India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cyrano » 01 Sep 2020 22:25

Many moons ago I read a caption on an IA recruitment poster and it stuck with me:

"INDIAN ARMY - BREAKS THE WILL OF THE ENEMY" .

They have proven it in a very unique way today.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cyrano » 01 Sep 2020 22:33

nam wrote:I wonder if the PLA is trying to ingress in multiple place to 1) to see if it can get lucky 2) probe our defences 3) Stretch our forces thin across multiple location.


They will stop doing it when IA takes PoWs at every opportunity, makes an album with photos and service numbers and sends copies to PLA HQs, and honourably returns them with pay in INR after serving a few months for Swacch Bharat Abhiyan.

I'm serious.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suraj » 01 Sep 2020 22:35

suryag wrote:The alternative for PLA is to use 62s era human waves avoiding artillery, of course PLA conscripts then were blooded in Korean war dont know the psyche of the PLA soldiers today

Something that's often mentioned in the context of 1962 is the qualitative difference between PLA and IA forces. IA had only limited actions in Hyderabad and Goa since WW2, and lacked the battle hardened cadre of PLA, who had 3 decades of Civil War (they weren't doing much in WW2, letting Chiang's nationalist forces do the bulk of the work against the Japanese), and then the Korean War conflict, and then multiple Sino-Taiwanese clashes in the late 1950s.

Fast forward to 2020 and IA have a force that's had decades of experience at coin and high altitude warfare, hamstrung only by a weak polity and lack of will (and material equipment) to give them the free hand they need to implement their goals. That is changing now. PLA on the other hand, has technological and material superiority, but lacks the real world experience.

Oh and one more thing - the winter sets in from the north, not the south...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TKiran » 01 Sep 2020 22:40

WION
@WIONews
#BREAKING | India foils another intrusion bid—the third such attempt in 3 days—by China's PLA troops in Ladakh's Chumar region. Reports say 7-8 Chinese vehicles tried crossing the LAC.

@palkisu
gets you the details
https://mobile.twitter.com/WIONews/stat ... 0666813448

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cyrano » 01 Sep 2020 22:43

Oh and one more thing - the winter sets in from the north, not the south...


Absolutely Suraj saab! PLA commanders will start feeling the pressure from their troops wanting to go back to mainland.

A demotivated aggressor force is a disaster waiting to happen. It is happening as we speak.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TKiran » 01 Sep 2020 22:46

Hans are desperate. IA should have taken a large no of Prisoners of war.

They don't have any bargaining chips against IA
Last edited by TKiran on 01 Sep 2020 22:51, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Bart S » 01 Sep 2020 22:47

amar_p wrote:IA must be the kindest Army in the world if they are using flood lights and megaphones to turn back enemy troops. This technique is sometimes used against illegal immigrants and escaping convicts.

Hatsoff to whoever came up with the idea in IA to use this against PLA "soldiers" !


The PLA are very frequently, both. They are a conscript army, and clearly are attempting to illegally trespass.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Bart S » 01 Sep 2020 22:48

nam wrote:I wonder if the PLA is trying to ingress in multiple place to 1) to see if it can get lucky 2) probe our defences 3) Stretch our forces thin across multiple location.



All of the above, but most of all, attempting to be too clever by half. Works against a very passive enemy but anyone can easily turn the tables on them by doing the same.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 01 Sep 2020 22:49

1) at the cost of repetition there were no human wave in 1962 war... this is a myth ... PLA in 1962 did well planned actions with battle hardened troops. IA troops were also well trained ..motivated but not equipped / led to fight a high alt war and so we lost. Did we use human waves in Kargil..no. we tried our best but to dislodge enemy entrenched at a height , one has to put in numbers. 2) gurus..any response to my earlier q.. is trading our new positions on heights a good bargain for PLA going back to may 2020 positions?? PLA goes to finger 8 and withdraws from other places and we withdraw from the heights..the PLA returns to the heights and again comes to F4/depsang etc. what did we gain?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsingh » 01 Sep 2020 22:51

During WW2 Nazis and Ruskie were droping leaflets on each others territories promising solders long holidays with beautiful wives. We have to do this with sex starved lil princes.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suraj » 01 Sep 2020 22:51

amar_p wrote:
Oh and one more thing - the winter sets in from the north, not the south...


Absolutely Suraj saab! PLA commanders will start feeling the pressure from their troops wanting to go back to mainland.

A demotivated aggressor force is a disaster waiting to happen. It is happening as we speak.

Yes and their logistical mechanics are disadvantaged by the direction of winter onset and recession. Their depots are in the north, and they're feeding a southern border. Ours are in the south, feeding a northern border.
* As winter sets in, their region headquarters and supply headers in the north are going to be affected before the border, and they have to start sooner as a result.
* When winter recedes, their northern parts are again slower to thaw than ours.

Versus TSP, the mechanics are more or less 50:50 because the sides are on east vs west. With China, they sit in the north with a flat plateau thats quickly overrun by the cold weather, and we are on the south behind the barrier of the mountains. The weather imposes a larger logistical issue for them, and also with regard to how soon they need to prepare; they have to start sooner than us, and can only resume after us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mort Walker » 01 Sep 2020 23:02

Historically the PLA has attacked in Oct and Nov when it is dry in the high elevations. I wouldn't count on any pull back until Dec/Jan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 01 Sep 2020 23:15

the terrain/altitude also matters not only the latitude !! it has started snowing on mountaintops around Leh !!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RKumar » 01 Sep 2020 23:26

amar_p wrote:IA must be the kindest Army in the world if they are using flood lights and megaphones to turn back enemy troops. This technique is sometimes used against illegal immigrants and escaping convicts.

Hatsoff to whoever came up with the idea in IA to use this against PLA "soldiers" !


We are fools who don’t learn from history, we never attack running invaders and give them chance to live another day to fight us.

History is written by winner not by the kind hearted people. If we are winning, we must impose our wishes as our enemy will do. Give no sympathy and expect none in return.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby madhu » 01 Sep 2020 23:32

So asper the news india has hardened its position on below 5 areas. Now the question is how far is these area/hill tops from both chines and indian LAC (my guess is it s in b/w the two line).

1.BlackTop
2.HelmetTop
3.SpangurGap
4.Trishul
5.Hunan & Reqin La

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 01 Sep 2020 23:34

Suraj wrote:Something that's often mentioned in the context of 1962 is the qualitative difference between PLA and IA forces. ..
Fast forward to 2020 and IA have a force that's had decades of experience at coin and high altitude warfare, hamstrung only by a weak polity and lack of will (and material equipment) to give them the free hand they need to implement their goals. That is changing now. PLA on the other hand, has technological and material superiority, but lacks the real world experience.


This difference appears more stark at the tactical level. Going by reports, the IA took the heights after 3-4 hours of marching on foot. In contrast, the Chinese had jeepable tracks to at least some peaks along the ridgeline - yet they were not occupied. I can understand IA not forward deploying on these heights unless required - sustenance for those posts are required once you occupy them and essentially, you are revealing your hand about the usefulness of those positions in your own battle plan. In contrast, the PLA could have occupied them earlier and still sustained them through vehicles but did not do so. That suggests that their company and battalion level commanders don't have the same appreciation for the lay of the land for a wartime scenario as the IA does, perhaps a direct result of the decades of deployment in the mountains of an officer starting as a Lt and going all the way to a Lt. Gen.

Edited: After listening to Nitin Gokhale's update, I agree that there is no evidence of our occupying Black Top. Just for historical significance, see below for the importance of Black Top:

https://usiofindia.org/publication/usi-journal/battle-of-eastern-ladakh-1962-sino-indian-conflict-2/

Deployment on the north bank of Pangong Tso lake was unsustainable and, therefore, doomed to destruction. It was nothing but forward policy posture where we thought that by deploying sections and platoons on indefensible features, we will scare away the Chinese. Sirijap 1 and 2 has neither any tactical significance nor defensibility. Our defences should have been on high ground to the west within easy turn round distance and maintainable from our administrative base at Phobrang.

Unfortunately, deployment was faulty at Chushul. Instead of holding the ridge line east of Chushul which was not held by Chinese at that time, we decided to hold the low ground of Maggar Hill, Gurung Hill and Rezang La. Two most important features which should have been held are Black Top and Mukhpari. By not holding these features we not only denied ourselves observation of Chinese buildup opposite Chushul but also allowed Chinese to roll down on our defences on the low ground. Troops at Gurung Hill, Magar Hill and Rezang La were, therefore, foredoomed.

It would also be prudent to mention here that 114 Infantry Brigade had sufficient troops for the defence of Chushul. Faulty deployment only enabled the Chinese to overrun our defences piecemeal.

There was no logic in deploying a battalion (5 JAT) spread out between Tsaka-La in the south and Lukung in the north, a total distance of nearly 30 kilometres. To compound the folly, one company of this battalion was in DBO Sector. Also apart from protective elements, deployment of a battalion in area Jetty and Thakung made no tactical sense. The Chinese could not have mounted a brigade attack across Pangong Tso.

Even 13 KUMAON had only two companies deployed on the ridge line ie, Magar Hill and Rezang La. Balance of the battalion was deployed in a low ground nearly four kilometres in depth at Track Junction where a memorial of the valiant troops stands today.
Last edited by Anoop on 02 Sep 2020 00:34, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 01 Sep 2020 23:47

I'm still inclined to believe that we don't hold Black top (which is on their side of the LAC, and they literally have observation post on the shoulder plus a road from both sides) - as reported by Nitin G and others. We did however beat them on a race to capture the ridge line to the south of the lake (which is exactly on the LAC, but about 4-5Km from the actual lake shore) - and this is what the Chinese are crying about. All this talk of encircling them, POWs etc would have started an actual firefight and not just sabre rattling - at best its just psyops to make them loose face.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 01 Sep 2020 23:49

'PLA Air Force Is Being Built For Strategic Coercion,' Say Former IAF Officers

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 02 Sep 2020 00:07

abhik wrote:I'm still inclined to believe that we don't hold Black top (which is on their side of the LAC, and they literally have observation post on the shoulder plus a road from both sides) - as reported by Nitin G and others. We did however beat them on a race to capture the ridge line to the south of the lake (which is exactly on the LAC, but about 4-5Km from the actual lake shore) - and this is what the Chinese are crying about. All this talk of encircling them, POWs etc would have started an actual firefight and not just sabre rattling - at best its just psyops to make them loose face.


Till negative news is not confirmed, No harm in being upbeat & positive. Perhaps China had black top, but SFF occupied it after stabbing them with love? What No?
Last edited by Gyan on 02 Sep 2020 00:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suraj » 02 Sep 2020 00:11

Interesting the tone of news from our end. One of the authors is Tibetan:
Tibet, a resource and a solution
To begin with, Tibet must get Observer status, like Palestine, at the UN. India, being the country culturally closest to Tibet and having given refuge to Tibetans, can take up the cause of Tibet. This will change the dynamics within Asia and the world. Other countries will be slowly compelled to come out in support of Tibet, just as had happened with South Africa during Apartheid. That the Tibetans are thoroughly committed to the philosophy of non-violence and compassion will easily get them world support. India has supported Tibet tacitly so far, the need is to come out in the open and show the way.

The first step every Indian must take is to start calling the “China border” as the Tibet border. After all, we have formed the Indo-Tibetan Border Police to safeguard our Himalayan borders with Tibet. India must recognise the Tibetan Government-in-Exile and His Holiness the Dalai Lama as the leader of all Tibet. Being the most important symbol of peace and a leader of a nonviolent movement, India must recognise this 85-year-old with the Bharat Ratna.

Stuff like this in the press must be causing the Chinese embassy to run around like mice right now.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 02 Sep 2020 00:46

abhik wrote:I'm still inclined to believe that we don't hold Black top (which is on their side of the LAC, and they literally have observation post on the shoulder plus a road from both sides) - as reported by Nitin G and others. We did however beat them on a race to capture the ridge line to the south of the lake (which is exactly on the LAC, but about 4-5Km from the actual lake shore) - and this is what the Chinese are crying about. All this talk of encircling them, POWs etc would have started an actual firefight and not just sabre rattling - at best its just psyops to make them loose face.


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/indian-army-foils-attempt-chinese-army-lac-chumar-ladakh-border-standoff-1717548-2020-09-01

According to sources, the Chinese forces on Monday had once again tried to close in on Kaala Top and Helmet Top in an aggressive manoeuvre. However, they were stopped by Indian forces who shouted to them using megaphones to tell them that they had been spotted.


Kaala Top is actually a hill area which lies in the Indian territory, however, there has never been any army deployment on these hills from either countries. in 2014 the Chinese Army had put tents on the Kaala Top area, but after India's objection, they returned after two months.

China has been eyeing the Kaala Top area for many years. In fact, from this area, India's territory can be monitored far and wide. Neither Chinese nor Indian troops are deployed here.


https://www.indiatoday.in/india/video/indian-troops-remove-chinese-surveillance-equipments-from-kala-top-at-pangong-1717440-2020-09-01

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/india-removes-chinese-camera-surveillance-tools-from-pangong-1717353-2020-09-01

The Chinese Army had deployed its cameras and surveillance equipment near the height close to the southern bank of Pangong Lake which has now been occupied by the Indian Army after the brief confrontation on August 29-30 when China attempted to unilaterally change the status quo.


It is inside Indian claim line:

Image

No need to dhoti shiver. There is enough confirmation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 02 Sep 2020 00:57

Baba says 27 places saw chicom movement from Arunachal to Ladhak. IA official said it is ready for campaign season (2 days ago, was it before they captures or after capturing). So what happened?
The season for war is October/November (same as in 1962, it is warm, dry and before onset of winter, meaning war cannot expand). It could also happen sooner say Sept 15. So what does IA do, goes and simultaneously capture all areas that should be captured before chinese can make their move. How many - at least 27 per Baba, perhaps more. Let's see what chicom can do. If chinese were to attack anyway Oct/November - we have pre empted them by occupying tactically/strategically points(all of them).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 02 Sep 2020 01:29

https://twitter.com/sonamrigzin1/status ... 09952?s=20 ---> Paying Tribute to Officer Coy Ldr Nyima Tenzin, Vikas Regiment, SFF, Indian Army. Martyred on August 30th, defending India against intruding Chinese PLA troops at Pangong Tso. Offered 33 years of service to protect India as a Tibetan who remain grateful for hosting His Holiness.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 02 Sep 2020 01:36

abhik wrote:I'm still inclined to believe that we don't hold Black top (which is on their side of the LAC, and they literally have observation post on the shoulder plus a road from both sides)


Black top is a few 100 m higher in elevation than the rest of the ridgeline, which makes it a strategic prize for either side. Hopefully, we have dislodged any chinese presence from Black Top, and if not, that needs to be the order of business. What gives me hope thaat we actually have black top is the Army stating that the feature is within our LAC perception.

Trying to interpolate Shukla's and other statements, my theory is that the Chinese already had sensor infrastructure and mines on Black Top, and a jeep track over the pass to Thukang, which they tried to fortify on 29-30, but we managed to reach the ridgeline and wave them back, AND then neutralize their sensors and mines in a counter-op to capture black top proper, as well as the ridge on the other side of Spanggur La in a simultaneous operation by SFF and other commando units. That's how I hope the operation panned out.

Suraj wrote:Interesting the tone of news from our end. One of the authors is Tibetan:
Tibet, a resource and a solution

Stuff like this in the press must be causing the Chinese embassy to run around like mice right now.


The publicised use of SFF is yet another smart use of optics by GoI. They could've just said army units / special forces units, but they chose to allow the news of SFF being used to leak and of the dead SFF soldier. Its a very subtle way to open up the one china question without explicitly saying so. The Chinese would've certainly gotten that message loud and clear.

I'm not so sure about explicitly raising the Tibet question Just yet. In geopolitics, real leverage comes from (to quote the Tarkin Doctrine from Star Wars) the fear of use of force, rather than the use of force itself. Once you draw a line in the sand on any of these issues, you are stuck to that position and cannot withdraw gracefully (like our initial One China agreement). Your only option is to then cross that line or be branded weak for not crossing it.

Instead, maximum leverage is at the point when you're holding the stick to draw that line, but haven't drawn it yet. Once the line is drawn, many of those options collapse, which makes things especially fraught. Plus, in the Tibet case, if we draw the line and enough countries don't cross it with us, it leaves us in a more precarious position. Maintaining uncertainty is a better way to go.

In dealing with the PLA in the current situation, our strategy should be like the python.... A python doesn't actually squeeze its prey to death in the way that people think. It just holds on tight, and applies a firm squeeze. Then, every time the prey in its clutches exhales, it tightens just a little more and holds on, until the poor animal can no longer inhale. It's excruciating and takes an hour or more, but by the end, the prey is dead.

We need to do the same... Every time the PLA attempts to ingress onto our territory, we squeeze them, and capture territory of our own, either there, or elsewhere, and most importantly... Stay there. That will immediately impose pain and punitive action on any attempts by the PLA to transgress. So far, their perception is that they can act with impunity and control the location and timing of confrontation. We need to impose a military cost on them for every attempt they make, and make that cost permanent, unless they're willing to give up their gains. Else, we will have to make do with "go back 2 km from xyz point" type agreements".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 02 Sep 2020 02:03

The following link contains the maps that accompany the travelogue "Ladakh - Changing Yet Unchanged":

https://bameduniya.blogspot.com/2013/03/ladakh-changing-yet-unchanged-missing.html

Please scroll down to the 3rd map from the bottom in the link which names some features in the area we are discussing. Thakung has an Indian post and as per reports, the observation of PLA movement was made from there. If Yula La is under Chinese occupation as claimed by the author, then the features dominating that which have now come under Indian control may be 5494 and 5260?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby g.sarkar » 02 Sep 2020 02:15

Mort Walker wrote:Historically the PLA has attacked in Oct and Nov when it is dry in the high elevations. I wouldn't count on any pull back until Dec/Jan.

I just saw an interview with Gen Syed Ata Hasnain, where he said that during earlier times China attacked in October and occupied land, because soon winter set in and the Indian side was unable to counter as every thing was frozen solid. However, due to the improvements in the roads and infrastructure the situation has changed completely.
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby g.sarkar » 02 Sep 2020 02:43

https://www.usnews.com/news/world-repor ... s-believes
China Provoked India in Latest Clash, U.S. Believes
The incident near the Pangong Tso Lake this week has deeply puzzled U.S. intelligence officials and analysts, who don’t understand why Beijing would ‘shoot itself in the foot.’
By Paul D. Shinkman, Senior Writer, National Security Sept. 1, 2020

THE U.S. BELIEVES CHINA deliberately provoked India with a new incursion into contested territory earlier this week and that Beijing remains enraged that its local commander withdrew forces when a physical conflict appeared imminent, according to an American intelligence assessment.
The new details shared with U.S. News follow reports of a skirmish in recent days along the two nuclear powers' shared border, months after a deadly melee erupted in another contested region some 100 miles away. Both India and China blame the other for initiating the latest clash.
The U.S. believes Indian forces have prevented any loss of ground, according to a source familiar with the assessment who spoke on the condition of anonymity, following the latest faceoff, which Indian and Chinese officials revealed early Monday took place at the southern end of the Pangong Tso Lake. That remote region high in the Himalayas is considered to be within India's territorial control.
The Indian troops were better prepared to respond to the Chinese provocation, the U.S. believes, after bolstering their presence in northern India following the deadly June clash in the Galwan River Valley region that resulted in at least 20 Indian deaths and as many as 35 Chinese casualties. The assessment does not conclude that Chinese forces were the first to act provocatively in this case, but the U.S. has chosen to support India's side because of Beijing's past provocative behavior.
American intelligence officials and local analysts remain puzzled about the timing of the latest clash, which comes as China seeks to cool tensions – or has given the appearance it wishes to do so – and improve ties with India amid fears the latest violence has pushed New Delhi into closer cooperation with the U.S.
Indeed, Indian officials will meet virtually with their counterparts from the U.S., Japan and Australia – a group known as "The Quad" – later this month for a summit that Indian sources say will likely result in a new intelligence-sharing arrangement among the major powers. The result of the 2+2 Ministerial Dialogue and its Basic Exchange and Cooperation Agreement will not only equip the Indian armed forces with the vital intelligence it needs to better understand Chinese military positions and movements, but it will serve as an important step in formalizing a partnership with New Delhi that Washington would like to see grow even stronger at China's expense.
"We are staggered at the timing of the Chinese actions," according to the intelligence assessment, "but shouldn't complain either if Beijing shoots itself in the foot."
......
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ManuJ » 02 Sep 2020 03:05

There is a Chinese base and an airstrip across the Spanggur Gap, inside what Google shows as Indian territory, right next to Chushul. This is connected to the main Chinese base at Spanggur Tso via a blacktop road.

It's hard to understand why India would allow it to be built in the first place, but now it should undo the intrusion and take control of the base and the airstrip.

Coordinates: 33°33'26.66"N, 78°43'53.54"E

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anujan » 02 Sep 2020 03:05

Thinking ahead to a long term solution, the situation is quite tricky.

China seems to be of the opinion that their claim line is in fact international border and there is no contesting that. Forget for the moment the fact that they have never officially exchanged maps to indicate where their claim line is, and they invent things like "Supreme Emperor Chongching of Middle kingdom took his donkey for a biss in this nullah so the entire valley belongs to us". Their position in South China sea/LAC seems to be, forget what everyone's claim line is, we will behave as though our claim line is what the truth is. Hence the 1000 statements whenever their claim line is breached.

SDREs on the other hand, have "our perception" (much more to the east), "their perception" (much more to the west) and actual ground position (somewhere in the middle). Whenever they move beyond our ground position and intrude till their perception, we used to wave it off as "well, perceptions differ". And react or not react based on political weather, actual weather, strategic importance etc etc. Cheen on the other hand are "not one inch beyond our claim line".

As an aside: There is hair splitting over whether black top is on our sides or theirs. If you look at our perception, the LAC goes through finger 8 and cuts through the middle of Spanggur Tso! Which is beyond their camps on the banks of Spanggur Tso. Which means that unless we have invaded the east bank of Spanggur Tso, we are well within our perception.


Coming back to the original point. I am not sure this whole tamasha is because India intruded, I think it is far more strategic and sinister. I think China has decided that a permanently unstable JK/Ladakh is core to their security in Tibet/CPEC. Any moves to stabilize JK/Ladakh by altering statehood or building infra elicits a counter-reaction from them. If you look at their statements, first they objected to 370 abolition in JK (which is totally an internal issue, Jaishankar so far as went to cheen to tell them it has no bearing on status quo of the dispute with China). They are uneasy about DBSO road (totally on our side).

I have no idea how this is going to get resolved, or even what the end game plan of China is. Either all out war with decisive defeat of one side, or decades of cat and mouse with one side gaining upper hand on the other and sitting on posts and features. Both of which are unpalatable.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Kakarat » 02 Sep 2020 03:07

https://twitter.com/MajorsSquad/status/ ... 3402298368
@Manik_M_Jolly and @hukum2082 get together for @MajorsSquad's inaugural podcast.A quick review of @adgpi's recent action in Chushul.

Do let us know your feedback , suggestions and topics that we could cover for you every week.Jai Hind!
#squadcast


https://soundcloud.com/majors-squad-791 ... uad-cast-2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 02 Sep 2020 03:12

I was happy to see in the Stratforce clip the acknowledgement from ex- IAF AMs of the need for a strat. bonber, which again I've been talking about for over a decade,neglected by hhe service for decades.It is only when we were rudely woken up by the dragon that we blink at the number of their strat. bombers,no doubt Cold War vintage,but 120 in number. As ex-CNO of the USN Adm.Greenert famously said," why buy a sports car when a bomb truck is enough?" Armed with hundreds of cruise missiles/ PGMs,these venerable aircraft could take out critical points in our own border infra,as well as making stand-off attacks againt our air bases, out of range of our air defences.

This deficiency must be rectified by the IAF asap. Immediate types come to mind such as the SU-34,a tactical bomber ,and the TU22M3 Backfire,which the IN must acquire to be able to swiftly sanitise any part of the IOR from southern India. Ideally,we should develop a stealth bomber,a decade+ of development req. here,that's for the long term however. Our MKIs do have great capability armed with BMos,but are being multi-tasked when our numbers are low.They should primarily dominate the battlespace and enemy airspace achieving as we did in '71 ,max air superiority
within the shortest time. The 4 principal PLAAF air bases have to be put out of action in the first flush of war.This will also apart from crippling their air capability to influence the land battle, prevent rapid reinforcements being flown in from the PRC's theatre command and rear logistic hubs.

It would be great if the DM on his visit to Russia requested immediate lease of combat aircraft of types?(we're operating,until new birds fly in .Similarly,France too should be sounded out for extra Rafales on lease until new ones kick in.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 02 Sep 2020 03:26

ManuJ wrote:There is a Chinese base and an airstrip across the Spanggur Gap, inside what Google shows as Indian territory, right next to Chushul. This is connected to the main Chinese base at Spanggur Tso via a blacktop road.

It's hard to understand why India would allow it to be built in the first place, but now it should undo the intrusion and take control of the base and the airstrip.

Coordinates: 33°33'26.66"N, 78°43'53.54"E


This is the Indian airstrip in Chushul. You can tell by its location relative to Chushul town and the Ahirdam Memorial. Where are you seeing the connection to a Chinese base?

Edit: I think the buildings you are seeing in Google Earth at that location is the Border Meeting Point for the IA and PLA.
Last edited by Anoop on 02 Sep 2020 06:48, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suraj » 02 Sep 2020 03:55

k prasad wrote:I'm not so sure about explicitly raising the Tibet question Just yet. In geopolitics, real leverage comes from (to quote the Tarkin Doctrine from Star Wars) the fear of use of force, rather than the use of force itself. Once you draw a line in the sand on any of these issues, you are stuck to that position and cannot withdraw gracefully (like our initial One China agreement). Your only option is to then cross that line or be branded weak for not crossing it.

I agree with that, and did't imply that. This wasn't from a government source. It is just that the Tibetans are now bold enough to state this openly, and the Indian mainstream press gives them space in a visible manner to state this. That is a move similar to the revelation that the SFF were in operation. For the longest time, these kinds of messaging would be avoided due to CKK (Cheen Kya Kahenge) complex.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby V_Raman » 02 Sep 2020 04:36

Anujan wrote:Thinking ahead to a long term solution, the situation is quite tricky.


Coming back to the original point. I am not sure this whole tamasha is because India intruded, I think it is far more strategic and sinister. I think China has decided that a permanently unstable JK/Ladakh is core to their security in Tibet/CPEC. Any moves to stabilize JK/Ladakh by altering statehood or building infra elicits a counter-reaction from them. If you look at their statements, first they objected to 370 abolition in JK (which is totally an internal issue, Jaishankar so far as went to cheen to tell them it has no bearing on status quo of the dispute with China). They are uneasy about DBSO road (totally on our side).


One way to break this will be to take over GB. have the Chinese pre-empted that option?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rampy » 02 Sep 2020 04:58

In Hindi but some new info and maps, i did not see yet.

https://youtu.be/AeuMfteyinQ

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suraj » 02 Sep 2020 05:27

k prasad wrote:In dealing with the PLA in the current situation, our strategy should be like the python.... A python doesn't actually squeeze its prey to death in the way that people think. It just holds on tight, and applies a firm squeeze. Then, every time the prey in its clutches exhales, it tightens just a little more and holds on, until the poor animal can no longer inhale. It's excruciating and takes an hour or more, but by the end, the prey is dead.

We need to do the same... Every time the PLA attempts to ingress onto our territory, we squeeze them, and capture territory of our own, either there, or elsewhere, and most importantly... Stay there. That will immediately impose pain and punitive action on any attempts by the PLA to transgress. So far, their perception is that they can act with impunity and control the location and timing of confrontation. We need to impose a military cost on them for every attempt they make, and make that cost permanent, unless they're willing to give up their gains. Else, we will have to make do with "go back 2 km from xyz point" type agreements".

In complete agreement here. I don't quite understand the meaning of the term 'status quo' in this conversation across the past few pages, at all. What status quo exactly ? The only constant is that the Chinese agree to nothing, respect nothing, and always opportunistically take anything that can be used for negotiations anytime. In fact that behavior is a consequence of the other side desiring and openly seeking status quo. They constantly grab something then agree to sit and discuss the potential to keep the present the status quo, then go about breaking that 'word' anytime.

It's not that they 'lack honor' or some such thing. Maybe they do, maybe they don't. However, these are fundamentally mental constructs to express one's own view of them.

There are references to how the Chinese make up LAC to be whatever they think it is at any given time. Same for South China Sea. But there's one border where they do have a general status quo - the Russian one. That follows from the Soviet and Russian standard response to the Chinese policy that they can implement freely on the LAC - "you try salami slice or intrusion, we bash your skulls in, da ?"

Chinese behavior has been enabled by Indian behavior. We valued 'status quo'. They can simply grab something then assure they''ll agree to nothing further, then repeat. Why ? Because "what are you Indians going to do about it ?" And for a long time they were right - what did we do about it ? It's not a case of questioning the jawans' valour, but that there wasn't a political emphasis on redoing policy to suit the enemy. Valuing "status quo" here is a guarantee that there's going to be none.

The Chinese actions will become more defensive and less provocative when they fear reprisals they cannot plan to mitigate effectively. Not just actions like the current one, but more. Repeated and consistent willingness on the Indian part to use disproportionate but controlled force repeatedly without easily predictable basis serves as deterrent. Regularly we just grab anything opportunistically. Hold it, assert that it matches our perception of LAC, rinse repeat. Their camps need to have regular stories of "those turban clad ones, they're monsters. They just went crazy in sector X last week. And the SDREs with khukris - those are worse. And they have Tibetans on a commando force. Who knows what the kids in Lhasa are thinking now ?"

To be fair, GoI is doing some very smart messaging. They're progressively destroying the Chinese trade surplus. They mention the SFF. Then let Tibetans talk about reconquista openly. And they embarrass the enemy by referring to capturing prawn magazines. What's more, in these instances, the near total absence of free information flow within China works against them - they come to Indian sites for information. They don't have to believe everything, they'll get swayed anyway. Already happened once with the internal discord there over lack of respect for those who fell in battle at Galwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ManuJ » 02 Sep 2020 06:38

Anoop wrote:
ManuJ wrote:There is a Chinese base and an airstrip across the Spanggur Gap, inside what Google shows as Indian territory, right next to Chushul. This is connected to the main Chinese base at Spanggur Tso via a blacktop road.

It's hard to understand why India would allow it to be built in the first place, but now it should undo the intrusion and take control of the base and the airstrip.

Coordinates: 33°33'26.66"N, 78°43'53.54"E


This is the Indian airstrip in Chushul. You can tell by its location relative to Chushul town and the Ahirdam Memorial. Where are you seeing the connection to a Chinese base?

The memorial is to the south-east of the base. Can't say for sure about the airstrip, but the base certainly seems to be Chinese from the style of construction and from the fact that it's connected via a road to the bigger Chinese base on the shore of Spanggur Tso.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Davidrock » 02 Sep 2020 06:43

Nithin and Shiv are the two most reliable defence reporters.
One of them says Black top not with IA, other says the opposite.

Would be nice if we can have a confirmation. But I will tend to believe Shiv, as he was the only person who reported that some IA troops were captured after Galwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 02 Sep 2020 06:52

ManuJ wrote:The memorial is to the south-east of the base. Can't say for sure about the airstrip, but the base certainly seems to be Chinese from the style of construction and from the fact that it's connected via a road to the bigger Chinese base on the shore of Spanggur Tso.


I edited my post above. Those buildings at that location is most probably the Border Meeting Point for the IA and PLA. The airstrip is the same Indian ALG that was used to fly in the tanks during the 1962 war, but is inactive now.


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