India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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schinnas
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 01 Aug 2020 14:46

With the Cheeni amb statements it's clear that Cheen isn't going back from fingers 4 to 8 and Depsang areas. Now it is up to India to counter occupy or force them out.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby uskumar » 01 Aug 2020 15:36

schinnas wrote:With the Cheeni amb statements it's clear that Cheen isn't going back from fingers 4 to 8 and Depsang areas. Now it is up to India to counter occupy or force them out.


Yes it looks like that to me too. If we don't fight them now they might declare a fait accompli and India will face pressure at various other locations of strategic importance. I think war is inevitable. We have let our enemies decide the timing of the attack. We have to take initiative to attack and attack with ferocity to ensure Chinese expansionism stops. If we don't do it now, we will continue losing territory to China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Nihat » 01 Aug 2020 15:41

It's too late to mount a military attack now when the enemy is well entrenched with clear roads reinforcement in depth areas.

We will have to pick another time and place but we must do that. 20 soldiers did not lay down their lives for nothing. Economic decoupling and punishment must continue as well.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby A Deshmukh » 01 Aug 2020 15:57

We are already taking steps on the economic front.
We can also just start limited artillery - first mortar - at one or two locations - as a warning. and keep it low profile, by calling it limited border skirmish.
be ready for escalation, but give Chin a way out to de-escalate.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prithwiraj » 01 Aug 2020 16:01

Nihat wrote:It's too late to mount a military attack now when the enemy is well entrenched with clear roads reinforcement in depth areas.

We will have to pick another time and place but we must do that. 20 soldiers did not lay down their lives for nothing. Economic decoupling and punishment must continue as well.


Winter.... I am sure Pakis will be sneaking in their NLI battled hardened high altitude mercenaries to help Chinis... so occassional softening by serving some hot “samosas” across LOC is also needed

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 01 Aug 2020 16:15

China moves PLA battalion across India’s Lipulekh Pass. It’s a signal - Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times

Because the source is a little suspect, we will await confirmation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 01 Aug 2020 16:21

Probably GoI doesn’t want issues before August 5. We will see movement post Bhoomi puja

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 01 Aug 2020 16:22

schinnas wrote:With the Cheeni amb statements it's clear that Cheen isn't going back from fingers 4 to 8 and Depsang areas. Now it is up to India to counter occupy or force them out.

Post 5 Aug we will fight

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Yagnasri » 01 Aug 2020 17:23

GoI will not have issues on starting point. In fact any attack by China during August 5th or just before that date will only increase the national resolve.
Last edited by Yagnasri on 01 Aug 2020 17:27, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 01 Aug 2020 17:29

https://www.orfonline.org/expert-speak/ ... ssion=true

Celebrating Rafale, rethinking India’s national security

SAMIR SARAN

As five Dassault Rafale fighter jets – the first of 36 India agreed to purchase from France four years ago – landed at Ambala Air Force base, there was understandable celebration among civilians and those who don the military uniform in India. After all, this is the first high profile defence acquisition, barring the American assault helicopters, in decades.

The celebratory mood, however, must not hide the dark reality of India’s inept defence procurement process. The Indian Air Force, hobbled by fleet depletion and aircraft well past their fly-by-date, first communicated its desire to procure 126 Medium Multi-Role Combat Aircraft (MMRCA) to the Ministry of Defence in 2000.  After two decades, three prime ministers, four Governments, and a dizzying number of flip-flops and somersaults, the first five Rafale fighter jets finally landed in India on 29th July.

Opportunistic media hype apart, the arrival of these jets should be a moment of sombre national introspection. A nation that set out to procure 126 aircraft is able to obtain just five after two decades, that too by having to throw away piles of files that prevented any progress. This is a saga of a nation with an incompetent ‘system’.

India is unprepared for the ensuing decade that will witness a world in upheaval and where national security will demand a significant share of resources and human capital. The Biblical ‘Four Horsemen’ have long symbolised the end of times. An honest enquiry into India’s national security preparedness will be defined by the four horsemen whose arrival portend the coming of the Apocalypse.

First, as the MMRCA saga shows, is India’s institutional inability to quickly arrive at a decision, which is invariably followed by inadequacy when it comes to swift execution of that decision.

The Rafale story serves as a demonstrator of the Indian state’s woeful (in)capacity – of its severe budgetary constraints; its inept (and self-serving) bureaucracy; its crusty defence establishment riddled with turf wars, ego battles and a vaulting sense of entitlement; and its incompetent political class that has spectacularly failed to rise to the defence of India by putting national security above party politics.

These stakeholders must be reminded of history’s abiding lesson: No nation has achieved its full potential without first establishing a strong national security industrial base. In recent times, India has set itself on the path to realising this goal with an overwhelming dependence on foreign powers. Even then, it has repeatedly stumbled due to procrastination by the ‘babu-neta’ combine.

Second, the inability to be honest with oneself. This is marked by the inability to read history correctly and to recognise India’s real enemy. Despite the obvious lessons New Delhi should have drawn from its defeat in 1962, it has largely privileged placating Beijing only to further fuel China’s untenable ambitions. As part of this perverse posture, India’s custodians of discourse have downplayed the bloody nose India has given China on at least two occasions last century and even the significant battlefield losses inflicted on China this summer.

India’s many dalliances with China, be it at BRICS or over the AIIB (Asian Infrastructure Investment Bank), were shaped by the romanticism of co-creating an ‘Asian Century’. That should have ended with Doklam in 2017. It was a promise China never meant to keep or maybe never even made at all.

We have hidden facts from 1962 onwards from all, and we continue to hide facts about Chinese behaviour and action even today. Since 2013, Chairman Xi has made abundantly clear his absence of interest in Asian multi-polarity. In Doklam, he shouted it through a megaphone for all the world to hear. China apologists do not hear and do not care.

They fail to assess China as an implacable neighbour and Xi as afflicted with an insatiable lust for power and territory. They ignore the China that views India as a civilisational foe and the Communist Party that seeks to undermine its neighbour’s political, economic and social architecture. Instead, these ‘experts’ crowd out other views from powerful pages, explaining Beijing’s malfeasance as a consequence of India’s sovereign decisions, internal politics and enhanced partnership with America.


What will it take for India to admit, unambiguously, that its neighbour is a long-term geopolitical rival and an existential threat? The tangential elements of this outlook are in place: India’s rejection of China’s Belt and Road Initiative and, more recently, its digital avatar. But the question is: Will such tactical moves serve as the cornerstone of a long-term strategy? Or, since the elephant in the room can no longer be ignored, is the template for Wuhan 2.0 being drafted by the blind men (and women) who have over the decades led India to its China conundrum?

Third, the inability to sense and seize an opportunity. Many countries have realized, or are beginning to, that they hedged their bets in Asia incorrectly. Their misplaced mission to socialise China into a rules-based international order having totally failed, they are now confronted by the reality of an imperial Beijing. Can New Delhi leverage this opportunity?

In 1972, China sensed America’s need to counterbalance the USSR and used that moment to sneak past the Iron Curtain. The Great Thaw was less a Henry Kissinger masterstroke and more a Mao success. The historic photograph in The Washington Post of a grinning President Richard Nixon with an inscrutable Paramount Leader Mao Zedong told the story best.

Beijing thought ahead and seized the moment, letting Washington foolishly believe it had stolen a march over China. Neither Nixon nor Kissinger could look beyond their immediate political imperative; China looked into the future, almost into the next century.

The lesson from that singular act of China was, and remains, that shadows of the past should not be allowed to precede India’s foray into a new world order. In 1971, Nixon ordered the US Seventh Fleet’s Task Force 74 into the Bay of Bengal as a nod to America’s ‘tilt’ towards Pakistan and to signal opposition to the Indo-Soviet Treaty.

But history moves in unpredictable cycles. The contrast between then and now is striking: The US has sent a carrier battle group into the region at a time when India and China are locked in a border confrontation. This time round, the group is exercising with Indian naval forces, bolstering a US-India partnership dedicated to resisting China’s coercive tactics and ensuring that the Indo-Pacific remains free and open. Clearly, 2020 is not 1971.

Asia has come a long way since the 1970s. In the retail market of the region’s geopolitics, India still commands a premium. As prospects of a two-front war become increasingly probable, can India shed its coy reluctance and operationalise arrangements that will welcome American naval presence in the Arabian Sea and the Bay of Bengal? A US frigate or two would send the signal to Rawalpindi to behave if India and China do engage militarily in the Himalayas. It would, in the medium term, also allow India and the US to manage the inevitable increase of Chinese presence in the Indian Ocean.

The first step towards this would be operationalising, even if for optical purposes, the Logistics Exchange Memorandum of Agreement by inviting US ships exercising in the region to use Indian facilities. This should further expand into the Indian Ocean with India facilitating an agreement on the Chagos Islands by leveraging its bilateral relations with Mauritius. A US presence at Diego Garcia is in India’s interest. It always was; now more than ever before.

Simultaneously, and before it’s too late, India must militarise its southern tip, the Andaman and Nicobar Islands: An air base and a naval docking facility are passé; India needs its very own Diego Garcia in its own national waters. If India does not do it now, very soon a rising crimson tide will leave it with no political room to have any choice. Far from matching China on the seas, if the Rafale saga is a pointer, Indian boats may need Chinese permission to leave the lagoons as our hardware would be weak and partnerships non-existent.

Although there is bi-partisan consensus in the US on Washington’s China policy, it is worth recalling that Joe Biden was part of an Administration that once harboured imaginations of a ‘G-2’ world. Drawing the US into the Indian Ocean and India’s seas will stymie such inclinations as well as get rid of the shadows of 1971 that lurk in some minds.

From the seas to the mountains, India must use the response to China’s hostility to its advantage – boldly, robustly and openly. For instance, the Quad can be taken beyond maritime security if India were to invite its partners for mountain exercises in the Himalayas next summer. China has militarised the Line of Actual Control (LAC). India militarising its Himalayan zone and creating special multilateral training and collaboration programmes would be an apt sovereign response.

The ongoing confrontation in Ladakh reminds us that claims over territory have to be backed up by connectivity, military presence and control. We may need to prepare for a highly militarised and un-tranquil LAC in the coming years.

As always, our commentariat will be pleading and pushing for ‘inaction’ as a policy option, in the mountains and in the seas. The underlying argument will be consistent with the ones deployed in the past – our actions must not provoke the dragon. The fact remains that China’s belligerence is not predicated on India’s actions, it flows from Beijing’s hostile and expansionist worldview.

Last, though not least, the inability to take its citizens into confidence. India is the only nation with great power ambition that has not adopted a formal and declared national security strategy. What passes for one is the frail doctrine of ‘strategic autonomy’, open to multiple subjective interpretations. Like ‘Panchsheel’, ‘Non-Alignment’ and ‘South-South Cooperation’, it is just another convenient phrase. It serves as a shield for indecisiveness, not as a lighthouse for agile decision-making.

Beyond the shrill prime time media wars that shape the foreign policy outlook of India’s voters, they largely have no metrics through which to judge the actions of their elected Government. India’s 1.3 billion citizens deserve far better. But since that awareness is denied to them, they applaud the landing of five fighter jets while awaiting another 31 on some unknown date, even as the country faces off Xi’s forces in the north and a ‘terror factory’ to its west.

The question is, should we ignore the four horsemen and continue marching straight into a geopolitical Apocalypse?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby wig » 01 Aug 2020 17:33

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... 3JEDO.html
China moves PLA battalion across India’s Lipulekh Pass. It’s a signal

Simultaneously, Indian military officers in Ladakh noticed a huge effort by Chinese troops to bolster its strength in the depth areas, and give infrastructure projects on its side a hard push. Chinese troops have augmented its presence on its side of the LAC elsewhere too.

“There has been accretion of PLA troops across the LAC at Lipulekh Pass, parts of North Sikkim and Arunachal Pradesh,” a top military commander said.

Lipulekh Pass, which falls on the Mansarovar Yatra route, has been in the headlines for the last few months after Nepal objected to a 80-km road built by India to the Himalayan pass. The Lipulekh Pass is also used for annual barter trade during June-October between tribal populations living on either side of the Indo-China LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 01 Aug 2020 17:56

Yagnasri wrote:GoI will not have issues on starting point. In fact any attack by China during August 5th or just before that date will only increase the national resolve.

Saar, China already attacked and occupied. We are not doing anything other than sayin long haul and BS. if you need to attack, which needs political will , which is seriously deficient in all political parties, I gave benefit of doubt to modiji that he could issue orders to attack post 5 August Bhoomi pooja. As he would have completed a major KRA of his political party mandate

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 01 Aug 2020 19:36

TWITTER

@DrApr007 :
#BREAKING : Indian Army deployed additional 1000 troopers near Indo-China border in Lipulekh after China deployed additional 1 battalion of PLA in the area amid ongoing tension along LAC.

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/128 ... 26112?s=19
________________________

@Frontalassault1:

China Study Group, which includes FM Jaishankar, NSA Doval alongwith top officials of Military/Agencies met this week. India will not settle for anything less than complete disengagement at all points. Army has mirrored the PLA mobilisation & winter stocking has been done.
https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 94016?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 01 Aug 2020 20:48

Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@DrApr007 :
#BREAKING : Indian Army deployed additional 1000 troopers near Indo-China border in Lipulekh after China deployed additional 1 battalion of PLA in the area amid ongoing tension along LAC.

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/128 ... 26112?s=19
________________________

@Frontalassault1:

China Study Group, which includes FM Jaishankar, NSA Doval alongwith top officials of Military/Agencies met this week. India will not settle for anything less than complete disengagement at all points. Army has mirrored the PLA mobilisation & winter stocking has been done.
https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 94016?s=19


Saar , are we hoping in winter the PLA will pull back? They have already encroached

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 01 Aug 2020 21:36

The PLA attacked between 11-14 September 1967 and again in October 1967, this was in Nathu La and Cho La, and not Ladakh. In 1962, the attack in Ladakh was in October. Matching deployments means the PLA will have to bring 3 or 5 to 1 superiority in the mountains.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 01 Aug 2020 22:40

Mort Walker wrote:The PLA attacked between 11-14 September 1967 and again in October 1967, this was in Nathu La and Cho La, and not Ladakh. In 1962, the attack in Ladakh was in October. Matching deployments means the PLA will have to bring 3 or 5 to 1 superiority in the mountains.

With due respect we need to be the attacking force. We need more numbers depending on terrain. We need to start the attack. PLA has already taken territory. What is the point In matching strengh. We must be in huge numbers and attack. If not then GoI is ok to cede land.

Disclaimer: I am a BJP voter. Nothing against GOI. Probably we just can’t do it

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 01 Aug 2020 23:21

Iyersan wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:The PLA attacked between 11-14 September 1967 and again in October 1967, this was in Nathu La and Cho La, and not Ladakh. In 1962, the attack in Ladakh was in October. Matching deployments means the PLA will have to bring 3 or 5 to 1 superiority in the mountains.

With due respect we need to be the attacking force. We need more numbers depending on terrain. We need to start the attack. PLA has already taken territory. What is the point In matching strengh. We must be in huge numbers and attack. If not then GoI is ok to cede land.

Disclaimer: I am a BJP voter. Nothing against GOI. Probably we just can’t do it


Neither the GoI or IA are going to launch an offensive unless the PLA launches an assault first, even in that case it will be a counter offensive in locations where the PLA can be overrun. Launching an offensive is costly in terms of men and material, and it simply isn't going to happen from India. The PLA won't either if there are matching forces. They aren't stupid beyond local commanders. Should an offensive from the PLA come, it will be overwhelming with missiles, rockets and artillery. Until then - a stalemate.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rpartha » 02 Aug 2020 00:17

Mort Walker wrote:
Iyersan wrote:With due respect we need to be the attacking force. We need more numbers depending on terrain. We need to start the attack. PLA has already taken territory. What is the point In matching strengh. We must be in huge numbers and attack. If not then GoI is ok to cede land.

Disclaimer: I am a BJP voter. Nothing against GOI. Probably we just can’t do it


Neither the GoI or IA are going to launch an offensive unless the PLA launches an assault first, even in that case it will be a counter offensive in locations where the PLA can be overrun. Launching an offensive is costly in terms of men and material, and it simply isn't going to happen from India. The PLA won't either if there are matching forces. They aren't stupid beyond local commanders. Should an offensive from the PLA come, it will be overwhelming with missiles, rockets and artillery. Until then - a stalemate.


It will be a stalemate unless India decide to occupy some other Chinese area... atleast if they do it - both parties can claim that the other backed down... I am just wondering why IA has not done it... so what made them not do it..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rpartha » 02 Aug 2020 00:32

Adding to above, I dont want this issue to be resolved any time soon.. atleast I see only now India taking decisions in economy front that pushes make in India... let the stalemate continue for some time without war and if the trend continues where India is pushing economic changes, it will be worth it..

Sorry in case if it is over talking for this thread...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 02 Aug 2020 00:47

rpartha wrote:Adding to above, I dont want this issue to be resolved any time soon.. atleast I see only now India taking decisions in economy front that pushes make in India... let the stalemate continue for some time without war and if the trend continues where India is pushing economic changes, it will be worth it..

Sorry in case if it is over talking for this thread...


+1

It would also give us time to discuss the competence of NSAB, CSG & General Staff.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 02 Aug 2020 02:09

Nothing’s going to happen, our reinforcements are only there to deter any further action by the the PLA, the "grey areas" occupied by them will become fait accompli. Unless the Chinese are actually planning to start some action, they will probably start thinning out from their positions in the winter, and we will use the opportunity to do the same since logistically we will be in a bad place and can't sustain such a large deployment (we are not going to shoot first anyways).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 02 Aug 2020 03:29

Learning Question: Chinese were already present on their side of the lake before all this. They had boats etc. and we had ours. What has changed now?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 02 Aug 2020 05:52

abhik wrote:Nothing’s going to happen, our reinforcements are only there to deter any further action by the the PLA, the "grey areas" occupied by them will become fait accompli. Unless the Chinese are actually planning to start some action, they will probably start thinning out from their positions in the winter, and we will use the opportunity to do the same since logistically we will be in a bad place and can't sustain such a large deployment (we are not going to shoot first anyways).


I am thinking it is going to be different this time. Modi and the team will not hesitate to use force to deny any fait accompli that Chins want after this massive deployment. All this time was given for our forces to prepare and Chins to save face and withdraw. I am hearing winter ware is being purchased in a war footing. That means the order is given to prepare for some sort of operation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VikramS » 02 Aug 2020 06:14

For those who were laughing at the idea of using a tablet to integrate IAF comms with the F-35 system computer, the Indian Rafale's have a tablet system which the pilot takes with them, and which gets plugged into the Aircraft when they are ready to fly.

That exchange showed a fundamental gap in Indian thinking.

Instead of a Can-Do attitude, there is a tendency to belittle anyone who is thinking differently, even though you yourself may not have any specialized knowledge to make that judgement call.

Compare that to the Chinese, who try to copy any thing the other countries make from Land Rovers to F35s. They might fail half the time or produce lower quality products; but they learn.



SSridhar Just kept the part relevant to discussion in this thread where the idea of using a tablet to integrate with F-35s system bus was laughed at.

Image


Further discussion on this thread.
Last edited by VikramS on 02 Aug 2020 09:29, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 02 Aug 2020 07:03

VikramS, can you take the above post to the Rafale thread?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 02 Aug 2020 08:03

Depsang & Pangong pullback stalled, military talks deferred - Rajat Pandit, ToI
With Chinese troops showing no signs of pulling back from Pangong Tso and Depsang Plains in eastern Ladakh, while also continuing to increase deployments along the Line of Actual Control right till Arunachal Pradesh, the next round of corps commander-level talks has been deferred to next week.

India “did not insist” on holding the fifth round of talks between 14 Corps commander Lt General Harinder Singh and South Xinjiang Military District chief Major General Liu Lin on July 30, as was initially proposed, in view of China’s “continuing intransigence” on the ground.

After the high-powered China Study Group held a meeting this week to fine-tune India’s strategy, officials say there could be two reasons for the People’s Liberation Army to drag its feet on troop disengagement at Pangong Tso and Patrolling Point (PP)-17A at Gogra. The PLA, for one, could still be contemplating whether it should implement the disengagement proposals it had agreed to during the fourth round of military talks on July 14. “It does take time to finalise what is acceptable and what is not, along with the requisite political approvals,” said a senior official.

“But the other reason could be that the PLA is simply biding time to present us with a fait accompli once winter sets in. Either way, we are prepared for the long haul. Restoration of status quo ante is not on the cards as of now,” he added.

The troop disengagement has been fully completed only at PP-14 in Galwan Valley, the site of the June 15 skirmish, and PP-15 in Hot Springs.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Thakur_B » 02 Aug 2020 08:18

Dileep wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Seems India is increasing the pressure on China.
This tactic is used by China to limit foreign suppliers from entering the market. The ISI standards will be strictly applied to make it "unfeasable" to import from china. Want to import shoes for example, then provide detailed data of stress test, materials used, chemicals, dyes etc etc. :rotfl:


The problem is, the domestic suppliers will also required to comply to the same standard. Chinese will produce their (NABL Certified) test reports and get the stamp. We will get fail reports from our labs, who are 'descendants of hari chandra' when it comes to these things.

Happened to us a lot, that it ain't even funny!!


Bit late to the discussion. Most IS Codes are verbatim adaptation of European or IEC codes in about 90% of the cases. Infact the fact is stated in the very first few pages of the IS Code booklet that this code is equivalent of"XX code".

This will not affect anything used in manufacturing, just low margin Palika Bazaar quality material.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dileep » 02 Aug 2020 10:01

Thakur_B wrote:
Dileep wrote:
The problem is, the domestic suppliers will also required to comply to the same standard. Chinese will produce their (NABL Certified) test reports and get the stamp. We will get fail reports from our labs, who are 'descendants of hari chandra' when it comes to these things.

Happened to us a lot, that it ain't even funny!!


Bit late to the discussion. Most IS Codes are verbatim adaptation of European or IEC codes in about 90% of the cases. Infact the fact is stated in the very first few pages of the IS Code booklet that this code is equivalent of"XX code".

This will not affect anything used in manufacturing, just low margin Palika Bazaar quality material.


My point is: The standard is the same. But the chinese labs will give "pass" report for their not-fully-compliant product, while our 'religiously honest' or 'ridiculously greedy' labs will insist on 100% compliance (often over and above what the standard intends). We have instances of chinese suppliers simply fake the test report.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dileep » 02 Aug 2020 10:24

I think we have been shown 'finger 3'* and Finger 4 by the Chinis, and we are going to take that hit. Here is why:

1. It makes much more beneficial to use it to further the political and economic agenda, and going kinetic there.
2. There is no real military advantage in kicking them out from the 'both man's land' at the cost of a war. The price we pay would be the strengthened presence at Finger 4 to prevent the chinis from pushing further, which is way cheaper than a war but give the same benefit as having the the 'both man's land'.

So, we will now have a de facto LoC at Finger 4, Y junction and Galwan, instead of two LACs and a 'both man's land' in between.

Suites me!

*Middle finger is finger 3 from either side.

abhik
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 02 Aug 2020 10:38

BTW disengagement means we also move back from our current positions, in Galwan we moved back about km from the place the clash. I wonder what disengagement at pangong lake looks like from our end.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nandakumar » 02 Aug 2020 11:44

Dileep wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:
Bit late to the discussion. Most IS Codes are verbatim adaptation of European or IEC codes in about 90% of the cases. Infact the fact is stated in the very first few pages of the IS Code booklet that this code is equivalent of"XX code".

This will not affect anything used in manufacturing, just low margin Palika Bazaar quality material.


My point is: The standard is the same. But the chinese labs will give "pass" report for their not-fully-compliant product, while our 'religiously honest' or 'ridiculously greedy' labs will insist on 100% compliance (often over and above what the standard intends). We have instances of chinese suppliers simply fake the test report.

This may be off-topic here. If so, moderators may shift it. My question is, can the import trade policy not be tweaked to say that imported goods must be mandatory tested for conformity with BIS norms?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dileep » 02 Aug 2020 13:21

^^AFAIK, no. we can't as per the WTO norms. We sure can demand in country testing. Let our labs make some money onlee.

We have done in country testing in a number of countries, with the associated funny stories.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 02 Aug 2020 13:36

It is more important to decouple from the Chini economically, than fight a war over the Fingers. Fact is GoI have been found pants down in the assessment of threat from the Chini. As usual there will no war, thought process clouds the Security establishment.

Once it starts hurting really bad on the economic front, the Chinis will escalate on LAC. It is given there will be a fight.Either we fight now or wait until the Chini escalate later. They are holding off a fight to prevent too much bleeding on the economic front.

We better get in to a fight when the economic coupling is broken completely. We need this decoupling to grow our economy. Chinis exports of finished goods have straggled out manufacturing ecosystem.

nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 02 Aug 2020 13:39

Dileep wrote:^^AFAIK, no. we can't as per the WTO norms. We sure can demand in country testing. Let our labs make some money onlee.


The interesting point is despite their cost advantage, Chini phone brands have hardly any presence in European markets. I wonder how they managed to keep them away.

We could apply the same methods..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dileep » 02 Aug 2020 13:48

nam wrote:
Dileep wrote:^^AFAIK, no. we can't as per the WTO norms. We sure can demand in country testing. Let our labs make some money onlee.


The interesting point is despite their cost advantage, Chini phone brands have hardly any presence in European markets. I wonder how they managed to keep them away.

We could apply the same methods..


It is the people's mind, not guvermand regulation. Oiropeans don't give much thought to 'two cents less' and generally look down on even Americans.

We desis on the other hand, put 'economy at any cost' as the most important thing. Also, don't forget the "anything but Indian" mentality as well. Both are long term conditioned mindsets onlee.

nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 02 Aug 2020 13:57

Dileep wrote:
It is the people's mind, not guvermand regulation. Oiropeans don't give much thought to 'two cents less' and generally look down on even Americans.

We desis on the other hand, put 'economy at any cost' as the most important thing. Also, don't forget the "anything but Indian" mentality as well. Both are long term conditioned mindsets onlee.


In defence of our population, I would say when Indian companies have applied innovation and quality, they have accepted it happily. Even the Chinis could not break the hold. The prime example being the Pulsar bike brand. Chinis have even copied them!

Competitive design and quality has never been the strength of our companies.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 02 Aug 2020 14:08

TWITTER

@drapr007
#BREAKING : FM S Jaishankar has made a big statement amid tension with China. He said that we have to be ready to fight with China. This statement came ahead of the 5th round of commander level talks with China. Earlier it was canceled but now it is to be held at 11 am today.


https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/128 ... 80417?s=20

nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 02 Aug 2020 14:10

Hopefully there is a now an awakening in our security establishment. "There will no war" thought process has clouded our establishment, irrespective of the party in power..

Although I won't hold the breath..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 02 Aug 2020 14:32

Dileep wrote:I think we have been shown 'finger 3'* and Finger 4 by the Chinis, and we are going to take that hit. Here is why:

1. It makes much more beneficial to use it to further the political and economic agenda, and going kinetic there.
2. There is no real military advantage in kicking them out from the 'both man's land' at the cost of a war. The price we pay would be the strengthened presence at Finger 4 to prevent the chinis from pushing further, which is way cheaper than a war but give the same benefit as having the the 'both man's land'.

So, we will now have a de facto LoC at Finger 4, Y junction and Galwan, instead of two LACs and a 'both man's land' in between.

Suites me!

*Middle finger is finger 3 from either side.


Some analyst you are. Screw political and economic agenda. World respects those who are capable of shedding copius amounts of blood. Both their own and more importantly their enemies'. Forget military advantage. Start killing.

And if you are unable to kill, then kindly disband the military. Just arm the regular junta with Aks and other small arms. They will fight the enemies just as fine. Infact they will also deal with the internal enemies much better.

We do not want the military for parades and defensive warfare. If they can't conquer, they are worthless. With one tenth of the current military's size, Peshwa Baji Rao was doubling his empire every couple of years. What is the achievement of the current politico military bureaucratic estabhlishment?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 02 Aug 2020 15:20

India's was a policy of "peace at any cost short of war" both with Bakistan and China. So we found ways to give concessions after concessions to "make peace".

With the advent of Modi, the concession driven "peace at any cost" with Bakistan has changed but that policy was still in play with China till the latest LAC fracas happened.

Hopefully, Modi has learned his lessons and that policy will now be consigned to the dustbin for ever wrt China too. In a sense, Xi has done us a favor just as he has done the world a favor by being aggressive about 10-15 years before China was really ready to take on the world highhandedly. To that extent this is a gain.

Now that Modi has been "backdstabbed" (humbled/played/beaten), he will not take any chances now and pull back without restoration of status quo ante. That means China will also not pull back having realized that India is not backing down.

The Chinese, to increase pressure on Modi to back-down, are further increasing forces along the LAC and that has prompted India to mirror. This stalemate (with advantages to China) is untenable in the longrun.
  1. India cannot pullback with the Chinese amassed on the LAC.
  2. China cannot pullback with the Indians amassed on the LAC.
  3. This status does not suit either India or China but neither can backoff.
  4. India needs China to go back to OLD status quo for pulling back while China needs India to agree to the NEW status quo for it to pull back.
  5. IF India backs off without the OLD status quo restored, Modi's external image is going to be hit as also his standing as one of the major bulwark against the Chinese expansionism. Modi cannot allow that.
  6. Restoration of OLD status quo will hit China because a stalemate will be read as a victory for India/Modi and a defeat for China/Xi globally but also in China. This will lend ammo to Xi's opponents within the CCP.
Likely resolution is a skirmish that will decide the NEW status quo at the LAC. India does not have to go head to head with China at Pangang Tso but can create pressure elsewhere. There are places along the LAC that are porous enough to allow for small groups of foot patrols to slip across and squat. Galwan valley too was one such location before the Chinese and the Indians started building roads right up to the bend.

I believe Modi is not someone to be taken lightly but especially when his hand of friendship is brushed aside as the Chinese have just recently done. Sooner or later there should be action along the LAC.
Last edited by pankajs on 02 Aug 2020 15:22, edited 1 time in total.


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