ramana wrote:
Actually China chose this war. Think it over.
Most likely they will take advantage of US Leadership getting distracted by the elections. Even if part of the administration speaks about engaging with China - it's all focused on South China Sea. As the heat increases in US elections - expect the Chinese provocation to build here as well.
Elections in democracies is really complex and it'll be quite difficult to game the consequences - it *can* be a double-edged sword and can seriously back-fire. For instance, if DT decides that being tougher against bat-eaters is actually a vote winner, he can take fairly hardline position. The opposition will either decide to oppose (like Congis did against Balakot) and lose or decide to support the action to remain in the narrative.
The only thing we need from US has nothing to do with their policy makers - Intel, spares and support in Security Council.
So, US election shadow on the border issue is IMO, frankly overblown. And if the bat eaters try to use it, I suspect they'll be surprised
going to f8 from f4 means zilch..similarly withdrawl from other areas as they are on relatively flat ground ( happy to be corrected though) means little..can always motor down to f4 and other places. but we will not be able to occupy the heights again. So now the least is clear demarcation of border or nothing. and no more idotic fist fights and brawls. kill or get killed. I wanna see if PLA has stomach for casualties in this age/time. If this was PLA of 1962 there would have been violent action.
There will be no border demarcation, CCP/PLA dont want to settle the border anytime soon as they eye whole of Ladakh and with their slaves on the GB they will not want to settle the border. This is ending up in a stalemate unless Winnie gets kicked out there will be no change in stated positions. May be they will use force and we dont know how it will pan out thereafter.
Nitin G reiterates that Black top and Helmet are occupied by PLA, going by Vishnu Som we have only occupied the surrounding positions (possibly making it harder for the PLA to supply their positions). They would have to be extraordinary incompetent if they are not able to hold on to a position a few hundred meters from an existing base.
Honestly not a fan of this non stop "think of the troops stationed at high altitude", "this is not a game", "this should be pissfuly resolved" etc. Like it or not our politicians will any day commit our troops to indefinite deployment in hard locations (siachen glacier, Kargil) and low intensity conflict instead of having a decisive conflict to take things to their logical conclusion. Besides reduces the deterrence value of your military in the adversary's mind.
pankajs wrote:From what I understand, we have take up a position on the F3 ridge facing the Chinese on the F4 ridge. Now with our control of Ane La and Kui la, I feel there is a possibility to climb up one of the valley between Ane La and Pangang tso at the root of the fingers and over to the other side and approach the Chinese post of F4 from the opposite side i.e. the east.
Going from Ane La to F4 sounds over the top (literally), we will have to scale a 6000+meter peak. Would just be easier to go from the valley that is west of F2 and reach the F4 ridge. F2-F6 merge into the same ridge, which is probably the best place to take them on, and we will be at an equal footing to take and occupy the ridge (And I believe that's what we have done as per some sat images).
BajKhedawal wrote:How about a permanent seat at the UN security council in exchange of letting the little emperors withdraw in one piece?
No. Return Indian territory or nothing. That is all the Chinese understand.
Oh absolutely, I was just worried about the ruskies or the powers that be doing a la taskent on our RM to hurt team India. just yesterday there was a threat exposed to eliminate our pm.
From some points of F4/5, the mouth of the the valley between F4-3, F3-2 can easily be observed therefore difficult to evade approach to the ridge.
However, the valley behind the near horizontal ridge has an easy climb almost up to the top with a almost vertical climb of 80-100 me at the dividing ridge. The whole approach is shielded behind this horizontal ridge up to the top. Makes a decent but good climb.
This valley drains into the Paggong tso at a height of ~4250 m while at the base of the top is ~5900 m over a distance of ~17.2 km. That gradient is not that bad considering the experience of the Indian Army.
About 5 teams of 5 people each initial to pin down the F4/Green top Chinese post from behind and top.
Last edited by pankajs on 04 Sep 2020 22:28, edited 1 time in total.
pankajs wrote:From some points of F4/5, the mouth of the the valley between F4-3, F3-2 can easily be observed therefore difficult to evade approach to the ridge.
However, the valley behind the near horizontal ridge has an easy climb almost up to the top with a almost vertical climb of 80-100 me at the dividing ridge. The whole approach is shielded behind this horizontal ridge up to the top. Makes a decent but good climb.
This valley drains into the Paggong tso at a height of ~4250 m while at the base of the top is ~5900 m over a distance of ~17.2 km. That gradient is not that bad considering the experience of the Indian Army.
About 5 teams of 5 people each initial to pin down the F4/Green top Chinese post from behind and top.
Climb of about 100 meter for every 1 km. Comfortable considering the terrain/location except the last 80-100 meter almost vertical hump. Now will need to examine the reserve slope and possibilities.
Last edited by pankajs on 04 Sep 2020 22:35, edited 1 time in total.
V_Raman wrote:All Chinese side is in military unform while Indian side has only one ?!
Which proves the PLA is running the show, and not no women on the Chinese side. On the Indian side, the leadership in the Defence Ministry is civilian with career civil service and appointed persons, and at least one woman.
Last edited by Mort Walker on 04 Sep 2020 22:41, edited 1 time in total.
V_Raman wrote:All Chinese side is in military unform while Indian side has only one ?!
Because India is democracy and CCP is not? I dint expect a non-military guy in their defence ministry. one thing better in CCP type places - they ensure defence guy man the defence mnistry. on our side, babus an d elected officials need to be trained every time a new guy is at the helm.
I may be completely wrong but I think that Eleven is a tyrant absolute. I think I see fear and stress in the eyes of the chinese DM as failure will become his fault alone as Eleven is completely firewalled.
One swallow does not make a summer but see image in the tweet below.
The PLA by going public has made sure someone will get the boot, if things don't work out for them. They could have hidden it like we did in April/May.
Now the issue for them is, if they go back from F4, they will be caught as liars, as so far they have always maintained it is within it's LAC.
Look it any ways, this is not going to end well for the PLA..Jokers have painted themselves in to a corner.
Last edited by nam on 04 Sep 2020 23:17, edited 1 time in total.
So we occupy a few ridge lines and immediately the mighty PLA backs off its aggression, their FM starts making conciliatory noises, and their Defense Min "requests" an unscheduled meeting in Moscow and the whole country is smiling saying "we have taught the Chinese a lesson and they have now softened and ready to compromise on the border" and getting back to peace nicking in double time.
China/CCP has many ways of leading us down the garden path at the end of which we'll be holding lemons, if we lose sight of our long term goals and national interest:
LOSER COMPROMISE 1:
- China will first negotiate that both parties should go back to status quo ante before May 2020. They have made marginal territory gains which have little tactical or strategic significance and are now willing to give that up. In exchange, India must give up the significant tactical and strategic positions we have occupied over the past week. India was asking for status quo ante all these weeks after all, no ?
LOSER COMPROMISE 2:
- For years China has been pointedly ignoring Indian statements that the border needs to be settled. When they built G219 through Aksai-Hind occupied since 1962 there wasn't as much as a whimper from India. So who the frik cares, right ? But now there is OBOR and CPEC which is vulnerable to India's nationalist Govt's ambitions, India's Home Min is on record saying we'll take back Aksai-Hind one day. Converting J&K and Ladhak into UTs under direct Central Govt control is the first step as CCP sees it. So rake up tensions and agree for border talks now.
If India agrees, these talks will go on for years, heck for few 100m of incursions, Commander level talks have been stretched for 4 months. For a 4000Km long border, we can spend 4 generations. Meanwhile G219 will be 8 laned, Han citizen will have replaced the last Tibetan, OBOR, CPEC and string of pearls through India's backside will be a reality.
LOSER COMPROMISE 3:
- China will be OK to give and take bits of land here and there along the LAC, wherever parties agree on whatever perceptions they have. In every case where the Indian perception of LAC meets that of the Chinese, BUT IS BELOW THE LIMIT LINES OF THE J&K TERRITORY AS CEDED BY RAJA HARISHINGH I 1947, the Chinese will haggle for a while and finally agree. Thus LEGALISING THE ANNEXURE OF AKSAI-HIND IN 1962.
Added later:
In the same way, India will have to agree to no longer stake any claim to the terrority illegally occupied by Pak and ceded to China, and of course agree to compromise on Gilgit-Baltistan with Pak, essentially agreeing to convert LOC to IB. This is more than what bankrupt failed state of Pakistan can ever hope to achieve in the next 2 decades. Thus China will take care of its slave, and whatever belongs to the slave really belongs to the master, right?
LOSER COMPROMISE 4:
- China can very well take the position that what ever rules or principles are applied in "settling" the borders in Ladhak will not be applicable elsewhere. So do not dream of settling borders near Sikkim, Bhutan or Arunachal on the same lines. The Chinese will therefore reserve the right to salami slice elsewhere, and adopt other tactics like insurgency, separatism, intimidation (of Bhutan), coercion (Nepal, BD) etc which won't work in Ladhak.
LOSER COMPROMISE 5:
- Upon agreeing for talks, China will want India to roll back all economic measures taken up so far against it, reopen the doors for Huawei etc, and agree to negotiate a trade agreement if not reconsider ARCEP. India needs to show it's "good faith". So that the CCP can stem the trickle of global businesses flowing out of China ASAP, before they become rivers and torrents.
LOSER COMPROMISE 6:
Indian establishment still salivates for that doggone UNSC seat. China will promise a "balanced attitude towards reasonable consideration of India's aspirations" for this unobtanium we obsess about like some deep rooted sexual fantasy that vaporises all caution, and deflate the newly discovered "Indian SPINE" for a decade or so.
We are facing a 21st century Hindi-China bhai-bhai redux.
Modi & Co.s real deshbhakti and 70mm chests will be put to test when they face these tempting options which will seemingly allow the current Gov to claim a political, diplomatic and military victory over China but will ultimately result in a sell out of India's integrity and sovereignty.
We can't allow that to happen.
Last edited by Cyrano on 05 Sep 2020 00:44, edited 1 time in total.
So we occupy a few ridge lines and immediately the mighty PLA backs off its aggression, their FM starts making conciliatory noises, and their Defense Min "requests" an unscheduled meeting in Moscow and the whole country is smiling saying "we have taught the Chinese a lesson and they have now softened and ready to compromise on the border" and getting back to peace nicking in double time.
China/CCP has many ways of leading us down the garden path at the end of which we'll be holding lemons, if we lose sight of our long term goals and national interest:
LOSER COMPROMISE 1:
.................
We are facing a 21st century Hindi-China bhai-bhai redux.
Modi & Co.s real deshbhakti and 70mm chests will be put to test when they face these tempting options which will seemingly allow the current Gov to claim a political, diplomatic and military victory over China but will ultimately result in a sell out of India's integrity and sovereignty.
The first sign that India is not walking into a loser's compromise will be statements from CCP mouthpieces reacting to India's positions with words like "shocking", "day dreaming", "hallucinatory", "totally unacceptable", "disconnected with reality", "utterly impossible" etc...
Rezang La was a defeat seared into our collective memory. The Chinese too lost 100s in capturing it. History was overturned overnight, apparently without a shot being fired. So we need to think deeply about why such a monumental achievement is being underplayed.
I believe that there is a larger purpose behind acting tough and talking soft. Stealth and patience are potent weapons for an underdog
Rajnath Singh:
-Presenting arguments, facts, logic, appealing to rationally, supported by various hand gestures
Chinaman:
- I want to look like I'm discussing only to get to know your position, your demands and report back. Nothing you are saying will have the slightest effect on what we intend to do.
V_Raman wrote:We have been asking for status quo ante - we cant say no if that is proposed.
And why the *hic* not? This is the overly "dharmic" attitude right there that hamstrings India.
Of course we can say no, with a deadpan face. In fact, we *will* say no with a deadpan face, they can lump it and whine about our "adharmic" stance all they want.
Lisa wrote:I may be completely wrong but I think that Eleven is a tyrant absolute. I think I see fear and stress in the eyes of the chinese DM as failure will become his fault alone as Eleven is completely firewalled.
One swallow does not make a summer but see image in the tweet below.
Rajnath Singh:
-Presenting arguments, facts, logic, appealing to rationally, supported by various hand gestures
Chinaman:
- I want to look like I'm discussing only to get to know your position, your demands and report back. Nothing you are saying will have the slightest effect on what we intend to do.
And why the *hic* not? This is the overly "dharmic" attitude right there that hamstrings India.