India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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srin
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby srin » 03 Jul 2020 21:30

Eleven has burnt too many bridges by imprisoning his rivals on corruption charges etc and creating winner-takes-all instead of accommodating his rivals. He won't quit, so the only option for others is either a politburo coup or a military coup (aided by an arab spring type revolt). As for him, his future is quite limited - he will appoint a chosen successor when old and retire, he will be arrested after being deposed, or he will be executed. I don't see a smooth transition happening.

A blood nose from India in a public way that can't be covered up will accelerate the matters further.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mahadevbhu » 03 Jul 2020 21:32

^^ As per Shyamd's post, missiles have been mobilized in India as well.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 03 Jul 2020 21:35

srin wrote:Propaganda is so yesterday, psyops is the contemporary technique :D
- Little emperors giving up lives and ending the family line for some piece of land "where not a blade of grass grows"
- CCP doesn't care for the PLA, just look at how the dead were treated.
- PLA doesn't have honor, they are armed with sticks
- Eleven has lost control of the PLA, coup in the offing
- China has no friends other than Bakistan and NoKo, and they too haven't really supported them
- PLA doesn't know war unlike Indian Army which is battle skilled.
Add to this list: India's PM visited the troops near the frontlines, addressed them and told them their families will be taken care of. He also met the injured soldiers in the hospitals. What did Xi Jinpeng do? :twisted:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 03 Jul 2020 21:36

mahadevbhu wrote:This is likely to end badly for Modi, methinks, not Xi. Xi has already purged his enemies via anti-corruption purges. Modi will likely lose face and a war with China_Pakistan which will be made clear with body bags / surrender and taking of territory. This will make him unelectable in the next election and we may get a weaker PM/ no more Modi. I think he should have chosen his fights - having a good PM around for longer is more important to India than showing China that their territorial expansion is intolerable.

The CPC is the most powerful single entity in the world today. Unless regime is changed in China, and the US mobilizes to do so, they will likely remain the single largest powerful entity in the world for a long time. There's not much anyone can do about it - they have 80 million members, a stronger support base than what any other leader has in the world today.

Xi Jinping is trying to cut Modi down to size. Everyone can see that Modi is the leader of the free world today, and has widespread support from a lot of people.

China has seen this happen to Nehru before, and they want to do it to Modi again.


Is it fear and paranoia that's bewildering you into making irrational statements? Or are you just plain trolling and flame baiting everyone?

Neither of the two will happen, India won't lose, and Modi won't be embarrassed unless the MoU of the Congress kicks in with a certain clause to highlight losses even during military victory.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TKiran » 03 Jul 2020 21:45

The first thing we should do is to cut off supply lines to little princes. Tibet should be out of reach of China by road or rail. Nepalis should be told not to supply to PLA, and covert operations should be done against any potential enemies of India in Nepal.

Karakoram highway should be destroyed completely.

Hold our position against any thrust by land.

Missiles and aircraft may be looking good in scenes, photo ops, short films, etc. Not effective when we are dug-in and they have to move.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 03 Jul 2020 21:48

williams wrote:
abhik wrote:An upbeat account from a retired IFS for a change.
'Xi will have to quit, CCP end is nigh' | Indian Diplomat on Modi Ladakh Visit | NewsX

This is exactly what 11 and his gang is fearing. They think creating a military conflict will unify the country and people will forget the mishandling of the Wuhan virus. I will tell you this, there is no way China contained this virus. They are fudging the numbers and oppressing their own people. It is going to backfire. 11 will have enough enemies in the Politburo who will be ready to pounce on him when there is a small indication of failure. We should be ready for a conflict and give them a very public bloody nose.


Look at the headlines this morning. They are not going to implode. Economically, they are now ahead of everyone else because of the virus that they wrought.

Maybe karma will catch up to them in the next life but in this one, India needs to deal real punishment to create any crack in their facade. We can't just be "ready" for a conflict. Modi needs to impose conflict instead of letting them sit back and build. If we have pictures of their dead and prisoners we need to show those. If not, we need to get them during an offensive.

https://www.theguardian.com/business/live/2020/jul/03/china-services-companies-pmi-uk-eurozone-covid-recovery-business-live

UK service sector slump levels off, as China growth surges - as it happened

https://www.wsj.com/articles/chinas-economy-regains-strength-after-strict-coronavirus-measures-11593773630

China’s Economy Regains Strength After Strict Coronavirus Measures

BEIJING—Economic activity is gathering momentum in China, a raft of survey data showed this week, the latest sign that Beijing’s uncompromising approach to tackling the coronavirus pandemic is starting to pay dividends even as the U.S. shuts down swaths of its economy in a struggle to contain the virus.



https://www.ft.com/content/b889b6b1-432b-4ebe-b4a9-43879c06d829

Chinese shares hit 5-year high on growing optimism over economy
Services sector survey fuels hopes rebound is taking hold in world’s biggest emerging market

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vishvak » 03 Jul 2020 21:54

..If we have pictures of their dead and prisoners we need to show those. If not, we need to get them during an offensive...
..

With due respect, we need to have readily available tools throughout for peace wonder who will need what. This is why all kind of leaks should be avoided. The higher authorities prolly has a bit more control to command such.
Last edited by vishvak on 03 Jul 2020 21:55, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Jul 2020 21:54

Larry Walker wrote:...Still - it could have been more 'contextual' if he exhorted the soldiers on protecting sovereignty and integrity of borders or even maybe avenge their fallen comrade - .... Maybe I am getting a little too paranoid about his expansionism remark - but I somehow feel there is a clear signalling there..

Larry Walker, what, if I may ask, are you asking further in the contextual?

I for one, got the message Loud and Clear. Did you not?

Also, its indeed a proud moment when our 69 year old PM decides to walk sprightly out of the Mi-17, straight to the business of briefing at the Corps HQ and then goes on to give that very inspiring speech to our Officers and Men.

Try doing that after landing at Leh, immediately after flying in from Delhi, especially at his age!. There is that small issue of about 30% reduced O2 that queers the pitch. its just admirable that we finally have this PM with a S-P-I-N-E, not a wastrel (or a wench) having taken doles for private trusts from the enemy.

Lets just try and imbibe the message he is trying to get across, shall we please?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 21:59

Hari sir,

What in your view is the possibility of paki mischief on the western front in medium term?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 03 Jul 2020 22:07

Hari Nair wrote:Larry Walker, what, if I may ask, are you asking further in the contextual?
I for one, got the message Loud and Clear. Did you not?
Also, its indeed a proud moment when our 69 year old PM decides to walk sprightly out of the Mi-17, straight to the business of briefing at the Corps HQ and then goes on to give that very inspiring speech to our Officers and Men.
Try doing that after landing at Leh, immediately after flying in from Delhi, especially at his age!. There is that small issue of about 30% reduced O2 that queers the pitch. its just admirable that we finally have this PM with a S-P-I-N-E, not a wastrel (or a wench) having taken doles for private trusts from the enemy.
Lets just try and imbibe the message he is trying to get across, shall we please.

I think it came off incorrect - I have never been prouder of having Modi as my PM in recent times then after today morning. I am not commenting on his Leh visit - that's a master-stroke and has jingo hearts ablaze. Point i was trying to make is that since Modi chooses his words very carefully - it is first time in this entire conflict that he has coined the term against which out dharmic fight is - expansionism.

The reason I stressed on it is to hint answer to the earlier question of whether Modi's intent is to just push back current Chinese incursion. In that context I said that he went beyond the contextual message of defending sovereignty and integrity and he said this is our fight against expansionism.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Jul 2020 22:08

^^^ @ RS Singh...
Our Aman-ki-Aasha Blokes appear to have leased their airfields out to our neighborhood Bat-Eaters, from what ever OSINT is appearing online.
Also, there appears to be all the likelihood of diversionary fronts opening in the West. A likely clue which various observers have alluded to, is the surprising silence and lack of decibels from the western front - in a usual build-up those Pyjama-wallahs would usually be screaming their Pathan throats out by now.

So as you suggest, its very likely we are looking at our worst-case scenarios may play out in the medium term.
- Just my 2 paise on that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 22:19

Ah, I figured as much. I suppose it’s time to put the fear of god in them, again. As for the bat eaters and GEISHA Xi, to not pacify the barbarians at this stage will be untenable. The game has indeed started. The part that worries me the most is the internal front. I wonder what dirty tricks they have left to play.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 22:20

Larry Walker, I see that many in here are talking out their time to explain some basic facts to you. That time could be better spent by them providing more valuable insights. Since you need to connect the dots from A-B-C onwards, please do it offline. Giving you a month time off from the forum. Please use that time constructively. Thank you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 03 Jul 2020 22:23

Rs_singh wrote:Ah, I figured as much. I suppose it’s time to put the fear of god in them, again. As for the bat eaters and GEISHA Xi, to not pacify the barbarians at this stage will be untenable. The game has indeed started. The part that worries me the most is the internal front. I wonder what dirty tricks they have left to play.

^^^^ - @ RS Singh -- I agree - especially the internal front - they have activated all their sleepers - from the paid journos, the weeping left liberals, et al.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ashokk » 03 Jul 2020 22:30

Now, Russia faces China's ire over Vladivostok founding day celebrations
Russia and China got into a diplomatic spat after the Russian embassy officials posted a video on China's Weibo of a party to celebrate the 160th anniversary of the founding of Vladivostok.
Chinese officials including Internet users leapt on the video and slammed Russia asserting that Vladivostok used to be part of China which was apparently Qing’s Manchurian homeland but was annexed during the Tsar era in 1860 after China's defeat in the second opium war.

Welcome to the club! :mrgreen:
Last edited by Ashokk on 03 Jul 2020 22:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 22:32

Hari Sir,

It’s imperative to let hard power talk externally and we FINALLY have The Man with the guts and resilience to see this through. Inwards though, we do have a weakness but I would hope the people see these jokers for what they are. People often forget Somnath was sacked 17 times, we rebuilt it 18 times. When it comes to perseverance, history would be hard pressed to find a better example than the Indian civilization.

Jai Hind, sir.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 22:42

Okay I think Amit Shah is more than capable for dealing with the internal traitors. I am definitely sure that he is keeping eye on the deshdrohis inside India while Modi deals with the Chinese. Whatever tricks the internal traitors have to play will have to pass through the Amit Shah barrier.

And btw today, there was a news about India briefing 5 countries. I found one country was missing. That is the UK. Despite strong criticism coming from UK regarding Hong Kong. I found it very weird to include Germany but not UK.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Pratyush » 03 Jul 2020 22:42

With claim on Vladivostok, eleven has just poked the bear.

Enemy to the East,
Enemy to the south.
Enemy to the west.

Now

Enemy to the North.

The one word for this is called being surrounded.

Can the PRC really be that stupid???

Or they think that they will succeed where Nazi Germany failed in fighting both the USA and USSR, and defeating both in the same war.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 22:44

Pratyush wrote:With claim on Vladivostok, eleven has just poked the bear.
Can the PRC really be that stupid???

Or they think that they will succeed where Nazi Germany failed in fighting both the USA and USSR, and defeating both in the same war.


One word. Self delusion. They think their time is here and now ordained by heaven. They are going the 72 route just in a Chinese sort of way.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 22:46

Rs_singh wrote:One word. Self delusion. They think their time is here and now ordained by heaven. They are going the 72 route just in a Chinese sort of way.

:lol:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 03 Jul 2020 22:50

Prem Kumar wrote:
k prasad wrote:He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.....

How do we know he is American?

He was part of Trump entourage.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 22:55

mahadevbhu wrote:This is likely to....

Thank you for that insightful post. It will be your last one on this forum. Goodbye. Lifetime ban for you!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 03 Jul 2020 23:07

Manish_Sharma wrote:
skumar wrote: ....2. It is unlikely that the Chinese will target large Indian metros with conventional bombs and even if they do, the escalation path from there is very very short. Either the conflict will be localized to < X kms from LAC or it would be all over the place.


What if they target our Army formations, Aibases with their Short Range Ballistic Missiles? Do we have Prithvis in large numbers to counter-hit their Airbases and Army formations with? As cruise missiles have light warheads of 300 to 400 kilos while BM has at least 1 Ton warhead plus speed north of 20 Mach; a 1 Ton Warhead hitting at the speed of 20+ Mach in Mountains will damage many times more than 300 kilo warhead at subsonic speed.

They will use Short or Medium Range missiles who's speed is nowhere close to Mach 20 - and terminal velocity will low single digit mach. We have seen multiple demonstrations of their use in the middle east recently, there is nothing spectacular about it. As far as their SRBMs and rocket artillery is concerned, the best counter we have is to take them out via airstrikes. If we are able to maintain air superiority over the area, I'm sure their rocket/missile force can also be dealt with.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 23:11

One thing I must strongly oppose is all this talk of using BMs, any range, does not matter. NO BMs, I categorically state, CAN be used in a state on state conflict because of ambiguity of warhead. Unless, either state feels it’s existence is threatened, BMs will not come into play. CMs, arty are another subject all together and even those will be localized. So, as a request, can we please stop all the talk about BM use against conventional targets using conventional warheads.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 03 Jul 2020 23:41

Rs_singh wrote:One thing I must strongly oppose is all this talk of using BMs, any range, does not matter. NO BMs, I categorically state, CAN be used in a state on state conflict because of ambiguity of warhead. Unless, either state feels it’s existence is threatened, BMs will not come into play. CMs, arty are another subject all together and even those will be localized. So, as a request, can we please stop all the talk about BM use against conventional targets using conventional warheads.


Honestly I don't see the Chinese forgoing the use of tactical BMs at least (not the fancy-shancy long range DF21/31/41 that some people are dhoti shivering about (at least until things are desperate for them)). And I don't expect them to strike at civilian targets (again unless they start getting desperate). They have invested a lot in that capability and its one of the aces they have especially to make up for weaker air power. If Iran can use them against US why not China against us?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 03 Jul 2020 23:47

williams wrote:done.

Thank You. Greatly appreciated.

Jarita wrote:Was such a classic lobbyist fellow. We should have kept him around to see the new arguments they will come up with. But I guess for that we have Indian media.

Indeed.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 23:52

https://twitter.com/Iyervval/status/1278983541619998721
Abhijit Iyer-Mitra @Iyervval

3 things you should know about China
1) historically they’re hyper-aggressive when powerful
2) stop looking for a “reason” for their aggression. Historically there never has been a “reason”
3) Morality & principle will get you slaughtered - the Chinese are ruthless
I mostly agree with Abhijit ...

2. Their being able to push is reason enough though they do have tactical/strategic aims.

3. Chinese frame of reference on ethics is very different

Also, as other have pointed out before, Humans are apt to use their frame of reference for others behavior. Therefore, Chinese think we will act like them while Indians think the Chinese will listen to reason like us. BIG mistake.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 04 Jul 2020 00:09

Hari Nair Sir,

A couple of questions, if I may.

1. What is your assessment of the PLA Rocket Force's (previously 2nd Artillery Corps) employment in such a situation? I have read Indian assessments (on the USI site) that their doctrine deliberately hides an offensive capability in the garb of a defensive capability (NFU) by co-locating conventional and nuclear assets in the same formations viz. the Rocket Force. This also seems to be consistent with some western observations (Dennis Blasko) on PLA doctrine. Is it in their doctrine to let the fight remain localized to a border conflict or to expand very quickly to the hinterland in an example of 'shock and awe'?

I understand that it is quite different from their modus operandi in 1962, but at that time they neither had the means nor the vulnerability to an Indian response in kind.

2. Looking at the Depsang Plains Rte/ Road to SSN on Google Earth gives me a better appreciation of what you said earlier - that the terrain there is very different from that further south to Demchok. Reading reports from 2016, most of our armor deployment have been in the latter area. My question is whether that was because of the threat at that time there or because even APCs or BMPs cannot be employed further north towards DBO. Alternatively, is it better for the IA/IAF to use attack helicopters on any Chinese armor formation threatening DBO?

I understand if these questions can't be answered on an open forum, but would appreciate any insights that can be shared.

Thank you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 04 Jul 2020 00:49

The last time bullet fired were not 45 years before.. It was in 1987. No wonder it took 9 years to resolve.
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/army-officer-scales-peak-stumbles-across-outpost-named-after-her-dad/articleshow/63225642.cms

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 04 Jul 2020 01:01

Prem Kumar wrote:
k prasad wrote:He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.....

How do we know he is American?


LinkedIn... Temple University and U. Pittsburgh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 04 Jul 2020 01:08

Rs_singh wrote:RaviB,

Thanks haha.

Question for all, when this war begins, do you think it will be war to restore status quo with all limitations imposed on the military, ala Kargil, or do you think we will take the initiative and force a settlement on our terms? Strictly political question for now. I know military realities play into this but for now, politically speaking, what is your assessment?


I think for India, the objective would be:

1. Restoration of the status quo ante
2. Demonstrating resolve
3. Deterring future incursions
4. Incentivising resolution of the boundary

I don't think there is any appetite for imaginative scenarios like a march to Lhasa or freeing Tibet or even for reclaiming Aksai Chin.
It will probably be a Kargil replay

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Leonard » 04 Jul 2020 01:17

Things HAPPENING behind the scenes .. From a TWITTER post ..

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/1278605043810422786

>>
India has a military edge due to many reasons including geography as I showed your boss
@HuXijin_GT via my tweet thread a few days ago.

Our leaders know it, so do yours which is why they are calling for disengagement

Recent mobilisation facts : You moved 4 Mech Division...against us last week. This is in addition to 6 Mech Division that you started the fracas with. How did you start ? You expanded the scope of your summer exercises in Tibet and used 3/4 times the forces that you usually exercise with.

Then under cover of exercise your 6 Mech broke off and made a mad dash to Ladakh. Its constituent brigades (all arm brigades) went to 3 different areas including Samzungling opposite #GalwanValley Galwan.

You thought you would catch us by surprise and roll down the valley. But you were stopped #galwanvalleyclash

Similarly you reinforced areas to North of #Pangong So lake, #Gogra etc. But we stopped you in each place, including destroying your camp in Gogra and building our defences in under a week

In addition to evicting you from incursion areas, we also deployed in depth mirroring

your deployments in depth.

Last week you brought in your 4th Division

Against this we have 3 Div in Leh + Armoured Brigade and have reinforced with a Division plus. I am told almost 2 Divisions plus at least 1 more armoured brigade if not 2. All acclimatised and ready

We have more than enough arty there. Remember #GalwanValleyFaceOff ? In addition to 16 Punjab we had elements of 3 Punjab, 3 Medium Regt and 81 Field Regiment. Thats 2 Infantry +2 Arty batallions. Please ask yourself how come elements of 2 Arty regts came so fast to join the hand to hand fight ?

Answer - they are deployed very close !! 2 full arty regts of 18 guns each in support of an infantry brigade of 3 batallions. That's Double the standard deployment of arty

There is more in reserve

In mountain warfare the attacker needs a significant numerical advantage from 3:1 (in flat terrain like plateaus) to 12:1 to assault positions on hills. And we have more troops + guns + tanks deployed

With respect , your tweets go against all military logic, laws of physics

Air Power :

I explained to you a few days ago that you have barely 750 combat a/c that come close to ours in entire PLAAF, of which you can only deploy a handful in Ladakh +Xinjiang

See detailed analysis by
@bennedose
. 160 a/c is all you can manage

So whats your end game ?

You have encroached on F4-F8 area in north bank of Pangong Hso. Plus you have occupied heights on F4. But we can dominate you by both observation and fire from the South Bank of the lake

If things go kinetic, you will be hammered

So you want to disengage from all points except Pangong So and win that disputed area without firing a shot. Just like you do in South China sea against Vietnam and also against Phillipines, Japan, Thailand. Salami Slicing

You keep negotiating and at same time you keep mobilising

A word about our economic action

We have banned 59 apps, banned your companies from construction contracts in India, banned you from bidding for 4G upgrades. 5G is obviously out of the question.

You are a mercantilist country. This has hurt you. Do you think our leaders would have taken these steps if we did not have the capability and the will to back them up militarily ?

The only reason we did these is that we have military edge. Now ball is in your court

<<<

From PM Modi's speech -- it is now apparent THINGs will go kinetic in next 24-72 hrs.

Things we know ..

1. PLAF has leased "fields" from PAF

2. PA has deployed 2 Battalions at least in GB ?

Things WE KNOW that we DON'T KNOW ..

1. KINETIC starting point ...

2. Size of FIGHT in PLA (From Galwan .. we kind of have an idea ... :lol: )

3. What the "PA" expects will be the "take" -- most likely will be "GIVE" .. :rotfl:

THINGS we KNOW ..

1. Artificial SOOPER-DUPER "TOYS" in hands of PA/PLA BOYS -- have not much meaning
F-104 vs MIG 15 or MENGSHI vs Boys with "rods" or F-16 Block 52 vs MIG 21 BIS

2. How MUCH -- KINETIC energy we CAN produce ...
(HINT --> Ask the PA -- since ART 370) ??

3. The LOCN where we can MAXIMIZE the FULL deployment of KINETIC energy ..
(PA -- Hint -- 1500-5000 body bags in 1999 vs 20,000+ in 2020 ) may be kind of hard to hide in OSINT ?

Best if "Emperor XI" realize's that POWER by itself has NO meaning if there are NO grey cells to use it wisely ..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 04 Jul 2020 01:19

https://missionvictoryindia.com/splitti ... bloodshed/

Splitting the Anatomy of the Galwan Valley Bloodshed

"Speaking to the OC Rear of 16 Bihar, it turned out that Lt Col Maninder Nagpal, Capt Arjun Deshpande and Capt Manangma of 16 Bihar were the most daring and they ferociously led their troops to avenge the death of their CO."

In the fog of war, a lot of misinformation flies. Ill-informed but self styled defence experts and politicians always push through home made theories. Some of these so called experts had perhaps never ever seen high altitude terrain in their entire life or service careers. But they must appear on TV channels to narrate true lies. This is what had happened about the scuffle that ensued between Indian and Chinese troops in Galwan valley of Eastern Ladakh on 15-16 June 2020.

Galwan in Kashmiri dialects means ‘Strong Man’ or a ‘Pehelwan’ (Wrestler). The river emanates at Aksai Chin and flows East to west for 80 km through gorges of high mountains upto 17000 feet. It joins the Shyok River in the Shyok Valley. The Galwan River valley is named after Gulam Rasool Galwan of Leh, who, as a young boy, had accompanied British expeditions in the Himalayas as a guide in the late 19th century.

In one of the expeditions in 1899, led by Lt Col. Charles Murray to the Pamir Mountains in Tajikistan, the party had lost its way due to bad weather. It was young Gulam Rasool Galwan, who found the way through this river valley. Thus, the river was named Galwan after him.

The Galwan River Valley was the flash point of the 1962 war. In its 1959 claim line China had claimed the entire valley upto Shyok River confluence of the Galwan River. The Valley became a flashpoint after China constructed a road between Xinjiang and Tibet, without India's consent. The highway is now known as G219. After building the road, the Chinese lay a claim to the area, first in 1959.

The valley was defended by a company of the Gorkha regiment of Indian Army in 1962 after China had constructed G219 through Aksai Chin. And then suddenly this Gorkha locality was surrounded by PLA on 6 July 1962 . The brave Gorkha troops remained cut off for three months. On 4 October 1962, a Company of 5 JAT was sent to reinforce Gorkha company by the Indian Army. PLA fired on this company and killed 36 men of the JAT coy. This was the starting point of the 1962 war.

Ever since 1962 , the Galwan valley has been under occupation of China. Protective Patrol - 14 is the only point in the mouth of Galwan valley that India controls, it is on theLine of Actual Control (LAC). The significance of this PP-14 is that it screens Chinese peep into the Shyok River confluence with the Galwan River. India has recently built a bridge over this confluence. Besides, a Link Road to PP-14 is being constructed from this bridge on the DSDBO Road, which is probably the bone of contention. See the Satellite images below.

It must be noted that LAC/border with China is not marked. The Galwan valley had been on the Eastern side of LAC, which is under Chinese control, and this has been the case for the last 58 years. Galwan valley was lost during the Prime Ministership of Pandit Jawahar Lal Nehru, and it has been status quo since then.

Therefore, if Prime Minister Narender Modi says that China has not entered our side of LAC, he is right. Those who make noise that he has surrendered to China, have no idea of history and also the ground situation. Most of them forget what Nehru had said of Aksai Chin, to remind these forgetful minds, it is reiterated that he had surrendered it by saying: “Not a blade of grass grows there.” As of dste India has not surrendered its claim either on Aksai Chin or Galwan valley. It has only said the obvious reality that LAC since 1962 is well under Indian Control, and it includes PP-14.

Anyway, let me reiterate the significance of Galwan valley, as I have brought out earlier that India had constructed a road to DBO from Shyok and Darbuk. It is 255 km long, and it has strategic importance of logistics support and also switching of forces to DBO. The point of issue is not this but the Link Road being built to PP-14. This is giving a headache to China. Chinese think that India could launch an offensive towards Aksai Chin using Galwan Valley. PP-14 obstructs their direct view. Even China has built a road from Aksai Chin to this valley. Unconfirmed reports say China was building a dam over this river to flood the area in times of crisis.

The present crisis of 15 June 2020 was due to Chinese attempt to come up to PP-14. In fact they had created a tented camp below it around 10-12 June 2020. This camp was forcibly removed by India on 12/13 June 2020. Probably, Some fatalities were suffered by PLA in this action. This perhaps had enraged the Chinese and again by 14 June 2020, they set up a fresh tented camp in 14 June 2020. This was detected by India on 15 June 2020 and it led to a deadly scuffle. Tell tale marks of the true incident have now begun to appear in many accounts and they have opened up a Pandora’s box of many lies. One has to just join the dots to visualise a true picture.

At the risk of repetition, it is a known fact that the bone of contention in the Galwan River valley and not the Darbuk - Shuyok - Dolat Beg OLDI (DSDB) Road and a bridge over the River Shyok and River Galwan confluence. To be frank, it was the 12 14 km link from this Bridge to Protective Patrol Point 14 (PP14) . This point is at the LAC and has been under Indian Control since 1962, and like 1962, it might become the flash point of another war if China does not desist from its aggression. Perhaps, it does not realise that millions of cubic acre feet of water had flown through the Galwan River over the last 58 years. The year 2020 is not the year 1962.

The significance of this Link Road is that it is a pincer aimed at the Galwan valley which could further be linked to a Chinese Road going to China’s Western Highway (G219) passing through Aksai Chin. The more important tactical advantage of PP 14 is that it screens Chinese overview of Shyok river and DSDBO Road. This was the advantage China wanted to deny to India. From the left edge of the bridge see a black streak of road going North. This is the link to PP 14. China had pitched a tented camp just a few hundreds meters from PP14.

On 6 June 2020 , an agreement was reached between the Chinese and Indian commanders (Major General Liyu Lin Commander of South Xinjiang Theatre of China and Lt Gen Harinder Singh of 14 Corps of India) to appropriately withdraw from present locations. India was to fall back 1.5 km Westward and China by 2.5 km Eastward. The disengagement was to be completed by 15 June 2020.

Indian troops before pulling out wanted to ensure that Chinese too had pulled out. Information available from various accounts suggests that a patrol of 10 men under a Major from 4 Mahar/16 Bihar was sent to ascertain this fact. They found the tent and burnt it, as they were returning they were surrounded and captured because Chinese were fully armed.

As soon as CO 16 Bihar, Col Santosh Babu learnt this, he rushed to the spot with 30 men to negotiate this. It is learnt that Chinese were on a higher ground and Indian patrol party was slowly climbing. We must know that at 15,000 feet and so, the foot movement is very sluggish and slow. One can not rush and climb. One loses breath, also the track was so narrow that one could only move in a single file — one man behind the other. This is why the road to PP-14was constructed. The news is that the job has been done.

As the Col Santosh ‘s party was some 60-100 meters from Chinese tent , they shouted at him to come alone if he wanted to negotiate about the patrol. . Col Santosh agreed and moved up with two Men. It may be noted that CO and his two men were unarmed, as is the norm in all such flag meetings. After reaching they had a heated exchange for 4-5 minutes but Chinese gave in and agreed to withdraw. As soon as the CO and his men turned, Chinese attacked him with nailed Clubs and all three fell badly wounded.

Seeing this rest of the CO party radioed it to the base and charged towards the Chinese. A hand to hand fight began. Indians had bayonets charged to rifles as an answer to Chinese nailed Clubs and Iron rods. It may be noted that Indians are well trained in close combat and bayonet fighting.

In the meanwhile, Chinese reinforcements of 400 men joined but so did 200 men from 16 Bihar and adjoining units. Thus it became a joint operation of mixed troops also from Arty, Mahar and Punjab Regiments. Accounts now filtering out are that 16 Bihar men and other Indian troops had gone berserk. The Ghatak platoons (Commandos) of other battalions had joined in. Chinese were running a halter smelter. The troops were 16 Bihar, 3 Punjab, 4 Mahar, 3 Med Regt and 181 Field Regt. It was a joint operation.

A Deccan Chronicle report of June 19, 2020 gives out a survivor participant’s account to say that a minimum of 18 PLA soldiers' necks were snapped —— they could be seen with their necks dangling from their bodies.

Another report from a JCO, as an eye witness of Arty, who came with the mortal remains of another Arty JCO to Patiala, corroborates the ferocity of all men charging the Chinese. He gave the story of 16 Bihar men going berserk and blasting the life out of PLA soldiers. In this melee Chinese Bulldozer caused a landslide and with it many PLA Soldiers went hundreds of feet into the icy Cold River Galwan and probably died.

Upon talking to OC Rear of 16 Bihar, it turned out that Lt Col Maninder Nagpal (2ic), Capt Arjun dDeshpande (3yrs), Capt Manangma (2yrs) of 16 Bihar were the most daring and they ferociously led their troops to avenge the death of their CO. Another soldier of the Arty regiment, Sepoy Surinder Singh is stated to have killed 10 PLA Soldiers with his sword. He is an Amritdhari Sikh. He too got wounded in the head and is convalescing in Leh Hospital.

Though India declared 20 dead including Col Santosh Babu, China too suffered heavy casualties. China did not give out the number of casualties. Global Times claimed that it did not give out a number of casualties because it did not want confrontational sentiments to escalate. This is a typical lie of a Communist regime.

Some Indian estimates put the Chinese casualties at 43. This they estimate from the helicopter trips coming to collect the casualties, which India allowed . But American report from intercepts suggests that there were 35 dead, possibly a few officers including Cols and Majors. This does not include the soldiers who went down in the river when the landslide took place. Therefore some estimates say that China suffered between 128 to 150 casualties.

What about the Indian patrol of one officer and 10 men which was taken Prisoners by China on 15 June. A hush hush report in some papers like The Guardian and The Dawn of Pakistan suggested that they were released on 18 June 2020 in exchange of Chinese soldiers held by India. But it was unduly denied both by Indian Army and Chinese Foreign Ministry.

However there is an interesting twist in the tail. It is that on the said night, a patrol from 3 Medium Regiment of Indian Army, had captured a Chinese Colonel and a few men who were running away from the scene of action where 16 Bihar soldiers had gone aggressive. The release of 10 men of Indian patrol is a give and take of this Chinese Col and his men. Chinese definitely learnt a lesson so as not to mess with Indian soldiers.

Finally, a word about three treaties India had signed with China on Border Management in 1993, 1996 and 2013 which prohibits the use of firearms on the border. This is a joke. There are more casualties due to physical fights with swords, nailed bats and iron rods which both sides carry. India should free its soldiers of such restrictions.

But what about the treaty signed by Congress Party and Sonia Gandhi with Communist party of China in 2008 ? Is it not strange that some of the leaders of this party are now obliquely questioning Indian soldiers and their bravery . In fact they are supporting the Chinese narrative which is full of lies. The president of this party had dinner with Chinese envoy in July 2017 when the Doka La crisis was on. They should realise that in matters of national security, nation comes first always and every time — no matter how deeply one is befriended with foreign nationals.

Indians happily stay alive; some do their business, some sit in the Parliament and assemblies, most Chit chat peacefully on social media platforms but some do verbal aerobatics with their lungs in TV rooms. All this is possible because the soldiers play with their lives on the borders. The Galwan River episode must shake their conscience. It is the sacrifice of the soldiers which make the netas and commentators safe. A grateful nation must honour the Galwan Heroes of Night 15-16 June. Their raw courage displayed against a well prepared enemy must rule the nation's soul!

(The author was a former CO of 3 Bihar. Views expressed are the authors own, and do not reflect the editorial policy of 'Mission Victory India')

(Col Rajinder Kushwaha is an ex-NDA, commissioned into the 3 Bihar Regiment in June 1971 and was the Commanding Officer of same unit in insurgency environs in Assam in 1990-93. Has vast experience in CI Ops from North East to Punjab and J&K. A prolific writer-cum-critic on defence and security matters, he has authored the book, ‘Kashmir: A Different Perspective’. His second book on Assam was released in April 2018. Held prestigious appointments in the army including as an instructor at a premier army institute, Col GS, Col Adm of an Infantry Division and Col "Q" works at a Command HQ. He can be contacted on e-mail: rajee749@yahoo.com)

Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 04 Jul 2020 01:25, edited 1 time in total.

kirpalbasra
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 04 Jul 2020 01:25

Chins is looking for a face save that much is clear. But is it acceptable to India. The Congress has also made it clear the dirty sods that they want every inch of LAND THE Chinks are on to be given back . This you know is impossible as every one knows there will be a comprise. Now what is acceptable to India. I cant believe that a country has a enemy in its own soil. BY the way great speech my modi . The internal enemy is the most dangerous.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dnivas » 04 Jul 2020 01:39

I so want retribution against the Chinese.
my uncle was KIA in 1962

Any bridge culvert road coming into Tibet should be blown up in the beginning moments of the war. let them supply their princes through an 3000 km air bridge

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramdas » 04 Jul 2020 02:36

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Last edited by Rakesh on 04 Jul 2020 02:39, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: mahadevbhu has been permanently banned. Do not reply to him.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 04 Jul 2020 02:40

So all this is from them thinking that they can stream down the Galwan valley ?! Now they want a face saver as that plan failed ?!

Hmm - I don't get it...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 04 Jul 2020 02:42

https://twitter.com/DivyaSoti/status/12 ... 3168866304
Divya Kumar Soti @DivyaSoti

India has deployed one more division to Ladakh, now as many as four army divisions stand deployed to counter Chinese aggression along LAC in EasternLadakh.

Our deployment in Ladakh has gone from 3 Divisions to 4 divisions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 04 Jul 2020 03:09

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/DivyaSoti/status/1279078043168866304
Divya Kumar Soti @DivyaSoti

India has deployed one more division to Ladakh, now as many as four army divisions stand deployed to counter Chinese aggression along LAC in EasternLadakh.

Our deployment in Ladakh has gone from 3 Divisions to 4 divisions.

2 to 3...most likely.

Idiot journo. Has not a clue about orbat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 04 Jul 2020 03:41

Babaji told he is visiting the snowy mountains, didnt fathom he is accompanying Modi


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