India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[schinnas]

While China's manufacturing base is undoubtedly large, it does not directly translate into big gains in mountain warfare. Their airforce, logistics and mechanised forces will all face the mighty Himalayan wall.

The choice for India would be to increase their human casualties and release the numbers with proof which will create big domestic pressure from the parents of single children. Our deep penetration Para troopers and special forces can blow up.few critical road and rail bridges effectively snapping their logistics from core China.

Even in case of medium term prolonged war, India is better placed with better trained troops and better tactics and easier options to disrupt the enemy logistics.

The concern for India would be the two front war which would be difficult to sustain by us comfortably beyond 3 weeks.

[schinnas]

Regarding NRao's options.

India should do both option #2 ( we have to do our own fight) and also Option #3 in a guarded way.

We shouldnt shy away from pursuing equitable alliance and pacts for intelligence sharing, force multiplier arms and hitech weapon supply and naval coordination. In turn get the QUAD to partner us in building our MIC with FDI, so it's a win-win.

[schinnas]

Some posters are projecting China as a better country than colonials. China is the worst and ruthless colonial that hasn't progressed it's mindset unlike other former colonial powers. One should remember Vietnam's Ho Chi Minh who said he would rather eat French s*it for 30 years than kiss Cheen butt for 1000 years or something to that effect.

[schinnas]

China's MIC advantage can easily be blunted by destroying their key logistics route and few airfields near the border.

Then ruthlessly impose *HUGE human cost* on the enemy army concentrated near the LAC and wage a psyops with it so that enemy loses face internally and externally and trigger a civil uprising against the commie and pla leadership.

[Iyersan]

at this rate our control of finger 3 would become tenuous.

https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/ ... 34434?s=20

If this is true, what is Modi doing? They have systematically encroached. We need to forcefully evict them. Else they have shown India it’s place. This is something none of us will agree to.

[k prasad]

It's not about understanding tsunju or vedic wisdom. It's common sense. If we really want our guys to patrol all of these areas, we better provide good infra to back them up.

DSDBO road and Durbuk-Chushul-Demchok road. Both can be made into single Highway. Another road to connect Durbuk to Leh. Main base at Leh and two other bases at extreme ends of main highway. Multiple smaller bases at different locations connected to the main highway. Each patrolling point can have a basic post. Connected to the main road by small roads.

@syamji... these developments are happening. Certainly happening much faster since NDA took over and gave a general approval to BRO. Also look at the number of large scale tunnel projects being done in these areas, all of which will provide all-year access to areas that were previously inaccessible. Add to that the Sasoma-Saser La road alternative to the DSDBO road.

Leh to Durbuk is not an easy topography - currently, all 3 roads have to go through very high mountain passes - Khardung La, Chang La, and another pass in between them that I don't know the name of, apart from the flatter (but much longer) southern detour that goes through Nyoma and Chushul. All the passes are above 5000m in elevation, so its going to take a little time to go from having a motorable gravel path to a full blown metalled road. But BRO is working on it! Hell, I saw a video of a Lambo (low clearance and all) making it through Khardung La. We're trying to play catch-up for years of deliberate neglect and leg-dragging by multiple governments.

[Ardeshir]

If this is true, what is Modi doing? They have systematically encroached. We need to forcefully evict them. Else they have shown India it’s place. This is something none of us will agree to.

I would take anything that Lifafa Shukla, and his coterie of clowns such as Ashok Swain, Vipin Narang et al say with a pinch of salt.

[k prasad]

Some posters are projecting China as a better country than colonials. China is the worst and ruthless colonial that hasn't progressed it's mindset unlike other former colonial powers. One should remember Vietnam's Ho Chi Minh who said he would rather eat French s*it for 30 years than kiss Cheen butt for 1000 years or something to that effect.

Considering that China had a 1000 year occupation of Vietnam, I'm not surprised one bit at that sentiment. I mean, till the late 19th century, they were still using the old chinese script to write vietnamese.

[pankajs]

Indian armed forces were never planned to be expeditionary and therefore we are in a perpetual state of transition and transformation. Modi regime has tried to streamline things and be more offensive. Linking defence R&D and new product development to operational readiness of armed forces might not be a good idea after all. Let defence production be competitive, Indian private players take the lead role and the armed forces provided adequately. PSU, govt R&D lab model could be detrimental. They should be confined to drawing standards and frameworks. The hesitation by the government to go for an all out war is somewhat linked to inadequacies in the operational side of armed forces.

Agree with the highlight.

DRDO can hardly do anything that will turn the tide in the immediate future. Production is with the OFB which are going on an indefinite strike soon!

The absurdities of India! The solution, as you and other have rightly pointed out, is to farm work to the private sector.
1. ~Half of our basic (bullets, Howitzer ammo, boots, clothes, etc) requirement has to be pushed to the private sector. That would ensure quality, timeliness and backup capacity.

However, for that GOI has to take the pain of financing redundant capacity. Our penny pinching politico and babudom does not realize the importance of funding & building redundant capacity in critical area.

2. Henceforth, make sure all incremental capacity, for both basic and advanced gears, are given to the private sector. I don't think the OFB can be reformed to any extent.

3. Hesitation of GOI to punch China back is linked to many factors other than just operational inadequacies of the forces.

[schinnas]

The hesitation is also because we have an increasing Coronavirus problem that is hurting the economy and govt coffers while Cheen has mostly brought it under control and Cheen economy seems to be back on track.

Or GoI may want to have winter on its side in addition to the assistance rendered by the Himalayas. That will blunt the two front threat to a large extent and enable retaking of strategically critical high grounds.

[pankajs]

China's MIC advantage can easily be blunted by destroying their key logistics route and few airfields near the border.

Then ruthlessly impose *HUGE human cost* on the enemy army concentrated near the LAC and wage a psyops with it so that enemy loses face internally and externally and trigger a civil uprising against the commie and pla leadership.

While far from an ideal, India will get emergency supplies from our friends if an Indo-China conflict stretches out.

1. This coming conflict with China has almost everyone that matters rooting for an Indian victory for their own selfish reasons be that America, Europe, Israel, Russia or France. BTW, stalemate in an Indo-China war would be a victory for India from most angles.

Everyone's preferred war is one that is fought by someone else. India taking on China would be good news to the rest of the thinking world and they would be willing to supply almost every thing for a price. FAAAAAAAAR from ideal but will work out in a pinch.

2. Per some reports, US is already helping India with intelligence on the Chinese buildup, deployment, orientation, the units capabilities, its equipment and the American assessment of their effectiveness.

American's have some of the best intelligence on China, its troops, its equipment and their effectiveness.

Generally, co-operation is the name of the game and anyone who thinks otherwise is not thinking for India.

[abhik]

Not all of it is lost. If Modiji can push for construction of an airstrip there, half of the problems will be gone. A few defense systems can change the equation dramatically. That village deserves what ever development we can give.

Don't know why MoD not pursuing it as top priority. Beijing will bit*h I agree. Nothing more. Chinis are not pakis. If we do something bold like that, they might be impressed with our assertiveness.

If war breaks out, much better for us. No need to care for Beijing's feelings in that case.

Fukche ALG is just about 30 km from Demchok, and the airstrip stops just feet short of the Chinese claim line, at least from what Google Maps suggests. Given the orientation of the runway, I doubt we can place it any closer to the border, lest our aircraft become sitting ducks for SAMs or AAA.

But the terrain is flat enough for a longer strip, if need be, and a paved one at that.... we'd need at least a 4 km (preferably 5 km) long paved runway for hot-and-high operations though, especially in winter, if the runway is wet. Even with reverse thrusters (or empty load on takeoff) etc, landing and takeoff at 14k ft, in hot-and-high conditions on a wet runway is no joke.

They were planning to build an airbase in in Nyoma, but looks like it never happened (it is just an AGL now). Fukche ALG is probably too close to LAC for a full fledged base.

[SRajesh]

India should not get pulled into arrangements like Quad or any others. All countries involved are ex-colonials - it will be a shame if we align with them. We can speak english or play cricket - but we cannot become them.

OTOH - I understand that we cannot give what China wants. What do do.. What to do...

US nuked Japan and now they are allies. Would not be possible unless Japan genuinely sensed that US motives were mostly driven by wartime
needs and did not extend beyond.

The US and the west has a colonial past with extermination of natives and slavery. They are not perfect but not evil in their ethos. The culture has a capacity to repent and make amends. Today's "woke" zombies are almost as bad as the Clinton's "deplorable"s.
The US and the west are a far cry from today's China.

India as a civilization was weak and deserved to be exploited by colonials. It's time get out of that complex.

Banjeeerji
As it has the been DD rerun of Mahabharatha: we have been fighting like the first 9 days of the great war and following the rules.
Time to move on and have to use all means
The aim should be for the re-establishment of the Bharath with buffer zones as someone earlier mentioned.
If the Quad groups mind they should try and set the rot from within 'Chin'
Before the war(and if the war starts):
1.CCP should be painted aka Socialist Party
2. call for Mongolia unification
3.Freedom of Tibet
4.Uighur Independence movement
The dragon will then start thrashing around and injure himself and then send the Proverbial St.George to slay the dragon

[syam]

@syamji... these developments are happening. Certainly happening much faster since NDA took over and gave a general approval to BRO. Also look at the number of large scale tunnel projects being done in these areas, all of which will provide all-year access to areas that were previously inaccessible. Add to that the Sasoma-Saser La road alternative to the DSDBO road.

Leh to Durbuk is not an easy topography - currently, all 3 roads have to go through very high mountain passes - Khardung La, Chang La, and another pass in between them that I don't know the name of, apart from the flatter (but much longer) southern detour that goes through Nyoma and Chushul. All the passes are above 5000m in elevation, so its going to take a little time to go from having a motorable gravel path to a full blown metalled road. But BRO is working on it! Hell, I saw a video of a Lambo (low clearance and all) making it through Khardung La. We're trying to play catch-up for years of deliberate neglect and leg-dragging by multiple governments.

Sirji, I am not complaining about the road constructions. It's about long term plans. I am seeing sinister design here. The way MoD approaching this infra construction is very time consuming and by the time they reach 80% completion, Modiji term will be completed. They will roll back these things in single year if some pro-chini party comes to power.

If they are serious about it, they would have done it different way. Like - Upgrading airstrip at DBO and making it into proper base for forces. It wouldn't have taken more than 2 years to finish that. Why no action there? In demchok case they didn't even bother with any large scale constructions. I bet they gave MEA excuses to stall them.

Both bases could have taken max 3 years. We would be seeing them functional in 2018 itself if these MoD guys are serious about building any infra in that area. It's not like upgrading DBO will have any affect on road constructions. They could have roped in some private company for the upgrades.

All of it sounding like some sinister plan to stall the infra development in the area. Whenever Modji asks for progress, these traitors will show the half finished roads as progress. I think they are buying time until pro-chini government comes to power.

[arshyam]

Arshyam,

Gotcha. I’ll try my best, though in the context of my writings hopefully it’s clear who I’m referring to. Apologies. FYI, US Army is just USA, army reserves are USAR and army national guard is the state, for is instance TX army national guard would just be TXNG.

Thanks saar. No need for apologies and all that

[Rs_singh]

Posted on RT : Russian mouth piece

https://youtu.be/wP9HdNSnzOA

Interview with a Chinese expert about clash with India. Roughly coincides with DMs visit to Moscow. Gist of it is that India shouldn’t fight China because China will beat India to pulp.

Ok, my pants are now browner than Bharat’s western neighbors special Army ( someone please tell me what you call it here, we used to have a name for it which I’ll save for later) . It’s twenty mins or so, please watch, specially those harboring illusions about the Russians and the Chinese.

[pankajs]

While that statement from the Global Times is indeed true, India needs to figure out how much is she willing to pay to resolve this problem.

1) Do nothing, pay nothing and let China do as she pleases in the region (including Ladakh, Gilgit-Baltistan and IOR)
2) Act alone and pay a lot. A real lot
3) Act in concert and share the cost

By pay/cost I mean not just locally, but globally. India will come under the direct influence of China in such forums as UN, WHO, etc.

Imo, has to be option 2. No country became truly powerful without paying the necessary cost. We need a kick in the groin to wake up and act like a country of our size should.

True ...

BUT with qualifications ... How we pay the cost matters. There is a difference between alignment vs alliance.

I would think that we have a great degree of alignment with the US, EU, France acting on its own, UK, Japan, Australia, Canada and others on the NEED to balance China.

So while we will fight out battles alone our deficiencies wrt China could be mitigated to a large extent by our alignment with other like minded countries for a PRICE of course. US, as an example, is already supplying intelligence on China that we simply cannot generate. This is in the short-term IFFFFF it comes to war.

In the long-term, developing a desi private MIC is a foundational requirement for an aspiring power like India. We have to pay the COST of building up redundant capacity for basics in the private sector. This simple fact seems to escape out penny pinching decision makers.

[k prasad]

Sirji, I am not complaining about the road constructions. It's about long term plans. I am seeing sinister design here. The way MoD approaching this infra construction is very time consuming and by the time they reach 80% completion, Modiji term will be completed. They will roll back these things in single year if some pro-chini party comes to power.
(...)
All of it sounding like some sinister plan to stall the infra development in the area. Whenever Modji asks for progress, these traitors will show the half finished roads as progress. I think they are buying time until pro-chini government comes to power.

Do you have any evidence for this saar? Either (a) for there being undue delays after the political go-ahead has been given, or (b) There being any sinister reasons for said delay?

If they are serious about it, they would have done it different way. Like - Upgrading airstrip at DBO and making it into proper base for forces. It wouldn't have taken more than 2 years to finish that. Why no action there? In demchok case they didn't even bother with any large scale constructions. I bet they gave MEA excuses to stall them.

Both bases could have taken max 3 years. We would be seeing them functional in 2018 itself if these MoD guys are serious about building any infra in that area. It's not like upgrading DBO will have any affect on road constructions. They could have roped in some private company for the upgrades.

As abhik mentioned, the UPA time, they'd been talking and talking about upgrading Nyoma to a full-fledged air base. It doesn't seem to have happened. Also, if recent reports are to be believed, both Fukche and Nyoma might've been unused for a while and are being reactivated (or were reactivated recently). Either way, you are correct on needing to upgrade with some full-fledged metalled air fields for transport (C-17) operations. Fighter operations can be coordinated from Srinagar and Leh, and hopefully, the Kargil Air Base.

DBO, if I remember, there was some chatter about the soil making a compacted airfield difficult to build. Needs to be seen. Either which way, it would seem to me that any construction work will become much easier and faster now that the road connectivity is improved. That way, not only can construction material move faster, but won't have to be air-lifted in.

[arshyam]

at this rate our control of finger 3 would become tenuous.

https://twitter.com/NarangVipin/status/ ... 34434?s=20

If this is true, what is Modi doing? They have systematically encroached. We need to forcefully evict them. Else they have shown India it’s place. This is something none of us will agree to.

If this has to be true, our ITBP post at the base of finger 3 (where our metal road ends, and has the "ITBP" sign on the slope) and the (Army?) base at the western slope of Finger 4 have been abandoned. How likely is that? Remember, the recent face-to-face fisticuffs whose video had been shared in this thread occurred between Finger 4 and 5, or may be even to its east. Given that background, would our troops have simply vacated all these areas and allow the Chinese to push us back to west of finger 3? Really?

Here's Col Dinny's map for reference:

It's instructive to listen to what Gen VK Singh said about the fingers area in his interview to ABP (video shared earlier on this thread). Would put such nonsense to rest.

[nam]

Fascinating to see some opposition on having alliance with US/Western countries to counter China.

If only the Chinese had such dedication to their "anti-capitalist" ethos.. we wouldn't be facing a 14T power on our borders today...

While we want to stick with Russia who has half the GDP than us, and has a bigger colonial past than US.

[pankajs]

And it is not as bleak as everyone is making it out to be. We just want to be left alone to develop our country. China truly does not covet these lands from the sense of expansion. They want to secure this side to take on the colonials. We should arrive at a deal with them IMO.

Very strange conclusion ...

1. America too does not covet foreign land in that sense just has bases and military deployed globally. America wants the world to acknowledge their global dominance and their way of life/thinking and pay a price/jaziya for using their technology/ideas.

The Chinese want bases and their military deployed globally. Chinese too want the the world to acknowledge their global dominance and their way of life/thinking and pay the required price/jaziya.

Chinese just want to replace America as the global hegemon.

2. Chinese are just a colonial as the Europeans of the 18/19th century, American of the 20th century. Just because Americans did not covet foreign land does not mean they were not colonials! They imposed their standards on everything from thoughts to goods and extracted a price/cost/royalty/jaziya on everything.

The Chinese want to be the 21st century colonialist by replacing America. Their methods are different from the Americans and the Europeans. The BRI and the debt diplomacy is nothing but its play to take control of other countries. Same with their technology exports. I am not even going into history of Chinese behavior in their immediate neighbourhood!

3. How do you arrive at a deal with power that does not even share map of their claim line on the boundary?!!!

We can see that Chinese model of a deal operate in our very own neighborhood but more specifically in Bakistan. That is a deal for surrender.

If you mean we should just sign a blank page and give it to China to fill it in at their leisure without any discussion, then I am afraid I am constrained to say that you do not have India's best interest at heart.

[banrjeer]

Japan is a colonial as well - they are fought with each other about foreign lands - two world wars actually. Now they are all people who repent - are you kidding me!!!

[/quote]


India was a colonizing power at one point with soft power extending to Japan. It was not a genocidal power but all the power could not have been soft.


As for "Us becoming like them because we made a deal"?

Such morality seems like an excuse for not doing ones job.
No one becomes anyone else by making deals. Bose made deals with Germany and Japan.
If Greece and turkey can be in NATO and if Putin sells S400 to a country just after it shoots it's fighter jet down, then surely there's room for limited deals.

Indians voted for a better long term deal for the nation not just onion prices. It's time for the govt to start acting. Deals need not be bloated and overt like NATO.

[syam]

2016 video. I wonder what's the current state of infra there.

[pankajs]

By pay/cost I mean not just locally, but globally. India will come under the direct influence of China in such forums as UN, WHO, etc.
Imo, has to be option 2. No country became truly powerful without paying the necessary cost. We need a kick in the groin to wake up and act like a country of our size should.

Completely agree. Every other country of influence is watching to see how we act. No one will stand for us while they see us being bullied around. Already much respect has been lost by the lack on action by the bosses (not withstanding the action at the local level by the CO and below of 16 bihar) claiming that Chinese are not in our land and the panic running to Russia. We had a good 6 years where instead of focusing on some wasteful projects and shiny toys we should have done a fast track on churning out desi equipment.

If we kick the Chinese and create a world incident that brings both nations close to using nukes even with a severe cost a security council seat is all but assured otherwise we will continue to be told to wait outside and rightfully so.

1. Unlike fickle "public" opinion, like yours and mine, Governments and establishments don't think in terms of hours and days. Every major and most minor powers are keenly watching the India-China border contest play out, most will wait for a few years AFTER it is over to draw FINAL conclusions and we are not even in the middle of the contest.

2. Security council reforms are very though because the the one that you propose to kick is the one who has a veto on your joining. Even if it were possible to kick China, I don't know much that will make it inclined to vote for India.

A China kicked @ the border will still remain one of the preeminent powers of the world that NO other country will try to mess with and cross unnecessarily unless by kicking you mean decimating China. Now that is something that will have the world take notice of you.

It is this obsession with security council seat that is one of the reasons that has us in a fix @ our borders. Per some commentary, India/Modi played it nice with China especially in economic/trade field because it thought China could be made to see reason and create a win-win!

[syam]

Do you have any evidence for this saar? Either (a) for there being undue delays after the political go-ahead has been given, or (b) There being any sinister reasons for said delay?

To accuse some one, we don't need full evidence of the crime, sirji. The damage is there as evidence. Who gets the blame? Modiji is not against infra building. It's in the execution. Imagine Modiji losing 2019 elections. What do you think would have happened to the half completed infra?

[m_saini]

True ...

BUT with qualifications ... How we pay the cost matters. There is a difference between alignment vs alliance.

I would think that we have a great degree of alignment with the US, EU, France acting on its own, UK, Japan, Australia, Canada and others on the NEED to balance China.

So while we will fight out battles alone our deficiencies wrt China could be mitigated to a large extent by our alignment with other like minded countries for a PRICE of course. US, as an example, is already supplying intelligence on China that we simply cannot generate. This is in the short-term IFFFFF it comes to war.

In the long-term, developing a desi private MIC is a foundational requirement for an aspiring power like India. We have to pay the COST of building up redundant capacity for basics in the private sector. This simple fact seems to escape out penny pinching decision makers.

Imo the fact that we can rely on US for intelligence support at a critical time against the chinese is one of the reasons we don't get serious about our MIC. It's true and obvious that we don't yet have the capabilities that US possesses but we shouldn't rely on them. I mean why would i be serious about developing private sector for our MIC when I have a reasonable expectation that like minded countries would support us in a crunch time, for a price of course. I'd rather just tour europe, russia than to place orders for desi kit and just open the taps when immediate help is required.

We need the fear of being left alone against the hans. China is the ideal enemy that can drive our MIC provided we don't make a habit of putting out fires using waters from mississippi.

[pankajs]

I tried using Baidu maps today, but not very impressed. Resolution of satellite imageries much lower than google, and boundaries switch off at high resolution just when you can start making out features. So I gave up after a while.

https://mapper.acme.com/ is very interesting ... Resolution limited to ~ 50m.

It features Maps, Terrain, Satellite, Topo ,etc mode and has more recent updates that Google. I am using it to spot things of interest and mark them on my Google Earth install using co-ordinates.

E,g Check what the Chinese have built @ N 35.90867 E 79.21310 just off G219 as it enters the Aksai Chin plateau. Does anyone know what kind of facility this is?

The same quality/recency image can also be viewed at https://zoom.earth/

[AshishA]

Fascinating to see some opposition on having alliance with US/Western countries to counter China.

If only the Chinese had such dedication to their "anti-capitalist" ethos.. we wouldn't be facing a 14T power on our borders today...

While we want to stick with Russia who has half the GDP than us, and has a bigger colonial past than US.

We need a alliance similar to USSR and USA during the world war. An alliance of convenience to eliminate a third party threat which in this case is China.

If ideological enemies like USSR and USA during world war, USA and China partnership during Deng Xiaoping period can come together then why not India? But we must make it clear to them that if alliance is to become a reality, then they must cease attempts to undermine our security using their proxies like NGOs or by arming Pakis.

Btw now is the right time and place to form the alliance to defeat China. USA has realised that china is credible threat to their power and will do anything to eliminate that threat. We must exploit it to the fullest.

And If China intends to bully us, all affected nations need to gang up against him and beat the crap of him.

Let's see how they fight from East, West, North, South.

[k prasad]

Do you have any evidence for this saar? Either (a) for there being undue delays after the political go-ahead has been given, or (b) There being any sinister reasons for said delay?

To accuse some one, we don't need full evidence of the crime, sirji. The damage is there as evidence. Who gets the blame? Modiji is not against infra building. It's in the execution. Imagine Modiji losing 2019 elections. What do you think would have happened to the half completed infra?

Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is slightly shaky logic, sirjee. Evidence of damage is not the same as evidence of a crime.

To accuse someone is basically to say they WANTED this to fail. We can raise those questions about the UPA's requirement to get separate clearances for EVERY project and the delays in giving those approvals (note that I'm not saying they did it with mal-intent) since we have clear documented evidence of it in public domain. But since the approvals were given, to say that things have been delayed deliberately requires a high evidentiary standard, which you have not only not provided, but are saying does not need to be provided.

There are myriad reasons for 'delays', syamji ... Weather, lack of support infrastructure to get construction supplies to that point, small window of time for construction work (4 mths in the year), degradation of roads (damage from landslides etc need to be fixed every year), economic issues requiring prioritization of funds for other requirements, etc etc... and thats even before we get to human-negligence and delays. Building roads on steep mountains at such high elevations is not easy. What we're doing is unprecedented, even compared to road-work in Tibet which has the issues of altitude, but fewer issues on elevation gradients, mountainous terrain, and weather-related problems.

Our road connectivity in Ladakh has improved significantly in the past 6-8 years. New routes over high mountain passes, asphalt roads of good quality, etc.

Lastly, in general, when dealing with sarkari types... I believe in Hanlon's Razor "Never attribute to malice what can be easier attributed to stupidity".

[pankajs]

I'm pretty sure the Generals would have war-gamed all possible scenarios with the Chinese...

I see one possible reason for no immediate escalation from Indian side... As many posters were saying, Chinese MIC has the capacity to outlast Indian MIC...
So, in the worst-case scenario of a bloody Attrition Warfare, we may be able to defend them only for 5-6 weeks before the difference in MIC capability kicks in... So, in this case, we might prefer to escalate sometime in September or October and end it just before the snows come in and Chinese have to demobilize... Once demobilization happens, immediate re-mobilization will be more difficult... Lot of factors come into play...

I still think Govt. would prefer things to deescalate right now without a war...
But if we have to fight, I guess they will try to delay this for another 2-3 months atleast just to avoid the worst-case scenario... I don't think Govt. will wait until 2022...

Agree on the 2nd point but not the first. While out MIC may not be up to the mark, our friends will pump in what is required at a price ofcourse. Far from ideal but doable. India fighting America's war is in American interest. Same is true for most other powers who would prefer China to be brought down a notch or two preferably by someone else.

My thinking still remains that Modi wants de-escalation without conflict. Chinese want capitulation without conflict. Therefore, the Chinese have the upper hand and they can keep pushing till we push back.

[rkirankr]

It was funny to see Maj. Arya (R) earnestly tell Modi to follow Chanakya and not Sun Tzu. Does he not know about Amit Shah? And he talks in the video about going back to vedas due its being India's root. If there is one PM steeped in a knowledge of India's ancient past it is Modi (and PVN before that). Modi reveres and has presented the Bhagavad Gita to foreign leaders on many occassions.....which may be relevant here. Arjuna did not want to fight a war, and then Krishna convinced him to.

But what's the use. You cannot take 6years to come out with education policy. There has been an improvement may be in handling defense, but not substantial enough to make a difference. Not one action against corrupt. Do we have a good Air defense, much better than 6years before? 99 we ran around shopping for wares when the war was upon us. Is it any different now? The Defense forces will definitely give a superlative performance, Will we learn after that. Most glaring is their communication, which sucks On any matter.

[nishant.gupta]

I tried using Baidu maps today, but not very impressed. Resolution of satellite imageries much lower than google, and boundaries switch off at high resolution just when you can start making out features. So I gave up after a while.

https://mapper.acme.com/ is very interesting ... Resolution limited to ~ 50m.

It features Maps, Terrain, Satellite, Topo ,etc mode and has more recent updates that Google. I am using it to spot things of interest and mark them on my Google Earth install using co-ordinates.

E,g Check what the Chinese have built @ N 35.90867 E 79.21310 just off G219 as it enters the Aksai Chin plateau. Does anyone know what kind of facility this is?

The same quality/recency image can also be viewed at https://zoom.earth/

Interesting to note (I dont know what this facility is) but it came up within one year between June 2013 and July 2014...around the time we were having a political manthan back home.

[pankajs]

...They want to secure this side to take on the colonials...

I'm tempted to agree with this line, and this line only. Because, of all it's bigger enemies only India is the most C****ya (as per them). So what do they do? They want to take as much land as possible and straighten out the LAC to their advantage and convert the LAC into an LOC. Once they've done that, they've secured the back door. So they'll put a minimum force level for guarding the new LOC and move the rest of the forces towards the eastern seaboard to focus on their real enemies - US, Japan, Australia and whoever rest. The Indians (after much dhoti shivering and yellowed dhotis) will naturally be happy to see the back of the Chinese and we can proclaim victory, light diyas, bajaao taalis AND quietly go back to beating each other over COVID, NRC, whatever else. So there could be a real possibility that all this huffing and puffing by the dragon must be to ensure that we don't bite them in the back when they are fighting in the east...I mean think about it, they're business minded, there is jack s**t for them in these mountains except the CPEC. SCS is where their money is. Only if they lose there (total defeat - which is unlikely), do they have to consider this side for moving their goods through CPEC. So this current drama is them trying to secure the CPEC in the unlikely event that they do lose dominance in their eastern seas.

1. Once the Chinese sort out the colonials, they will come back to short out the Indians. Mao claimed that Tibet is like the palm of a hand, the 5 fingers being Ladakh, Nepal, Butan, Sikkim and Arunanchal. That to them would be the final boundary between India and China.

But it does not end here. After they have sorted out the "colonials", they will want their jaziya from the rest including India via BRI, unhindered market access, control of our internet, etc.

Therefore, the defeat of the current "colonials" will just mean a new "colonials" who is much more extractive and vicious.

2. CPEC might not be viable for China as a whole BUT it might be viable for Kashgar, etc.

Also, CPEC is jewel of the crown called BRI a personal project of Eleven. Knocking it off would be a personal setback for Eleven and his reputation.

Also, CPEC being knocked off is a message. To show up a person as weak beat their dog. Not to be taken literally.

To show US up beat India, the lapdog of imperialists (Chinese pov) and a message to others. In a similar vein, to show up China, to use the Chinese expression, beat the Chinese lapdog i.e. Bakistan and a message to our other neighbours. What better than to re-take GB and kill CPEC.

[abhik]

Since people are going gaga about the maal from Russia, though I'd post this to balance things out
This is from late 2016: C-17 Globemaster landing at Mechuka ALG near China Border (Arunachal Pradesh)

At an elevation of 6200 ft AMSL with a landing surface only 4200 feet long, a trial landing was carried out by the mighty C-17 Globemaster aircraft on 02 Nov 16, thereby validating its short field landing performance at high altitude. This operation demonstrated the IAF capability to reach out to this remote ALG (Advanced Landing Ground) located just 29 km from the Sino-Indian border.

We are going to rue the fact that we didn't buy more of these when we had the chance.

[nishant.gupta]

^^^^ Something wrong with image sharing through Imgur. The images can be checked using the google Earth though. I had just put screenshots.

[Mukesh.Kumar]

BRF is starting to resemble one of those Kyunki Ki Saas.... soap operas. In absence of concrete information there's an endless hand wrenching, doomsday prophecies, some old uncles fighting back asking for stiffer spines, rinse, repeat cycle going on. Understand that things are not moving at a prave that we would want to but that is no excuse for turning the forum into an echo chamber of FUD of the yellow pages and lifafa baazi masquerading as news outside.
Sad to see this state of affairs.

[pankajs]

The lack of Indigenous weapons and MIC of India is discussed a lot here. And many are expect the govt to take steps but due to various reasons they don't. Except for cosmetic changes and after that they go back to phoren imports.

The question I want to ask all the gurus here if there any way we can create a Indigenous weapons advocacy group to pressurise govt into giving indigenous weapons a chance and change their import policy? Or target a list of individuals who are purposely derailing and sabotaging indigenous weapons effort of the country?

When I was reading all these posts lament about how indigenous weapons are being ignored, I thought what can we do as individuals and as a group to change this. Tbh they (babus, some people in military etc) will continue with the ways things are unless and until someone forces them to change. And moreover Modi is just one Man he can't do it all and also fight BIF forces simultaneously, we must also help him in whatever ways we can.

Lastly, the war with China is certain. To win the upcoming war, we absolutely need indigenous weapons and a robust MIC. But a lot of the gurus here assume that it won't happen due to our phoren import addiction and chalta hai attitude towards national security. But the way I see things, if the problems are due to the eternal slumber of the govt, then it's our duty to wake them up. Make them realise, if they want to secure their Kursi then they better wake up.

Once private sector is allowed sufficiently into Defense manufacturing we will get the advocacy.

DPSUs/OFB have nothing at stake plus are hampered by babugiri in all spheres from production to quality to PR to advocacy.

[k prasad]

Since people are going gaga about the maal from Russia, though I'd post this to balance things out
This is from late 2016: C-17 Globemaster landing at Mechuka ALG near China Border (Arunachal Pradesh)

At an elevation of 6200 ft AMSL with a landing surface only 4200 feet long, a trial landing was carried out by the mighty C-17 Globemaster aircraft on 02 Nov 16, thereby validating its short field landing performance at high altitude. This operation demonstrated the IAF capability to reach out to this remote ALG (Advanced Landing Ground) located just 29 km from the Sino-Indian border.

We are going to rue the fact that we didn't buy more of these when we had the chance.

That looks like a proper paved tarmac, based both on the lack of a dust cloud, the mirage, and the colour of the concrete tarmac close to the camera. If this is indeed Mechuka, it looks like its been well developed!

[pankajs]

@syamji... these developments are happening. Certainly happening much faster since NDA took over and gave a general approval to BRO. Also look at the number of large scale tunnel projects being done in these areas, all of which will provide all-year access to areas that were previously inaccessible. Add to that the Sasoma-Saser La road alternative to the DSDBO road.

Leh to Durbuk is not an easy topography - currently, all 3 roads have to go through very high mountain passes - Khardung La, Chang La, and another pass in between them that I don't know the name of, apart from the flatter (but much longer) southern detour that goes through Nyoma and Chushul. All the passes are above 5000m in elevation, so its going to take a little time to go from having a motorable gravel path to a full blown metalled road. But BRO is working on it! Hell, I saw a video of a Lambo (low clearance and all) making it through Khardung La. We're trying to play catch-up for years of deliberate neglect and leg-dragging by multiple governments.

Sirji, I am not complaining about the road constructions. It's about long term plans. I am seeing sinister design here. The way MoD approaching this infra construction is very time consuming and by the time they reach 80% completion, Modiji term will be completed. They will roll back these things in single year if some pro-chini party comes to power.

If they are serious about it, they would have done it different way. Like - Upgrading airstrip at DBO and making it into proper base for forces. It wouldn't have taken more than 2 years to finish that. Why no action there? In demchok case they didn't even bother with any large scale constructions. I bet they gave MEA excuses to stall them.

Both bases could have taken max 3 years. We would be seeing them functional in 2018 itself if these MoD guys are serious about building any infra in that area. It's not like upgrading DBO will have any affect on road constructions. They could have roped in some private company for the upgrades.

All of it sounding like some sinister plan to stall the infra development in the area. Whenever Modji asks for progress, these traitors will show the half finished roads as progress. I think they are buying time until pro-chini government comes to power.

1. Most current project are slated to be completed by 2022 including the most critical one. There is ofcourse another bunch of border projects lined up for after that.

2. To my limited knowledge, ALG i.e Advanced Landing Ground just simply means an airstrip to supply forwards deployments that cannot be reached by normal normal route or the normal route is too tenuous and prone to disruption.

ALGs like DBO and Fukche are too close to the enemy to be of much use as an Airbase. Easily threatened during war time by placing SAMs along the Chinese controlled areas.

For DBO we need a all weather road and a backup. The DSDBO road is already complete and work on the backup via Saser pass is in progress but is slow it has to be built over a glacier i.e a moving river of ice!!!

[pankajs]

Fascinating to see some opposition on having alliance with US/Western countries to counter China.

If only the Chinese had such dedication to their "anti-capitalist" ethos.. we wouldn't be facing a 14T power on our borders today...

While we want to stick with Russia who has half the GDP than us, and has a bigger colonial past than US.

Hell .. the Chinese aligned with US to build itself and over take Russia and now are aligning with Russia to take on America!

One has to admire the Chinese for their ideological stance/purity!