India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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V_Raman
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 27 Jun 2020 03:07

India should not get pulled into arrangements like Quad or any others. All countries involved are ex-colonials - it will be a shame if we align with them. We can speak english or play cricket - but we cannot become them.

OTOH - I understand that we cannot give what China wants. What do do.. What to do...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Jun 2020 03:11

manmohan and shyam saran's conspiracy (brown lizards of Porki+bigLizard)

Not about Siachen
April 22, 2012
By Prakash Katoch

The Line of Control between India and Pakistan was originally drawn on a 1:250,000 map with a thick sketch pen that left a variation of hundred plus metres at any given point besides not always following ridgelines – a source of constant acrimony. Then was the naiveté of not drawing any line beyond NJ 9842 that in 1984 led to the discovery of Pakistan creeping up the Saltoro Ridge, followed by its preemptive third dimension occupation by India. The Siachen issue is not about Siachen Glacier but the Saltoro Massif. Strategic significance of the latter can hardly be gauged by armchair warriors.

Before the euphoria for demilitarization of Siachen grips the country with visions of a peace prize and another ‘landmark’ agreement before the next general elections in 2014 eggs us to draw another foolish line on the map, there is need for serious strategic introspection – ‘paid’ media hollering to ignore military advice notwithstanding. Major fallouts of hurried demilitarization of Siachen are as under:

• Widening the China-Pakistan handshake (collusive threat) to include Gilgit-Baltistan (reportedly being leased out by Pakistan to China for 50 years), Shaksgam Valley (already ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963), Saltoro-Siachen region (that Pakistan may reoccupy through “Kashmiri Freedom Fighters” or cede to China), own Sub Sector North (SSN) east of Siachen with Chinese sitting on the northern slopes of the Karakoram Pass if not on top of it already, and Aksai Chin already under Chinese occupation.

• SSN and Eastern Ladakh will become focused objectives of Chinese strategic acupuncture. Defence potential of SSN will be totally degraded with western flank exposed and KK Pass to north, which India stopped patrolling years back for fear of annoying the dragon. We continue to remain thin in Eastern Ladakh against Chinese threat via Aksai Chin – heightened more now with possibility of two front war.

• Our next line of defence will perforce base on Ladakh Range with possibility of Leh coming within enemy artillery range.

• Ladakh and Zanskar Ranges will be targeted for terrorism by ISI nurtured groups while Pakistan will say they are ‘out of control’. ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist outfits with an eye on Ladakh since late 1990s.

The recent media frenzy has exposed the citizenry to the arms lobbies, which may be the tip of the iceberg but what about global games being played by countries whose economies are largely based on weapon exports. Look at the manner in which India and Korea were partitioned – recipe for centuries of strife. Look at the deceit by the British in forcing Skardu into Pakistan’s lap. Look at the aftermath of Iraq, Afghanistan, Libya, Syria – heightened conflict and who makes the moolah through arms sales, oil, re-construction and power? Why are the Ottawa University, the Atlantic Council and the National Defense University, Washington not discussing a ‘Peace Park’ astride the Durand Line? Will demilitarization of Siachen increase the chances / avenues of conflict between China-Pakistan and India?

Protagonists of total demilitarization from Siachen with suggestions to keep reserves ready for offensive action in case of double cross need to answer the following:

• If the whole exercise is based on trusting Pakistan, what exactly has Pakistan done to earn that trust? Has the anti-India terrorist infrastructure including 40 terrorist training camps in POK been dismantled? Has ‘any’ progress been made in punishing the perpetrators of 26/11 Mumbai terror attacks?

• How will Ladakh be defended post de-militarization?

• What force levels we will need to hold ground - mainly along the Ladakh range? On face value ‘many more times’ the current strength north of Khardung La will be required – remember while one brigade was deployed in Kargil earlier, post 1999, the same area is held by a division with nine battalions deployed on the LC and additional troops required during summer months to check infiltration.

• Where and in what quantum will reserves for Saltoro Ridge locate, how will they be acclimatized, time frame for launch and what is our capability to launch them at those heights on a ridge already occupied?

• What troops will we need to counter infiltration and possible terrorist influx into Ladakh? Even requirement of placing reserves on the Zanskar Ranges will need examination.

• Expenditure on establishing next defence line post-demilitarization; posts, bunkers, gun positions, helipads, administrative echelons, new communications infrastructure with increased quantum of troops, time frame, tenability, maintenance and recurring expenses.

• Effect of demilitarization on population in the area, especially the Nubra and Shyok Valleys considering army provides livelihood to most.

Nawaz Sharif’s call for Pakistan to take the lead and withdraw troops from Siachen glacier is nothing more than a political statement and Kayani’s call to resolve the dispute saying his country follows “the doctrine of peaceful co-existence with its neighbours especially India”, words of a sly fox. Without remorse for her dead during the Kargil conflict, Kayani is capitalizing recent loss of soldiers in an avalanche to rake up demilitarization because:

• Pakistan is at great disadvantage vis-à-vis India at the Saltoro Ridge with Pakistan holding Gyong and Bilafond glaciers on lower ground to the West.

• The situation in Gilgit-Baltistan is becoming explosive due to neglect of Shia dominated areas, enforced demographic changes, subtle but deliberate conversions to Sunni form of Islam and state sponsored Shia massacres. Any outbreak of insurgency will adversely affect communications to Siachen.

• In conjunction Shaksgam Valley, ceding Gilgit-Baltistan region to China for 50 years (reported by USA’s Middle East Media Research Institute) can extend to Siachen-Saltoro through to Aksai Chin, forcing Indian defences south and increasing the vulnerability of Ladakh region.

• Demilitarization will open avenues of infiltration and terrorism into Ladakh. Since late 1990s, Pakistan’s ISI has been nurturing Shia terrorist organizations including Tehreek-e-Jaferia (TJP) and its many sub groups with an eye on Ladakh and Zanskar Range south of it.

To say that Pakistan will be in no position to re-occupy Siachen is foolish. Even while Indian troops were deployed at Saltoro, the Kargil intrusions were never visualized on plea that terrain was not negotiable. Additionally, in 1984, when both India and Pakistan rushed for Gyong La, an agreement was reached following a flag meeting for both parties to withdraw. Indians did, but the Pakistanis re-enacted their back-stabbing legacy and occupied the pass in clear violation of the agreement made hours ago.

Compared to Saltoro Ridge, we have many times more troops deployed on Ladakh and Pir Panjal ranges in Kashmir, some of them holding equally, if not more, tenacious posts including some in glaciated terrain. Equally dangerous avalanches occur periodically in such areas resulting in loss of lives. Yet, there have been units who have done a full tenure in Siachen without losing a single man to weather and terrain. Yoga and religiously following pre-induction training saves precious lives.

Lack of strategic forethought and political unilateralism has been typical to India ever since Independence. More significantly, ambiguity and deceit have been the hallmarks of China and Pakistan. Ask yourself have they ever bothered about world opinion? Will their expanding nexus and US pullout from Afghanistan, not make Pakistan more uppity? India would do well not to look at Siachen in isolation. In case of Siachen, first the AGPL and posts held by both sides must be duly delineated on ground and map. We need dispassionate analysis of all issues mentioned above before taking any step towards demilitarization.

Lt Gen PC Katoch is a Special Forces veteran who has commanded the Siachen Brigade

https://archive.claws.in/820/not-about- ... atoch.html

Vivasvat
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vivasvat » 27 Jun 2020 03:14

Consensus and narrative is being slowly built up against the CCP

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-asean-summit/amid-pandemic-se-asian-nations-warn-of-alarming-south-china-sea-incidents-idUSKBN23X1F8
Amid pandemic, SE Asian nations warn of 'alarming' South China Sea incidents

Vietnam and the Philippines warned of growing insecurity in Southeast Asia at a regional summit on Friday

China has been pushing its presence in the Exclusive Economic Zones of other countries while claimants are preoccupied tackling the COVID-19 pandemic, prompting the United States to call on China to stop its “bullying behaviour” there.

In early April, Vietnam said one of its fishing boats was sunk by a Chinese maritime surveillance vessel. China said that Vietnam’s claims in South China sea are illegal and “doomed to fail”.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 27 Jun 2020 03:20

rpartha wrote:Let me add one more thing while I feel like typing.. never had a chance to profusely Thank the Bihari brothers... in the frontline- it's not always about fighting for the flag.. it is about fighting for the fallen brothers too... we have to take care of each other in the hostile territory. On the night of June 15th, the Bihari brothers did something that no one expected them to do when they saw their CO died in the hands of Chinese.. Mark my words - it's a turning point and people will read about the bravery of those boys years to come...

Yeah this kind of unit solidarity and cohesion has to strike terror into the heart of any enemy.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 27 Jun 2020 03:21

Rakesh wrote:
Meanwhile, I am hearing RVV-MD, RVV-SD, R-27ER1 and R-27ET1 have started arriving in India. Please check/verify.

Image

Admiral saab, this photu is good stuff....like a shot of scotch whiskey. :D I was thinking that India should be seeing military transport planes landing from other countries (Rus, France, Israel etc.). May be send some AI planes and do a Vande Bharat air lift...this Rus plane is too obvious....unless it is a show of force to the friends west of Ambala :lol:. However, the bigger question is who the hell is spotting/snooping around Ambala air base in this situation?

I hope DRDO and associated labs are working 3 shifts. If things go kinetic, plenty of opportuinty for testing new systems. Garuthma/Garud for one.....
Last edited by SriKumar on 27 Jun 2020 03:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Jun 2020 03:21

Rakesh wrote:nam, you know the beauty in that picture?

Astra - local maal
NGARM - local maal
BrahMos - mostly local maal :)

All good Admiral but our Bn is at Pangong sector without a proper small arm!!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Luit » 27 Jun 2020 03:23

We should ignore such reports on PLA not able to field fighting men. They have a history of suicidal wars, coupled with 1.4 B people.

The Chinese were also underestimated in 1962.

The Chinese soldier was physically and mentally tough, could do a slow jog for long durations of time, fought and slept in his uniform. He was armed with a self loading rifle or carbine. He carried his rations by wrapping it in cloth and tying it around his waist.

The Chinese had carried out reconnaissance in Indian territory much earlier, were aware of routes down to Bombdilla, while the we were underestimating them. They had interpreters with their outflanking troops so that they could effectively utilise data gathered from interrogation for swift action.

Chinese planners read the psyche of the Indian senior leaders well.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 27 Jun 2020 03:25

syam wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:^^
Demchok: Demchok is very much in India, going by all information. Is it true, though, that there was an older Demchok that was overrun by the Chinese in 1962?

Not all of it is lost. If Modiji can push for construction of an airstrip there, half of the problems will be gone. A few defense systems can change the equation dramatically. That village deserves what ever development we can give.

Don't know why MoD not pursuing it as top priority. Beijing will bit*h I agree. Nothing more. Chinis are not pakis. If we do something bold like that, they might be impressed with our assertiveness.

If war breaks out, much better for us. No need to care for Beijing's feelings in that case.


Fukche ALG is just about 30 km from Demchok, and the airstrip stops just feet short of the Chinese claim line, at least from what Google Maps suggests. Given the orientation of the runway, I doubt we can place it any closer to the border, lest our aircraft become sitting ducks for SAMs or AAA.

But the terrain is flat enough for a longer strip, if need be, and a paved one at that.... we'd need at least a 4 km (preferably 5 km) long paved runway for hot-and-high operations though, especially in winter, if the runway is wet. Even with reverse thrusters (or empty load on takeoff) etc, landing and takeoff at 14k ft, in hot-and-high conditions on a wet runway is no joke.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 27 Jun 2020 03:27

ramana wrote:Rakesh, Col. Babu and the gallant 16 Bihar will go down in history as a landmark battle. It won't be forgotten.

Yes, they are our latter-day Abhimanyus. It is up to everyone to be the Arjuna for these lads and swear revenge.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 27 Jun 2020 03:30

Mods, is Luit a human sounding name?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 27 Jun 2020 03:33

Luit wrote:
We should ignore such reports on PLA not able to field fighting men. They have a history of suicidal wars, coupled with 1.4 B people.

The Chinese were also underestimated in 1962.

The Chinese soldier was physically and mentally tough, could do a slow jog for long durations of time, fought and slept in his uniform. He was armed with a self loading rifle or carbine. He carried his rations by wrapping it in cloth and tying it around his waist.

The Chinese had carried out reconnaissance in Indian territory much earlier, were aware of routes down to Bombdilla, while the we were underestimating them. They had interpreters with their outflanking troops so that they could effectively utilise data gathered from interrogation for swift action.

Chinese planners read the psyche of the Indian senior leaders well.

So, if they decided on aggression, they have to plan & prepare for it, right? Why should that obvious observation be used to generate FUD?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Luit » 27 Jun 2020 03:37

What is FUD? Thanks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 27 Jun 2020 03:39

^^^ Fear uncertainty doubt

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby idan » 27 Jun 2020 03:42

Indian armed forces were never planned to be expeditionary and therefore we are in a perpetual state of transition and transformation. Modi regime has tried to streamline things and be more offensive. Linking defence R&D and new product development to operational readiness of armed forces might not be a good idea after all. Let defence production be competitive, Indian private players take the lead role and the armed forces provided adequately. PSU, govt R&D lab model could be detrimental. They should be confined to drawing standards and frameworks. The hesitation by the government to go for an all out war is somewhat linked to inadequacies in the operational side of armed forces.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AdityaM » 27 Jun 2020 03:44

at this rate our control of finger 3 would become tenuous.

https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/ ... 34434?s=20

Image
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Luit » 27 Jun 2020 03:46

KLNMurthy wrote:
Luit wrote:The Chinese were also underestimated in 1962.

The Chinese soldier was physically and mentally tough, could do a slow jog for long durations of time, fought and slept in his uniform. He was armed with a self loading rifle or carbine. He carried his rations by wrapping it in cloth and tying it around his waist.

The Chinese had carried out reconnaissance in Indian territory much earlier, were aware of routes down to Bombdilla, while the we were underestimating them. They had interpreters with their outflanking troops so that they could effectively utilise data gathered from interrogation for swift action.

Chinese planners read the psyche of the Indian senior leaders well.

So, if they decided on aggression, they have to plan & prepare for it, right? Why should that obvious observation be used to generate FUD?


Well I recommend you read Brig. Darshan Khullar's book - When Generals Failed. Not my intention to create doubts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nachiket » 27 Jun 2020 03:54

AdityaM wrote:at this rate our control of finger 3 would become tenuous.

https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/ ... 34434?s=20


The area beyond finger 4 has to be considered lost at this point (unless we are prepared to carry out a full fledged attack to recover it which is unlikely). Not that we ever actually controlled it in the first place. It was more of a no man's land it seems which was occasionally patrolled by both sides. They have been building roads, jetties for their boats there for the last 20 years and now followed it up with permanent structures for their troops as well. The time for challenging them beyond finger 4 without starting a war is now past. But we need to hold them at finger 4 using force if necessary. You have to draw the line somewhere. Otherwise a few months or maybe years down the line we'll be talking about Chinese intrusions and posts being constructed at Finger 2 and 1 and Lt.Gen level talks scheduled to discuss disengagement and return to status quo (which itself has now changed).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 27 Jun 2020 03:57

Like certain posters overestimating the Chinese, there are posters underestimating our soldiers.

This isn't 1962, this is like 1971 in certain aspects. Just as our leaders psyche has been studied and possibly gamed, we have done the same to their leaders. Two can play the game.

As a Nation with fairly limited means and unlimited problems, our Rupee had to be stretched to many areas. A roaring MIC would have been awesome, however, as a Democracy the first thing to steady and create is a stable support base, that being done to a large extent, the next steps had to be taken in parallel in some cases and sequential in others. So what seems like partial support to MIC to my mind was the best that we could afford within the constraints of "geo-political time".

Much as I would prefer local maal, some of the so-called "silver bullet" options were very much needed for the stop gap. These purchases are dual purpose, as they give us the weaponry and at the same time brings us the support from heavyweights in International fora.

Babus nned to be Accountable. This free pass has to stop.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2020 04:02

Paralysis at political and administrative levels.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SBajwa » 27 Jun 2020 04:28

Sanju wrote:Like certain posters overestimating the Chinese, there are posters underestimating our soldiers.

This isn't 1962, this is like 1971 in certain aspects. Just as our leaders psyche has been studied and possibly gamed, we have done the same to their leaders. Two can play the game.

As a Nation with fairly limited means and unlimited problems, our Rupee had to be stretched to many areas. A roaring MIC would have been awesome, however, as a Democracy the first thing to steady and create is a stable support base, that being done to a large extent, the next steps had to be taken in parallel in some cases and sequential in others. So what seems like partial support to MIC to my mind was the best that we could afford within the constraints of "geo-political time".

Much as I would prefer local maal, some of the so-called "silver bullet" options were very much needed for the stop gap. These purchases are dual purpose, as they give us the weaponry and at the same time brings us the support from heavyweights in International fora.

Babus nned to be Accountable. This free pass has to stop.


This is the story of the one 23 years old Punjab-3 Ghatak platoon named Gurtej singh who killed bare handed 12 chinese soldiers on June 15th 2020 Click the link for his picture.

https://www.femina.in/trending/in-the-n ... 62269.html




The India-China stand-off has brought one important thing to the forefront – how the Indian Armed Forces fight on the borders to ensure we stay safe within the country.


The Galwan valley clash martyred 20 of our soldiers, but they ensured that there is no land grabbing by the Chinese troops. Amongst them was 3 Punjab's Ghatak Platoon's, Gurtej Singh. He fought against all the odds and despite losing his own life for it, took down 12 Chinese soldiers. This is his story.


Twenty-three-year-old Gurtej Singh hailed from Beerewala village in Punjab's Mansa district. He joined the Army in December 2018. He had always been keen to serve the army, and the dream came true when he joined the Sikh regiment.


On the evening of 15 June 2020, the 16th Bihar regiment was posted in the valley and came under immense fire. The 3 Punjab's Ghatak Platoon was called upon to reinforce the outmanoeuvred fighters. The Medium Arty regiment's Sikh gunners rushed out to help to carry their customary kirpan and an assortment of sticks, rods and sharp knives only.


Sources from the military state that four Chinese soldiers attacked Singh. He swung around two of them, and as two others tried to pin him down, he dragged all four of them towards the cliff and flung them over. He lost his balance though and slipped. But he got stuck in a boulder that stopped his free fall.

Though he was injured severely in the neck and head, he rewrapped his turban and pulled himself back to the fight. He used his kirpan to fight more soldiers until he could snatch a sharp weapon from a Chinese soldier. He further took down seven Chinese soldiers making the tally to 11 before one stabbed him from behind. But before going down, he killed his final 12th enemy with his kirpan too.


His mortal remains reached home on 19 June 2020 where the final rites were conducted amidst full military honours. Leaders of military and government paid their homage to this braveheart. Slogans of 'Gurtej Singh Amar Rahe' and 'Bole So Nihal Sat Sri Akal' were heard from the many villagers from in and around his native village.

His father said, "There's the grief of losing a son, but I also feel proud of the fact that he laid down his life for the country." He is survived by his father Virsa Singh, mother Parkash Kaur and two elder brothers. He was supposed to attend his brother's wedding a week prior but decided to stay back at his post as the situation in Galwan valley was tense.

Gurtej Singh might not be there anymore amongst us, but it is inspiring and a lesson for today's youth. We salute the braveheart for his sacrifice.


Also check this

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 57855.html

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Jun 2020 04:43

NRao wrote:Eye On China Aggression, US Defense Bill Seeks To Include India, Japan, Australia

With an eye on the aggressive Chinese behaviour, the United States's Defense Bill - National Defense Authorization Act for the fiscal 2021 - has sought fighter jet training detachment for India, Japan and Australia in the US Pacific territory of Guam. The move comes six months after the US Defense Secretary Mark Esper and Singapore Defense Minister Ng Eng Hen signed a memorandum of understanding for Singapore to set up a fighter jet training detachment in Guam.

The text of NDAA 2021, for the fiscal year beginning October 1, was introduced in the Senate on Thursday.

......


https://indianexpress.com/article/world ... c-6476987/

Biden seeks restoration of peoples’ rights in Kashmir; disappointed with NRC, CAA
A group of Hindu Americans have reached out to the Biden campaign expressing their resentment to the language used against India and have urged them to reconsider their views. The group has also sought a similar policy paper on Hindu Americans.

Democratic presidential nominee and former vice president Joe Biden wants India to take necessary steps to restore rights of all Kashmiris, and has expressed disappointment over the Citizenship (Amendment) Act and the implementation of the NRC in Assam.

These measures are inconsistent with the country’s long tradition of secularism and with sustaining a multi-ethnic and multi-religious democracy, according to the policy paper — Joe Biden’s agenda for Muslim American community’ posted recently on his campaign website.

A group of Hindu Americans have reached out to the Biden campaign expressing their resentment to the language used against India and have urged them to reconsider their views. The group has also sought a similar policy paper on Hindu Americans.

The Biden campaign did not respond to questions in this regard.

Observing that Biden understands the pain Muslim-Americans feel towards what is happening in Muslim-majority countries and countries with significant Muslim populations, the policy paper clubbed together Kashmir and Assam in India with the forced detention of over a million Uyghur Muslims in western China, and discrimination and atrocities against Burma’s Rohingya Muslim minority.

“In Kashmir, the Indian government should take all necessary steps to restore rights of all the people of Kashmir. Restrictions on dissent, such as preventing peaceful protests or shutting or slowing down the Internet, weakens democracy,” said the policy paper on Muslim Americans.

“Joe Biden has been disappointed by the measures that the government of India has taken with the implementation and aftermath of the National Register of Citizens in Assam and the passage of the Citizenship Amendment Act into law,” it said.

“Biden as United States Senator for decades and as vice president under President Barack Obama for eight years has been known as one of the best friends of India and Indian-Americans,” it said.

“He played a key role in the passage of the India-US civilian nuclear deal, and as vice president, he advocated increasing the bilateral trade to USD500 billion per annum. Well connected with the Indian Americans, Biden regularly hosted Diwali at his vice-presidential residence,” it said.

Biden understands the issues impacting India, issues of cross border terrorism, influx of terrorism across borders in Kashmir, issue of Hindu minorities sufferings in Kashmir, issues in Indo Pacific region with China, and the rising role of India as stronger US ally in all areas including economic growth, counter-terrorism, fight for human rights, climate change and global security, Biden supporter Ajay Jain Bhutoria told PTI.

There are groups within various elected officials groups in US pushing language and agenda’s highlighting misinformation and damaging facts on how India handled its own internal matter on Kashmir, Ladakh or immigration reforms related to NRC, rued Bhutoria, who is also on the National Finance Committee for Biden.

Bhutoria said US recently updated its immigration policy to block the H-1B and other visas for rest of the year to safeguard its own workers, which is completely questionable and will hurt the economy.

“India too has a right to define its own Immigration policy to support its population and economy,” he said.

“I grew up in Assam, Guwahati and I have seen the influx of people across the border and taking away important jobs, resources from local people in northeastern states,” he said.

“The immigration reforms and NRC are welcome steps. Execution of these reforms and strategies need to be improved and India needs to do better in change management and rolling out of reforms,” Bhutoria said.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Jun 2020 04:47

SBajwa wrote:
Sanju wrote:Like certain posters overestimating the Chinese, there are posters underestimating our soldiers.

This isn't 1962, this is like 1971 in certain aspects. Just as our leaders psyche has been studied and possibly gamed, we have done the same to their leaders. Two can play the game.

As a Nation with fairly limited means and unlimited problems, our Rupee had to be stretched to many areas. A roaring MIC would have been awesome, however, as a Democracy the first thing to steady and create is a stable support base, that being done to a large extent, the next steps had to be taken in parallel in some cases and sequential in others. So what seems like partial support to MIC to my mind was the best that we could afford within the constraints of "geo-political time".

Much as I would prefer local maal, some of the so-called "silver bullet" options were very much needed for the stop gap. These purchases are dual purpose, as they give us the weaponry and at the same time brings us the support from heavyweights in International fora.

Babus nned to be Accountable. This free pass has to stop.


This is the story of the one 23 years old Punjab-3 Ghatak platoon named Gurtej singh who killed bare handed 12 chinese soldiers on June 15th 2020 Click the link for his picture.

https://www.femina.in/trending/in-the-n ... 62269.html




The India-China stand-off has brought one important thing to the forefront – how the Indian Armed Forces fight on the borders to ensure we stay safe within the country.


The Galwan valley clash martyred 20 of our soldiers, but they ensured that there is no land grabbing by the Chinese troops. Amongst them was 3 Punjab's Ghatak Platoon's, Gurtej Singh. He fought against all the odds and despite losing his own life for it, took down 12 Chinese soldiers. This is his story.


Twenty-three-year-old Gurtej Singh hailed from Beerewala village in Punjab's Mansa district. He joined the Army in December 2018. He had always been keen to serve the army, and the dream came true when he joined the Sikh regiment.


On the evening of 15 June 2020, the 16th Bihar regiment was posted in the valley and came under immense fire. The 3 Punjab's Ghatak Platoon was called upon to reinforce the outmanoeuvred fighters. The Medium Arty regiment's Sikh gunners rushed out to help to carry their customary kirpan and an assortment of sticks, rods and sharp knives only.


Sources from the military state that four Chinese soldiers attacked Singh. He swung around two of them, and as two others tried to pin him down, he dragged all four of them towards the cliff and flung them over. He lost his balance though and slipped. But he got stuck in a boulder that stopped his free fall.

Though he was injured severely in the neck and head, he rewrapped his turban and pulled himself back to the fight. He used his kirpan to fight more soldiers until he could snatch a sharp weapon from a Chinese soldier. He further took down seven Chinese soldiers making the tally to 11 before one stabbed him from behind. But before going down, he killed his final 12th enemy with his kirpan too.


His mortal remains reached home on 19 June 2020 where the final rites were conducted amidst full military honours. Leaders of military and government paid their homage to this braveheart. Slogans of 'Gurtej Singh Amar Rahe' and 'Bole So Nihal Sat Sri Akal' were heard from the many villagers from in and around his native village.

His father said, "There's the grief of losing a son, but I also feel proud of the fact that he laid down his life for the country." He is survived by his father Virsa Singh, mother Parkash Kaur and two elder brothers. He was supposed to attend his brother's wedding a week prior but decided to stay back at his post as the situation in Galwan valley was tense.

Gurtej Singh might not be there anymore amongst us, but it is inspiring and a lesson for today's youth. We salute the braveheart for his sacrifice.


Also check this

https://www.newindianexpress.com/nation ... 57855.html

There are some factual inaccuracies there me thinks. DDMitis

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby banrjeer » 27 Jun 2020 04:58

V_Raman wrote:India should not get pulled into arrangements like Quad or any others. All countries involved are ex-colonials - it will be a shame if we align with them. We can speak english or play cricket - but we cannot become them.

OTOH - I understand that we cannot give what China wants. What do do.. What to do...


US nuked Japan and now they are allies. Would not be possible unless Japan genuinely sensed that US motives were mostly driven by wartime
needs and did not extend beyond.

The US and the west has a colonial past with extermination of natives and slavery. They are not perfect but not evil in their ethos. The culture has a capacity to repent and make amends. Today's "woke" zombies are almost as bad as the Clinton's "deplorable"s.
The US and the west are a far cry from today's China.

India as a civilization was weak and deserved to be exploited by colonials. It's time get out of that complex.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2020 05:03

Odd article for the situation, but interesting.

China, the common link between Ladakh and 3 US super carriers in the Indo-Pacific

The USS Roosevelt is a super-carrier, three times the size of an Indian or Chinese carrier, and its battle group would include accompanying cruisers, destroyer squadrons and submarines. “The US could deter the outbreak of a two-front war involving China and Pakistan on one side and India on other by dispatching an aircraft carrier battle group to the eastern Indian Ocean,” says Malik – if events were to spiral out of control.



There is an article in the NYT that says the Ladakh issue is a message for the US!!! Go figure.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 27 Jun 2020 05:05

Japan is a colonial as well - they are fought with each other about foreign lands - two world wars actually. Now they are all people who repent - are you kidding me!!!

We can use them - but we cannot become them. A military alliance - defacto/dejure/whatever - is becoming them - us becoming Pakis...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ardeshir » 27 Jun 2020 05:14

Rs_singh wrote:As for the East, so far, we don’t see a buildup happening, not that it couldn’t happen tomorrow. Something I am hoping someone on this forum could confirm for me since you mentioned NEFA, my grandfather fought in NEFA in 62. Specifically about your wave upon wave comment, he would tell us how only the first wave would be armed, when they would mow down the first wave, second wave would pick up the weapons from the first wave and carry on. I’ve never been able to substantiate this claim or find any references to it anywhere.


Sir, not sure about this happening in NEFA in 62, but a book (Chinese Military Strategy in the Third Indochina War: The Last Maoist War) describing their actions in the Vietnam conflict talks about their tactics of sending small teams repeatedly till defenses were breached.

Similar stuff was seen in Korea too, and again, there seems to be a discrepancy between historians and veterans.

http://www.koreatimes.co.kr/www/news/na ... 58792.html
Peng would employ the so-called "human wave," a frontal attack to overrun a defensive position, while the sides of the "wave" curled around to isolate and surround it.

Some historians have questioned whether the term "human wave" reflected the reality. Veterans have no such doubts.

Typical quotes ― "More enemy than I had ever seen in World War II"; "Like a crowd pouring out of a football stadium"; "No formation ― just mass"; "Suddenly, the whole hillside stood up" ― graphically illustrate its veracity.

So overall, since the lizards don't quite value their men the same way we do, I wouldn't put it past them to have used the tactics as have been recalled by men who fought them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2020 05:32

IF China can dictate terms in Ladakh, there is nothing to stop her from dictating what India does in GB and I bet in a year or two dictating on the growth of Indian MIC.

I do not think people realize how much China is currently taking on: the US, Australia, Canada, to a lesser extent EU + UK (telecom + C-19), the Philippines, Vietnam, Malaysia, Indonesia, Japan, Taiwan.

Call it what you like, I do not see an alternative to some sort of a coordinated action to cripple China and perhaps in the process cripple the world economy too.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 27 Jun 2020 05:36

V_Raman wrote:India should not get pulled into arrangements like Quad or any others. All countries involved are ex-colonials - it will be a shame if we align with them. We can speak english or play cricket - but we cannot become them.

OTOH - I understand that we cannot give what China wants. What do do.. What to do...


I hope those in charge have more pragmatism and less idealism within them

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ardeshir » 27 Jun 2020 05:47

V_Raman wrote:Japan is a colonial as well - they are fought with each other about foreign lands - two world wars actually. Now they are all people who repent - are you kidding me!!!

We can use them - but we cannot become them. A military alliance - defacto/dejure/whatever - is becoming them - us becoming Pakis...

I am certain the Chola Kings didn't acquire land in South East Asia via DLF and Robert Vadra.
Respectfully, these overly idealistic stances only hurt us.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prem » 27 Jun 2020 06:00

V_Raman wrote:Japan is a colonial as well - they are fought with each other about foreign lands - two world wars actually. Now they are all people who repent - are you kidding me!!!
We can use them - but we cannot become them. A military alliance - defacto/dejure/whatever - is becoming them - us becoming Pakis...


Nehur ji did this and did not align to make India secular super power while leaving economic and defense part on Bhagwan Bharose . China OTOH did align and as Global Time said , It can kick India even with legs tied in South China sea.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2020 06:08

Prem wrote:
V_Raman wrote:Japan is a colonial as well - they are fought with each other about foreign lands - two world wars actually. Now they are all people who repent - are you kidding me!!!
We can use them - but we cannot become them. A military alliance - defacto/dejure/whatever - is becoming them - us becoming Pakis...


Nehur ji did this and did not align to make India secular super power while leaving economic and defense part on Bhagwan Bharose . China OTOH did align and as Global Time said , It can kick India even with legs tied in South China sea.


While that statement from the Global Times is indeed true, India needs to figure out how much is she willing to pay to resolve this problem.

1) Do nothing, pay nothing and let China do as she pleases in the region (including Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan and IOR)
2) Act alone and pay a lot. A real lot
3) Act in concert and share the cost

By pay/cost I mean not just locally, but globally. India will come under the direct influence of China in such forums as UN, WHO, etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Guddu » 27 Jun 2020 06:17


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 27 Jun 2020 06:22

NRao wrote:
Prem wrote:
Nehur ji did this and did not align to make India secular super power while leaving economic and defense part on Bhagwan Bharose . China OTOH did align and as Global Time said , It can kick India even with legs tied in South China sea.


While that statement from the Global Times is indeed true, India needs to figure out how much is she willing to pay to resolve this problem.

1) Do nothing, pay nothing and let China do as she pleases in the region (including Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan and IOR)
2) Act alone and pay a lot. A real lot
3) Act in concert and share the cost

By pay/cost I mean not just locally, but globally. India will come under the direct influence of China in such forums as UN, WHO, etc.


Imo, has to be option 2. No country became truly powerful without paying the necessary cost. We need a kick in the groin to wake up and act like a country of our size should.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ardeshir » 27 Jun 2020 06:38

X-posting from viewtopic.php?f=1&t=7610&p=2443509#p2443509

Gurus, have any of you read much of Ed Luttwak? I am on his third book now, the current one being "The Rise of China vs. the Logic of Strategy". The video above discusses the book. I would definitely incorporate some of the talking points mentioned here into my overall threat assessment. Some of these, incidentally, have in some round about way been mentioned in the Border Security thread - such as that of Chinese officers following prescribed tactics and not know what to do when the adversary does something unexpected.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 27 Jun 2020 06:55

m_saini wrote:By pay/cost I mean not just locally, but globally. India will come under the direct influence of China in such forums as UN, WHO, etc

Imo, has to be option 2. No country became truly powerful without paying the necessary cost. We need a kick in the groin to wake up and act like a country of our size should.
Very true statement. By necessary cost, IMO, it comes down to cost what the average civilian has paid. And I am not talking just doing fundraising for martyrs and singing patriotic songs during a war (people praise the valor of the armed forces and go back to regular programming after the firing stops- think Kargil).

Many western countries that figure prominently in war discussions have had their average citizen drafted and went and faced bullets. US (upto Vietnam) had a draft. UK, Germany, Russia, Japan and many others (Poland, Italy, etc) have all seen war come to their homes- their houses were bombed and would have lost close relatives. In India, wars have been limited to the borders- which means the locals in the border states and the armed forces in general, see a direct effect. Rest are protected from direct effects.

The prepartion for a war takes place during peace, when weapons/training/divisions have to be developed/prepared/ready. Process takes years. Instead we have MoD babus holding up snow mobiles to Siachen and other procurements to 'save money' or 'uphold due process' with no sense of urgency or of the consequences of delay- which we are seeing today in terms of a lack of some materiel. Not to menion journalists and politicians who have delayed purchases to due politics (Rafale). The mindset is not going to change unless these people get to feel a direct impact from war, and this is my unfortunate conclusion. Another aspect of this is people buying Chinese goods. During Dokalam, I didnt get the impression that there was a large voluntary movement against buying chinese goods. Dont know the situation now about boycott of Chinese goods and how widespead it is, but these purchases directly help China (and indirectly help fund their attacks on Indian defence forces). There should have been a massive boycott already, without any need for a public exhortation....same issue, no direct effect. As a matter of point, I think the family of Col. Santosh Babu would have no doubts about where they stand on purchase of Chinese goods. I am not sure how far this sentiment would go.
Last edited by SriKumar on 27 Jun 2020 07:31, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 27 Jun 2020 06:57

Luit, you have a personal message. Please take action

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 27 Jun 2020 07:07

Guddu wrote:Nice video by major arya



Very sad to watch that vid.

Someone who, over the years, had so much josh/confidence is now pleading. For sure the national situation is in dire straits. No denying or camouflaging it - considering all these years he addressed us, the common man.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 27 Jun 2020 07:55

I don’t trust USA to show any favors to India here.

From NRao options

I don’t think we can afford #2 - act alone - China has the MiC to outlast us.

We cannot do #1 - Then we will be slaves

Our only option is #3 - work with China. We don’t spite our neighbor by joining hands with the robbers. We will lose credibility in the entire neighborhood - be it Nepal, Bhutan, bdesh, srilanka.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 27 Jun 2020 07:58

And it is not as bleak as everyone is making it out to be. We just want to be left alone to develop our country. China truly does not covet these lands from the sense of expansion. They want to secure this side to take on the colonials. We should arrive at a deal with them IMO.


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