India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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hanumadu
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby hanumadu » 27 Jun 2020 17:57

Is air power the only way to disrupt their supplies by bombing G219 and other arterial roads that supply to their forward bases? G219 is about 50 to 100 miles from LAC, a distance special forces can easily cover on plain land but probably much more difficult in mountainous terrain at such a height. If it is possible, we should simply send our Spl Forces to put a few craters at strategic locations on their supply routes. Now that they have increased their strength at the LAC, the supply lines have to be steady to feed the pigs.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 18:03

pankajs wrote:
rajpa wrote:It will not be considered an invasion if we are going to an area disputed by India and China, where Indians have also been patrolling. There is even a video of Indian soldiers patrolling the particular area in 2019. We are going with the Indian army for a peace patrol.

Create such an anticipation for this event that Chinese won't dare to shoot down a peacekeeping mission in a disputed area. This has to be media managed like a proper morcha type event. Pump up the media across the world before doing it.

Your feeling will not matter.

A Mil heli with Soldiers is all the reason a Chinese needs to shoot it down approaching what they consider their territory.

Global media will ask India ...
1. Why did you have to do a heli drop over the objections from the Chinese?
2. Why were soldiers part of a "peace party"?
3. Why was it done at such a sensitive time?
4. Why did the "peace party" not approach the Chinese for permission?

This is IFFFF it is neutral. OTOH, most of the Global media opinion makers is in one way or another captured by the Chinese. Plus the Global media is conditioned by our stalwarts to disbelieve Indians. Coverage on any issue of importance to India should make this clear.

Game, set and match China on the "peace party".


Its the same answer for all your 4 questions.

Because it is disputed territory where Indians have been patrolling for years. We have every right to patrol there, especially in peace.

This is not tennis, but high stakes brinkmanship. Just chill bro.

Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Jun 2020 18:25

Remember, 1962, where we sent soldiers as part of forward policy without back up, we need to be like CHo la in 1967, if we are sending soldiers we should first have the ROE, Logistics, air defence etc sorted out. The Chinese would love for us to do a 1962, thats what the Rahul Gandhi and Ajay Suklaw types are pushing us to do.

Rather we need to get everything in place and then do whats needs to be done. The FInger area is tough, much better to take them on in Spangur and then sort out the Finger area, we must have plans to recover Demchok etc...

The Chinese were very strategic in 1962, the placed themselves in all the flat land in Eastern Ladakh and claimed it, making it unusable for airfields etc.

I hope are planning it well this time.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 27 Jun 2020 18:26

Some general points for those of us advising the army on what it should do, or cooking up strategies to liberate Tibet:

None of us on this forum know what assets the IA and IAF have in Ladakh (what is in the public domain - e.g. the Orbat of Northern Command & XIV corps, is almost certain to be different now). The only thing we do know from the PLA 's Orbat is that they are unlikely to have a manpower
advantage anywhere on the LAC.

Indian army doctrine is to defend our territory, not liberate Tibet. That is sensible considering that we do no have the numbers necessary for
offensive operations in the mountains. If somehow we succeed, we won't have the logistics necessary to cover the long distances, nor the reserves of weapons & ammunition. The Chinese also do not have the numerical superiority necessary to get past our defences and threaten Leh, or any other major base.

We know there are Chinese armored forces in the Depsang area, because the only places along the LAC where armored forces can be used in larger formations are the Depsang plain and Demchok. For that reason, we too have our tanks there. I will believe the Chinese have a S-400 near the LAC when the IAF says so.

Airbases (and SAM's) can't be placed within artillery range of the enemy. It makes more sense for our aircraft to take off from bases in the plains (low altitude payload advantage) which are well defended with radar and SAMs, than a base at high altitude.

One of the satellite photo analysts the media relies on is a 22 y.o who, because he has white skin, conned people into believing he could interpret
satellite pics. I know this because another `analyst' who comes on TV is a kid who interned with me and knows bugger all about defence.
Our RISAT 2B satellites (launched in 2019 with upgraded cameras) lets the army know what it needs to.

Its also amusing to see people who can't figure out from google maps, if they should take a flyover, or a side road when driving, are now experts on where the LAC is, where our forces and the enemy are etc.

I have not served in Uniform, but to research my book, I did spend some time at high altitude in North Sikkim just after Doklam.
My VP of operations in the company I ran, was a Kargil veteran and instructor at HAWS and gave me gyan on high altitude warfare.
Only when one sees the terrain and the effects of high altitude can one put aside notions of masses of men and tanks rushing forward to liberate Tibet etc.
Last edited by Deans on 27 Jun 2020 18:33, edited 2 times in total.

pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 18:27

rajpa wrote:
pankajs wrote:Your feeling will not matter.

A Mil heli with Soldiers is all the reason a Chinese needs to shoot it down approaching what they consider their territory.

Global media will ask India ...
1. Why did you have to do a heli drop over the objections from the Chinese?
2. Why were soldiers part of a "peace party"?
3. Why was it done at such a sensitive time?
4. Why did the "peace party" not approach the Chinese for permission?

This is IFFFF it is neutral. OTOH, most of the Global media opinion makers is in one way or another captured by the Chinese. Plus the Global media is conditioned by our stalwarts to disbelieve Indians. Coverage on any issue of importance to India should make this clear.

Game, set and match China on the "peace party".


Its the same answer for all your 4 questions.

Because it is disputed territory where Indians have been patrolling for years. We have every right to patrol there, especially in peace.

This is not tennis, but high stakes brinkmanship. Just chill bro.

That's right ... its is a place for Military to deal and a clash will get as much coverage as Galwan! A heli full of soldiers will probably get a tad bit more coverage as compared to Galwan especially when it involves the US made "Chinook" and what ever little coverage the stunt will get will be propaganda victory for the Chinese.

Peacenicks are not supposed to be in an active area and the 4 question will puncture the "peace" narrative along with a "Mil heli" + "Soldier in pace party" stunt.

We are unable to distinguish between a flimi script and real life scenarios.

pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 18:30

In other news, apart from S-300/400, the following air defense systems are deployed on the Chinese side.

https://twitter.com/KUNALBI25146617/sta ... 1251955712
This is a news from 2015,we knew HQ-9 deployed at Tibet, besides they have HQ-7A SAM, HQ-16 SAM and NH-6 MANPADS

They are part pf 76th Air Defense Brigade

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Y I Patel » 27 Jun 2020 18:30

pankajs wrote:

ALGs like DBO and Fukche are too close to the enemy to be of much use as an Airbase. Easily threatened during war time by placing SAMs along the Chinese controlled areas.

For DBO we need a all weather road and a backup. The DSDBO road is already complete and work on the backup via Saser pass is in progress but is slow it has to be built over a glacier i.e a moving river of ice!!!


The Chinese have built an observation tower overlooking Fukche

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 27 Jun 2020 18:33

What are airbases in the plains which are going to critical for the LAC , Barelly, Adampur, Ambala are all around 300Km to 400km from the hotspots. Then Budgam-Srinagar, Avantipura- relatively low altitude 4000 feet, Pathankot is very risky given how close it is to the Pakistani Border- what are the airbases we can rely on to get aircraft to the Eastern Ladakh conflict areas?

pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 18:34

Y I Patel wrote:
pankajs wrote:

ALGs like DBO and Fukche are too close to the enemy to be of much use as an Airbase. Easily threatened during war time by placing SAMs along the Chinese controlled areas.

For DBO we need a all weather road and a backup. The DSDBO road is already complete and work on the backup via Saser pass is in progress but is slow it has to be built over a glacier i.e a moving river of ice!!!


The Chinese have built an observation tower overlooking Fukche

Yes ... noted on my Google Earth ... though I need to scan the area again using the other mapping tool to check what is missing from Google maps.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 18:38

https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1276436920936140800
Shashank Joshi @shashj
Indian officials say that Chinese troops are thinning out at the three disputed sites in Ladakh. But overall a “worrisome hardening of Chinese positions, including the placement of 10 mechanised and armoured regiments & ... 15 positions of artillery guns.” https://thehindu.com/news/national/

Mil background folks what does this mean on the ground?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 27 Jun 2020 18:43

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/shashj/status/1276436920936140800
Shashank Joshi @shashj
Indian officials say that Chinese troops are thinning out at the three disputed sites in Ladakh. But overall a “worrisome hardening of Chinese positions, including the placement of 10 mechanised and armoured regiments & ... 15 positions of artillery guns.” https://thehindu.com/news/national/

Mil background folks what does this mean on the ground?


If the source is Hindu. I wouldn't bother to read further.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 18:47

pankajs wrote:
rajpa wrote:
Its the same answer for all your 4 questions.

Because it is disputed territory where Indians have been patrolling for years. We have every right to patrol there, especially in peace.

This is not tennis, but high stakes brinkmanship. Just chill bro.

That's right ... its is a place for Military to deal and a clash will get as much coverage as Galwan! A heli full of soldiers will probably get a tad bit more coverage as compared to Galwan especially when it involves the US made "Chinook" and what ever little coverage the stunt will get will be propaganda victory for the Chinese.

Peacenicks are not supposed to be in an active area and the 4 question will puncture the "peace" narrative along with a "Mil heli" + "Soldier in pace party" stunt.

We are unable to distinguish between a flimi script and real life scenarios.


You are clearly unable to grasp how to navigate and create own narrative in a grey area. Clearly the Chinese are better at that.. at least for now. Explore all options even if it is filmi sounding. Why hold back and dhoti shiver unnecessarily?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mody » 27 Jun 2020 18:52

Deans wrote:Some general points for those of us advising the army on what it should do, or cooking up strategies to liberate Tibet:

None of us on this forum know what assets the IA and IAF have in Ladakh (what is in the public domain - e.g. the Orbat of Northern Command & XIV corps, is almost certain to be different now). The only thing we do know from the PLA 's Orbat is that they are unlikely to have a manpower
advantage anywhere on the LAC.

,,...,,...............

Snip


Only when one sees the terrain and the effects of high altitude can one put aside notions of masses of men and tanks rushing forward to liberate Tibet etc.


Great post Deans. So much of nonsense being posted in this thread, from people wanting to go for a tea party and picnic to finger 4 area on pangong tso, to dreaming of breaking up Tibet.
Becoming really difficult to parse through all the posts and find the ones that make any sense or offer some concrete information.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 27 Jun 2020 18:54

k prasad wrote:
Raveen wrote:I see, our infrastructure was terrible, not because of UPA, it's better now magically? They would've shrink wrapped DBO and asked whether the payment (to the "foundation") would be by card or cash by now


I have no idea what that means Raveen gaaru, but simple fact is that many of the projects that are underway currently were planned during the UPA regime, but are moving at a brisk pace right now. The Atal tunnel, Syama (aka SPM) tunnel, Zoji La tunnel, Z-Morh tunnel, Banihal Qazigund Road Tunnel, etc. Plus, DBO and Fukche were activated during UPA-II. But they're moving much faster at the moment. Why? Is it just the natural acceleration of progress once a project moves out of planning stage, or was it due to specific support from the government?

No improvement is magical - it just requires support and work. What we know is that during the UPA regime, there was a temerity to improving infrastructure in the ladakh border regions, and excessive regulation in approval process. The latter certainly changed with the NDA regime. We need to see if they are more bold on improving infrastructure on the border, but indications suggest this to be the case.



Has, you might want to watch the interview of how dbo got activated and that'll put to rest all questions about UPA

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 18:55

Here is a filmi sounding real operation.. later s film was made on this as well.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Entebbe

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 27 Jun 2020 19:05

India moves air defence missile systems into Eastern Ladakh sector
Read more At:
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 627162455/
Last edited by Larry Walker on 27 Jun 2020 19:06, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 27 Jun 2020 19:06

Prepare for India border row to escalate, Chinese strategists warn Beijing

Hawkish Chinese military strategists have called on Beijing to be better prepared for an escalation in its border dispute with India, saying the potential for armed conflict between the two nuclear powers is on the rise.


A number of retired members of the Chinese military are calling for Beijing to prepare for further escalation, including granting its frontline troops more power to respond to an “intrusion” by Indian forces and deploying non-lethal hi-tech weapons such as laser guns along the border.


Qiao Liang, a retired air force major general and military theorist, said that while the possibility of an all-out war between the two countries remained low, China needed to prepare for an escalation into an armed conflict.

“We should not overestimate India’s response, but we must also not let our guard down,” Qiao said in an article posted on his WeChat account.
China must “take the initiative” in case of a more serious military conflict along the border, he said.

If we must fight a war, we must strike quickly and contain the scale in a small and mid-sized war aimed at causing pain to our opponents and hence gaining respect via small wars,” he said, adding that such a victory would project China’s power to the United States and pro-independence forces in Taiwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 27 Jun 2020 19:08

Not sure how authentic - but just just posting for information
https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 74401?s=19
'Chinese choppers have been flying their very close to the Indian LAC in all the troubled sectors including the Sub Sector North (Daulat Beg Oldie sector), Galwan valley, Hot Springs, Pangong Tso and Finger area where they are now moving closer to the Finger 3 area'

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 27 Jun 2020 19:08

mody wrote:
Deans wrote:Only when one sees the terrain and the effects of high altitude can one put aside notions of masses of men and tanks rushing forward to liberate Tibet etc.


Great post Deans. So much of nonsense being posted in this thread, from people wanting to go for a tea party and picnic to finger 4 area on pangong tso, to dreaming of breaking up Tibet.
Becoming really difficult to parse through all the posts and find the ones that make any sense or offer some concrete information.

Not sure how many times people like Deans would have to repeat this.

Nehru family had gone out of its way to make sure that India doesn't possess any offensive capabilities or thought process like break off this or that. Indian military by mistake once broke off Pakistan and Indian leadership didn't even know what to do with it to capitalize on it. Assuming that Indian leadership was patriotic and didn't know rather than pretended to not know about how to handle the win.
Last edited by darshan on 27 Jun 2020 19:24, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 27 Jun 2020 19:15

“If we must fight a war, we must strike quickly and contain the scale in a small and mid-sized war aimed at causing pain to our opponents and hence gaining respect via small wars,” he said, adding that such a victory would project China’s power to the United States and pro-independence forces in Taiwan.


The Chinis have been wanting to do this for a while. But they would need a victim to try this on.

However you cannot fight a "small" war against an army of 1.4M. Our objective should be to deny this to the chini. They might localise the fight, but we need to hold our line and hammer them all along the LAC.

Tell the world, the Chinis attacked all along the LAC and we are defending. We are ready for ceasefire, when the Chinese stop. As long as there is no grand "free tibet" plans, world will believe our story.

But our sole focus should be high intensity attack on their LAC forces.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 27 Jun 2020 19:23

ldev wrote:Prepare for India border row to escalate, Chinese strategists warn Beijing

Hawkish Chinese military strategists have called on Beijing to be better prepared for an escalation in its border dispute with India, saying the potential for armed conflict between the two nuclear powers is on the rise.


A number of retired members of the Chinese military are calling for Beijing to prepare for further escalation, including granting its frontline troops more power to respond to an “intrusion” by Indian forces and deploying non-lethal hi-tech weapons such as laser guns along the border.


Qiao Liang, a retired air force major general and military theorist, said that while the possibility of an all-out war between the two countries remained low, China needed to prepare for an escalation into an armed conflict.

“We should not overestimate India’s response, but we must also not let our guard down,” Qiao said in an article posted on his WeChat account.
China must “take the initiative” in case of a more serious military conflict along the border, he said.

If we must fight a war, we must strike quickly and contain the scale in a small and mid-sized war aimed at causing pain to our opponents and hence gaining respect via small wars,” he said, adding that such a victory would project China’s power to the United States and pro-independence forces in Taiwan.


Seems like they are preparing an internal pitch for initiating a limited war when India tries to push back the incursions. There is no independent media or analysts in China. So seems like CPC has started creating 'mahaul'.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 27 Jun 2020 19:28

darshan wrote:
mody wrote:
Great post Deans. So much of nonsense being posted in this thread, from people wanting to go for a tea party and picnic to finger 4 area on pangong tso, to dreaming of breaking up Tibet.
Becoming really difficult to parse through all the posts and find the ones that make any sense or offer some concrete information.

Not sure how many times people like Deans would have to repeat this.

Nehru family had gone out of its way to make sure that India doesn't possess any offensive capabilities or thought process like break off this or that. Indian military by mistake once broke off Pakistan and Indian leadership didn't even know what to do with it to capitalize on it.


Every Indian PM has tried to appease China. As has already been posted earlier on this thread, Modi imagined that diplomacy and personal rapport would ensure a deepening of the economic relationship with large scale Chinese investment in India and that in turn will bring stability to the border. He visited China 5 times since becoming PM, the most trips to China by any PM since independence. Xi visited India twice. And they had 1 on 1 meetings on 11 other occasions on the sidelines of the UN General Assembly, G20 etc. All of that has failed.

Without the political mandate and the budget the armed forces are not equipped for offensive expeditionary operations. By doctrine and equipment they operate for the defence of India's borders. Will this crisis force Modi's hand and change the strategy of the political leadership to fight offensive wars designed to capture and hold territory in Tibet? Even if that political decision is made it will be long term multi year process before the Indian armed forces are so equipped and trained.

In a nutshell on the China India border, every few years China probes and prods India. India does the perfunctory border build up and lodges a few diplomatic protests. China takes 3 steps forward and 1 step back. India is relieved that China has taken 1 step back. Everything back to normal. Rinse and repeat a few years later. And the reason that China does this is because it does not pay any price/cost for it's aggression. No cost either military or territorial or trade or diplomatic. In the absence of any cost whatsoever why will China not repeat the same shenanigans again in the future? Over and over again, until they get the territory they want from India and the obedience they expect from India?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 27 Jun 2020 19:37

ldev wrote:
darshan wrote: In the absence of any cost whatsoever why will China not repeat the same shenanigans again in the future? Over and over again, until they get the territory they want from India and the obedience they expect from India?

Yes. The best that can come out of this is that the present GoI does everything possible to clean off all Indian institutions contaminated by nehru family that never wanted to see India rise and even think about anything from offensive perspective. Once policy makers and advisers are at the freedom to bring ideas from all perspectives, then there will be change.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 27 Jun 2020 19:42

Larry Walker wrote:

Seems like they are preparing an internal pitch for initiating a limited war when India tries to push back the incursions. There is no independent media or analysts in China. So seems like CPC has started creating 'mahaul'.
Yaar, relax. One thing you can be sure of is that Chinese will not warn India publicly of impending action. For proof, look no further than what precipitated the night-fight on the cliffs above Galwan river. They agreed to de-escalate in high level talks, started the process of pulling back, pretended to dismantle tents and then rushed in special forces in an ambush- this was clearly preplanned. This is the exact opposite of preparing the mahaul. The word 'perfidy' has been used a lot the past few pages. Perfidy = dhoka, so if they giving any public warning, you have to wonder if it is psy-ops and deception (in which case, we just do a ROTFL. The article mentions a laser gun- what the hell is a laser gun :lol: They probably meant laser sights on guns). At this point, I believe nothing that comes from even official channels, let alone unofficial channels.

Added later: I just saw that the artile quotes a general saying that they should have a limited, small-scale war. This surprises the heck out of me....why do THEY want a limited war, hain ji? Dont they know that their MIC will prevail over India's MIC? MAybe they dont read BRF. :lol:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 19:55

rajpa wrote:
pankajs wrote:That's right ... its is a place for Military to deal and a clash will get as much coverage as Galwan! A heli full of soldiers will probably get a tad bit more coverage as compared to Galwan especially when it involves the US made "Chinook" and what ever little coverage the stunt will get will be propaganda victory for the Chinese.

Peacenicks are not supposed to be in an active area and the 4 question will puncture the "peace" narrative along with a "Mil heli" + "Soldier in pace party" stunt.

We are unable to distinguish between a flimi script and real life scenarios.


You are clearly unable to grasp how to navigate and create own narrative in a grey area. Clearly the Chinese are better at that.. at least for now. Explore all options even if it is filmi sounding. Why hold back and dhoti shiver unnecessarily?

Clearly .. Flying on a Mil Heli with soldiers during a tense standoff and expecting to be received with flowers instead of a SAM is the extent of your understanding of how things work between military during hostilities!

Folks are inventing filmi script to hide their dhoti shiver.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Y I Patel » 27 Jun 2020 19:56

Please study these three passes: Marsimik La, Piu La, and Ane La. Zoom in , zoom out, rotate, note relationship to each other and to (Google) LAC. Also zoom in close to western side of Piu La noting that the imagery will not be current.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vishvak » 27 Jun 2020 20:05

..China takes 3 steps forward and 1 step back. India is relieved that China has taken 1 step back. Everything back to normal. Rinse and repeat a few years later. And the reason that China does this is because it does not pay any price/cost for it's aggression. No cost either military or territorial or trade or diplomatic. In the absence of any cost whatsoever why will China not repeat the same ..
..

The Chinese investment is long term with geo engineering for every step not going back. Then it becomes other's problems.
Last edited by vishvak on 27 Jun 2020 20:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 20:16

ldev wrote:Prepare for India border row to escalate, Chinese strategists warn Beijing

Hawkish Chinese military strategists have called on Beijing to be better prepared for an escalation in its border dispute with India, saying the potential for armed conflict between the two nuclear powers is on the rise.


A number of retired members of the Chinese military are calling for Beijing to prepare for further escalation, including granting its frontline troops more power to respond to an “intrusion” by Indian forces and deploying non-lethal hi-tech weapons such as laser guns along the border.


Qiao Liang, a retired air force major general and military theorist, said that while the possibility of an all-out war between the two countries remained low, China needed to prepare for an escalation into an armed conflict.

“We should not overestimate India’s response, but we must also not let our guard down,” Qiao said in an article posted on his WeChat account.
China must “take the initiative” in case of a more serious military conflict along the border, he said.

If we must fight a war, we must strike quickly and contain the scale in a small and mid-sized war aimed at causing pain to our opponents and hence gaining respect via small wars,” he said, adding that such a victory would project China’s power to the United States and pro-independence forces in Taiwan.

India too was unusually harsh yesterdin in its communication re:Ladkah situation. BOTH India and China are signalling their determination to escalate.

Of course, it just be bluff on both sides or may be not.

The colored highlight is really interesting ...

1. China will dominate/control the escalation is given per this analyst. He does not count on the possibility that India may start its own counter-action at a location that favors it.

2. "Gaining respect" is the key. Therefore, Galwan clash as well as the long stalemate at the border is a loss of face. Untimate objective is to break Modi/India and get respect (plus jaziya).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 27 Jun 2020 20:21

Y I Patel wrote:Please study these three passes: Marsimik La, Piu La, and Ane La. Zoom in , zoom out, rotate, note relationship to each other and to (Google) LAC. Also zoom in close to western side of Piu La noting that the imagery will not be current.

I was able to locate Marsimik La and Ane La, very interesting, but could not locate Piu La. Is it on the "other side". Pincer move?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 27 Jun 2020 20:29

pankajs wrote:2. "Gaining respect" is the key. Therefore, Galwan clash as well as the long stalemate at the border is a loss of face. Untimate objective is to break Modi/India and get respect (plus jaziya).


In hindsight and on a slightly satirical note, every time Xi and Modi met, Xi must be expecting," At this meeting he is going to finally acknowledge my dominance over India. No?....Not happened, well maybe at the next meeting, he will see the sense in acknowledging me as the Han Emperor that I am". And then he finally realized, maybe by the 15th meeting that Modi was not going to acknowledge anything. And then rage, "What do these barbarians think? That they are my equal, me the Son of Heaven, appointed by the Mandate of Heaven," :)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 27 Jun 2020 20:32

The 'Wolf Warriors' . . .

China recruits MMA fighters for Tibet border militia - South China Morning Post
China has enlisted a squad of mixed martial arts fighters into its border militia ranks, according to state media.

The 20 MMA fighters were from the Enbo Fight Club in Sichuan province in the country’s southwest and would form the Plateau Resistance Tibetan Mastiffs to be based in Lhasa, the capital of the Tibet autonomous region , state broadcaster CCTV reported on June 20.

The club is known for producing fighters who go on to compete in international tournaments such as the Ultimate Fighting Championship in the United States.

The announcement came after the deadliest clashes in decades between Chinese and Indian troops along the two countries’ contested Himalayan border

It was not clear if the Tibetan Mastiffs would be deployed to the border with India but their main mission would be to help border patrol troops and special forces in hand-to-hand combat training, according to a Tencent News report.

“If the country needs us, the Enbo Fight Club will wholeheartedly complete more challenging tasks. As for whether [our fighters] took part in the conflict a few days ago, don’t ask me, I didn’t ask,” club owner En Bo was quoted as saying..

Other militia recruits included civilian personnel specialising in communications technology, mountaineering and mining, the official military newspaper, The PLA Daily, reported. They will come under the People’s Liberation Army’s Western Theatre Command.

There has been much debate in China over the virtues of the hybrid fighting style of mixed martial arts and the traditional Chinese kung fu approach to combat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vivasvat » 27 Jun 2020 20:40

SSridhar wrote:The 'Wolf Warriors' . . .

China recruits MMA fighters for Tibet border militia - South China Morning Post
China has enlisted a squad of mixed martial arts fighters into its border militia ranks, according to state media.

The 16 Bihar Dhulai seems to have had an effect.....

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 27 Jun 2020 20:43

Vivasvat wrote:
SSridhar wrote:The 'Wolf Warriors' . . .

China recruits MMA fighters for Tibet border militia - South China Morning Post

The 16 Bihar Dhulai seems to have had an effect.....


After the thrashing they got, Zhao's and Xu's favorite Jinan Eagle Special Forces unit will be withdrawn and replaced with MMA fighters :rotfl:
Last edited by ldev on 27 Jun 2020 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 27 Jun 2020 20:44

pankajs wrote:
rajpa wrote:
You are clearly unable to grasp how to navigate and create own narrative in a grey area. Clearly the Chinese are better at that.. at least for now. Explore all options even if it is filmi sounding. Why hold back and dhoti shiver unnecessarily?

Clearly .. Flying on a Mil Heli with soldiers during a tense standoff and expecting to be received with flowers instead of a SAM is the extent of your understanding of how things work between military during hostilities!

Folks are inventing filmi script to hide their dhoti shiver.


I said I will volunteer for a mission like this. Now who is dhoti shivering? Like I pointed out earlier some operations need imagination but are not fantasy like how Entebbe was executed. If it is a filmi story then you have clearly and completely missed the plot.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sudham » 27 Jun 2020 20:50

There are two points which is not clear to me from all that I have read here

1) Why is China doing this?
2) Will the world powers support us?

1) Why is China doing this?
There can possibly be two reasons
a) Due to a belief that we will try to retake GB. Irrespective of the fact whether you are a supporter or detractor of Modi, one thing that is clear is that he is a hawk when it comes to Pakistan. And they may assume that he will try to impose a change before the next election. An India that physically separates China and Pakistan will be a concern. An India which imposes its own reality in the ground cannot be distracted or hemmed in by its smaller neighbours. Essentially an India which cannot be encircled and which has an ability to cut off all access from the west is a strategic nightmare.
This I believe is a diversion to ensure that we do not move against Pakistan while they solidify their position in GB. Once that happens India will be very hesitant to initiate a 2 front war.

b) Realistically I do not think anyone expects India to invade Tibet. Not even if the CCP commits a massacre there. So what is the one thing that will make India change its stance? ...Water !
I suspect China intends to dam and divert the waters that flow into India. And when that does happen, India will react violently. Again I suspect that they will want to ensure India is encircled completely by then. Point "a" above would also be applicable here. Instigating Nepal to start the border disagreements would also be a part of this plan. Until recently the only concern India would have about the Nepal border would be if China would use them as a route. Now with the Nepalese parliament having passed bill there is no way we will not be worried about them taking advantage if we have a border war with China. I know it seems implausible now, but that is how we thought of the Chinese before the 62 war.
So do they plan to start diverting the water in a big way this year? Not really. This will be a decade down the line. The Chinese have shown that they work long term. I actually suspect this is the main reason.

To all those who ask will China risk a war for GB or water? They will if they think the matter is important enough. They attacked the US to push them to the 38th parallel when the US came too close to the Chinese border. This was a US which had already demonstrated a readiness to use Nukes.

What is the downside? Answer - Nothing. We all talk about how the Vietnamese killed the invading Chinese armies? Did that fundamentally change Chinese policies or their influence in their neighborhood? Not from what I read.
So a short war where they get a bloody nose will not fundamentally change the behaviour of the neighborhood towards them.


2) Will the world powers support us?
They will, if India losing will have a fundamental impact to them but I do not see that as the case. I think they will only do what is absolutely necessary to convince us that they are our friends. If I was the US, I will want India to lose or rather not win. Because that is when India will be more agreeable to become a part of their camp on their terms.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jun 2020 20:51

Y I Patel wrote:Please study these three passes: Marsimik La, Piu La, and Ane La. Zoom in , zoom out, rotate, note relationship to each other and to (Google) LAC. Also zoom in close to western side of Piu La noting that the imagery will not be current.

I had noted it for the following reason.

1. The Gogra post and the valley to the North-West (Hot springs???) is totally dependent on Marsimik La for logistics. I couldn't find an alternate route. There are valleys that could be used on foot but no route.
2. Kui La can be used to cut the Indian position to the east and north of Marsimik La while the PLA attacks the area form Galwan route, Kongka La and Pangong Tso area.

OTOH,
1. Launching from Ane La and Kui La we could go around the contested Pangong Tso northern bank reach the Fort area/IB line.

However, in the last scenario, we would be to the east of F8 by a huge margin and bang in the middle of Chinese troop built up. In any case, I would expect heavy traffic on the area between their post next to Kongka La and the fort on Pangong Tso banks.

What did you have in mind?

On the last point, Kui La on both sides is relatively flat and approachable and could accommodate vehicles, probably tanks too?
Also, just into the valley after crossing Kui La into the Chinese side is a small valley to the north that too seems to be easily accessible from between Marsimik La and Tsogstsalu. Google has an Indian post at the mouth of the connected valley on the Indian side.
Last edited by pankajs on 27 Jun 2020 20:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 27 Jun 2020 20:57

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Last edited by Gerard on 28 Jun 2020 03:50, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 27 Jun 2020 21:00

ldev wrote:
Vivasvat wrote:The 16 Bihar Dhulai seems to have had an effect.....


After the thrashing they got, Zhao's and Xu's favorite Jinan Eagle Special Forces unit will be withdrawn and replaced with MMA fighters :rotfl:

We should be inducting more of the EST 22 and Scouts formations. Those guys are naturals in this terrain.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Y I Patel » 27 Jun 2020 21:02

Your OTOH is right on the money. Direct access to Khurnak fort

Ldev follow the tracery of roads southwards from Marsimik La. Piu La is the next pass to the south. If that doesn’t help try road from Chinese side that ends south of Marsimik La; Piu La is west and uphill of that Chinese road head. ITBP, that vastly under appreciated force, as posts to its west

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Y I Patel » 27 Jun 2020 21:03

PankajS your OTOH is right on the money. Direct access to Khurnak fort

Ldev follow the tracery of roads southwards from Marsimik La. Piu La is the next pass to the south. If that doesn’t help try road from Chinese side that ends south of Marsimik La; Piu La is west and uphill of that Chinese road head. ITBP, that vastly under appreciated force, as posts to its west


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