India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 02 Sep 2020 19:02

RKumar wrote:Chinese defense minister meets Vietnamese ambassador

Seems like China wants to limit Indian influence in Vietnam. Is the stage being set?

Do the chinese have a defective gene for common sense?

How can you claim the entire south china sea, stop vietnamese from oil exploration in their waters, empty their fish with your trawlers, harass their trawlers and then ask them to not be friends with India?

Frankly most things that the chinese govt does seem to have no basis in common sense.

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Sep 2020 19:06

ks_sachin wrote: Hmmmm.

So you are saying that we got on to the ridgeline and then went down near their part of the ridgeline and somehow dislodged them from there without firing a shot?

Or we went unobserved along the ridgeline and then captured the post which presumably was at a point which gave good observation around a 360 degree arc

No idea how we went or what position we are in. Just saying that the F4 has enough space for us to reach the height. The Chini cannot deploy all along the ridge line, due to the length.

Given that nobody is firing, both side could move in to lot of places..

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Sep 2020 19:06

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 7700475904

Indian Army sources: “As part of the precautionary deployment carried out on 30 August 2020, some readjustments of our positions on North Bank of Pangong Tso Lake on our side of LAC had also been carried out.” (Love the use of word ‘readjustments’ )

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Sep 2020 19:16

nam wrote:https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg2NbE1XsAE ... name=large

US DOD Chini Missile count. The CM must be much more.

These rockets will not change the course of a war against us, but will cause some assured damage. Wish we had concentrated some on our side as well.

That is an older estimate, in the latest one they have upped the estimate of SR/MRBM and GLCMs by up to 2-3x. Link

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Sep 2020 19:27

RKumar wrote:Chinese defense minister meets Vietnamese ambassador
Seems like China wants to limit Indian influence in Vietnam. Is the stage being set?

China is on a charm offensive and FM Wang Yi has been visiting Europe and SE Asian countries. There was a meeting 10 days back with the Vietnamese Dy. Prime Minister. Vietnam is wooing countries like Vietnam, Malaysia and Indonesia with whom it has significant maritime boundary disputes and which are slowly inching towards a common action against China in the UNCLOS on the Indo-China Sea issue. PRC also does not want them to tilt towards the USA/QUAD.

Let's not discuss this more here. May not be relevant here.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Sep 2020 19:34

nam wrote:
ks_sachin wrote: Hmmmm.

So you are saying that we got on to the ridgeline and then went down near their part of the ridgeline and somehow dislodged them from there without firing a shot?

Or we went unobserved along the ridgeline and then captured the post which presumably was at a point which gave good observation around a 360 degree arc
No idea how we went or what position we are in. Just saying that the F4 has enough space for us to reach the height. The Chini cannot deploy all along the ridge line, due to the length.

Given that nobody is firing, both side could move in to lot of places..

It makes little sense for us to claim heights and then be below the Chinese on the ridge line. And even less sense for the Chinese to occupy a position that does not truly dominate and even if they have to tactically take that position not ensure that the dominant feature is dominated by other means (which could perhaps explain how we now dominate Finger 4 - if we do).

Basics of mountain warfare!

Sorry mate just that with twitter and Indian journos I am a born skeptic.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Sep 2020 19:43

hanumadu wrote:
RKumar wrote:Chinese defense minister meets Vietnamese ambassador

Seems like China wants to limit Indian influence in Vietnam. Is the stage being set?
Do the chinese have a defective gene for common sense?

How can you claim the entire south china sea, stop vietnamese from oil exploration in their waters, empty their fish with your trawlers, harass their trawlers and then ask them to not be friends with India?

Frankly most things that the chinese govt does seem to have no basis in common sense.

They are a bit like Sheldon Cooper!!

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Sep 2020 19:51

nam wrote:
No idea how we went or what position we are in. Just saying that the F4 has enough space for us to reach the height. The Chini cannot deploy all along the ridge line, due to the length.

Given that nobody is firing, both side could move in to lot of places..

Please watch how the PLA has been deployed on the ridge on google earth which has images from 6/2020, they have been deployed up to 5km along the ridge

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 02 Sep 2020 20:18

Gurus/Seniors,
We may for now not even need to ask for meeting and keep on strengthening the newly acquired positions with better infra. And in the next summer readjust some more heights further.

Dominating heights is very important in mountains. We had actually achieved it for now.
Why should we negotiate now? We can simply reinforce the finger area to prevent further incursion by PLA.

SidSoma · Post by **SidSoma** » 02 Sep 2020 20:27

RajaRudra wrote:Gurus/Seniors,
We may for now not even need to ask for meeting and keep on strengthening the newly acquired positions with better infra. And in the next summer readjust some more heights further.

Dominating heights is very important in mountains. We had actually achieved it for now.
Why should we negotiate now? We can simply reinforce the finger area to prevent further incursion by PLA.

This whole issue started when the area common to both India's claim line and China's claim line was occupied by the Mighty Han. We need to bargain with the Mighty Han to go back to the status as of 31st March so that we can occupy that side of the land as well as it is our perception of the border. After that there is no need to negotiate, only slice Salami and kick Porkis.

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 02 Sep 2020 20:39

RajaRudra wrote:Gurus/Seniors,
We may for now not even need to ask for meeting and keep on strengthening the newly acquired positions with better infra. And in the next summer readjust some more heights further.

Dominating heights is very important in mountains. We had actually achieved it for now.
Why should we negotiate now? We can simply reinforce the finger area to prevent further incursion by PLA.

SIrji the immediate task is to ensure that the men are comfortable at these heights in the winter. Dominating heights is important but more important is the ability to ensure that domination continues. That means logistics - clothing / proper shelter / food / ammo......and proper re-supply lines.

I have been to the Tibetan plateau to about 14K ft and even on a clear sunny day it is brutal.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 02 Sep 2020 20:41

RajaRudra wrote:Gurus/Seniors,
We may for now not even need to ask for meeting and keep on strengthening the newly acquired positions with better infra. And in the next summer readjust some more heights further.

Dominating heights is very important in mountains. We had actually achieved it for now.
Why should we negotiate now? We can simply reinforce the finger area to prevent further incursion by PLA.

BTW meetings on the ground have been going on for the last couple of days and one is scheduled for tomorrow.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Sep 2020 20:41

hanumadu wrote:
RKumar wrote:Chinese defense minister meets Vietnamese ambassador

Seems like China wants to limit Indian influence in Vietnam. Is the stage being set?
Do the chinese have a defective gene for common sense?

How can you claim the entire south china sea, stop vietnamese from oil exploration in their waters, empty their fish with your trawlers, harass their trawlers and then ask them to not be friends with India?

Frankly most things that the chinese govt does seem to have no basis in common sense.

I don't see anything strange, when you see the world from their perspective:
"China is the sole power of Asia. There are no equal relationships. All other nations are tributaries, who benefit from Chinese noblesse oblige. What China considers important to itself is all that matters. Vietnam must feel grateful for how much they have developed due to their economic engagement with China. Why does Vietnam want to be ungrateful ?"

See it this way and there's nothing wrong with what they're doing. A trip to Vietnam means calling in a favor 'they have granted Vietnam'. It is important not to make sense of China solely from the view of our own value system. Start by looking at the world their way, then work back how it disadvantages them. Our own value systems are not really important to this.

rsingh · Post by **rsingh** » 02 Sep 2020 20:54

Vietnam must feel grateful for how much they have developed due to their economic engagement with China

How is that? Pray explain SVP

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Sep 2020 20:56

I have been binge watching vlogs of gora guys, who have been in Chinese for long to understand the Chini way of life.

I totally recommend it. You will understand Chinese action. You have an awkward mix of communist "capitalistic victim" ideology, now supported by 14T superiority complex!

Fundamentally everyone is conspiring against us to take our land, because we are superior!

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 02 Sep 2020 21:03

rsingh wrote:
Vietnam must feel grateful for how much they have developed due to their economic engagement with China
How is that? Pray explain SVP

Vietnamese economy has grown significantly from their manufacturing base expanding as Chinese companies offshore or expand their facilities there. From China's perspective, all that is Chinese generosity for which China calls in favors when it suits them.

Remember the above statement you quote is an expression of Chinese worldview and thinking, not my own.

RajaRudra · Post by **RajaRudra** » 02 Sep 2020 21:13

Thanks Gurus for responding.
I understand the cons are

1) Maintaining men and material in those heights during winter.
2) Planning for medical evacuation if needed from that extreme heights.
3) Keep the men with fighting spirit

Pros are

1) Full situational awareness of the entire area round the clock
2) In any few future war, heights will help us in precise artillery fire.
3) Any move by PLA to further incursion in finger area and other near by areas can be spotted and acted upon fast
4) Physically dominating this heights will prevent china from occupying the same heights and handicapping us.
5) Physical possession always gives an opportunity to do further re adjust if China does this same nautanki in some other sector.
6) With Siachin experience we can overcome the winter challenge.
7) In any upcoming POK campaign this heights will help us keep an eye on this sector with less resources and to prevent china disturbing the lake sector and fish in the troubled water(we lost finger 4 to 8 during the kargil campaign)

There should be punishment for the thing china tried and i feel we occupying the certain heights which are even out side our perception is the only thing that can be negotiated.

In this case, all the 5 heights seems to be in our perceived line and negotiating against this 5 heights will be a lose to us either way.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 02 Sep 2020 21:31

https://twitter.com/adityarajkaul/statu ... 00064?s=21

Looks like the Chinese PLA have yet again started playing music bang on the LAC in Eastern Ladakh. In 1962 they played Man Dole Mera Tan Dole and Tumsa Nahi Dekha on loudspeakers to befriend or divert attention. Wonder what songs are being played now. Teri Gali mein aata nahi?

This is what I call upping the ante. I ain’t joking. And it’s really happening

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 02 Sep 2020 21:33

https://twitter.com/brigmps/status/1301 ... 20962?s=21

Pangong Tso Update -Subsequent to successful interception of Chinese intrusion on night 29/30 Aug , Own Troops successfully occupied two Strategically important features in Spanggur gap in wee hours of 30 Aug .
Own-one JCO martyred, Enemy - two PLA Soldiers killed & 45 captured.

williams · Post by **williams** » 02 Sep 2020 21:37

Indian and Chinese positions as of today in South Pangong area. - from OSINT

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 02 Sep 2020 21:45

I agree with Yensoy.The bully will tickle and tease until he is slapped the face and thrashed in public,like the Viets did many decades ago. One must give great credit to them for seeing off the French,mighty US and the Commie Chinese. It is only now after their mammoth naval expansion where the Viet navy is vastly outnumbered,that they have resumed sabre rattling against the Viets. For decades they kept their sphincter tightly closed!

With India under Modi,they tried the old Nehruvian deception dodge.All Hindi- Chinni bhai-bhai in India and at Wuhan. Chin tentacles on the Indian economy grew like cancer by stealth. Then when in trouble on the home front,global condemnation for spreading the Wuhan Virus, and faced with a growing pressure against its maritime island grabbing by the US, fuhrer XI made the cardinal mistake of waging war against India, like Hitler attacking Russia. XI has completely misread Modi. That's what megalomania brings with it, bad judgement. He tried a " Musha-rat", Kargil style, possibly egged on by his Paki catamites in uniform, who hoped for another Himalayan lesson to take place '62 message brought upto date,but forgot that India did lear the bitter lesson well and was quite capable of dishing it out to the PRC aggressor in similar fashion,not just on the battlefield but also on the economic front.

The second attempt at backstabbing rven as talks were on between the two military heads, indicates the stark reality that the PRC are the slimeballs of the planet, devoid of any civilised form of behaviour,without honour,the cesspit of the human race. The olc phrase, "trusted like the fox" should now instead read," trusted like a Chink." I hope that apart from using "cspital punishment" against the PLA, thd GOI hugely increases eco. and dpl. sanctions against the PRC and accelerate efforts in recognising diplomatically both Taiwan and the Tibetan govt.-in-exile . We must work for the liberation of Tibet and Baluchistan with fervent zeal.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 02 Sep 2020 22:00

Tweet by Global Times Editor

Varoon Shekhar · Post by **Varoon Shekhar** » 02 Sep 2020 22:09

https://www.indiatoday.in/programme/5iv ... 2020-09-02

at 19:13, report of India now holding the North ridgeline of Finger 4

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Sep 2020 22:16

The LAC is now open to interpretation. Both side can claim, the other is on their side!.

If the balloon goes up, we need to decimate the local PLA units.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 02 Sep 2020 22:42

bhailog..garma garam news from my good frnd Tsering who is a rifleman in L scouts..'saar order hi ki agar haalat kharab ho raha hai ho to fire khol do ".. he is convinced that there was goola baari in the recent skirmish...

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Sep 2020 22:58

Pretty sure it was. The Chinis would not have let us move in without a shot. It must have been by the local troops guarding the position. Officers of both side must have asked each to refrain from artillery.

If there was to be artillery, the Chinis will go first. We need to throw the kitchen sink.

Leonard · Post by **Leonard** » 02 Sep 2020 22:59

Yes -- There was "gola-barri" .. See this link

2 PLA girlie boytoys were KIA
45 Captured

One of our own JCO was martyred

https://twitter.com/BrigMps/status/1301181207137320962

>>
Pangong Tso Update -Subsequent to successful interception of Chinese intrusion on night 29/30 Aug , Own Troops successfully occupied two Strategically important features in Spanggur gap in wee hours of 30 Aug .
Own-one JCO martyred, Enemy - two PLA Soldiers killed & 45 captured.

<<

Also for ALL the NAYSAYER's / doubter's ..

>>
Pangong Tso Update- 44 min
Two strategically important features captured are BLACK TOP & HELMET which provide depth to CHUSHUL Garrison & dominates Chinese defences & Camps.
These features are being reinforced.
Razang La is next stop.
<<

putnanja · Post by **putnanja** » 02 Sep 2020 23:00

manjgu wrote:bhailog..garma garam news from my good frnd Tsering who is a rifleman in L scouts..'saar order hi ki agar haalat kharab ho raha hai ho to fire khol do ".. he is convinced that there was goola baari in the recent skirmish...

Gloves are coming off. China now has to realize that any further provocation will mean more bodies will fall. According to Twitter chatter, two PLA soldiers were killed and 45 captured. Though IA has denied that, multiple sources reporting it. Will they try attacking and escalating the conflict?

Their bluff has been called this time. They thought they can intimidate India just bcos their economy is bigger. Their passive-aggressive moves like colliding with fishingboats, patrolling aggressively in S China sea might initimidate SE Asian countries. They tried to do that by using barbed clubs to attack Col Santosh Babu. Whether intent was to just injure or kill is not sure. But the beating they got from that, they will remember for a long time. Now, 2nd time they are having deaths in their ranks. For an army not used to taking casualties, that's twice that IA gave them a bloody nose.

What will they do next? Will they still try to fight and save "honour"? Will they try stand-off weapons like artillery etc? That will escalate the conflict and India will chose to counterattack at time and place of its choosing. Are they prepared for it? Or will they try to push their proxies - the pakis to fight their war for them? They are in a catch-22 situation. Fight and escalate with all the implication it carriers, or leave grudgingly and plan something else later? India won't accept anything less than return to April status-quo.

Who are these "strategic thinkers" who advice PLA/Xi of these things ? What was the end-goal? There doesn't appear to be any end goal for their exercise which just result in their a$$-whopping. Don't know if pakis get their strategic thinking from the chinese or vice versa.

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 02 Sep 2020 23:01

williams wrote:

Indian and Chinese positions as of today in South Pangong area. - from OSINT

Unless I'm not reading the terrain right, the 2 Indian positions at Chishul seem to be Rezang La, very much on our side of the LAC, which we always controlled. Perhaps we are actively occupying those heights for the first time.

Or OSINT is wrong and our positions are much closer, overlooking on them from the heights to the south, on the mountain tops right below the red dots marking Chinese positions.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 02 Sep 2020 23:04

Hopefully, chinese will order pakis to march forward to be slaughtered before November.

Deans · Post by **Deans** » 02 Sep 2020 23:09

Kakarat wrote:
nam wrote:
No idea how we went or what position we are in. Just saying that the F4 has enough space for us to reach the height. The Chini cannot deploy all along the ridge line, due to the length.

Given that nobody is firing, both side could move in to lot of places..
Please watch how the PLA has been deployed on the ridge on google earth which has images from 6/2020, they have been deployed up to 5km along the ridge

I was surprised to see from google earth, how heavily the Chinese have built up their positions on finger 4. It is a very high concentration of
troops for a relatively unimportant part of the LAC in Ladakh - possibly leaving them exposed elsewhere. Finger 4 ridge is the key to the whole
`finger' part of the lake. If we control the finger 4 ridge, (which would be a huge achievement considering the strength of the Chinese), the main Chinese position between finger 4 & 5 becomes badly exposed- both from the control of the finger 4 height (at a higher altitude than finger 5) and from our control of the heights on the southern bank.

vijayk · Post by **vijayk** » 02 Sep 2020 23:17

#Breaking | LAC standoff: India captures Pangong North Finger 4.

https://t.co/xOXt4TMQao

Kakarat · Post by **Kakarat** » 02 Sep 2020 23:19

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 9676232704

Official sources

Cyrano · Post by **Cyrano** » 02 Sep 2020 23:20

Despite all the news about Indian mobilisation since months, whatever OSINT images we see floating around marking our positions against Chinese positions, Indian positions seem much fewer in number. The buildup of Indian tents, camps, temp infra, vehicles etc also seem far fewer than Chinese. This was especially notable in Galwan & Finger region of Pangang Tso.

Is this because Chinese positions are on lower, flatter ground, and Indian positions in higher, rugged terrain? We are not over mobilising just to show off? We believe too much in 1 defender for 10 aggressors theory? We can't mobilise more due to lack of resources? Old habits - IA asserts ownership by patrolling and PLA by building camps?

Perhaps its none of these, but I get 2 nagging worries:
1. If PLA indeed deploys strong troops that are ready to fight to death at some point, IA, lulled by easy victories will get badly surprised
2. If we are to dig in for winter, we seem to be woefully underprepared compared to PLA, even accounting for their creature comforts.

Perhaps I'm wrong, the OSINT is wrong, I hope both are wrong.

But I can't shake this feeling that we might be getting lured into complacency by PLA even if it costs them lives and some terrain at the moment.

We need to be very vigilant while being defensive or offensive. This is just foreplay starting.

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 02 Sep 2020 23:29

putnanja wrote:
Who are these "strategic thinkers" who advice PLA/Xi of these things ? What was the end-goal? There doesn't appear to be any end goal for their exercise which just result in their a$$-whopping. Don't know if pakis get their strategic thinking from the chinese or vice versa.

' Clean up this mess': The Chinese thinkers behind Xi Jinping’s hardening line

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Sep 2020 23:30

Deans wrote:
I was surprised to see from google earth, how heavily the Chinese have built up their positions on finger 4. It is a very high concentration of
troops for a relatively unimportant part of the LAC in Ladakh - possibly leaving them exposed elsewhere. Finger 4 ridge is the key to the whole
`finger' part of the lake. If we control the finger 4 ridge, (which would be a huge achievement considering the strength of the Chinese), the main Chinese position between finger 4 & 5 becomes badly exposed- both from the control of the finger 4 height (at a higher altitude than finger 5) and from our control of the heights on the southern bank.

The heavy deployment was to prevent us from moving in to F8 by coming down from the top. If you notice in the maps, there are absolutely flat valleys coming in from the North with Chini roads. I don't know about the width, but it looks wide enough to move wheeled/armor units..

If they were not deployed there, we could have flanked them and landed on F8 ridges..

The Chinis had realized their folly, after ITBP start patrolling by crossing the F4 ridge on the North, instead of 1 man lane near the lake..

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 02 Sep 2020 23:31

amar_p wrote:Despite all the news about Indian mobilisation since months, whatever OSINT images we see floating around marking our positions against Chinese positions, Indian positions seem much fewer in number. The buildup of Indian tents, camps, temp infra, vehicles etc also seem far fewer than Chinese. This was especially notable in Galwan & Finger region of Pangang Tso.

Is this because Chinese positions are on lower, flatter ground, and Indian positions in higher, rugged terrain? We are not over mobilising just to show off? We believe too much in 1 defender for 10 aggressors theory? We can't mobilise more due to lack of resources? Old habits - IA asserts ownership by patrolling and PLA by building camps?

Perhaps its none of these, but I get 2 nagging worries:
1. If PLA indeed deploys strong troops that are ready to fight to death at some point, IA, lulled by easy victories will get badly surprised
2. If we are to dig in for winter, we seem to be woefully underprepared compared to PLA, even accounting for their creature comforts.

Perhaps I'm wrong, the OSINT is wrong, I hope both are wrong.

But I can't shake this feeling that we might be getting lured into complacency by PLA even if it costs them lives and some terrain at the moment.

We need to be very vigilant while being defensive or offensive. This is just foreplay starting.

OSINT's never focused on Indian position plus there are other reasons ...

If the IA says we have matching deployment we have matching deployment.

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 02 Sep 2020 23:35

Winnie the Poo did PhD on some commie philosophy and considers itself the new philosopher+visionary+emperor. Given its megalomania, it's likely to have surrounded itself with handpicked chamchas who have drunk that cool-aid.

When is Trump going to heat up things in SCS after the brazen missile test by Cheen? He needs to do something before November.

nam · Post by **nam** » 02 Sep 2020 23:36

The Chinis want us to feel defeated. They want us to feel they are superior. But don't want to push us in to the US camp.

They can use force, but that will too become open.A conflict, would cause a domino effect, with other nations immediately elevating China as a threat.

The Chinis hate that our media is driving the narrative.

I wonder what the Chinis are thinking about how to achieve this.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 02 Sep 2020 23:40

manjgu wrote:bhailog..garma garam news from my good frnd Tsering who is a rifleman in L scouts..'saar order hi ki agar haalat kharab ho raha hai ho to fire khol do ".. he is convinced that there was goola baari in the recent skirmish...

This was said by shatrujeet 2days ago
https://twitter.com/shatrujeet009/statu ... 39173?s=21

ALL ARMS FIRING BREAK OUT AT LAC

AT 1500 HRS ^