can't stand a chance against China..reason they are so advanced and we are so outdated blah blah bullshit.

The problem is they see these bad ass YouTube videos and movies from Europe, UK, US, Russia and recently China and think that we are jujubis in comparison.

A Sad state of our mental state.
Sorry for the OT rant.
They do release pics and videos, buts it’s mostly of jawans handing over food in floods or doing yoga postures.

Actually, there are lot of good quality fanboy videos out there. The problem is that, they get taken down, due to mass reporting by pakis. I remember someone on YT who went by the handle "beatzboy" who produced superb videos. Sadly his account got deleted/taken down.

Some of them have been re-uploaded by others now:

Sorry for going OT.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jun 2020 18:41

Hari Seldon wrote:IAF airlifts dozens of tanks to Ladakh to beef up firepower (Tribune India)

First time since 1962 that tanks and mechanised elements urgently airlifted to Ladakh

The Rohtang tunnel should be operational any time now. It would enable all weather movement of vehicles and we could have tanks
moving from Pathankot to Ladakh within a day. That will be a game changer for our logistics - the other being the Bilaspur-Mandi-Leh railway.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jun 2020 18:44

Larry Walker wrote:And I missed to mention, Lahaul-Spiti is Demchok area - I remember someone earlier asking what if they try to roll-in through Demchok.

The Chinese main base, logistics hub and their only road (the G-219 highway) are at Ngari, which is within artillery range and a short distance, over relatively flat ground for our tanks. The question the PLA should be asking is `what can we do to prevent an armoured brigade, backed up by a division from IX corps in Yol, from rolling into Ngari.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jun 2020 18:52

hanumadu wrote:During winter, India should send some of our special ops men up finger 4 to 8 and destroy the chinese constructions. It will take time and effort to build them but only a bomb to destroy them.

My wet dream is to see these bunkers taken in a night attack, with our boys needing nothing more than a Kukri (after all guns are only used as a
last resort) and the PLA losing their heads both literally and figuratively.
Then we can do chai-biscuit sessions.

nam · Post by **nam** » 23 Jun 2020 18:54

It is now given that we will have a front war fight, some time in the future. The Chinis will simply deploy themselves in to Pak.

They know there is no point deploying large forces for a fight in LAC, given the advantage we have. However they could fight with their full strength in Pak. Even if there is a breakthrough by India in to Tibet, there is really no major loss for China as none of it's population center is threaten.

On the other hand, our major economic centers are closer to the western front.

Moving 200-300 extra fighters in Pak will create a huge threat for us. We have to dedicate almost the entire current IAF force level to the western front.

And augment the Pak forces with armor. They are anyways buying VT4, so support structure is already there.

The front will be close to 7000KM long, combining West & East.

We better stock up.

Larry Walker · Post by **Larry Walker** » 23 Jun 2020 18:54

Deans wrote: The Chinese main base, logistics hub and their only road (the G-219 highway) are at Ngari, which is within artillery range and a short distance, over relatively flat ground for our tanks. The question the PLA should be asking is `what can we do to prevent an armoured brigade, backed up by a division from IX corps in Yol, from rolling into Ngari.

Sir - Chinese will be happy for us to sit in Ngari if they get to hold Leh/Ladakh. Because Hans don't bother about some poor Tibetan souls under Indian occupation and neither will the Tibetans in Ngari mind the Indian occupation. But Leh/Ladakh will be a huge pyscholigical blow for us Indians. Chinese can sustain their logistics through air-bridge or through the road coming up from north. I am not trying to be pessimist here - but the handicap we have is that even if we capture twice the territory then Chinese - loss of our territory will create big psychological impact whereas for them it will be some barren land and some forsaken people whom they can recapture or reclaim back later. The cacophony and hysteria that our "free" media will create if we even temporarily loose Leh/Ladkah will put our country in depression.

RamSuresh · Post by **RamSuresh** » 23 Jun 2020 18:56

Deans wrote:
Hari Seldon wrote:IAF airlifts dozens of tanks to Ladakh to beef up firepower (Tribune India)

The Rohtang tunnel should be operational any time now. It would enable all weather movement of vehicles and we could have tanks
moving from Pathankot to Ladakh within a day. That will be a game changer for our logistics - the other being the Bilaspur-Mandi-Leh railway.

It is already operational, though not open for public. Has been used to evacuate locals from Lahaul in medical emergency.

Rahul M · Post by **Rahul M** » 23 Jun 2020 19:05

Rony wrote:Guys, Check this out

Chinese military forum. In Chinese. Google translate to English. If any one wants to understand what they are thinking about the current situation.

Indian = Asan (derogatory term). The general attitude is contempt of Indians and ridicule. Deny Indian statehood and identity. Show Indians as weak but arrogant who do not know their place. RaviB was spot on with this analysis of chinese attitude towards Indians.

Below are some the India related threads. These are automatic translations

The possibility of going to war is rising! ! !
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629644-1-1.html

India must fight, but not now
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629636-1-1.html

What I think is, will we fight back if India retaliates ?
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629707-1-1.html

India says British are slaves of India, talk about Indian national character
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629634-1-1.html

It can be believed that the current Indian ruling authorities are basically extremely chaotic after the 615 World War
https://lt.cjdby.net/thread-2629716-1-1.html

There are many threads like this. And also whole lot of information on other chinese defense things.

Good find Rony.
Here's another interesting one.

After reading a lot of analysis from Asan on the Internet, this time things are not easy

https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... aJGPGtZ9tw

Here's the main page of the military forum.
https://translate.googleusercontent.com ... opiJM_zU_w

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 23 Jun 2020 19:30

nam wrote:It is now given that we will have a front war fight, some time in the future. The Chinis will simply deploy themselves in to Pak.

They know there is no point deploying large forces for a fight in LAC, given the advantage we have. However they could fight with their full strength in Pak. Even if there is a breakthrough by India in to Tibet, there is really no major loss for China as none of it's population center is threaten.

On the other hand, our major economic centers are closer to the western front.

Moving 200-300 extra fighters in Pak will create a huge threat for us. We have to dedicate almost the entire current IAF force level to the western front.

And augment the Pak forces with armor. They are anyways buying VT4, so support structure is already there.

The front will be close to 7000KM long, combining West & East.

We better stock up.

There are things like H&D, it was the 1962 war which exposed and broke Nehru God like Stature and it will have a similair effect of Xi Jinping. It was only due to that debacle, a party like INC agreed that we had to split the Pakis in 1971.

VinodTK · Post by **VinodTK** » 23 Jun 2020 19:31

Source: Bharat Shakti Profile / Bio of General Zhao Zhongqi

Ambitious General Threatens to Derail Regional Balance in Asia

General Zhao Zongqi is an ambitious man. He has been heading the newly created Western Theatre Command since 2016 and has led an almost perfect career, something most of his peers can only dream of. His stint of 20 years in the Tibetan Military District led him to believe that he had a clear shot for the top prize, an admission into the Central Military Commission (CMC), the Chinese Communist Party’s highest military decision making body.
:
:
:

Very good article worth a read

khan · Post by **khan** » 23 Jun 2020 19:36

Regarding 2 front war - this is a real serious threat that is the result of a half century alliance between two of India’s biggest & most formidable rivals. They are now roping in Nepal maybe others.

But we will be non-aligned only.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jun 2020 19:40

Larry Walker wrote:
Deans wrote: The Chinese main base, logistics hub and their only road (the G-219 highway) are at Ngari, which is within artillery range and a short distance, over relatively flat ground for our tanks. The question the PLA should be asking is `what can we do to prevent an armoured brigade, backed up by a division from IX corps in Yol, from rolling into Ngari.
Sir - Chinese will be happy for us to sit in Ngari if they get to hold Leh/Ladakh. Because Hans don't bother about some poor Tibetan souls under Indian occupation and neither will the Tibetans in Ngari mind the Indian occupation. But Leh/Ladakh will be a huge pyscholigical blow for us Indians. Chinese can sustain their logistics through air-bridge or through the road coming up from north. I am not trying to be pessimist here - but the handicap we have is that even if we capture twice the territory then Chinese - loss of our territory will create big psychological impact whereas for them it will be some barren land and some forsaken people whom they can recapture or reclaim back later. The cacophony and hysteria that our "free" media will create if we even temporarily loose Leh/Ladkah will put our country in depression.

How exactly are they going to get to Leh ? Even in 1962 they could not advance more than the dozen km required for them to capture Chushul.
Its not about taking Ngari or liberating Tibet. Its about cutting the only road China has to transport material to Ladakh.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jun 2020 19:43

Thanks guys for responding to the sole negative review of my book. It got a couple of unsolicited comments from outside this forum too.
I was also enthused to receive a mail from a Pakistani girl in the US - daughter of a senior Fauji afsar, who said I was spot on in my description of
Pakistan.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 23 Jun 2020 19:49

VinodTK wrote:Source: Bharat Shakti Profile / Bio of General Zhao Zhongqi

General Zhao Zongqi is an ambitious man. He has been heading the newly created Western Theatre Command since 2016 and has led an almost perfect career, something most of his peers can only dream of. His stint of 20 years in the Tibetan Military District led him to believe that he had a clear shot for the top prize, an admission into the Central Military Commission (CMC), the Chinese Communist Party’s highest military decision making body.
:
Very good article worth a read

Its easy to have a perfect career when you have never been in Combat.
NONE of the Chinese officer corps have either been in combat OR (with very few exceptions) have served in a high altitude area.
By contrast, almost EVERY mid ranking and above officer in our Infantry has served both in combat (RR or LOC) AND in a high altitude area.

The only promotion criteria for Chinese officers is political reliability (like the Red army officer corps under Stalin) and having a godfather in
the politburo.

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 23 Jun 2020 19:57

Btw if the Chinese are planning on disengagement then why are we getting reports warning large scale cyber attacks in India will take place this week?