India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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syam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby syam » 27 Jun 2020 15:41

k prasad wrote:Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is slightly shaky logic, sirjee. Evidence of damage is not the same as evidence of a crime.

~~snip~~

Our road connectivity in Ladakh has improved significantly in the past 6-8 years. New routes over high mountain passes, asphalt roads of good quality, etc.

Lastly, in general, when dealing with sarkari types... I believe in Hanlon's Razor "Never attribute to malice what can be easier attributed to stupidity".

It's very easy to attribute everything to stupidity. But is it really the case here?

We are talking about two different infra works here. Roads + Bases. Some 60% work is done in roads case. What about bases? what about long term implications? how long present government will stay in power? what happens if some pro-chinis gov comes back to power?

Are you really saying that MoD and MEA folks are so stupid and didn't see these implications? Mind you same folks used to harass local authorities and forces whenever they try to build any small time infra. (please check that ndtv report from 2011 i shared earlier).

Anyway we are stuck in they building n not building argument. I am of the opinion that these guys deliberately screwing the whole thing. Let me stick to my opinion. If they are really innocent and cute, I won't mind eating humble pie in future.

We have to build something at demchok. that's the need of the hour.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 15:44

When we declared in parliament that Aksai Chin and GB/PoK is a part of India, the Chinese must have felt a bit threatened and assumed that Modi will make some moves to that effect and decided to do a sneaky pre-emptive strike. It was intended to show him that even if we really wanted it, there is nothing we could do to take back our territory. Instead they could move in at will. So this was supposed to cause a public loss of face to GoI, especially to Modi.

The fact that the Chinese were sneaky about it dilutes the threat a lot. If they had declared it like we did, BEFORE they walked in, that would have shown their strength and resolution. The sneakiness shows that they are not quite confident of their power and may actually be scared of Modi.

We should take advantage of this situation and walk in to the claim areas ourselves and set up tents. Land a Chinook in the F4-F8 area and deposit a 100 soldiers there with the usual red banner asking them to leave Indian territory, with all the media cameras rolling. What will they do? (I will volunteer to go there to do this, if the IA can ok this.)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby syam » 27 Jun 2020 15:50

pankajs wrote:1. Most current project are slated to be completed by 2022 including the most critical one. There is ofcourse another bunch of border projects lined up for after that.

2. To my limited knowledge, ALG i.e Advanced Landing Ground just simply means an airstrip to supply forwards deployments that cannot be reached by normal normal route or the normal route is too tenuous and prone to disruption.

ALGs like DBO and Fukche are too close to the enemy to be of much use as an Airbase. Easily threatened during war time by placing SAMs along the Chinese controlled areas.

For DBO we need a all weather road and a backup. The DSDBO road is already complete and work on the backup via Saser pass is in progress but is slow it has to be built over a glacier i.e a moving river of ice!!!

If SAMs i.e. Surface to Air Missiles can be placed along the chinese controlled areas, we can also place SAMs i.e. Surface to Air Missiles at these bases. And look at the strategic benefits we will have if we place these batteries near by demchok.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nandakumar » 27 Jun 2020 15:57


Do Indian exporters invoice goods on CIF basis for delivery at a Chinese port? It would be unusual if they did. Most international trade is done on FOB the loading port of the exporter's country and payment received through the bank collecting the shipping documents st the port of loading.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Jun 2020 16:04

nandakumar wrote:

Do Indian exporters invoice goods on CIF basis for delivery at a Chinese port? It would be unusual if they did. Most international trade is done on FOB the loading port of the exporter's country and payment received through the bank collecting the shipping documents st the port of loading.


But Chinese will not pay or give repeat orders.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 16:05

syam wrote:
pankajs wrote:1. Most current project are slated to be completed by 2022 including the most critical one. There is ofcourse another bunch of border projects lined up for after that.

2. To my limited knowledge, ALG i.e Advanced Landing Ground just simply means an airstrip to supply forwards deployments that cannot be reached by normal normal route or the normal route is too tenuous and prone to disruption.

ALGs like DBO and Fukche are too close to the enemy to be of much use as an Airbase. Easily threatened during war time by placing SAMs along the Chinese controlled areas.

For DBO we need a all weather road and a backup. The DSDBO road is already complete and work on the backup via Saser pass is in progress but is slow it has to be built over a glacier i.e a moving river of ice!!!

If SAMs i.e. Surface to Air Missiles can be placed along the chinese controlled areas, we can also place SAMs i.e. Surface to Air Missiles at these bases. And look at the strategic benefits we will have if we place these batteries near by demchok.

What will your SAM do to their SAMs while their SAMs will disable your airfield?!! Both of us can deploy SAMs on the LAC while only you have an airbase at the location. Who suffers?

You can place your SAMs next to the Chinese position on the Indian side without construction an Airbase.
Last edited by pankajs on 27 Jun 2020 16:07, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 27 Jun 2020 16:05

syam wrote:It's very easy to attribute everything to stupidity. But is it really the case here?


It could be something more nefarious than stupidity... I just start from that assumption till facts or other information suggests something different. So far, I dont know of facts that would suggest something other than difficulty and other constraints, at least since the NDA rule change on general approval.

syam wrote:Are you really saying that MoD and MEA folks are so stupid and didn't see these implications? Mind you same folks used to harass local authorities and forces whenever they try to build any small time infra. (please check that ndtv report from 2011 i shared earlier).


Well, MOD/MEA kowtows to the sarkaari line, so if that line was not to build infrastructure so as not to upset the Chinese, yes sir, they'll happily nix everything. If that line was to ask for approvals for everything, or for the babus to try and keep all the power in their hands by requiring approval for every paper pin, they'll do it. And if finally, there is a neta who gives them the stick and stays on their back to get work done soon, it gets done. I'm just thinking that if we are to look at the past few years and get some more information. We can't blindly say that in spite of political pressure to act, MEA/MoD are deliberately hampering work.

syam wrote:Anyway we are stuck in they building n not building argument. I am of the opinion that these guys deliberately screwing the whole thing. Let me stick to my opinion. If they are really innocent and cute, I won't mind eating humble pie in future.


That's fair... just be sure to mention that it is your opinion rather than state it as fact and invite questions asking for proof :-P

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 27 Jun 2020 16:08

k prasad wrote:
syam wrote:To accuse some one, we don't need full evidence of the crime, sirji. The damage is there as evidence. Who gets the blame? Modiji is not against infra building. It's in the execution. Imagine Modiji losing 2019 elections. What do you think would have happened to the half completed infra?


Not to put too fine a point on it, but that is slightly shaky logic, sirjee. Evidence of damage is not the same as evidence of a crime.

To accuse someone is basically to say they WANTED this to fail. We can raise those questions about the UPA's requirement to get separate clearances for EVERY project and the delays in giving those approvals (note that I'm not saying they did it with mal-intent) since we have clear documented evidence of it in public domain. But since the approvals were given, to say that things have been delayed deliberately requires a high evidentiary standard, which you have not only not provided, but are saying does not need to be provided.

There are myriad reasons for 'delays', syamji ... Weather, lack of support infrastructure to get construction supplies to that point, small window of time for construction work (4 mths in the year), degradation of roads (damage from landslides etc need to be fixed every year), economic issues requiring prioritization of funds for other requirements, etc etc... and thats even before we get to human-negligence and delays. Building roads on steep mountains at such high elevations is not easy. What we're doing is unprecedented, even compared to road-work in Tibet which has the issues of altitude, but fewer issues on elevation gradients, mountainous terrain, and weather-related problems.

Our road connectivity in Ladakh has improved significantly in the past 6-8 years. New routes over high mountain passes, asphalt roads of good quality, etc.

Lastly, in general, when dealing with sarkari types... I believe in Hanlon's Razor "Never attribute to malice what can be easier attributed to stupidity".



I see, our infrastructure was terrible, not because of UPA, it's better now magically? They would've shrink wrapped DBO and asked whether the payment (to the "foundation") would be by card or cash by now

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 16:16

rajpa wrote:We should take advantage of this situation and walk in to the claim areas ourselves and set up tents. Land a Chinook in the F4-F8 area and deposit a 100 soldiers there with the usual red banner asking them to leave Indian territory, with all the media cameras rolling. What will they do? (I will volunteer to go there to do this, if the IA can ok this.)

You think they would not have thought of this?!! I am pretty sure they their troops at the top of the ridge line are armed with SAMs to prevent any heliborne operations just like you have visualized.

Now, one can justly ask, will the Chinese shoot down the helli without starting a war? It is a valid question.

To that, I will ask a reverse question. Supposing the Chinese shoot down the heli and its load, will you (India) take the war to them?!! IFFFF not we better not try pulling such a stunt. We will loose an heli, an iconic heli at that and 20/30 troops in the process and hand the the Chinese a massive propaganda victory!

When thinking of an action, always think of the reaction and your counter to the reaction ONLY then suggest any step. The Bakis are forever guilty of not thinking through if they are willing to cover for a gambit before making the gambit and we should not emulate them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby syam » 27 Jun 2020 16:17

pankajs wrote:What will your SAM do to their SAMs while their SAMs will disable your airfield?!! Both of us can deploy SAMs on the LAC while only you have an airbase at the location. Who suffers?

Few batteries at demchok. demchok!!!. :) check the location on map. also check PLAAF bases' locations.
You can place your SAMs next to the Chinese position on the Indian side without construction an Airbase.

Airbase has its own use. Here I am not asking for just airbase. An airstrip + proper military base which can host few jets in emergency situations.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 16:27

pankajs wrote:
rajpa wrote:We should take advantage of this situation and walk in to the claim areas ourselves and set up tents. Land a Chinook in the F4-F8 area and deposit a 100 soldiers there with the usual red banner asking them to leave Indian territory, with all the media cameras rolling. What will they do? (I will volunteer to go there to do this, if the IA can ok this.)

You think they would not have thought of this?!! I am pretty sure they their troops at the top of the ridge line are armed with SAMs to prevent any heliborne operations just like you have visualized.

Now, one can justly ask, will the Chinese shoot down the helli without starting a war? It is a valid question.

To that, I will ask a reverse question. Supposing the Chinese shoot down the heli and its load, will you (India) take the war to them?!! IFFFF not we better not try pulling such a stunt. We will loose an heli, an iconic heli at that and 20/30 troops in the process and hand the the Chinese a massive propaganda victory!

When thinking of an action, always think of the reaction and your counter to the reaction ONLY then suggest any step. The Bakis are forever guilty of not thinking through if they are willing to cover for a gambit before making the gambit and we should not emulate them.


Well, the Chinese are not supposed to shoot as long as we are only in disputed territory. Both sides have accepted protocols not to shoot anything.

If this whole operation is advertised well before as "Peace March" with some civilian candlekissers as well to F4-F8 and brought to the world's attention, the chances of any Chinese attempt at shootdown will be minimal. This will be another Tianenmen moment.

I will be happy to settle down there with my chaiwalla and cook till the dispute is settled. :mrgreen:
Last edited by rajpa on 27 Jun 2020 16:31, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 27 Jun 2020 16:31

I think I made a mistake by not studying the maps and taking most info from the shrill news channels. I have understood that PLA can never threaten Leh. Infact once we have built up the infra and if Chinese are tied down in the east (Taiwan etc), then nothing will prevent us from breaking up Tibet and Xinjiang. And i believe the Chinese are scared of this and want to remove that threat before they focus all their energy towards east. All the action in Depsang is to retake the plains that are in Indian control to deny India a staging ground for Armor assault on AC highway and threaten their G219. They are putting pressure on Galwan as that's the nearest point for them to interdict DSDBO road and possibly easiest for them to bring in mechanised (not Armor) columns to run north on DSDBO to create a flank for their main attack in Depsang - due to geography I suspect that India cannot put up very strong defences till Murgo. The action in Pangong Lake is to flank the South Lake where they can create a beachhead kind of situation to land forces from their bases which lie at eastern tip of Pangong. They would be planning yo make a dash for Demchok through Chushul again to protect their G219. Again I would request to correct or educate me on my assumptions - no personal name calling pls.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 16:32

syam wrote:
pankajs wrote:What will your SAM do to their SAMs while their SAMs will disable your airfield?!! Both of us can deploy SAMs on the LAC while only you have an airbase at the location. Who suffers?

Few batteries at demchok. demchok!!!. :) check the location on map. also check PLAAF bases' locations.
You can place your SAMs next to the Chinese position on the Indian side without construction an Airbase.

Airbase has its own use. Here I am not asking for just airbase. An airstrip + proper military base which can host few jets in emergency situations.

1. Which SAM are you placing @ Demchok to block the nearest Chinese Airbase?

2. BTW which ALG did you want converted to an Airbase?

You know that every reply has a context. IIRC, you wanted DBO ALG to be upgraded to an Airfield. Chinese have no Airbase around that areas. BOTH India and China deploy SAMs in the DBO/Depsang area on their own side. Whose airfield gets blocked? Lets dig into that scenario further if you want.

3. Yes you were asking for DBO ALG to be converted into an Airbase that can host "a few" jets in emergency. As a Chinese, I would just move a mobile SAM in the Akash class just across the Karakoram pass which is ~15 km from the middle of the DBO airstrip. What will you do next?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nandakumar » 27 Jun 2020 16:39

Aditya_V wrote:
nandakumar wrote:Do Indian exporters invoice goods on CIF basis for delivery at a Chinese port? It would be unusual if they did. Most international trade is done on FOB the loading port of the exporter's country and payment received through the bank collecting the shipping documents st the port of loading.


But Chinese will not pay or give repeat orders.

Agree with you about repeat orders. But not paying for what has been put on board a ship loading for a Chinese port? I doubt it. Think of a situation. An Indian exporter has an order for some goods from a Chinese importer. The Indian exporter asks for an LC to be opened in his favour against shipping documents for loading at an Indian port. The exporter's bank, say SBI, will have a correspondent bank relationship with another bank such as HSBC in India, which in turn will have similar arrangement with a Chinese bank such as ICBC in China the importer's in China. HSBC in India cannot deny payments to SBI if the shipping documents are in order.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 27 Jun 2020 16:42

Larry Walker wrote:I think I made a mistake by not studying the maps and taking most info from the shrill news channels. I have understood that PLA can never threaten Leh. Infact once we have built up the infra and if Chinese are tied down in the east (Taiwan etc), then nothing will prevent us from breaking up Tibet and Xinjiang. And i believe the Chinese are scared of this and want to remove that threat before they focus all their energy towards east. All the action in Depsang is to retake the plains that are in Indian control to deny India a staging ground for Armor assault on AC highway and threaten their G219. They are putting pressure on Galwan as that's the nearest point for them to interdict DSDBO road and possibly easiest for them to bring in mechanised (not Armor) columns to run north on DSDBO to create a flank for their main attack in Depsang - due to geography I suspect that India cannot put up very strong defences till Murgo. The action in Pangong Lake is to flank the South Lake where they can create a beachhead kind of situation to land forces from their bases which lie at eastern tip of Pangong. They would be planning yo make a dash for Demchok through Chushul again to protect their G219. Again I would request to correct or educate me on my assumptions - no personal name calling pls.


If we manage to to break up Tibet, then it would be for the first time in the history of humankind a 3T GDP economy managed to break a larger country with almost 5 times the GDP and 3 times the defense budget and the 2nd or 3rd largest Military Industrial complex in the world and a nuke power.

While we are waiting for money to sign a contract for 83 local fighters..

What are the chances of that happening?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 16:44

rajpa wrote:
pankajs wrote:You think they would not have thought of this?!! I am pretty sure they their troops at the top of the ridge line are armed with SAMs to prevent any heliborne operations just like you have visualized.

Now, one can justly ask, will the Chinese shoot down the helli without starting a war? It is a valid question.

To that, I will ask a reverse question. Supposing the Chinese shoot down the heli and its load, will you (India) take the war to them?!! IFFFF not we better not try pulling such a stunt. We will loose an heli, an iconic heli at that and 20/30 troops in the process and hand the the Chinese a massive propaganda victory!

When thinking of an action, always think of the reaction and your counter to the reaction ONLY then suggest any step. The Bakis are forever guilty of not thinking through if they are willing to cover for a gambit before making the gambit and we should not emulate them.


Well, the Chinese are not supposed to shoot as long as we are only in disputed territory. Both sides have accepted protocols not to shoot anything.

If this whole operation is advertised well before as "Peace March" with some civilian candlekissers as well to F4-F8 and brought to the world's attention, the chances of any Chinese attempt at shootdown will be minimal. This will be another Tianenmen moment.

I will be happy to settle down there with my chaiwalla and cook till the dispute is settled. :mrgreen:

You think the Chinese think and behave like you.

We have also many other agreements with the Chinese on "maintaining peace and tranquility" at the border BUT all I am hearing from GOI is that the Chinese are not upholding their part of the bargain. What makes you think they will keep upholding their part of not to shoot. They will just claim that you have invaded their territory.

YES unsettled border/Gray zone is "Tianenmen square" in the middle of Beijing. As far as kandle Kissres are concerned, I, as a Chinese propagandist, would welcome them to a grand tea on the Chinese northern bank of Pangang Tso AFTER granting them a visa and I will agree to pick them up using my boat from the Indian side. No heli business.

You want to roll with me on that?! :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 27 Jun 2020 16:46

Raveen wrote:I see, our infrastructure was terrible, not because of UPA, it's better now magically? They would've shrink wrapped DBO and asked whether the payment (to the "foundation") would be by card or cash by now


I have no idea what that means Raveen gaaru, but simple fact is that many of the projects that are underway currently were planned during the UPA regime, but are moving at a brisk pace right now. The Atal tunnel, Syama (aka SPM) tunnel, Zoji La tunnel, Z-Morh tunnel, Banihal Qazigund Road Tunnel, etc. Plus, DBO and Fukche were activated during UPA-II. But they're moving much faster at the moment. Why? Is it just the natural acceleration of progress once a project moves out of planning stage, or was it due to specific support from the government?

No improvement is magical - it just requires support and work. What we know is that during the UPA regime, there was a temerity to improving infrastructure in the ladakh border regions, and excessive regulation in approval process. The latter certainly changed with the NDA regime. We need to see if they are more bold on improving infrastructure on the border, but indications suggest this to be the case.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 27 Jun 2020 16:49

Eh, when the 10 was returned there would be no action but posturing by both sides. Just like after Abhi waa released.

Neither side wants kinetic action. If the PLA wanted shooting to happen they would never released the 10 -- ESPECIALLY after 43 of theirs were taken down by 16 Bihar. If they wanted war, that battle would have been the perfect excuse for starting any offensive they planned. Releasing the 10 was a peace offering. And knowing our people, we would not take the 10 and then turn around and attack.

There will be no war just tension and build up on both sides.

The only thing that has changed is the chinis will not bite the bullet and staff a massive multi lakh force in Tibet going forward.

We should have overwhelmed their three brigades during Doklam. But that no longer matters. We will see a LOC on the chini border now too with troops locked in place. No unarmed patrols like before. We will need boots on the ground for every inch we claim the same for them. I doubt we will be exchanging artillery rounds with the chini like we do with the pakis at Siachen since things can escalate rather more quickly out of control here.
Last edited by chola on 27 Jun 2020 16:49, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 16:49

pankajs wrote:
rajpa wrote:
Well, the Chinese are not supposed to shoot as long as we are only in disputed territory. Both sides have accepted protocols not to shoot anything.

If this whole operation is advertised well before as "Peace March" with some civilian candlekissers as well to F4-F8 and brought to the world's attention, the chances of any Chinese attempt at shootdown will be minimal. This will be another Tianenmen moment.

I will be happy to settle down there with my chaiwalla and cook till the dispute is settled. :mrgreen:

You think the Chinese think and behave like you.

We have also many other agreements with the Chinese on "maintaining peace and tranquility" at the border BUT all I am hearing from GOI is that the Chinese are not upholding their part of the bargain. What makes you think they will keep upholding their part of not to shoot. They will just claim that you have invaded their territory.

YES unsettled border/Gray zone is "Tianenmen square" in the middle of Beijing. As far as kandle Kissres are concerned, I, as a Chinese propagandist, would welcome them to a grand tea on the Chinese northern bank of Pangang Tso AFTER granting them a visa and I will agree to pick them up using my boat from the Indian side. No heli business.

You want to roll with me on that?! :mrgreen:


This whole thing has to be globally televised and in total public view and LIVE across the world. Will they shoot down a heli coming in for a Peace Landing in disputed territory with soldiers and civilians? Then their perfidy will be there for the whole world to see.

I have no problem with drinking tea, whosoever may serve it. :mrgreen:

Offering visa can be done only if the territory is your sovereign, not if it is disputed, which the F4-F8 area is well known to be.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby syam » 27 Jun 2020 16:53

pankajs wrote:1. Which SAM are you placing @ Demchok to block the nearest Chinese Airbase?

2. BTW which ALG did you want converted to an Airbase?

You know that every reply has a context. IIRC, you wanted DBO ALG to be upgraded to an Airfield. Chinese have no Airbase around that areas. BOTH India and China deploy SAMs in the DBO/Depsang area on their own side. Whose airfield gets blocked? Lets dig into that scenario further if you want.

3. Yes you were asking for DBO ALG to be converted into an Airbase that can host "a few" jets in emergency. As a Chinese, I would just move a mobile SAM in the Akash class just across the Karakoram pass which is ~15 km from the middle of the DBO airstrip. What will you do next?

You obviously didn't read my posts. I didn't ask for DBO 'Airbase'. I stressed on Demchok in every post.

I also asked for upgrade works for DBO. Not to make it into 'AIrbase', If you bothered to check the current state of airstrip, you would have noticed the 'run way''.

Why I am asking for proper base(more than just airbase) at demchok?

That's the only strategic location we have in ladhak area which can reduce the PLA threat. Are you really asking me to explain how SAMs shoot aircrafts in depth? Or which SAM will be effective in that area? Or how far near by PLAAF base is? :-?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 17:00

rajpa wrote:
pankajs wrote:You think the Chinese think and behave like you.

We have also many other agreements with the Chinese on "maintaining peace and tranquility" at the border BUT all I am hearing from GOI is that the Chinese are not upholding their part of the bargain. What makes you think they will keep upholding their part of not to shoot. They will just claim that you have invaded their territory.

YES unsettled border/Gray zone is "Tianenmen square" in the middle of Beijing. As far as kandle Kissres are concerned, I, as a Chinese propagandist, would welcome them to a grand tea on the Chinese northern bank of Pangang Tso AFTER granting them a visa and I will agree to pick them up using my boat from the Indian side. No heli business.

You want to roll with me on that?! :mrgreen:


This whole thing has to be globally televised and in total public view and LIVE across the world. Will they shoot down a heli coming in for a Peace Landing in disputed territory with soldiers and civilians? Then their perfidy will be there for the whole world to see.

I have no problem with drinking tea, whosoever may serve it. :mrgreen:

Offering visa can be done only if the territory is your sovereign, not if it is disputed, which the F4-F8 area is well known to be.

1. Chinook is a mil hel, not an airtaxi that can be hired. I, as a Chinese will shoot it down with Shoulder fired SAMs as soon as it approaches anywhere near the F4-8 area.

2. IF it has soldier as part of the party, that is reason enough to justify shooting it down in front of international media. Uninvited soldiers are never part of a peace delegation and this is no UN peace keeping force set.

3. Even UN peace keepers need prior approval of both side to operate. Any Soldier trying to cross without express Chinese permission would be considered a combatant and the whole mission an invasion.

4. Even kandle kissers need Visa to cross Wagha on either side! Apply for Chinese Visa and come have high tea on Proper Chinese territory on the Chinese side of the Northern banks of Pangang Tso between F4-8. I will make that offer on International TV. I will personally serve tea to Indians who accept Chinese visa to visit that area. :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 17:05

If you shoot a Peace Landing heli there will be global disapproval of Chinese for another Tiananmen massacre.

Are you prepared to roll with me on that?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 27 Jun 2020 17:10

There is not going to be any global cry. Get that right.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 27 Jun 2020 17:11

nam wrote:If we manage to to break up Tibet, then it would be for the first time in the history of humankind a 3T GDP economy managed to break a larger country with almost 5 times the GDP and 3 times the defense budget and the 2nd or 3rd largest Military Industrial complex in the world and a nuke power.

While we are waiting for money to sign a contract for 83 local fighters..

What are the chances of that happening?


Not in a direct conflict - but if forces are arrayed against Chinese on its eastern sea board - then they can't spare much for its India border. So my assumption is that Chinese are encroaching exactly in those areas from where they perceive that India can cut-off G219. Denying any space on AC plateau for us to deploy Armor - so bottling us up at Y-Junction and trying to still squeeze us west. And by taking over north shore of Pangong lake - remove any threat for their beachhead on south shore. The current deployments behind these encroachments is to challenge India to a short border war if India tries to retake these positions back. So I believe that neither India not China are planning a broader war. I am suspecting that Chinese are calculating that Modi will try to do a Vajpayee and will declare that Indian forces only objective is to restore status-quo as of April'20. While this will ensure that war doesn't spread but will also provide Chinese the opportunity to apply it's superior MIC without too much fear kf conflict spreading across LAC. So Chinese have thrown the gauntlet to Modi - come and reclaim the latest incursions and using that opportunity to teach us a lesson.
Last edited by Larry Walker on 27 Jun 2020 17:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 17:12

There will be, if the global media is aligned. The TRPs will be through the roof.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 17:15

syam wrote:
pankajs wrote:1. Which SAM are you placing @ Demchok to block the nearest Chinese Airbase?

2. BTW which ALG did you want converted to an Airbase?

You know that every reply has a context. IIRC, you wanted DBO ALG to be upgraded to an Airfield. Chinese have no Airbase around that areas. BOTH India and China deploy SAMs in the DBO/Depsang area on their own side. Whose airfield gets blocked? Lets dig into that scenario further if you want.

3. Yes you were asking for DBO ALG to be converted into an Airbase that can host "a few" jets in emergency. As a Chinese, I would just move a mobile SAM in the Akash class just across the Karakoram pass which is ~15 km from the middle of the DBO airstrip. What will you do next?

You obviously didn't read my posts. I didn't ask for DBO 'Airbase'. I stressed on Demchok in every post[/u][/b].

I also asked for upgrade works for DBO. Not to make it into 'AIrbase', If you bothered to check the current state of airstrip, you would have noticed the 'run way''.

Why I am asking for proper base(more than just airbase) at demchok?

That's the only strategic location we have in ladhak area which can reduce the PLA threat. Are you really asking me to explain how SAMs shoot aircrafts in depth? Or which SAM will be effective in that area? Or how far near by PLAAF base is? :-?

You reference was to both DBO & Demchok while my reply was limited to DBO. We are talking past each other.

Demchok does need upgradation.

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&start=4000#p2443635
pankajs wrote:
syam wrote:Sirji, I am not complaining about the road constructions. It's about long term plans. I am seeing sinister design here. The way MoD approaching this infra construction is very time consuming and by the time they reach 80% completion, Modiji term will be completed. They will roll back these things in single year if some pro-chini party comes to power.

If they are serious about it, they would have done it different way. Like - Upgrading airstrip at DBO and making it into proper base for forces. It wouldn't have taken more than 2 years to finish that. Why no action there? In demchok case they didn't even bother with any large scale constructions. I bet they gave MEA excuses to stall them.

Both bases could have taken max 3 years. We would be seeing them functional in 2018 itself if these MoD guys are serious about building any infra in that area. It's not like upgrading DBO will have any affect on road constructions. They could have roped in some private company for the upgrades.

All of it sounding like some sinister plan to stall the infra development in the area. Whenever Modji asks for progress, these traitors will show the half finished roads as progress. I think they are buying time until pro-chini government comes to power.

1. Most current project are slated to be completed by 2022 including the most critical one. There is ofcourse another bunch of border projects lined up for after that.

2. To my limited knowledge, ALG i.e Advanced Landing Ground just simply means an airstrip to supply forwards deployments that cannot be reached by normal normal route or the normal route is too tenuous and prone to disruption.

ALGs like DBO and Fukche are too close to the enemy to be of much use as an Airbase. Easily threatened during war time by placing SAMs along the Chinese controlled areas.

For DBO we need a all weather road and a backup. The DSDBO road is already complete and work on the backup via Saser pass is in progress but is slow it has to be built over a glacier i.e a moving river of ice!!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RKumar » 27 Jun 2020 17:17

If I read the tea leaves right, all parties are making the moves and setting the stage for a big show. Hopefully, we can delay the action a bit more. No side is willing to back and Napak will try to benefit from the situation. It has to be seen if they themselves join or only handover the PoK to Chene. But they are in bed with them and know some of Chene plans. It has to be seen reserved 50% beds are for PA or PLA, either way their is Love between them :lol:

I personally think we should first recover Ladakh area under Chene and then focus on PoK provided we are able to hold our lines. And to ensure that we should fire first shots as enemy is on our land.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 27 Jun 2020 17:17

And looking at the maps - I think Chinese have pickup incursion points that they can sustain logistics through winter without having to pull back. Infact - if they are no evicted by winter - Indian positions opposite them become weaker since we have greater logistic challenges on our side for those specific areas.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 17:20

rajpa wrote:If you shoot a Peace Landing heli there will be global disapproval of Chinese for another Tiananmen massacre.

Are you prepared to roll with me on that?

A military heli (chinook) with soldiers approaching Chinese area without permission will be shot down.

A peace mission does not display such characteristics. It will not be another "Tiananmen " and will not generate a global outcry. It will cause some consternation in some circle and US state department will perhaps issue a statement just like it did after the Galwan clash. As a Chinese I will roll with that.

I am still ready to receive peacenicks for high tea on the Chinese side of the northern bank of the Pangang Tso bang in the middle of F4-8 provided they get Chinese visa. :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TKiran » 27 Jun 2020 17:26

Gurus, I am thinking Modi's thinking is like this...

India has two advantages

a. Supply lines - Hans have to procure their supplies atleast 2500 km away and transport to single princes at LAC.

But India's supply lines are less than 200 km at the maximum.

But this advantage has been blunted by Hans by building railway line to Lhasa and further. Also Nepal can supply, Pakistan can supply for them. As we are not going to knock off their supply lines, as it's not Dharma to snatch away food and other supplies to hungry single princes, even though they are enemies. (It's not just Modi, even in one of the videos, our soldiers are offering water to single princes who came to fight with us. What a magnanimity and Karuna...)

b. Come winter, it snows so heavy that even if India itself, along with Nepal and Pakistan want to supply single princes, they will not be able to do that. Food can be stored as chocolates, dry fruits, etc, but what about water, oxygen, medicine etc?

So the single princes are going to vacate their dugged in positions in LAC, in October, to come back in April.

So offer China endless talks chai biscoot till October. We can occupy the places vacated by the single princes and declare victory. Classic sun Tzu in play, "win without fighting". Thus we can teach a lesson to China.

If Hans attack in July, play defence till October, and once they are cut off from G219 launch offence and killing the enemy in October or November is Dharma only.

This is what is happening.

By the end of August, Wuhan virus also will disappear from India. So all is well.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby syam » 27 Jun 2020 17:27

pankajs wrote:You reference was to both DBO & Demchok while my reply was limited to DBO. We are talking past each other.

Upgrading airstrip at DBO and making it into proper base for forces.

means whatever runway we have there, needs serious upgrade. Making it into proper base means - our forces can stay there for extended periods of time and also it can provide good logistics.

Don't know what's not clear in that post. :-?
Last edited by syam on 27 Jun 2020 17:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 17:27

pankajs wrote:
rajpa wrote:If you shoot a Peace Landing heli there will be global disapproval of Chinese for another Tiananmen massacre.

Are you prepared to roll with me on that?

A military heli (chinook) with soldiers approaching Chinese area without permission will be shot down.

A peace mission does not display such characteristics. It will not be another "Tiananmen " and will not generate a global outcry. It will cause some consternation in some circle and US state department will perhaps issue a statement just like it did after the Galwan clash. As a Chinese I will roll with that.

I am still ready to receive peacenicks for high tea on the Chinese side of the northern bank of the Pangang Tso bang in the middle of F4-8 provided they get Chinese visa. :mrgreen:


You are not quite getting this right. It is a joint army-civilian mission for peace telecast live on global media. Nobody should object to it including yourself.

Just chill and lets all have some tea on Pangong Tso till the gobarmants sort out the matter. Ok bro?

Nuff said.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby madhu » 27 Jun 2020 17:29

Larry Walker wrote:And looking at the maps - I think Chinese have pickup incursion points that they can sustain logistics through winter without having to pull back. Infact - if they are no evicted by winter - Indian positions opposite them become weaker since we have greater logistic challenges on our side for those specific areas.

I dont understand why dont we go and grab a few area that are strategically important and tough to defend by china. If possible stretch their army. Why we are always in defensive mode.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Jun 2020 17:30

syam wrote:You obviously didn't read my posts. I didn't ask for DBO 'Airbase'. I stressed on Demchok in every post.

I also asked for upgrade works for DBO. Not to make it into 'AIrbase', If you bothered to check the current state of airstrip, you would have noticed the 'run way''.

Why I am asking for proper base(more than just airbase) at demchok?

That's the only strategic location we have in ladhak area which can reduce the PLA threat. Are you really asking me to explain how SAMs shoot aircrafts in depth? Or which SAM will be effective in that area? Or how far near by PLAAF base is? :-?


Demchok is the only strategic location in Ladakh which can reduce PLA threat?

Care to explain that....

Have you been to Demchok to understand the geography?

Do you know what AD assets we have there?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 17:33

rajpa wrote:
pankajs wrote:A military heli (chinook) with soldiers approaching Chinese area without permission will be shot down.

A peace mission does not display such characteristics. It will not be another "Tiananmen " and will not generate a global outcry. It will cause some consternation in some circle and US state department will perhaps issue a statement just like it did after the Galwan clash. As a Chinese I will roll with that.

I am still ready to receive peacenicks for high tea on the Chinese side of the northern bank of the Pangang Tso bang in the middle of F4-8 provided they get Chinese visa. :mrgreen:


You are not quite getting this right. It is a [b]joint army-civilian mission for peace telecast live on global media[/b]. Nobody should object to it including yourself.

Just chill and lets all have some tea on Pangong Tso till the gobarmants sort out the matter. Ok bro?

Nuff said.

UNINVITED civilians are shot at borders!!!

A party consisting of uninvited soldiers in a Heli would be considered an invasion and WILL be shot down. The global media will cover it as much as they covered Galwan which was not much.

OTOH, I, as a Chinese propagandist am myself inviting Indian peacenicks for high tea BUT on Chinese visa. There is you globally televised peace mission.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 17:38

It will not be considered an invasion if we are going to an area disputed by India and China, where Indians have also been patrolling. There is even a video of Indian soldiers patrolling the particular area in 2019. We are going with the Indian army for a peace patrol.

Create such an anticipation for this event that Chinese won't dare to shoot down a peacekeeping mission in a disputed area. This has to be media managed like a proper morcha type event. Pump up the media across the world before doing it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby idan » 27 Jun 2020 17:40

Why can't we intrude into Chinese territory and stay put like Dokalam?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby syam » 27 Jun 2020 17:48

ks_sachin wrote:Demchok is the only strategic location in Ladakh which can reduce PLA threat?

Care to explain that....

Have you been to Demchok to understand the geography?

Do you know what AD assets we have there?

DBO road is already under threat. (PP14, Recent build up at Depsang la). Lake area is under similar threat. We are stopped at finger 3. Don't know any other place where we have 'easy' access to and also threaten chinis assets for real. :-?

Also what's with this 'you' 'you' 'you'. Are you privy to some knowledge which I don't have access to? Please share your side of story.
Last edited by syam on 27 Jun 2020 17:52, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 27 Jun 2020 17:51

Regarding Finger 4, all people have to do is look at google map. You go up the ridge and you can out flank the Chinese position.

The only thing IA has to do is outflank them and sit down... if we really want to.

Based on public data we don't know if IA has done this..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 17:55

rajpa wrote:It will not be considered an invasion if we are going to an area disputed by India and China, where Indians have also been patrolling. There is even a video of Indian soldiers patrolling the particular area in 2019. We are going with the Indian army for a peace patrol.

Create such an anticipation for this event that Chinese won't dare to shoot down a peacekeeping mission in a disputed area. This has to be media managed like a proper morcha type event. Pump up the media across the world before doing it.

Your feeling will not matter.

A Mil heli with Soldiers is all the reason a Chinese needs to shoot it down approaching what they consider their territory.

Global media will ask India ...
1. Why did you have to do a heli drop over the objections from the Chinese?
2. Why were soldiers part of a "peace party"?
3. Why was it done at such a sensitive time?
4. Why did the "peace party" not approach the Chinese for permission?

This is IFFFF it is neutral. OTOH, most of the Global media opinion makers is in one way or another captured by the Chinese. Plus the Global media is conditioned by our stalwarts to disbelieve Indians. Coverage on any issue of importance to India should make this clear.

Game, set and match China on the "peace party".


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