India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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arshyam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 11:39

This is my last post on this.
Rs_singh wrote:
arshyam wrote:

Arshyam,

Exactly. There are no sources no either side are they? This is standard IW. For internal consumption. As for citations, find me one citation, leave alone in this incident, from anywhere in the world and any country that claims its troops killed 10,12,20, you pick, EN alone and without a gun. Army citations all over do no give out casualty figures inflicted because it can simply not be ascertained in ground combat, even more so in a close fight. So, I call BS, you are free to believe or not believe up to you.
ks_sachin wrote:Being objective here does not mean that we are dissing Sep Gurtej Singh’s actions...
But citations are a collection of fragments of memory from the heat of battle and for every Gurtej there will another one who will not even get a mentioned in dispatches. That is the reality.
I am all for being objective, but how is calling it "BS" or "nonsense" being objective? There are ways to be objective without being disparaging, aren't there?

Rs_singh wrote:As for thwarting tank assaults with bayonet charges. I was giving you an example of fictionalized accounts used in communist countries. This particular one is from Mother Russia during Barbarossa, 1942. Many more come to mind from more recent history and closer by. Such as those from our neighbor to the west in 65, claiming they thwarted tank assault on Lahore by laying down on the roads.
By bringing this one example in this context, you are indeed linking the two and implying Indian accounts are propaganda. Sorry, that's the way it appears, and that's why I called it a strawman argument.

Once again, I am not one to blindly believe propaganda or go into flights of fancy. My multiple posts on this thread against others advocating "liberating Lhasa/Tibet/take your pick" stand testament to that. But, like I said, the official Army/GoI word hasn't come, so we should hold our judgment till then. At the very least, we should not be so casually dismissive of the account that's in the public domain - by that standard, most stories about our assault on the peaks of Kargil could have been dismissed the same way, not to mention the contributions (to put it mildly) of CQMH Abdul Hamid or Rifleman Jaswant Singh Rawat.

[fixed typos]

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vimal » 30 Jun 2020 11:47

With the early arrival of 6 Rafales and lone S400 battery the war has decidedly swung in our favor. Let’s close this thread and open a new one titled “How Chin was won”.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 30 Jun 2020 12:06

Former NSA K. Shivshankar Menon write the following in a book review. Interesting that he seems to be proposing a change in India's foreign policy stance on the border because it's still burdened by the fear of a repeat of 1962. It's well worth a read.

The India-China War of 1962 and its Political After-Life

https://thewire.in/books/review-remakin ... indian-war

The 1962 War is really an iconic/textbook example of this phenomenon and deserves to be studied in much greater detail. Jabin Jacob’s chapter is a beginning at addressing this problem of the lingering effects of political memory, how we construct it, its uses and abuses. The 1962 war is a prime example of a case worth studying because our memory of 1962 still affects Indian attitudes and responses to China and sets the political context for the Indian government’s China policy.

Why does it still do so? Because we have internalised a narrative or story of the war that is powerful and lasting. It has changes, significant moments and endings – as Kahneman says, our remembering selves construct or order experience/memory. It is a story of betrayal and defeat with an unsatisfactory end that needs to be re-written. It is a strong narrative, deeply felt by Indians. I can think of no other way to explain the relative lack of serious academic work in India on 1962 for so many years.

This narrative would not matter if it did not also inhibit us from considering changes in our stance and new responses when circumstances change. In other words, it limits our objectivity and flexibility in our dealings with China.
We have internalised a narrative or story of the war that is powerful and lasting. It is a story of betrayal and defeat with an unsatisfactory end that needs to be re-written. I can think of no other way to explain the relative lack of serious academic work in India on 1962 for so many years.

As an example, consider this: As China’s capabilities on the border have grown and her hold on Tibet has strengthened, she has taken three different positions on the boundary settlement question. First, seeking adjustments in Aksai Chin (before 1959); second, seeking her preferred line in the west with acceptance of the MacMahon Line in the east (1960-1982); third, demanding her line in the west and major Indian concessions in the east, including Tawang (since 1985).

India, on the other hand, maintains a public official position that is basically the same as in the 1950s, with the addition in 1988 that minor adjustments might be possible. And yet, there is no question that the actual correlation of forces on the border is today actually more balanced than it was in the ’50s or in subsequent decades. The factor inhibiting a consequential evolution of our stance seems to be the strength of the narrative that we have constructed and use in our discussion of the boundary and border with China, about Chinese behaviour, and about our faith in ourselves, all of which start with the 1962 war
.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby la.khan » 30 Jun 2020 12:14

vimal wrote:With the early arrival of 6 Rafales and lone S400 battery the war has decidedly swung in our favor. Let’s close this thread and open a new one titled “How Chin was won”.

<sarcasm on>
Not so fast! Rafales (6 nos) will arrive only by end of Jul. 2020. S400 (1 no) will be delivered in only Oct. 2020. Till then, BRF need to hold their dhotis/lungis :P
</sarcasm off>

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 30 Jun 2020 12:18

NRao sir - it we are the last line of defence - what do we get for that from the rest of the world?

Long wait for GCs when people from Xi land is given fast GCs?

No support for military indigenization - when people from Xi land get free access to steal anything?

No access to EU market - when many EU countries roll the welcome carpet out to people from Xi land?

Why should we save the world?

If you say that the world has no choice but to behave the way they do w.r.t China - I dont buy it...

I agree that they have admitted us into many many alphabet soup treaties - some of which Xi land is not a member of - Eg: MTCR.

What else?
Last edited by V_Raman on 30 Jun 2020 12:22, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 30 Jun 2020 12:22

chaitanya wrote:
Narad wrote:Satellite pics show that the dam has considerably warped at may points. It is a ticking time bomb. IMG


Definitely some OSINT experts were involved in this... its pretty clear there is image distortion going on (see the image on the edges). Google maps shows a perfectly straight dam...


Google may have doctored the images. The only reason the dam exists where it does is because Chairman Mao (allegedly) swam across the river there.
There has been plenty of criticism by Dai Qing most prominently. They had to create a second dam like structure because in the first year of operation, it was choked by plastic garbage (the massive city of Chongqing, with a population of around 30 million is upstream)

Here is a recent post that has info from two Chinese directly involved with the Three Gorges project.

https://www.jenniferzengblog.com/home/2 ... ing-built-?

Global Times has already denied this, which makes me think it's probably true.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nishant.gupta » 30 Jun 2020 12:33

Does it matter to our current situation if cracks are occurring in the dam? Unless someone is suggesting that we poke around to make the dam fall today instead of tomorrow in which case the only people who will be affected will be civilians who we have nothing against. Or are we going to ensure that the entire top team of CPC is in the dam when it breaks?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 30 Jun 2020 12:43

suryag wrote:old timers, how is start of action declared by India ? The PM comes on TV pr radio and says "maine hamari sena ko aadhesh diya hai ....." or it is just a press release or it is reported afterfact. Dont remember anything explicit form the PM during Kargil days and wasnt there during 1971


IIRC there was no official declaration of war but some point there were regular briefings. PM Vaypayee in an early press conference said "ham pratikaar karenge" Till that time I hadn't heard प्रतिकार ever. Pratishodh would have meant avenge. Pratikar means something like counter, retaliate but also retribution as I discovered from a dictionary. For some reason, jingos were happy and everyone else too, I was just confused.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 12:46

arshyam wrote:This is my last post on this.
Rs_singh wrote: Arshyam,

Exactly. There are no sources no either side are they? This is standard IW. For internal consumption. As for citations, find me one citation, leave alone in this incident, from anywhere in the world and any country that claims its troops killed 10,12,20, you pick, EN alone and without a gun. Army citations all over do no give out casualty figures inflicted because it can simply not be ascertained in ground combat, even more so in a close fight. So, I call BS, you are free to believe or not believe up to you.
ks_sachin wrote:Being objective here does not mean that we are dissing Sep Gurtej Singh’s actions...
But citations are a collection of fragments of memory from the heat of battle and for every Gurtej there will another one who will not even get a mentioned in dispatches. That is the reality.
I am all for being objective, but how is calling it "BS" or "nonsense" being objective? There are ways to be objective without being disparaging, aren't there?

Rs_singh wrote:As for thwarting tank assaults with bayonet charges. I was giving you an example of fictionalized accounts used in communist countries. This particular one is from Mother Russia during Barbarossa, 1942. Many more come to mind from more recent history and closer by. Such as those from our neighbor to the west in 65, claiming they thwarted tank assault on Lahore by laying down on the roads.
By bringing this one example in this context, you are indeed linking the two and implying Indian accounts are propaganda. Sorry, that's the way it appears, and that's why I called it a strawman argument.

Once again, I am not one to blindly believe propaganda or go into flights of fancy. My multiple posts on this thread against others advocating "liberating Lhasa/Tibet/take your pick" stand testament to that. But, like I said, the official Army/GoI word hasn't come, so we should hold our judgment till then. At the very least, we should not be so casually dismissive of the account that's in the public domain - by that standard, most stories about our assault on the peaks of Kargil could have been dismissed the same way, not to mention the contributions (to put it mildly) of CQMH Abdul Hamid or Rifleman Jaswant Singh Rawat.

[fixed typos]


Let's drop this here..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 12:54

vimal wrote:With the early arrival of 6 Rafales and lone S400 battery the war has decidedly swung in our favor. Let’s close this thread and open a new one titled “How Chin was won”.

Really? :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 12:57

arshyam wrote:
vimal wrote:With the early arrival of 6 Rafales and lone S400 battery the war has decidedly swung in our favor. Let’s close this thread and open a new one titled “How Chin was won”.

Really? :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is he being sarcastic or is he wanting the Admiral treatment?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cain Marko » 30 Jun 2020 13:09

RaviB wrote:
suryag wrote:old timers, how is start of action declared by India ? The PM comes on TV pr radio and says "maine hamari sena ko aadhesh diya hai ....." or it is just a press release or it is reported afterfact. Dont remember anything explicit form the PM during Kargil days and wasnt there during 1971


IIRC there was no official declaration of war but some point there were regular briefings. PM Vaypayee in an early press conference said "ham pratikaar karenge" Till that time I hadn't heard प्रतिकार ever. Pratishodh would have meant avenge. Pratikar means something like counter, retaliate but also retribution as I discovered from a dictionary. For some reason, jingos were happy and everyone else too, I was just confused.

Not Modis style IMHO. He'll hit and then announce as was done at uri and balakot. Even demonetization and 370. Probly just a covid update.. jingos better not get hopes up.

I will say this much though. Modi is no Vajpayee who spoke in terms of aarpaar ki ladhai but pulled back at the last moment. Not so with Namo yet. He tends to act. He'll just do it at the time/place of his choosing.

I'd be shalwar/maosuit browning if I were tsp/chicom. This baniya means business.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 30 Jun 2020 13:12

I agree, my money is on Covid announcement. Nobody announces a war these days.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 30 Jun 2020 13:33

Philip wrote:.....The LCH is v.low hanging fruit amongst the various desi programmes under development. As mentioned in the IAF td.,helicopters and aircraft will be crucial in winning the land war.....


I said it before and am saying it clearly again - the development of the LCH was effectively completed well over a year ago....

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dilbu » 30 Jun 2020 13:34

All unverified onlee.
India-China border tensions | India keeps option open for ‘military response’ while talks continue: Report
While talks with China over the stand-off along the Line of Actual Control (LAC) will continue, there is growing consensus within the Indian government that the country should be prepared for a “military response” if needed.

According to a report in The Indian Express, specific words such as “takrav (clash)” and “ladhai (fight)” have come up in discussions of the top leadership.

“We do not want an escalation but we will not compromise by yielding to China,” a unnamed top official involved in these discussions, told the newspaper. “We are not going to step back, we will take them on.”

The view in the government is that if you start thinking of consequences, you will not be able to move forward,” :D the official was quoted as saying when asked if the Centre had worked out on the implications of such a military conflict.

Moneycontrol could not independently verify the report.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 30 Jun 2020 13:48

RaviB wrote:I agree, my money is on Covid announcement. Nobody announces a war these days.


Most probably Covid, but the Jingo in me is hoping it will be some economic action against China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jun 2020 14:25

HI
I have been following this web site since 2008 simply because there is nothing better out there. Iam based in UK and was in Royal navy in the 80s. I follow Indian defence matters and in 2019 I brought Mr Deans book first edition ( India's two front war 2022) which is a excellent read in these troubled times. As a gust some pages back there members asking if it was available in uk happy to report yes it available on amazon on kindle and book form. My copy is in excellent condition and corona free, I will happy post it to ant one in uk providing they donate generously to a Indian armed forces fund.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 14:26

Hari Nair wrote:
Philip wrote:.....The LCH is v.low hanging fruit amongst the various desi programmes under development. As mentioned in the IAF td.,helicopters and aircraft will be crucial in winning the land war.....


I said it before and am saying it clearly again - the development of the LCH was effectively completed well over a year ago....

Sir some tails cannot be straightened!!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Arima » 30 Jun 2020 14:34

Deans wrote:
RaviB wrote:I agree, my money is on Covid announcement. Nobody announces a war these days.


Most probably Covid, but the Jingo in me is hoping it will be some economic action against China.


My bet is unlock 2.0, coupled with some actions on Cheen trade which will be fulfilled under atmanirbar Bharat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 15:07

ks_sachin wrote:
arshyam wrote:Really? :rotfl: :rotfl:

Is he being sarcastic or is he wanting the Admiral treatment?

Now that you mention it, I think he was being sarcastic onlee...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 15:55

RaviB wrote:I agree, my money is on Covid announcement. Nobody announces a war these days.

Why would someone announce a war?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 30 Jun 2020 16:31

ks_sachin wrote:
RaviB wrote:I agree, my money is on Covid announcement. Nobody announces a war these days.

Why would someone announce a war?


You won't announce a war but you can ready a nation for war.

IMHO probably covid and covid-related economics with some anti-chinese bans. But if it is a big across the board ban on chini products then it would be close to war settings and the nation has to be prepared.

If the ban or chini retaliation cuts off APIs for our pharma then it will impact everything from the chini fight to our covid response to our exports. Ban on parts can disrupt or close down the auto and electronics industries.
Last edited by chola on 30 Jun 2020 16:32, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby amar_p » 30 Jun 2020 16:32

kirpalbasra ji, welcome to the forum

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jun 2020 16:41

amar_p wrote:kirpalbasra ji, welcome to the forum

Many thanks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ashokk » 30 Jun 2020 16:51

China is strongly concerned, verifying the situation: Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian on India banning Chinese apps
We want to stress that Chinese Govt always asks Chinese businesses to abide by international & local laws-regulations. :mrgreen: Indian Govt has a responsibility to uphold the legal rights of international investors including Chinese ones: Zhao Lijian, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ashokk » 30 Jun 2020 16:53

Water-flow increases in Galwan river, need for specialised waterproof clothing felt on Indian side
As the water-flow has increased in the Galwan river, the Indian Security forces are now feeling the need for specialised waterproof clothing for the troops deployed there in a standoff position with China. The Chinese side seems to have come prepared for the deployment as their troops deployed in the Galwan river valley bed are wearing water-proof clothes which allows them to step in the icy water there. "There is a need felt for specialised clothing for deployment alongside the river with ice-cold water as the water flow has increased in the river with the rise in temperature," sources told ANI. The Chinese side which has made camps all along the Galwan river valley up to near the Indian Patrolling Point 14 has come with specialised clothing where the lower portion of the combat dress is made up of waterproof material which allows them to step into the water, the sources said. The Galwan river after originating from Aksai Chin passes through the Line of Actual Control (LAC) and merged with the Shyok river near Indian PP-14.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RajaRudra » 30 Jun 2020 17:10

Seems Modi is teasing china/Xitler with this 4 PM talk
He dont even mention about the lizard name m :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rkirankr » 30 Jun 2020 17:11

So how many of the jingoes let down

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 30 Jun 2020 17:21

Ashokk wrote:China is strongly concerned, verifying the situation: Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian on India banning Chinese apps
We want to stress that Chinese Govt always asks Chinese businesses to abide by international & local laws-regulations. :mrgreen: Indian Govt has a responsibility to uphold the legal rights of international investors including Chinese ones: Zhao Lijian, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson.



China with no press freedom, expert in tsun thoo advised backstabbing and chicanery, have never adhered to any international agreement, steals to survive, etc. is expecting that people believe that Chinese companies follow international and host country laws. Everyone in the world synonyms chinese with thieves.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mukhi » 30 Jun 2020 17:49

:rotfl: I cant even imagine what the class full of Darbarirs / Lutians Media / Liberals / Left / Socialists / Communists / Peaceful(s) / BIFs / FSAs / IFHs / CMG / KMG / AWGs, etc. are going thru. Evil NaMo is just ignoring thme like they don’t exist. Kaha kaha pe Burnell Lagaye unko.

BIF = Break India Forces
FSA = Five Star Activists
IFH = Intellectuals For Hires
CMG = Candlelight March Gangs
KMG = Khan Market Gangs
AWG = Award Wapasi Gangs
Last edited by Mukhi on 30 Jun 2020 17:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 30 Jun 2020 17:50

Hari Nair wrote:
I said it before and am saying it clearly again - the development of the LCH was effectively completed well over a year ago....


Sir does that include the weapon to be carried - rockets and missiles. Have they been integrated and fired as per doctrine envisioned for lch?
Rudra rockets (not even missiles) were only finalized this year (imported uk maal), when over 50 of these are in service?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pandyan » 30 Jun 2020 17:57

ks_sachin wrote:
Hari Nair wrote:
I said it before and am saying it clearly again - the development of the LCH was effectively completed well over a year ago....

Sir some tails cannot be straightened!!!

:rotfl:

EAM Dr. S. Jaishankar mentioned in one of the forums (before he became EAM i believe)...i am paraphrasing here: West has a love-hate relationship with India. They don't want a strong india; at the same time they want it to be strong enough to counteract china. He opined that if India were to become too strong (as perceived by west), they will turn against india.

This border issue is the opportunity for india to pump money into local products

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ashokk » 30 Jun 2020 18:02

darshan wrote:



China with no press freedom, expert in tsun thoo advised backstabbing and chicanery, have never adhered to any international agreement, steals to survive, etc. is expecting that people believe that Chinese companies follow international and host country laws. Everyone in the world synonyms chinese with thieves.

Zhao Lijian, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson has a great sense of humour :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 18:07

pandyan wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Sir some tails cannot be straightened!!!

:rotfl:

EAM Dr. S. Jaishankar mentioned in one of the forums (before he became EAM i believe)...i am paraphrasing here: West has a love-hate relationship with India. They don't want a strong india; at the same time they want it to be strong enough to counteract china. He opined that if India were to become too strong (as perceived by west), they will turn against india.

This border issue is the opportunity for india to pump money into local products


How does that apply to Admiral Filipov?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dinesh_kimar » 30 Jun 2020 18:20

Admiral Filipov has had the last laugh.

The Defence Minister recently went on an urgent mission to Russia.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 18:23

chola wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Why would someone announce a war?


You won't announce a war but you can ready a nation for war.

IMHO probably covid and covid-related economics with some anti-chinese bans. But if it is a big across the board ban on chini products then it would be close to war settings and the nation has to be prepared.

If the ban or chini retaliation cuts off APIs for our pharma then it will impact everything from the chini fight to our covid response to our exports. Ban on parts can disrupt or close down the auto and electronics industries.


Chola sirji I want the sounding of the conch....

No seriously in 1971 when dad was in Bangladesh civvies in Belgium asked my mother how the war was fought on a daily basis. Mom was taken aback when some actually asked if the conch / bugle was sounded each morning for the combatants to enter the battfield and a similar call at dusk to cease hostilities!!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 18:26

dinesh_kimar wrote:Admiral Filipov has had the last laugh.

The Defence Minister recently went on an urgent mission to Russia.

True..

I need to be careful. The FSB may put me down as a marked man for being disrespectful of the Admiral...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dinesh_kimar » 30 Jun 2020 18:29

^ true that.

Twitter speculate that Russia supplying various ammonution and special delivery of an S-400 system.

I'm sure it will be at special friendship prices.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pandyan » 30 Jun 2020 18:40

ks_sachin wrote:How does that apply to Admiral Filipov?

unrelated posts saar...merged two posts into one.

but admiral does demand complete and subservient loyalty; otherwise will punish you of dire consequences (similar to gobar times)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dilbu » 30 Jun 2020 18:44

As flow of Galwan river increases, Chinese troops well equipped, Indian troops may need specialised clothing
As the water-flow has increased in the Galwan river, the Indian Security forces are now feeling the need for specialised waterproof clothing for the troops deployed there in a standoff position with China.

The Chinese side seems to have come prepared for the deployment as their troops deployed in the Galwan river valley bed are wearing water-proof clothes which allows them to step in the icy water there.

The Chinese side which has made camps all along the Galwan river valley up to near the Indian Patrolling Point 14 has come with specialised clothing where the lower portion of the combat dress is made up of waterproof material which allows them to step into the water, the sources said.


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