India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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D.Mahesh
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby D.Mahesh » 11 Jul 2020 20:39

Interesting thing going on among the pre-2014 universalists/internationalists aka IFS-Lobby.
Appeasers of yore have now become Right-of-Rightists - just another way to try subversion. Read the usual rags/DDMs where u can find this game going on.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 11 Jul 2020 20:56

SidSoma wrote:
AshishAcharya wrote:Another way is to fund insurgency in Tibet/Xinjiang. China is paranoid about people revolting, while our resilience comes from the fact that we have faced insurgencies since 1947, China is very underconfident about handling any insurgency without over reacting.


China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.


Who told you that? They are the ones protecting and shielding all the North Eastern terrorists in their safe houses for a long time. And have been funding them for a long time too

And they had a direct hand in the 2015 Manipur ambush on our security forces. They are indirectly sponsoring all insurgency starting from Naxals to Kashmir to North Eastern ones by actively funding, supporting and protecting the terrorists.

So for all I care, it's time we raised the costs of these actions for them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 11 Jul 2020 21:00

TWITTER

@Firezstarter1

Jeez. This scaremongering article completely ignores the fact that the Indian Armed Forces, GOI stared down the PRC in a historic confrontation, matched its military mobilization. This despite a decade of undermining mil capability during UPA, and a gradual recovery thereafter.

This is not a quick race. But the fact is that now the Armed Forces are better placed than before to deter ground incursions. India is gradually recovering its economic mojo when PRC has cheesed off most major powers by showing its imperialist cards.

In terms of the IAF, Navy, historic gaps are being plugged. Serviceability, combat potential are being steadily improved. The broken DPP process has been bypassed by devolving emergency powers to the services. The budget is actually being utilized.

Indian states are actually competing with each other to woo business. This, during a pandemic. During the same pandemic, Indian business reinvented itself to become a PPE exporter and GOI moved to limit the PRCs overambitious reach into the Indian economy.

All, this has been done despite umpteen crisis. Where do these academics then get their belief that India is just going to roll over and that it has no options? The Quad, economic outreach to Japan, multiple other factors in play are clearly evident.

And there is the dimer question which none of these folks were able to answer. If PRC was indeed so powerful, and India so weak, why didnt the Pak/PRC axis just steamroller India? Here's what happened. The PRC tried to armtwist and stare down India, it flopped.

The fact is the PRC has been salami slicing for ages. It tried playing the Pak card too. India has drawn a line in the sand. Literally no other state has done this. Most acquiesced. India mobilized for war. During a pandemic. Yet, we have acads in Singapore claiming "weakness".

If anything, it just shows the capacity India has developed. As India reforms, fixes its procurement/MIC (OFB in particular), reorients towards domestic production + imported silver bullets, PRCs military window is shrinking, not expanding.

And at times like these, historic times, we have fear-mongering about caving into PRC's denands. As if. PRC isnt 10 feet tall. As John Paul Jones once said "I have not yet begun to fight". That, is India's strategic position. Its getting into its stride. And once it does, well.



https://twitter.com/Firezstarter1/statu ... 46433?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 11 Jul 2020 21:33

Mollick.R wrote:In statement, Chinese envoy skips claim to Galwan Valley
Sachin Parashar | TNN | Updated: Jul 11, 2020, 03:17 IST

NEW DELHI: Confirming that Indian and Chinese troops are disengaging at LAC as per the consensus reached by the military commanders, Chinese ambassador Sun Weidong Friday called for the two countries to have timely strategic dialogue, enhance mutual trust and to shun suspicion and friction in bilateral ties.
In comments which seemed aimed at soothing frayed nerves here, Sun called for India and China to meet each other "half way" at a time they were faced with a complex situation. He said the two countries should be partners and not rivals.

Full Article Here........//Times of India Link
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/lets-not-fall-into-trap-of-conflict-china-ambassador/articleshow/76900892.cms


I don’t trust the ToI to report truthfully whether the Chinese ambassador referred to Chinese claims on Galwan or not.

Has anyone actually been able to listen to the so-called “long statement” of Sun?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 11 Jul 2020 21:47

SidSoma wrote:
AshishAcharya wrote:Another way is to fund insurgency in Tibet/Xinjiang. China is paranoid about people revolting, while our resilience comes from the fact that we have faced insurgencies since 1947, China is very underconfident about handling any insurgency without over reacting.


China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.

No we aren’t of course. China can do anything. Let’s just dissolve BRF and shibber in our dhoties.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 11 Jul 2020 21:50

ramana wrote:This is covert action will liberate is a myth. It's a nuisance at best.

It’s not about liberation. Just something to mess with Cheeni piskology and goad them into intemperate and stupid actions that will harm them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 11 Jul 2020 22:13

My personal opinion is that raising the non-state actor stakes is not going to be as productive in terms of leverage. Let's look at it in terms of cost-effectiveness.

As was pointed out earlier, a few knife attacks in Xinjiang gave PRC enough reason to launch a full fledged internment of the Uighurs. Hell, it might've even been Chinese false flag operations to give themselves a fig leaf justification. Supporting Uighur or Tibetan non-state actors will only result in a massive mobilization in those regions which only adds more conventional PLA forces and infrastructure buuldup in areas from where they can move more quickly to the LAC. Both of these places are too far from the Chinese economic centres to do any real damage to them in terms of national or economic security. Instead, it'll just provide them justifications to launch repressions that they might actually want, and accelerate Han migration to these regions. Nothing is more advantageous for the Chinese state than a Uighur and Tibetan ethnic cleansing and replacement of these regions with more Han migrants.

Plus, they can use that to further ramp up costs to us in terms of increased Support to NE and Naxal groups. Not that they aren't doing it already, but the risks to our internal security and economic security are higher, because the NE separatist groups and Maoists are located in our hinterlands, and very well established. Try bringing in economic development and FDI into such a region!

The way we can really hurt PRC is in their pocket -- COVID gives a great reason. If we can be agile and make India business and manufacturing-friendly, we can very quickly entice companies looking to move from China, and set up manufacturing hubs in places like MP, Chattisgarh, Bihar, and UP, which are currently primed for such development. It will impose a long-term cost to PRC far greater than any support for armed insurgencies would gain us. We can't do that if these places are dealing with their own security issues. As Thakur said... Loha garam hai. Maar do hathoda.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SidSoma » 11 Jul 2020 22:26

KLNMurthy wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.

No we aren’t of course. China can do anything. Let’s just dissolve BRF and shibber in our dhoties.


We have been dealing with Pak Terrorism for years. We have put in a security grid in place. We have RR battalions. We have a fenced IB, we have a fenced LOC. We have high troop presence in Kashmir. Do we have similar infrastructure in North East. Is it the same level of preparedness. If yes then proceed with the action. If no, then put it in place so that we can be ready for the reciprocal action.

I think it is easy to ridicule a thought, esp when content is absent.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rishirishi » 11 Jul 2020 23:19

AshishAcharya wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.


Who told you that? They are the ones protecting and shielding all the North Eastern terrorists in their safe houses for a long time. And have been funding them for a long time too

And they had a direct hand in the 2015 Manipur ambush on our security forces. They are indirectly sponsoring all insurgency starting from Naxals to Kashmir to North Eastern ones by actively funding, supporting and protecting the terrorists.

So for all I care, it's time we raised the costs of these actions for them.


I am not doubting this, but do you have any source please. I need it, if I am to make a case.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rsatchi » 11 Jul 2020 23:57

https://youtu.be/2FYSRGvu_3c
Indian channel reports Gen Zhou removed from western command and central military council
May even be court-martialled

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pushkar.bhat » 12 Jul 2020 00:05

Rsatchi wrote:https://youtu.be/2FYSRGvu_3c
Indian channel reports Gen Zhou removed from western command and central military council
May even be court-martialled


I doubt the news of the removal of Gen Zhao Zongqi is true. It is at best wishful thinking on our part. I will be pleasantly surprised if this happens so soon although I have previously commented that Emperor Eleven is looking for a scapegoat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 12 Jul 2020 00:52

China cannot take out Indian Airfields. Distance from Delhi to G219 is around 700km. 30 LCA MK1 flying from Delhi can conduct 30x5 = 150 Raids on G219 everyday dropping 2 tons by each aircraft of cluster bombs Forward Airfields will be used to hit deep inside China, while Airfields of Amritsar, Ambala, Jalander, Ludhiana, Delhi, jaipur, Agra can hit targets near LAC.

Forget LCA, even Hawk would be able to do some light CAS for ground troops.

Except 1 airfield in Hotan, all other Airfields of Tibet are useless. MTOW limitation can be upto 40%. And how many Aircraft can Hotan hold?

On -ive, side, Ballistic missiles of China can not only hit runway but even fuel, ammo, hangers, mess etc can get hit.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 12 Jul 2020 01:40

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yxFYHdeF0gw
India's Strategic Roads: New Thorn In China's Side


The most important screenshot from the video ...
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanjiv » 12 Jul 2020 02:20

My father was at Sela for 4 years 1965 to 1969

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby g.sarkar » 12 Jul 2020 04:34

Worth a look:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9lh3Pgd79A
China's Masculinity Crisis
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 12 Jul 2020 04:48

Gyan wrote:China cannot take out Indian Airfields. Distance from Delhi to G219 is around 700km. 30 LCA MK1 flying from Delhi can conduct 30x5 = 150 Raids on G219 everyday dropping 2 tons by each aircraft of cluster bombs Forward Airfields will be used to hit deep inside China, while Airfields of Amritsar, Ambala, Jalander, Ludhiana, Delhi, jaipur, Agra can hit targets near LAC.

Forget LCA, even Hawk would be able to do some light CAS for ground troops.

Except 1 airfield in Hotan, all other Airfields of Tibet are useless. MTOW limitation can be upto 40%. And how many Aircraft can Hotan hold?

On -ive, side, Ballistic missiles of China can not only hit runway but even fuel, ammo, hangers, mess etc can get hit.

The combat radius of the LCA is?
The combat radius of Hawk is?
Are ballistic missiles meant for tactical targets?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 12 Jul 2020 07:10

Rishirishi wrote:I am not doubting this, but do you have any source please. I need it, if I am to make a case.


Here are the links. https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... /#comments

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newind ... 164324.amp

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 12 Jul 2020 07:56

pushkar.bhat wrote:I doubt the news of the removal of Gen Zhao Zongqi is true. It is at best wishful thinking on our part. I will be pleasantly surprised if this happens so soon although I have previously commented that Emperor Eleven is looking for a scapegoat.

We don't know. But, in 1987, the then Chengdu military area commander was removed after the Sumdorong Chu issue. But, doesn't the Tibet MC come directly under the PLAGF HQ rather than WTC? Also, what about Gen. Xu Qiliang who was especially transferred from ETC for this operation?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 12 Jul 2020 08:54

Gyan wrote:
30 LCA MK1 flying from Delhi can conduct 30x5 = 150 Raids on G219 everyday dropping 2 tons by each aircraft of cluster bombs


Cluster bombs OR Durandals?



https://youtu.be/_m-buvo3dj4

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 12 Jul 2020 09:05

SidSoma wrote:China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.
SidSoma wrote:
KLNMurthy wrote:No we aren’t of course. China can do anything. Let’s just dissolve BRF and shibber in our dhoties.


We have been dealing with Pak Terrorism for years. We have put in a security grid in place. We have RR battalions. We have a fenced IB, we have a fenced LOC. We have high troop presence in Kashmir. Do we have similar infrastructure in North East. Is it the same level of preparedness. If yes then proceed with the action. If no, then put it in place so that we can be ready for the reciprocal action.

I think it is easy to ridicule a thought, esp when content is absent.

The ridicule comes because of a fantastical claim, not backed by content - the same standard you are expecting. Please remember that the very first insurgency the Army fought was in the NE - specifically the Naga insurgency, which is still going on today, albeit at a much reduced intensity (NSCN-K is the only faction left fighting the govt). The IA still has some of its troops deployed in a COIN role in parts of the NE. So it's not that we don't have resources to deal with any blowback.

Given the landlocked nature of the region, who do you think supplies the weapons to these movements? One could argue the pakis did so via east Pakistan, but that threat was more or less taken care of in '71 (yes, some elements in BD continued to play but at a much reduced rate). Whereas many of these insurgencies went on strongly till the turn of the century - so who armed and supplied them? Someone did post a link about the Chinese connection in the Manipur attack, that led to the surgical strike in the terror camps in Myanmar. Myanmar itself has had to deal with insurgencies in its northern provinces bordering China and India, and recently their officials released a statement almost naming China as their backer. As that idiom goes, it talks like a duck walks like a duck, so must be a duck onlee..

Now let's talk about the maoists, i.e. the old naxalite movement. The weapons for them came primarily from Nepal, and were moved along the so-called "red corridor". Yes, the pakis were again active in keeping this alive, but with a self-proclaimed title using Mao's name, do you really think China did not help these people out? Given that China and Pakistan have been cahoots for decades now, it only stands to reason that China had an involvement in arming these people as well. One could argue the Purulia-type arms supply sustained these maoists, but the scale of such operations was limited at best. Only a supply via land could have sustained this movement for so long.

Anyway, while there aren't any (and won't be) authoritative "sources" that would clearly show a link to Zhongnanhai, the involvement of China is clear and obvious. Now, please share your thoughts on why you think China did not help fan these insurgencies in India. Don't say they did only a little and all that - either they did, or they didn't. We are not in a measurement contest here, so if they fanned the flames of insurgency even a little bit, they are fair game for retaliation. As simple as that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kumarn » 12 Jul 2020 09:30

the LAC has shifted westwards i.e. into Indian-claimed territory.

He said it had shifted 12-15 kms in Depsang, 1 km in Galwan, 2-4 kms in Gogra and 8 kms in Pangong Lake. Shukla said: “I’m absolutely sure about this”. He said: “This would be the largest loss of territory to China since the 1962 war.”

https://m.thewire.in/article/security/g ... -along-lac

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 12 Jul 2020 09:34

kumarn wrote:the LAC has shifted westwards i.e. into Indian-claimed territory.

He said it had shifted 12-15 kms in Depsang, 1 km in Galwan, 2-4 kms in Gogra and 8 kms in Pangong Lake. Shukla said: “I’m absolutely sure about this”. He said: “This would be the largest loss of territory to China since the 1962 war.”

https://m.thewire.in/article/security/g ... -along-lac


A combination of Wire + Shukla makes Global times seems like Swarajya. I wouldn't even open the link.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 12 Jul 2020 10:07

SidSoma wrote:China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.


SidSoma, you receive a warning for this. Next will be a ban.

Though it is well known for a long time about the Chinese support for various insurgent groups operating in the North East, the Chief of the IB, Nehchal Sandhu openly raised the issue in the conference of police chiefs from across the country on September 15, 2011. He accused Beijing of ‘intrusive interest’ in these insurgent groups. In March 2013, the Minister of State for home affairs M Ramachandran said in the Parliament, “. . . there are reports that the insurgent groups operating in the north eastern states of India have been augmenting their armoury by acquiring arms from China and Sino-Myanmar border towns and routing them through Myanmar. The government of India has taken up the matter with the Chinese side through diplomatic channels.” On June 4, 2015, NSCN (Khaplang) militants attacked an army convoy of 6 Dogras in Manipur's Chandel district killing 18 soldiers and injuring 11. Though India retributed the loss through a stunning Special Forces attack on the NSCN (K) insurgent camps well inside Myanmar and killing over 70 of them, Indian media accused that the NSCN (K) was egged on by the PLA to launch the attack on 6 Dogras. The Indian media report had quoted an official claiming that the government had acquired recordings of a phone call in which a PLA official asks the NSCN-K leader about his health and tells him to learn the Chinese language.

One of India’s most-wanted armed insurgent leaders, Paresh Barua of United Liberation Front of Asom, has been found to be living in the Chinese town of Ruili in the Yunnan province. On November 7, 2015, the London-based Mukul Hazarika alias Abhijeet Borman alias Abhijeet Asom, Chairman of the ULFA (I) sought the Chinese assistance openly for the liberation of Assam. He told Times of India, “China is our next-door neighbour. The watershed moment has arrived for indigenous Assam to prompt us to build that friendship with China with confidence. We sincerely hope that China will put forward the hand of friendship towards Assam without hesitation.”

In December 2015, Thailand extradited Wuthikorn Naruenartwanich alias Willy, a Thai arms dealer who was a go-between between the Chinese arms suppliers and the Indian insurgents. The details of Willy’s role emerged after NIA (National Intelligence Agency) arrested senior leader of Naga insurgent group NSCN (IM) Anthony Shimray, a nephew of NSCN founder T. Muivah and IM faction’s chief arms procurer. Shimray was arrested in 2010 in Patna, when he had come to India from Bangkok via Nepal. He startlingly said that the Chinese agents in 2009 had even offered to sell surface-to-air missiles to the Naga rebels for $1 million.

On May 22, 2016, the Union Government admitted officially in front of a tribunal formed to adjudicate the ban on the NSCN(K) insurgent outfit under the Unlawful Activities (Prevention) Act (UAPA), that “The government has also been informed that, at the behest of the Chinese, various north-eastern insurgent groups met in April 2015 in Myanmar to form a revolutionary front under the leadership of S.S. Khaplang, self-styled chairman of the NSCN-K, and the outfit smuggled weapons into India and intensified violence in the North-east, particularly targeting security forces.” The NSCN (K) broke the 14-year ceasefire with the Centre on March 27, 2015. Thereafter, the outfit launched a string of attacks, including an ambush that killed 18 soldiers in Manipur on June 4, 2015.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 12 Jul 2020 10:26

@Ssridhar... whats the reason for the warning to SidSoma? Great explanation btw.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby wig » 12 Jul 2020 10:40

https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... t-6500207/

Chinese order of battle in Aksai Chin: What are we up against?

extracts
The border troops have been reinforced by mobilising more combat forces, most likely from the 6th Mechanised Infantry Division, a northern or high-altitude manoeuvre formation. This formation is normally based at a distance from the Aksai Chin on the southern boundary of the Taklamakan Desert. It constitutes the Southern Xinjiang Military District’s primary operational reserve and is earmarked to be first responders to any operational crisis in the region. This deployment replicates that of the 2017 Doklam crisis where border management troops manned the frontline with manoeuvre regiments from regular formation held further back as a striking reserve.

By May-end, units of main battle tanks and batteries of towed artillery had been deployed at existing Chinese positions north and east of Gogra. This combination of heavy armour and towed artillery is now quite rare in the PLA following the latest military reforms. Normally armoured fighting vehicles would be supported by self-propelled artillery. What is known about the 6th Mechanised Infantry Division is that it has still to receive self-propelled artillery. This is also true of the three other mechanised divisions in the Xinjiang Military District.

In the Pangong Tso and the Fingers Area, the Chinese have now stationed themselves in a strong way in Finger 8. On May 18 and 19, the PLA had brought in around 2,500 troops to the sub-sector. These were regular rather than Border Defence Regiment personnel. This was done very visibly the obvious intention being to overawe the relatively smaller Indian contingent facing them on the lake’s bank. They have established a logistics hub along with deployment of armoured fighting vehicles. Bigger boats for dominating the water bodies and transporting assault troops across them have been brought in. The road built by the Chinese from Finger 8 to Finger 5 alongside the lake also helps them in the quick transfer of troops from there to the Finger 4 base. There is considerable Chinese build-up. This has resulted in shorter reaction time and time taken for movement of troops.

In the Galwan River valley, a Chinese infantry platoon deployed at Patrolling Point 14 (PP14) had been withdrawn by the fourth week of May. The main PLA camp was then established three kilometres further back in territory already occupied by them. We do not know at the moment whether this unit is supported by armour or artillery. Such manoeuvre or fire support seems unlikely in the absence of viable road communications. This has been planned for some time but remains unfinished. A further reinforcement of the sector seems unfeasible at the moment.

What is known is that China now has built up force levels along the LAC to include another mechanised infantry division trained and equipped for high-altitude warfare. Which one could this be? My view is that either 8th or 11th Motorised Infantry Divisions, part of the Xinjiang Military District’s three mechanised formations held in reserve some distance from the Aksai Chin have been deployed.

and
The Chinese normally have two divisions trained and equipped for mountain warfare deployed in the Tibet region. Generally reliable sources claim that reacting to the current crisis and Indian build-up they have brought in close to two extra divisions from locations as far as 2,000 kilometres from mainland China as a counter-measure. This is outside the Aksai Chin region.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby wig » 12 Jul 2020 10:43

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... key-111597

13 gaps in mountains along LAC hold key -Indian Army has defensive positions ‘tailored’ to hold back China’s PLA

extracts
These routes are natural gaps in the mountains along the 826-km LAC in Ladakh. Starting from east of the Karakoram pass, the northern-most point, and ending at Demchok, the southern-most edge of Ladakh, these gaps permit major land-based war-waging equipment and troops to pass through. Some eight of these 13 routes are open even during the winter as these areas get little snowfall, a senior functionary said.

Large parts of Ladakh are a flat plateau at more than 12,000 feet, but the mountainous parts are rugged, treeless and inhospitable. The possible ingress routes (gaps in the mountains) are all across, but in a bigger concentration in the Depsang plains — the route that was used during the 1962 war. Another set of gaps is in Hot Springs area. The route running south from Dungti to Demchok has another set of gaps. In the eastern part of Ladakh abutting Tibet, India has a deterrent at all these 13 routes. However, the forthcoming winter in Ladakh, that starts in September, will be a test. The mistrust between the two armies means both could hold on to major deployments at these gaps.

The aggression being shown by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) China has turned the focus on these routes. On the Indian side, the defensive positions, built in the past 10 years or so, mean the gaps have been ‘militarily tailored’ to hold back the PLA.

On the Chinese side, its highway G-219 can be used for a quick build-up.The Tibetan Plateau on the Chinese side is flat and gets lesser snow than the Himalayas or the Karakoram ranges. Indian estimates are that G-219 can be used by the PLA even in peak winter as snowfall in the area is never more than 2 feet and can be cleared with machines within hours.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 12 Jul 2020 10:50

k prasad wrote:@Ssridhar... whats the reason for the warning to SidSoma?

Sorry, Prasad. Can't be discussing reasons etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SidSoma » 12 Jul 2020 10:50

SSridhar wrote:
SidSoma wrote:China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.


SidSoma, you receive a warning for this. Next will be a ban.


1. I am neither endorsing China nor disparaging/questioning IA capabilities.
2. My wording is "to an extent" ... meaning not as actively as Pakistan and ISI
3. Are we ready, probably is a way to enlist the infrastructure we have in place to deal with NE insurgencies. We see new on a daily basis of the anti terror infra in Kashmir. My question was do we have the same level of sophistication in the NE. IMO the NE insurgensies are nowhere as active as the Kashmir insurgencies and hence currently have not needed such a response. How would we go about putting such an infra structure in place. Would new paramilitary be needed etc (like we sorely miss the Mountain strike corp)

If provoking thought deserves a ban please fire away. :)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Jul 2020 11:18

wig wrote:https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/nation/13-gaps-in-mountains-along-lac-hold-key-111597

13 gaps in mountains along LAC hold key -Indian Army has defensive positions ‘tailored’ to hold back China’s PLA

extracts
These routes are natural gaps in the mountains along the 826-km LAC in Ladakh. Starting from east of the Karakoram pass, the northern-most point, and ending at Demchok, the southern-most edge of Ladakh, these gaps permit major land-based war-waging equipment and troops to pass through. Some eight of these 13 routes are open even during the winter as these areas get little snowfall, a senior functionary said.

Large parts of Ladakh are a flat plateau at more than 12,000 feet, but the mountainous parts are rugged, treeless and inhospitable. The possible ingress routes (gaps in the mountains) are all across, but in a bigger concentration in the Depsang plains — the route that was used during the 1962 war. Another set of gaps is in Hot Springs area. The route running south from Dungti to Demchok has another set of gaps. In the eastern part of Ladakh abutting Tibet, India has a deterrent at all these 13 routes. However, the forthcoming winter in Ladakh, that starts in September, will be a test. The mistrust between the two armies means both could hold on to major deployments at these gaps.

The aggression being shown by the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) China has turned the focus on these routes. On the Indian side, the defensive positions, built in the past 10 years or so, mean the gaps have been ‘militarily tailored’ to hold back the PLA.

On the Chinese side, its highway G-219 can be used for a quick build-up.The Tibetan Plateau on the Chinese side is flat and gets lesser snow than the Himalayas or the Karakoram ranges. Indian estimates are that G-219 can be used by the PLA even in peak winter as snowfall in the area is never more than 2 feet and can be cleared with machines within hours.

The problem is how to get on G219, from Hotan county the road is closed during peak winter, similarly in winter there is impact on Tibetan railway, roads from Chengdu and the driving along to Ladakh. Till the Rotang tunnel opens it is costlier for us to keep supplies in winter, once the Rotang tunnel opens it becomes much cheaper for us to keep Ladakh supplied in winter.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 12 Jul 2020 11:27

SidSoma, B.Raman book on RAW (https://www.amazon.com/Kaoboys-AW-Down-Memory-Lane/dp/097961743X) Pg 29-38 clearly describes how the Chinese gave arms and training to the Naga rebels. In fact, he says even the AK47 that we captured from Paki terrorists were Chinese made (pg 276). They were and are actively involved. I think the Chinese have done a good job through their commie proxies inside our camp to keep our public in the dark. Chins exploit every fault line of ours and it is time to start looking at their political fault lines. It may not be supporting a Tibetan insurgency, but it should be something that will tie them in internal conflicts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 12 Jul 2020 11:40

SSridhar wrote:
k prasad wrote:@Ssridhar... whats the reason for the warning to SidSoma?

Sorry, Prasad. Can't be discussing reasons etc.


Just trying to understand the forum rules thats all... esp if the warning was for anything in the posts openly readable on the forum.

I've been here for nearly 13 years, but sometimes the rules are still confusing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 12 Jul 2020 12:12

Range of LCA MKI with 2 x 1000lb bombs, 2 x CCM, 1 x LDP, Drop Tanks is 2000km. In any case its adequate, to fly from Delhi to hit G219 which is distance of 700km.

Brochure at:-

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 91200?s=19

Hawk Range with 500kg bombs (2x500lb cluster bombs) is 500km.

Kargil was a different situation, where we had to hit point targets on mountains. Here Jaguars, Hawks can be used to fly through valleys & hit area targets on Chinese side, if required

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 12 Jul 2020 12:52

I have marked all the Chinese roads in Demchok area--->
Image

The thick yellow line is the actual on the ground control line, which is mostly Indus river...
The blue/Cyan lines are Chinese roads... Thick blue line is G219 Highway...
Green lines are India roads (I haven't marked all roads... Only main roads)

Chinese control the North, East and South East parts...
Indians control the West, Central and South West parts...

Chinese control the heights on North side from Fukche to Demchok and on both sides of the road from Demchok to Ngari...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 12 Jul 2020 12:54

Gyan wrote:Range of LCA MKI with 2 x 1000lb bombs, 2 x CCM, 1 x LDP, Drop Tanks is 2000km. In any case its adequate, to fly from Delhi to hit G219 which is distance of 700km.

Brochure at:-

https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 91200?s=19

Hawk Range with 500kg bombs (2x500lb cluster bombs) is 500km.

Kargil was a different situation, where we had to hit point targets on mountains. Here Jaguars, Hawks can be used to fly through valleys & hit area targets on Chinese side, if required


Do you know the difference between range and combat radius?

So fly through valleys in jets that have performance issues at altitide and that to in a MANPAD dense environment?

Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 12 Jul 2020 13:15

LakshmanPST wrote:I have marked all the Chinese roads

The thick yellow line is the actual on the ground control line, which is mostly Indus river...
The blue/Cyan lines are Chinese roads... Thick blue line is G219 Highway...
Green lines are India roads (I haven't marked all roads... Only main roads)

Chinese control the North, East and South East parts...
Indians control the West, Central and South West parts...

Chinese control the heights on North side from Fukche to Demchok and on both sides of the road from Demchok to Ngari...

The Chinese were strategic, the took flat land in 1962, it was not based on treaties but strategically important land.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rsatchi » 12 Jul 2020 13:25

AshishAcharya wrote:
SidSoma wrote:
China has to an extent stayed out of our North East insurgencies. Are we ready to deal with a reciprocal action.


Who told you that? They are the ones protecting and shielding all the North Eastern terrorists in their safe houses for a long time. And have been funding them for a long time too

And they had a direct hand in the 2015 Manipur ambush on our security forces. They are indirectly sponsoring all insurgency starting from Naxals to Kashmir to North Eastern ones by actively funding, supporting and protecting the terrorists.

So for all I care, it's time we raised the costs of these actions for them.

Ashishji
Also remember the so called red corridor from Nepal to South India funded and propagated by none other Chin!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 12 Jul 2020 13:28

So, official brochure of LCA gives One way Range of aircraft armed with weapons rather than combat range? So IAF will fly LCA with bombs & never come back or just bomb on their own airfield? In any case, one way range of LCA with drop tanks is 3000km+.

Fast flying low level jets cannot be hit by Mapads except in your imagination.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 12 Jul 2020 14:11

Gyan wrote:So, official brochure of LCA gives One way Range of aircraft armed with weapons rather than combat range? So IAF will fly LCA with bombs & never come back or just bomb on their own airfield? In any case, one way range of LCA with drop tanks is 3000km+.

Fast flying low level jets cannot be hit by Mapads except in your imagination.

Ok. You know best...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rsatchi » 12 Jul 2020 16:36

Gyan wrote:So, official brochure of LCA gives One way Range of aircraft armed with weapons rather than combat range? So IAF will fly LCA with bombs & never come back or just bomb on their own airfield? In any case, one way range of LCA with drop tanks is 3000km+.

Fast flying low level jets cannot be hit by Mapads except in your imagination.


https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-suppli ... anpads.htm
Gyanji
Look at the Russian aircraft loss in Syria!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 12 Jul 2020 16:43

Rsatchi wrote:
Gyan wrote:So, official brochure of LCA gives One way Range of aircraft armed with weapons rather than combat range? So IAF will fly LCA with bombs & never come back or just bomb on their own airfield? In any case, one way range of LCA with drop tanks is 3000km+.

Fast flying low level jets cannot be hit by Mapads except in your imagination.


https://www.globalresearch.ca/us-suppli ... anpads.htm
Gyanji
Look at the Russian aircraft loss in Syria!!

Does not happen in his universe...and range, combat range and ferry range are all the same..


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