India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Mollick.R
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mollick.R » 02 Jul 2020 22:08

Raveen wrote:
Mollick.R wrote:India approves massive defence-related proposals including 33 new fighter aircraft
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/ne ... 740252.cms

Please stop posting WhatsApp forwards without reading the preceding discussion on this thread.

Bullets 1, 3, and 4 are materially the same
1, 3, and 4 were approved last year, discussed to death here
If they cleared 38k, of which 18 k is for Russian planes, how is 31k being spent on Indian industry?

8 is critical and a welcome development


@Raveen jee, I didn't knew quoting Economic Times article/news feed is considered "Whatsapp" forward & i must say you have very peculiar standards set. Please shoot a letter to the editor of Economic Times mentioning your grievances.

TIA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 02 Jul 2020 22:22

samirdiw wrote:I guess one of the first question that Modiji would ask his Military/Finance Minister would be..
1. How long a war can we sustain without additional debt?
2. How long a battle can China sustain against India excluding other factors other than military and finance?
3. Excluding nukes what is the maximum damage they can incur on our country.
4. How many conventional hits would it take to take out all our OFB , defense industries and ports? i.e. reduce drastically our ability to prolong a war.
5. Where would their missiles need to be to do the above? Do we have the ability to take out those missile launchers --what is needed to fill the gap?

+1
Highlighted and underlined questions are the real issues in a war with China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 02 Jul 2020 22:32

fanne wrote:the actual count circulating in MI is 123.

Is this the number of chinese KIA?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 02 Jul 2020 22:36

mahadevbhu wrote:
srin wrote:Brahmos has tomahawk range ? Is that in lo-lo mode or in hi-lo mode or in pure ballistic mode ? And any sources you can provide ?

No sources. But brahmos is 1000 km range and Agni series is all ICBM ranges. The physics works and you can add more fuel to the tanks. Make no mistake.

You can't just add more fuel to Brahmos and call it a day, its a missile system, not a Chetak you can tilt and launch if it doesn't work the first time.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 02 Jul 2020 22:37

Mollick.R wrote:
Raveen wrote:Please stop posting WhatsApp forwards without reading the preceding discussion on this thread.

Bullets 1, 3, and 4 are materially the same
1, 3, and 4 were approved last year, discussed to death here
If they cleared 38k, of which 18 k is for Russian planes, how is 31k being spent on Indian industry?

8 is critical and a welcome development


@Raveen jee, I didn't knew quoting Economic Times article/news feed is considered "Whatsapp" forward & i must say you have very peculiar standards set. Please shoot a letter to the editor of Economic Times mentioning your grievances.

TIA.


Mollick ji, editorial standards for TOIlet and associated newspapers are well known and do not need to be rehashed. Your synopsis of the article reads like a WhatsApp forward though, suggest reading the thread and analyzing the data before posting.

TIA

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Guddu » 02 Jul 2020 22:44

Food Connoisseur Abhijit Iyer Mitra explains in simple terms whats wrong with our defense acquisitions. Somewhat simplistic, but you will definitely enjoy his hindi accent.

https://youtu.be/J5tz3aqE2QE

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 02 Jul 2020 22:45

Rs_singh wrote:1. Grab land? Ah, you see, in the army, you learn to dominate physically or dominate by obs.

Please elucidate how domination by observation helps when the use of firearms, particularly artillery shelling, is not resorted to. If the PLA were to resort to artillery shelling, then they have to be prepared for an Indian response in kind.
Col. Vinayak Bhat (R) has filed a report that shows that Chinese radar positions can observe our helicopter flights to Siachen. I don't expect this to prevent us from continuing routine air maintenance of our posts.

A quick look at PLAGF pos should reveal to you which territory they’ve denied to us and where they can move fwd. I won’t go into the details, it’s freely available on twitter.

I have looked, Sir. Tried to correlate those positions in the Depsang Plains to terrain on Google Earth. What I see from news reports is that there may be a choke point that prevent our patrolling to PP 10, 10A, 11, 13 etc but there are also reports, specifically from Nitin Gokhale that there are alternate approaches that bypass that too. In any case, even that chokepoint is only valid as long as no firearms are used. I can't tell from Google Earth (the version I have allows detailed terrain scans only as late as 2009) whether those points are actually defensible in a firefight.
As far as the Chinese intruding further into our territory in Depsang is concerned, that is even more curious because the terrain is so broken up that apart from encirclement by infantry, it seems their options are even more limited. Whereas, if India were to cross further West and North, the terrain becomes considerably more favorable for armour deployment. In addition, the Chinese armour build up on their side of the LAC is more vulnerable to Indian artillery interdiction.
So I am all ears for some pointers.
Aside: There is a position named Alpha III, which on one set of maps is marked as a Chinese position but from the approaches looks like it should be an Indian position.

2. I’m not sure why the persistent reference to op parakram. Op parakram was a response to an act of aggression to deter further aggression. This build up iIS the act of aggression itself. .... Perhaps you can explain this a bit better to me if I’ve misunderstood you but I don’t see the equivalence here.

I am not drawing a moral equivalence between the two, if that's what you are concerned about. It's rather of the stalemate that ensues when the enemy deployment matches one's own.
Aside: I don't agree with your assessment that Op Parakram was intended to deter further aggression from Pak (none was forthcoming); even the official line is that it was intended to be punitive, coercive diplomacy to extract concessions. However, this is a line of discussion that will distract from the current scenario, so let's leave this be.

3. The EN has a narrow window to hit us. Besides there are several internal political compulsions for the CCP to survive. I’ve said before, this is Soviet Union 1989.


How do those internal compulsions assess the possibility of a bloody stalemate, if shooting starts? At the moment the CCP can declare victory to its internal audience (the map of China west of Finger 4 is visible). It may be a tad bit different if a shooting war results in significant Chinese casualties and no permanent gains of territory?

Our public opinion will turn sour once coffins start coming back. GOI is answerable to the people, after all. We saw this in IC814, and again in Kargil, most recently

Public opinion turned sour in India during Kargil??? Perhaps it turned sour in Pakistan once their coffins came back.
More recently, in this stand-off public opinion turned even more nationalistic after the clash in Galwan on June 15.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 02 Jul 2020 22:50

The PLA build up has been in stages, especially of armor and artillery. Early reports from Abhijit Iyer Mitra show that the build up was continuing even as late as end May and early June. This build up seemed to coincide with Indian deployment that was a response to the May clashes on Pangong Tso and June clash in Galwan.

So, rather than this deployment being an instance of grand proactive Chinese strategy, why can't it be a case of Chinese trying to deter an Indian response to their salami slicing?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nachiket » 02 Jul 2020 23:01

mahadevbhu wrote:No sources. But brahmos is 1000 km range and Agni series is all ICBM ranges. The physics works and you can add more fuel to the tanks. Make no mistake.

Why don't you show your calculations here? Till then it is idle speculation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mahadevbhu » 02 Jul 2020 23:02

mahadevbhu wrote:No sources. But brahmos is 1000 km range and Agni series is all ICBM ranges. The physics works and you can add more fuel to the tanks. Make no mistake.


viewtopic.php?t=7667&start=160

by Karan M » 23 Feb 2019 06:25
Brahmos NG - the head (Sudhir Mishra) notes Brahmos is looking towards doing all sorts of stuff for the program. Brahmos NG variants in all likelihood:
Variants can have range >> 300 km
Precision increase, submeter vs meters

viewtopic.php?t=6380&start=440
After 90 seconds, the giant 40-tonne first stage dropped away, having propelled Agni-5 to an altitude of about 36 km. About 75 seconds later, the 10-tonne stage-2 rocket was jettisoned, having propelled the missile up to 110 km. Four minutes after launch, with Agni-5 now 220 km above the earth, the 2.5-tonne stage-3 rocket fell away. By now, the 19 metre-high, 50-tonne missile :?: that had blasted off from here was a mere 1.2-tonne projectile, hurtling through space at almost six km a second. Inside this was a simulated nuclear warhead and the navigation package that would guide it precisely to the impact point.



40+10+2.5+1.2 >50T

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Comparison_of_ICBMs

50 Tonne missiles have the above ranges as in the wikipedia page above.
Please extrapolate to Agni 2, 3, 4 as well.

This is what India can do in terms of ICBMs and MIRVs
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Geosynchr ... ch_Vehicle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Polar_Sat ... ch_Vehicle
Last edited by mahadevbhu on 02 Jul 2020 23:04, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 02 Jul 2020 23:03

Jus looking for clarification - the supposed chokepoint which the Chinese have occupied preventing us going any forward to our patrol points - is this in within CCL as of Apr'20 or was it beyond CCL (from Chinese perspective) ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 02 Jul 2020 23:04

Raveen wrote:.... its a missile system, not a Chetak you can tilt and launch if it doesn't work the first time.
:rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nachiket » 02 Jul 2020 23:06

Raveen wrote:Please stop posting WhatsApp forwards without reading the preceding discussion on this thread.

Bullets 1, 3, and 4 are materially the same
1, 3, and 4 were approved last year, discussed to death here
If they cleared 38k, of which 18 k is for Russian planes, how is 31k being spent on Indian industry?

8 is critical and a welcome development

It's an economic times link not a whatsapp forward. The 12 Su-30's will be built by HAL.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ChanakyaM » 02 Jul 2020 23:08

ldev wrote:
RaviB wrote:This is not true at all. While certainly not as easily covered as Pakistan, China has several major targets in the range of ~1000 km. Chengdu is around 900km from Dibrugarh, Chongqing (also written Chungking) is I think around 1100 km. Chengdu is a major military centre. Chongqing was developed as a city precisely as part of the third line of defence (IIRC), a city not too close to the sea that would serve as a military centre. Administratively, it has the same status as Beijing and Shanghai and has a population of 30 million. These are both perfect counterforce targets. There's also Kunming which is even closer but that would only be relevant as a countervalue target.India has a highly redundant capability to hit these targets.

What Indian weapon system currently deployed, (not including the Agni 2 and 3 which are purely for the nuke strike role), is capable of striking 900 km into China? There is a reason that today the DAC has approved the development of a Long Range Land Attack Cruise Missile, both air launched and ship launched with a range of 1000km. And the reason is because India today lacks that capability. it is what I have been asking for the last few weeks ever since this crisis started and I am glad that today GOI has approved funding for it's development. Maybe somebody senior in GOI does read BRF :)

How long are we looking at? Going by our previous record at least 5-8 years before we even see some trials? or do we have the know how to roll out thinks < 1 yr? Either way, lot of water would have flown down the glaciers by that time world opinion may change with shifting time and if them chinese harden their current held positions all for nothing. We should stop this knee jerk reactions and focus on strategic long term objectives and work diligently towards it. If we have to throw money at it to get some joint ventures in to it so be it, do it, get done with it. Till then we would be sitting twiddling our thumbs and doing nothing but taking it to various forums. Power flows from the barrel of a .. said their favorite Mao, we have to do a Mao here and pretty fast.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 02 Jul 2020 23:09

nachiket wrote:
Raveen wrote:Please stop posting WhatsApp forwards without reading the preceding discussion on this thread.

Bullets 1, 3, and 4 are materially the same
1, 3, and 4 were approved last year, discussed to death here
If they cleared 38k, of which 18 k is for Russian planes, how is 31k being spent on Indian industry?

8 is critical and a welcome development

It's an economic times link not a whatsapp forward. The 12 Su-30's will be built by HAL.

Discussed the first part

Screwdrivered by HAL using Russian raw materials and fasteners

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby skumar » 02 Jul 2020 23:11

ldev wrote:India today does not have the kind of long range precision strike weapons needed to target China where it hurts. Because until this present crisis was thrust on it 75% of India's defence efforts focused on Pakistan. So yes as of today that kind of a war is a non starter with China. But imagine this. Pakistan's breadth is 400km-450km at most points from Kashmir to Karachi. Islamabad, Rawalpindi and Karachi are all less than 200 km from the Indian border, Lahore is less than 30 km. So India's strike weapons are calibrated to reach these Pakistani targets. However against China which has now emerged as India's principal threat the closest Chinese cities are 2000km-2500km away. Fighting China with India's existing non-nuclear missiles and aircraft is like fighting Pakistan with artillery with a range of 40 km. If that 40 km ranged artillery was the maximum range that India could strike into Pakistan, how deterred would Pakistan be? And even within a 40 km range of the Indian border, Pakistan has assets to lose including the city of Lahore. Against China there is nothing within 300 km of the Indian border except the Tibet plateau with very little population which in any case is Tibetan so China does not care if any of them die. So yes as of today India does not have that long range strike capability. But if it wants to confront China and deter China, there is no other option but to get it pronto.

RaviB wrote:This is not true at all. While certainly not as easily covered as Pakistan, China has several major targets in the range of ~1000 km. Chengdu is around 900km from Dibrugarh, Chongqing (also written Chungking) is I think around 1100 km. Chengdu is a major military centre. Chongqing was developed as a city precisely as part of the third line of defence (IIRC), a city not too close to the sea that would serve as a military centre. Administratively, it has the same status as Beijing and Shanghai and has a population of 30 million. These are both perfect counterforce targets. There's also Kunming which is even closer but that would only be relevant as a counter value target.

India has a highly redundant capability to hit these targets.

Am I missing something?

Both Beijing and Shanghai are <5,000 kms from Indian mainland, well within Agni V range and that would have been the design goal for this missile.

If we are talking about Chengdu and Chongqing -> the war would have escalated already and all bets are off.

The Chinese are not going to target Aligarh or Bareily so as to avoid targeting Delhi/Kolkata.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 02 Jul 2020 23:20

skumar wrote:Am I missing something?

Both Beijing and Shanghai are <5,000 kms from Indian mainland, well within Agni V range and that would have been the design goal for this missile.

If we are talking about Chengdu and Chongqing -> the war would have escalated already and all bets are off.

The Chinese are not going to target Aligarh or Bareily so as to avoid targeting Delhi/Kolkata.


Nuclear weapons are weapons of deterrence. Not deterrence to avoid conventional conflict, but deterrence to avoid a nuclear first strike by your adversary. The deployed Agni 2 and 3 are ONLY/SOLELY nuclear tipped - there are no conventional warheads on them. Agni 5 has not yet been operationally deployed AFAIK. And as of now both China and India have a NFU policy.....maybe a slightly gray policy but it is still as of date the stated policy.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 02 Jul 2020 23:31

Need help - how can I upload an image in my post pls

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RKumar » 02 Jul 2020 23:32

Did China thought India will use nukes when they did what they did? Changed LAC? Ambushed our men?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 02 Jul 2020 23:34

Larry Walker wrote:Need help - how can I upload an image in my post pls

[img]...[/img]

Imbed web link to photo in the above code

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby skumar » 02 Jul 2020 23:35

ldev wrote:Nuclear weapons are weapons of deterrence. Not deterrence to avoid conventional conflict, but deterrence to avoid a nuclear first strike by your adversary. The deployed Agni 2 and 3 are ONLY/SOLELY nuclear tipped - there are no conventional warheads on them. Agni 5 has not yet been operationally deployed AFAIK. And as of now both China and India have a NFU policy.....maybe a slightly gray policy but it is still as of date the stated policy.


1. Multiple tests have already been conducted on Agni V - the only gray area is the range, whether it is 5,000 kms or more, no one is talking about less.

2. It is unlikely that the Chinese will target large Indian metros with conventional bombs and even if they do, the escalation path from there is very very short. Either the conflict will be localized to < X kms from LAC or it would be all over the place.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 02 Jul 2020 23:39

skumar wrote:
ldev wrote:Nuclear weapons are weapons of deterrence. Not deterrence to avoid conventional conflict, but deterrence to avoid a nuclear first strike by your adversary. The deployed Agni 2 and 3 are ONLY/SOLELY nuclear tipped - there are no conventional warheads on them. Agni 5 has not yet been operationally deployed AFAIK. And as of now both China and India have a NFU policy.....maybe a slightly gray policy but it is still as of date the stated policy.


1. Multiple tests have already been conducted on Agni V - the only gray area is the range, whether it is 5,000 kms or more, no one is talking about less.

2. It is unlikely that the Chinese will target large Indian metros with conventional bombs and even if they do, the escalation path from there is very very short. Either the conflict will be localized to < X kms from LAC or it would be all over the place.


Even if it is all over the place, all bets are not off. All bets will only be off if/when the nukes fly and there is a gigantic step between Indian metros being targeted with conventional warheads and a full on nuke exchange which could take out 20-30 Chinese targets and upwards of a 100 Indian targets. That will result in a wounded China and an annihilated India and I doubt that any Indian PM will go there unless there is a first strike (nuclear) on India.

I don't think you appreciate the giant chasm that exists between a full on conventional war and an all out nuke exchange. The latter effectively means the end of the country as it exists today, with radiation, mass deaths etc. etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 02 Jul 2020 23:45

Image
Not sure how accurate but gives a good perspective
Last edited by Larry Walker on 02 Jul 2020 23:50, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VikramS » 02 Jul 2020 23:46

---POST DELETED---
Last edited by Rakesh on 03 Jul 2020 00:09, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Trolling

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dbhavik » 02 Jul 2020 23:55

Been a lurker in this forum for years. Posting for the first time.

I haven't seen much being talked about Shaurya missile as a tactical weapon against the Chinese. Depending on the warhead, it can hit a target ranging from 700 kms (1 ton warhead) to 1900 km (300 kg warhead). It's also hypersonic in the terminal phase. It can cause serious harm to the Chinese. Also, any info about the loitering drones - Harpy and Harop - being deployed near the LAC? We have a rather small inventory of loitering drones and should buy a number of those from Israel ASAP.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ldev » 02 Jul 2020 23:56

---POST DELETED---
Last edited by Rakesh on 03 Jul 2020 00:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Responding to Troll

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby skumar » 03 Jul 2020 00:00

ldev wrote:
skumar wrote:
1. Multiple tests have already been conducted on Agni V - the only gray area is the range, whether it is 5,000 kms or more, no one is talking about less.

2. It is unlikely that the Chinese will target large Indian metros with conventional bombs and even if they do, the escalation path from there is very very short. Either the conflict will be localized to < X kms from LAC or it would be all over the place.


Even if it is all over the place, all bets are not off. All bets will only be off if/when the nukes fly and there is a gigantic step between Indian metros being targeted with conventional warheads and a full on nuke exchange which could take out 20-30 Chinese targets and upwards of a 100 Indian targets. That will result in a wounded China and an annihilated India and I doubt that any Indian PM will go there unless there is a first strike (nuclear) on India.

I don't think you appreciate the giant chasm that exists between a full on conventional war and an all out nuke exchange. The latter effectively means the end of the country as it exists today, with radiation, mass deaths etc. etc.


If India attacks Lahore, which is less than 50 kms from border, will Pakistan attack only Amritsar and targets within 50 kms of the border?

Why do you think that China will think that if it targets Delhi with conventional war heads, New Delhi will not escalate?

Lastly, why do you think that Agni V cannot carry conventional payloads?

The risks of an all out nuclear exchange will not be limited to India and China but will impact Korea/Japan/Pakistan/others due to radioactivity. That is why I think once a metro is targeted, neither side can predict the reaction of the other (which is what I meant by saying all bets are off).

Since both sides know this and since neither has a 100% umbrella they believe in for protection, the conflict will not escalate beyond a narrow localized zone.
Last edited by skumar on 03 Jul 2020 00:03, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 00:01

VikramS wrote:I am seeing a bit too much pessimism when it comes to a question of pulling surprises by acquiring game-changing tech/equipment.
Here are some thoughts:

You were asked by a forum mod to not do this. See below. You ignored it and still continued. This is NOT the thread for this. Take this discussion to the MMRCA thread. You are now simply trolling in this thread. Since you are unable to follow basic instructions, please leave the forum. I am giving you a one month ban. Thank You.

nachiket wrote:Mode Note: NO more discussions about F-35 here. It is not pertinent to this thread. VikramS, you will get a warning for ignoring my previous post about this.

Rest of you, stop replying or you will receive warnings too. We need to increase the signal-to-noise ratio here, not reduce it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 00:04

ldev wrote:....

How is this related to this thread? See mod note above. Enjoy a one week ban.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 03 Jul 2020 00:15

dbhavik wrote:Been a lurker in this forum for years. Posting for the first time.

I haven't seen much being talked about Shaurya missile as a tactical weapon against the Chinese. Depending on the warhead, it can hit a target ranging from 700 kms (1 ton warhead) to 1900 km (300 kg warhead). It's also hypersonic in the terminal phase. It can cause serious harm to the Chinese. Also, any info about the loitering drones - Harpy and Harop - being deployed near the LAC? We have a rather small inventory of loitering drones and should buy a number of those from Israel ASAP.

Real question is how many conventional cruise/ballistic missiles do we have in our inventory TODAY? Apart from the few hundred Brahmos (and whatever is left of the Prithvis) there is no evidence of any other missiles being inducted in conventional roles - Shaurya, Agni or any thing else - so any discussion on it is in the fantasy/wet dream realm, better now spend time on it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mollick.R » 03 Jul 2020 00:21

Raveen wrote:
Mollick.R wrote:
@Raveen jee, I didn't knew quoting Economic Times article/news feed is considered "Whatsapp" forward & i must say you have very peculiar standards set. Please shoot a letter to the editor of Economic Times mentioning your grievances.

TIA.


Mollick ji, editorial standards for TOIlet and associated newspapers are well known and do not need to be rehashed. Your synopsis of the article reads like a WhatsApp forward though, suggest reading the thread and analyzing the data before posting.

TIA


@Raveen jee, let me put it in a bullet point wise manner , for easy comprehension of yours 8)

1. Unlike a few paki based news outlets there is not blanket "haram" tag for TOI & its sister concerns in BRF.

2. The quoted report by me is an NOT ANALYSIS by ECONOMIC TIMES OF INDIA. It was just FACTUAL reporting (article/news feed) mentioning decisions taken in The defence acquisitions council (DAC), chaired by defence minister Rajnath Singh. Please keep your "editorial standard of toilet......" tirade aside. So Sir jee your don't post "Whatsapp Forward" rant was uncalled for.

3. Also postering/signaling/ restating previously taken decision whatever the purpose it may be, other than economic times article I quoted (the ("Whatsapp" forward :lol: ), from evening till late night all (of all calibre) TV news media outlets have covered it with good air time.

4. This time please shoot an email to "Ministry of Information and Broadcasting" also.

5. nachiket wrote :It's an economic times link not a whatsapp forward. The 12 Su-30's will be built by HAL.
Raveen wrote: Discussed the first part, Screwdrivered by HAL using Russian raw materials and fasteners


Again sir jee, reg Su-30 MKI & HAL it's your highly biased and narrow viewpoint (spending minimum adjectives here), I too suggest you reading relevant threads on subject matter before posting such flamebaits here.

Peace & again TIA.

Sorry, mods. for stretching this one....................

fanne
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 03 Jul 2020 00:40

darshhan wrote:
fanne wrote:the actual count circulating in MI is 123.

Is this the number of chinese KIA?


yes

pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 01:00

https://twitter.com/rsprasad/status/1278524001824866304
Ravi Shankar Prasad @rsprasad

“India must not contribute to the digital and economic rise of the same power that harms it”.
An insightful article written by @samirsaran on the need for building a robust digital ecosystem that respects security concerns of country.

For 6+ years, China's penetration was facilitated by GOI/Modi and his ministry and now he is giving gyan. It took them 6 years to come to this realization all the while we were happy not getting reciprocal access for our industry.

ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2020 03:03

Raveen calm down admins will take action if needed.
I don't think so.
No need to take out your anger on the poster.

ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 03 Jul 2020 03:06

Those 21+12 planes requirement ACM RB stated in his first speech.
Next it was confirmed when RNS went to Moscow.
Now Defence Ministry approved the request.
It goes to CCS.

pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 03:26

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/i ... 2020-07-02
India deploys Special Forces units in Ladakh amid military standoff with China
"Para special forces units have been moved from different locations in the country to the Ladakh region where they are already carrying out exercises," government sources told Aajtak and India Today. Special Forces units played a key role in the 2017 surgical strikes against Pakistan-based terror camps and can be used effectively on the Chinese front if and when needed, sources added.

Most recent inputs indicate that Special Forces units have already been deployed along forward locations in eastern Ladakh. Troops have been fully apprised about roles they may have to assume in case hostilities with China escalate.

shyamd
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shyamd » 03 Jul 2020 04:28

^^ The report above is accurate. Para SF have finished exercises and are now already at operational locations. There was a QRA special forces contingent who were on standby to conduct ops at very short notice - this role will change and transition.

It's business as usual on NE side. SFF are conducting missions.

- Current assessment as I've always said is that this will last at least till winter. It'll take at least 2 to 3 months just to draw down the troops.
- Logistics is on massive overdrive. IA is even using mules. Even at the best of times, some of these locations are very difficult to sustain - you can imagine what life is like at the minute. Basically the forces are stocking up to levels where they can sustain even winter/ if supply lines are cut.
- There are multiple overt and covert options on the table. No buttons have been used yet.
- Some strategic signalling done which is forcing PLA to the table - an understanding has been reached for Def journos not to talk about them until approval is given.
- IN has placed itself at key locations.

- At least 1 SE Asian country is willing to provide overt support for Indian ops should the need arise. This is in addition to logistical support arrangements already in place.

- Let's keep in mind the US is deploying 3 carriers east of china.

- IN is also keeping tabs on Djibouti base.

vimal
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vimal » 03 Jul 2020 04:54

This thread is really entertaining.

SriKumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 03 Jul 2020 05:46

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
RaviB wrote:....

That's why I am pushing for an understanding and quantification of what is the cost ....
One measure that lends itself very nicely to quantification is the money poured into raising all the infantry and moutain divisions and Garwhal scouts, Ladakh scouts to staff the border wherever an ingress, however minor, was made; not to mention the hardware associated with these divisions (and other forces Su-MKIs, IRBMS, etc etc). I cant provide a number but if you look at all the money that was spent since 1963 on just trying to hold the LAC, it would run in crores of crore rupees (and counting) taken away from infrastructure and economic development from an India that had massive poverty and malnutrition till about 5 years ago. All goverments, Lal Bahadur Shastri and Indira Gandhi, onwards have had to spend, Congress or BJP.

It would not be a friendly nation that amasses several divisions of troops along the border when the other country's citizens are reeling with the Covid epidemic, entire cities in lockdown for months, clampdown on travel by train, air, car; people not allowed to go out, many have lost their jobs, economy taking a huge hit. And this is the time they pick for a military feint.



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