India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 21 Jul 2020 12:27

On a side note, i wonder if we have an alternative access road to Depsang and DBO northward from the Shyok bridge along the Saser La - Murgo road, along the Shyok river (i don't know the name of the valley), skirting the western and northern sides of Shahi Kangri?

We seem to have some jeep track a part of the way as well as a road from DBO all the way west to the base of the Rimo glacier, but I don't see a connection, or a metalled road. It might be a useful alternative to DSDBO, so we can supply DBO without worrying about the DSDBO road being cut off.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2020 13:11

^^
There are tracks along the Shyok valley between Gapshan and Saser Brangsa.

While this path can be used in a emergency, it is highly unreliable. Just above Saser Brangsa 3 glaciers (Aq Tash, Kichik Kumdan & Chong Kumdan) are perched right the edge of the Shyok valley. I have read accounts when the glaciers have slipped right into the Shyok valley, hitting the opposite bank and blocking the valley floor completely.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 21 Jul 2020 13:20

https://twitter.com/Vedmalik1/status/12 ... 4955790338

Ved Malik @Vedmalik1

10 Dec 2010 article. For those who missed its last para.

https://twitter.com/Vedmalik1/status/12 ... 9844079617

10 years after writing of this article, PLA activities have now made it obvious that China aims to deny Indian access to DBO, Depsang Plains & Karakoram Pass. This area needs greater surveillance, security with more freedom of action than permitted by China Study Gp currently.

Indian foothold on DBO/Depsang plain keeps alive, from the Chinese POV, the threat to G219. The completion of the DSDBO road lends an urgency to the Chinese effort to get a grip on the situation at the earliest.

Road across Sase La needs to be expedited

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 21 Jul 2020 15:14

pankajs wrote:^^
There are tracks along the Shyok valley between Gapshan and Saser Brangsa.

While this path can be used in a emergency, it is highly unreliable. Just above Saser Brangsa 3 glaciers (Aq Tash, Kichik Kumdan & Chong Kumdan) are perched right the edge of the Shyok valley. I have read accounts when the glaciers have slipped right into the Shyok valley, hitting the opposite bank and blocking the valley floor completely.

Thank you so much! I was looking for the names of the glaciers and the valley.

I'm not surprised by glaciers slipping... that is an incredibly narrow and steep valley, and those are fairly large glaciers. I guess the only way to get an all-weather alternative route to the DSDBO road via the Nubra valley would be to have a tunnel under the Saser Pass (would be >15 km long), and an all-weather road on the East bank of the Shyok, high enough that it is not too susceptible to road collapse from icefall. Right now, the track shifts to the west bank, directly under the glacier.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 21 Jul 2020 15:58

k prasad wrote:
manjgu wrote: ...

That said, i don't know if we should be complacent, which surely the Indian Army isn't. The Pakistani Army wouldn't have expected our forces to capture Bana Top from them. But we did. They would not have expected our forces to trek through 100s of kilometers of snow, ice and glaciers, walking through Zoji La and Saser La all the way to Rimo and Siachen to control Siachen in 1984, when their own approach was far easier and shorter. But we did.

We cannot underestimate a determined opposition, especially on the Siachen complex. If we lose the heights, it'll be nearly impossible to regain them.

My concern is simple - it looks like it'd be a much easier approach to the Teram Shehr and Siachen glacier complex from the Shaksgam side, much like the approach to Siachen from the PoK side is easier. Which makes our continued patrolling and deployment along the Shaksgam ridgeline all the more important. Plus, the Chinese control of Shaksgam valley makes a coordinated two pronged attack by Pak and PLA a possibility - PakArmy from Siachen and PLA on the Rimo and Teram Shehr glaciers.

From the DBO and Depsang plains side, the Chinese won't be a direct threat to Siachen... that would involve a 20+ km incursion across Depsang to the headwaters of the Shyok, another 60 km trek across the Rimo and Teram Shehr glaciers just to get to Siachen. But, they could conceivably pose a threat to our positions on the middle Rimo glacier, and an alternate route down the Shyok through Panamik. Either way, it's easier to hold the position than to try to regain it.

Of course, with our control of the ridgelines, and expertise in mountain warfare, we can beat any such attacks with minimal numbers.

just a minor quibble...IA dint walk 100's of km to reach Siachen in 1984..they were heli dropped to the passes as we all know....

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 21 Jul 2020 16:53

manjgu wrote:
k prasad wrote:
just a minor quibble...IA dint walk 100's of km to reach Siachen in 1984..they were heli dropped to the passes as we all know....

Sorry, my bad... probably wasn't 100s of kilometers, and I don't remember the details of the Saser Pass traverse. I was thinking about Operation Meghdoot where the Kumaon Regiment walked on foot through Zoji La for days to prevent detection by the Pakistanis. Trying to find the exact info on this.

Edit: Found the Saser pass traverse info... its from Chewang Ringchen's service memoirs (http://claudearpi.blogspot.com/2013/05/ ... 1960s.html)

MeshaVishwas · Post by **MeshaVishwas** » 21 Jul 2020 17:08

Amid border row with China, Naval MiG-29K fighter aircraft to be deployed in Northern sector-ANI
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 721161745/

RaviB · Post by **RaviB** » 21 Jul 2020 17:10

manjgu wrote:
just a minor quibble...IA dint walk 100's of km to reach Siachen in 1984..they were heli dropped to the passes as we all know....

There was a walk that happened in 1983 (by the Kumaon regiment)

Operation Meghdoot, launched on 13 April 1984, consisted of Indian air force helicopters carrying assault troops to the area to obtain control of key ridges and passes. Pakistan had also planned Operation Ababeel7 to capture the same ridges, but the Indians came to know of it and moved first. The attack of the Pakistanis was unsuccessful as by then the Indians already held the commanding positions on the passes (Musharraf, 2007, pp 68–69).

Even though it has been presented at times as the first military incursion into the area, there had been military activity prior to this. The Indian air force first landed helicopters on the glacier in 1978 (Ministry of Defence, 2014). The Indian army moved a large number of troops on foot to the base of the Siachen glacier in 1983, and they had been trained for several weeks to be able to fight there (Indian Army, 2014). The Indian General in charge of the operation, acknowledged that he had been one of a small group of influential officers who had begun lobbying for an aggressive Indian policy on Siachen already in the late 1970s. However he stated that operation was intended to be just a show of force, and not the permanent occupation that it later became (Wirsing, 1995, pp. 208–209).

The initial plan was to deploy troops to three passes on the Saltoro range that controlled access to the Siachen glacier, from north to south, Sia La, Bilafond La and Gyong La (Fig. 3). However, after these positions were secured, the two armies began to compete to gain higher ground nearby.

...

In spite of previous training, the extreme cold and high altitude produced very high casualty figures. Of the 29 Indian soldiers who landed at Bilafond La, one had to be immediately evacuated. Another soldier died on the second day of High Altitude Pulmonary Edema (HAPE), and 21 of the remaining suffered frost bites (Gokhale, 2014).

Source (open access) https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/a ... 9815000347

k prasad · Post by **k prasad** » 21 Jul 2020 17:26

^^^ and Chewang Rinchen's reinforcement of DBO during the '65 war in September (I shared the link above). His team traversed from Partapur, near the Shyok-Nubra confluence to DBO, across the Saser Pass. Google Maps shows the distance as 204 km (Partapur-Panamik-Sasoma-Saser Brangsa-Murgo-DBO road route).

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jul 2020 17:35

https://twitter.com/Vedmalik1/status/12 ... 9844079617

10 years after writing of this article, PLA activities have now made it obvious that China aims to deny Indian access to DBO, Depsang Plains & Karakoram Pass. This area needs greater surveillance, security with more freedom of action than permitted by China Study Gp currently

One wonders if this galwan ploy may not be a feint and the hans are actually planning to come at India from another direction, say like tawang, for instance.

anyway, their little experiment has turned into a nightmare that they did not game for and it has also consolidated largescale external support for India that has likely caused the hans to pause and re evaluate their current stance vis-a-vis India.

the consequences of galwan have spun out of their media and propaganda control and they are facing an economic and diplomatic backlash from India that they least expected along with an unimaginably aggressive military posture that has let them truly see the bared fangs of the IA

the tables have turned for both the hans and the pakis.

The good ole days of a a soldout lootyens backed pliant congis with a craven MEA and a servile PM most unwilling to offend the pakis and the hans seem to have disappeared.

with "trade" blocked at the wagah border by India, the pakis are hurting real bad with prices of essentials skyrocketing and that turd niazi's political capital evaporating into thin air

the pakis are desperate to resume cross border trade once again, mainly to ease food prices and also to stem the rising anger against the niazi govt whom the aam abdul is now starting to blame for India shutting down trade.

The congis would never have done this trade blockage and would have gone with the oft sung dirge of "people to people" contacts being of vital importance and how the "paki people" should not be punished for the actions of their govt and trade would have continued normally imposing no material costs on the pakis for the influx of their jehadis into cashmere.

by not imposing costs on the pakis, and during the congi raj by India "allowing" cross border trading, effectively it was like allowing the paki govt and the paki people to have their cake and eat it too while ordinary Indians payed the bitter price.

china too fell into the very same "have their cake and eat it too" category courtesy the congis and the lootyens liberandus.

this govt has finally tied trade to good relations and good behavior as it should be.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 21 Jul 2020 17:42

MeshaVishwas wrote:Amid border row with China, Naval MiG-29K fighter aircraft to be deployed in Northern sector-ANI
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 721161745/

Good decision. Better to be used in an active war than getting crashed in peacetime. Should be used in launching ops against hotan airbase.

chetak · Post by **chetak** » 21 Jul 2020 17:45

darshhan wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Amid border row with China, Naval MiG-29K fighter aircraft to be deployed in Northern sector-ANI
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 721161745/
Good decision. Better to be used in an active war than getting crashed in peacetime. Should be used in launching ops against hotan airbase.

India has shown its intent clearly.

Next it will be the kitchen sink.

Imagine the IN fighting the hans in ladakh

nam · Post by **nam** » 21 Jul 2020 17:52

I know this will soon escalate with the usual blaming the CDS for "hair brain idea" and "removing jets from Vikramaditya"..

I think these jets are from Vikrant air wing. We have a whole sqd waiting for Cochin to get it's act together. Better off deployed with IAF.

samirdiw · Post by **samirdiw** » 21 Jul 2020 18:04

Indian foothold on DBO/Depsang plain keeps alive, from the Chinese POV, the threat to G219. The completion of the DSDBO road lends an urgency to the Chinese effort to get a grip on the situation at the earliest.

Didn't Amit Shah say that we will be taking back Aksai Chin? Assuming that he is talking about this term as that's the only thing under his control. If DSDBO road is critical to taking G219 is there anything else pending to be done to take back Aksai? This seems like a golden opportunity presented by the Chinese as now we wont have to create a situation.

S_Madhukar · Post by **S_Madhukar** » 21 Jul 2020 19:21

darshhan wrote:
MeshaVishwas wrote:Amid border row with China, Naval MiG-29K fighter aircraft to be deployed in Northern sector-ANI
https://www.aninews.in/news/national/ge ... 721161745/

Good choice. Better to test out the hardware instead of rusting away. I just hope some babus dont get the idea that we need 2 IAF sq less in some stupid cash saving scheme

schinnas · Post by **schinnas** » 21 Jul 2020 19:32

How good are our DRDO Bharat drones. Lot of tall claims about its use in Ladakh with no useful detail.

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indian ... 084103.cms

rsangram · Post by **rsangram** » 21 Jul 2020 21:30

Roop wrote:
rsangram wrote:
No offence intended, but I have some problems with your post. Among other things, you contradict yourself several times.

Here goes...

To all hawks, I recommend patience. And prudence. Let us not Dhoti Shiver, nor rush headlong, full throttle into a war, without looking left of right. Best to be Chankian.
First of all, you say we shouldn't dhoti-shiver, but then implicitly recommend a policy of exactly that -- dhoti-shivering. China has blatantly committed physical aggression on us and cost us almost a couple of dozen lives. Of course our guys fought back and inflicted massive damage on them, but that was all almost accidental, possibly a theoretical disobedience of orders on our troops' part. Other than what 16 Bihar and a couple of other units did on the night of June 15, we have done nothing concrete to China in the military sphere. "Let us be Chankian" is a meaningless statement in the absence of specific measures. How to "be Chankian"? Do what, exactly?

While it is true that we can teach China a lesson now, we should still wait until our economy is better, and then take them on.

Economy is what it is all about, and once we hit the 5 Trillion Economy mark, the gap with China will start narrowing very quickly. The one child policy has ensured that.
What you're saying, in effect, is that we can't afford to take any kinetic action against China now, regardless of their provocations/aggressions, because their economy is bigger than ours. But that is a very wrong-headed and negative policy. There is a fancy name for this policy -- "being Chankian" -- and a somewhat blunter name -- "dhoti-shivering". The fact is, we cannot afford not to do anything in response to what China has already done.

But the message for the Chinese should be very clear. Make no mistake. Any further belligerence on their part, will be met with overwhelming force, and they would not know what hit them. We will be the ones deciding on the time and place.
I see... and how do you plan to deliver this "message" to the Chinese in a way that they would take seriously? "Any further belligerence" like what? What, in your opinion, would constitute adequate "casus belli" for India? If China did nothing active, but simply refused to withdraw from the Fingers area, would that do it? If they built new mortar/gun emplacements on their side of the LAC (i.e. some place which both sides agree is the "Chinese side")? What if they sent unarmed drones (reconaissance platforms) to overfly the airstrip at DBO? Would that do it?

And regardless of what you (or me, or anyone else) decides is a level of sufficient provocation for us to exit Chankian mode and enter Action mode, what happens to your concern about the size of our economy? If we have to fight them in September or December of this year, what about the economy? We can either do as your first paragraph recommended and be patient, prudent and Chankian, or we can do as your latest para suggested and say "Economy be damned, we should meet them overwhelming force, so they don't know what hit them". Your recommendation can be one or the other, but not both.

And finally:

Let us not ... rush headlong, full throttle into a war, without looking left of right.
This is a comical, almost ridiculous, straw-man argument. Nobody here has said we should rush headlong into war without looking left or right. People on this forum (as well as retired officers of IA and IAF in variuos places on the web) have suggested serious courses of kinetic action we could take against China. You may agree with these suggestions or not, but they are not reckless rushing into war without looking left or right.

Mr. Roop,

You make some good points.

I agree with you that right now, the Chinese have changed the LAC in some measure. In a couple of areas, perhaps "drastically", to quote some posters here, like Depsang and Finger area. Some posters here have even suggested that the Chinese have changed the LAC by more than 10 or 15 Kms and to this day are refusing to budge. Some posters here feel that Depsang incursion in particular can threaten DBO and even Siachen, although I myself am a little skeptical that DBO and Siachen are threatened, while agreeing that the Chinese may be inside by 10 or 15Kms.

Some posters here have said that Indian army has ammunition only enough to fight a two week war. I dont know how true that is, but it does indicate that we have certain limitations, particularly if China goes all out and expands the conflict. What if China extends the war and opens many fronts and over many weeks or even months? Who from the international community has any clout individually or collectively as a group of nations, to ask China to stop?

Considering Siachen and DBO are not directly threatened, and the Finger incursions being what they are, is it really worth having a full blown, all out war, which will have such a negative impact on our economy and with not the best of chances of scoring a "win", no matter how you define a "win". The Chinese dont even declare their casualty numbers from June 15. They doubled down after that and occupied the same Patrolling point the next day and did a massive buildup at that point. Do you really see the Chinese settling for any kind of reverses at the hands of India, without escalating to a point and for the duration, where India starts to hurt real bad, and suffers ignominy.

That is the reason I said, let us be Chankian!

That is not to say, that if Chinese indulge in more provocation, or march right into deep inside Arunachal or deep inside Ladakh, that we would not fight. Then we would have no choice, but to fight. That is what I mean by us not Dhoti Shivering, because at some point, when certain red lines are crossed, we will be forced to fight, and we will. And that should be made clear to the Chinese. They should not be under any false illusions, that Indians will never fight.

kumarn · Post by **kumarn** » 21 Jul 2020 22:12

This sounds ridiculously close to, "abki baar maar ke dikhao".

rsangram · Post by **rsangram** » 21 Jul 2020 22:20

kumarn wrote:This sounds ridiculously close to, "abki baar maar ke dikhao".

Very concisely put, and I dont disagree with you. But we should not put it this way. It does not appear good for us.

I mean, really, that is what we have been doing since 1962.

None of us on the forum are in charge or have been in charge of our government policy or defense etc. Had this forum existed since 1962 and the forum members would have been in-charge, perhaps, we would have been in a better position to confront China. But we have not been and we are not at present and we will not be in the future, and I am not sensing the government heading into the direction, even now, where this forum wants it to go.

So given all this, what else can we do?

I have already stated above the downside of going headlong into a war. I dont know what else to say.

Iyersan · Post by **Iyersan** » 21 Jul 2020 22:59

https://twitter.com/sidhant/status/1285 ... 86530?s=21

A week after India, China military talks, Chinese forces remain at finger 5 area of Pangong lake. Some thinning has happened but very little. Next few days will be crucial: Indian govt Sources

Gyan · Post by **Gyan** » 21 Jul 2020 23:50

If we send 100 soldiers at each disputed point & redo Galwan Night, will it lead to all out war? Is it essential to use Tanks to show our resolve? And if China fires first then to what extent it will escalate the situation? Not imposing costs will be a terrible terrible option. National Security is based on perception & once we lose this perception, all the wolves will jump in for dinner.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Jul 2020 00:12

schinnas wrote:How good are our DRDO Bharat drones. Lot of tall claims about its use in Ladakh with no useful detail.

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indian ... 084103.cms

Honestly sounds like the 22year old drone boy who invented 600+ drones, and declined multi crore salary job in europe was finally hired by DRDO

- problem is really with lazy garbage reporting.

neeraj · Post by **neeraj** » 22 Jul 2020 00:21

Bharat Drone

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Jul 2020 00:34

DRDO should stop wasting it's effort on such drones and get it's act together on MALE, HALE and UCAV.

It is time DRDO not get itself involved in tech which our private org can do it with ease.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Jul 2020 00:42

rsangram wrote:...That is the reason I said, let us be Chankian!
...

In BRF we call it being Chunkian

rsangram · Post by **rsangram** » 22 Jul 2020 01:01

abhik wrote:
rsangram wrote:...That is the reason I said, let us be Chankian!
...
In BRF we call it being Chunkian

Who is the joke on ?

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Jul 2020 01:47

Gyan wrote:
abhik wrote:A little cryptic, but though I'll post it here anyway.
https://twitter.com/Vedmalik1/status/12 ... 9844079617

It would be interesting to Read Comments of Bhadra on this friendly forum

https://defenceforumindia.com/threads/i ... 3/page-134

Bhadra wrote:

If India suffers losses at DBO the high profile CSG (China Study Group) would be solely responsible for it..

DBO and Karakorum is not any new problem for Sino - Indian boundary issue. Though all strategic analyst link up the DBO problem to Siachin but DBO was also linked to Karakoram pass and its proximity to G219. Out of entire Ladakh which is nearest to G219 and capable of threatening G-219 as also Shakshgam Area.

One look at the Chinese pattern of operations in 1962 Operation in Ladakh and subsequent patrolling patterns clearly gives out the Chinese interest in DOB. The Chinese and Indian Tamsha that has been happening around the Trig Heights Areas every year is well known to those who have been made responsible for Sino-Indian relations. Chinese subsequently shifted the dispute line ahead of Raki Nala and towards Jeewan Nala inching forward to Y junction or Bottleneck is so evident that even the blind man could have deciphered what Chinese were upto it.

And Lo! what CSG did ?? Created an independent Sector there called SSN based on ITBP. Independent ITBP Sector in most threatened Area ? An area where Chinese have direct access from Xinjiang as also from rear ares of Aksaichin - the only area having two road axis... The area where Chinese since 1962 always came mounted on trucks .... It took hell of efforts on our part to put a few trucks there with ITBP.

Chinese came ... always and every time ... but returned. Even in 2013 they returned after a prolonged time. But this time they have come not to return as is evident from Chinese having blocked Galwan valley and Kangka appraoches to Chip Chap River.

One is flabbergasted at Indian Security establishments approach towards China. The biggest guilty man of 1962 was Bhala Nath Malic. the then Director IB but Indian did not draw an appropriate lesson out of it. Instead on one BN Malik India has created a body of irrelevant people called CSG as super BN Malik with the sole purpose of depriving the India Army of their independence and freedom of military operations on Chines border.. and MEA is the biggest culprit in doing so..

One can not imagine by those who are casting aspirations on Army today that Army or ITBP can not deploy even a single soldier anywhere without approval of CSG. And who is CSG - nobody and everybody ... all those who can not be held accountable and responsible - FS. Secretary MHA. Directors R&W and IB, VCOS/ DGMO. JS(E), PMO... Pakad La .. kisko pakadoge...

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 22 Jul 2020 01:50

why are mig-29s the flavor of the month? what is in Mig29upg and Mig29k that makes our aviators so enamored with it?

nam · Post by **nam** » 22 Jul 2020 02:09

The simple point is there was no infrastructure to allow large scale IA deployment in Eastern Ladakh, nor it was wise to make LAC another LoC with heavy IA deployment. And it is nonsense that IA has no freedom of action along LAC. Every video you see on the jostling along Pangong lake, you will see ITBP along with IA troops!

Was the DBO airstrip created to serve ITBP? Are those T72/T90 permanently deployed at DBO used by ITBP?

Chini is now rich enough to build a alternate road, if G219 is so threaten. It is now about G219. It is about our infra. It is about our ability to mobilize large formations, with short communication line and good infra on China's soft belly. Tibet.

Any PLA General will know the threat a 1.3 million army pose on the border at the highest region of the world, where nothing worth while lives. There is no glory in fighting in this god forsaken region, against "brown" people. The glory and budget is on the East.. facing TFTA US, Taiwan, Japan, Australia..

So they want to show our place by regular incursion, but prevent it from escalating, there by never requiring a large deployment. This time, things went haywire for the PLA.

Vivasvat · Post by **Vivasvat** » 22 Jul 2020 02:28

vsunder · Post by **vsunder** » 22 Jul 2020 02:56

Z Morh Tunnel: 6.5 km tunnel between Srinagar and Kargil. IL&FS got the tender and that became a debacle. Re-tendered and awarded to Apco, Jan 2020. First blast for making the tunnel yesterday. Completion date 2021.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Z-Morh_Tunnel

Driving time to Leh will be lessened and there will be no need to make an overnight halt at Kargil. All weather connectivity will be provided to Kargil via this tunnel and onwards to Leh through the Zoji La tunnel 22km from this Z Morh tunnel.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zoji-la_Tunnel

No private contractor bid for this tunnel in PPP mode. Foundation stone was laid in 2018.

darshhan · Post by **darshhan** » 22 Jul 2020 03:00

schinnas wrote:How good are our DRDO Bharat drones. Lot of tall claims about its use in Ladakh with no useful detail.

https://m.timesofindia.com/india/indian ... 084103.cms

Don't scoff at "Tall Claims". Both Goras and Chinese have mastered this art. You are living in the age of Tall claims. DRDO is only now catching up. This is one of things it is doing right. Let us congratulate them. To play in Big boys club you need to be an expert in making tall claims.

P.S.I am not being sarcastic here.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 22 Jul 2020 03:06

rsangram wrote: Who is the joke on ?

Easy. A Midori chaddi pops out and flutters by accident. Dont make it a habit - you already have two outstanding warnings

m_saini · Post by **m_saini** » 22 Jul 2020 03:28

darshhan wrote:
Don't scoff at "Tall Claims". Both Goras and Chinese have mastered this art. You are living in the age of Tall claims. DRDO is only now catching up. This is one of things it is doing right. Let us congratulate them. To play in Big boys club you need to be an expert in making tall claims.

P.S.I am not being sarcastic here.

+1001
Perception matters a lot and is frequently a deciding factor between getting the funding for desi products or not.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 22 Jul 2020 03:54

But this time they have come not to return as is evident from Chinese having blocked Galwan valley and Kangka appraoches to Chip Chap River.

Any idea where Kangka is? Is it same or near Gorga/hot springs? TIA.

LakshmanPST · Post by **LakshmanPST** » 22 Jul 2020 04:00

abhik wrote:
But this time they have come not to return as is evident from Chinese having blocked Galwan valley and Kangka appraoches to Chip Chap River.[\quote]
Any idea where Kangka is? Is it same or near Gorga/hot springs? TIA.

Yes, Kong Ka La is near Gogra post (around 10km North East of Gogra and 20 km South East of Hot Spring)...

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2020 05:29

A tragedy Gen.Malik's forthright and penetrative insight into the minds of the "yellow peril" fell on deaf years in the Delhi establishment,particularly the MEA who in hindsight for decades have been the best circus act in town.Losing the entire neighbourhood to China who have physically penetrated onto the soil of some of them,encircling India in an ever increasing grip of strangulation,apart from the dereliction of duty in protecting our sacred soil in Aksai Chin and elsewhere on the border. The current dispensation should take to task these unworthies in an inquiry as to how they misled the nation and various govts. of the day.A reckoning must happen and the guilty brought to book. Gen.Malik's prophetic words are a striking reminder that India's foreign policy is useless unless the military are involved in formulating strategies and tactics to preserve our interests. Buffoonery babudom MEA style must be swept out of South Block.We are at war. If we do not act now on an hourly basis to counter and defeat the PRC challenge ,it will end up in an unmitigated catastrophe.We have yet to prove as the good general and former chief wrote, that we are not a "soft state" where a lack of strategic thinking and incompetence prevails.

rsangram · Post by **rsangram** » 22 Jul 2020 06:05

=== admin note off topic deleted ===

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 22 Jul 2020 09:41

Titbit in the TOI.IN P-8Is and MIG-29Ks also being deployed against China. P-8s known for some time,but the 29Ks,excellent news.We have 40 odd 29Ks,enough to equip both the VikA and the Vikrant still awaiting completion,will have to do a year of trials and then be commissioned.Expected yr. of commissioning around early 2022. Until then these birds will be of immense help in combating the PLAAF. The VikA is reportedly somewhere in the ANC region,just exercised with the USS Nimitz,and will have its full complement of aircraft aboard,around 20+. That will leave the second sqd. meant for the Vikrant available for Himalayan duties. Great to see the IN ready for battle on both fronts.

Meanwhile in Ru,its only CV the Kuz in in the focks being repaired and refitted with new weaponry , sensors,etc. expected to take another 2 years.The capsizing of Ru's largest floating dock capable of handling the Kuz not too long ago was a major setback. Therefore,their 29Ks will possibly be available should we want a few more.An extra batch of new upgraded 29Ks could be ordered while we lease the exg. CV aircraft from the Kuz.

Manish_Sharma · Post by **Manish_Sharma** » 22 Jul 2020 10:50

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We have 11/12 Divs dedicated against China and and 24 against Pak. Entire Pak Army is 22/23 Divs. Bulk of those concentrated in Punjab. Look at Indus and 5 Punjab rivers on map and you will understand our options. 2 front war can be handled. IAF can also manage. IN has big edge https://t.co/QLIaKu50C4

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