India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[Raveen]

NSA K Shivshankar's assertions on Chinese expecting us to behave like a vassal state does not sound strong - because we have shown in Dokalam that we will not back down. When we did not back down even when main incursion was in Bhutan - what would the Chinese be smoking to assume we will back down when incursion is on our own territory.

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

[wig]

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... J_amp.html

India sending high-powered boats to match heavier Chinese vessels while patrolling Ladakh lake
The decision to send steel hulled boats to Pangong Tso was taken by the tri-services this week with the Navy asked to transport the vessels through C-17 heavy lift transporters to Leh on a priority basis.

extracts

Indian Navy is sending a dozen high-powered, bigger capacity and top-of-the-line surveillance equipped steel boats to Ladakh so that the Indian Army can patrol Pangong Tso and match the heavier Type 928 B vessels of the Chinese Army lake fleet. The Pangong Tso lake is at the centre of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) aggression in East Ladakh with the Chinese bullying India into ceding territory on both the banks and deliberately pushing the Modi government into retaliatory mode.

[Dilbu]

If their plan was to strike a devastating blow just before winter and hide behind snow - then why mobilise in Apr-May and give India a 4 month window to buildup ?? So a quick strike which cannot be escalated to a wider conflict since mountains will snow out also does not seem to the original intent.

This is why I suspect it is a diversion to attract world's attention while something else is being planned somewhere else.

[Aditya_V]

Hopefully, some Shyena Torpedos also so some of those Chinese boats accidental sink and we candland at Sirijap and the Chinese at Finger 4 ridges can enjoy life without supplies.

[ldev]

NSA K Shivshankar's assertions on Chinese expecting us to behave like a vassal state does not sound strong - because we have shown in Dokalam that we will not back down. When we did not back down even when main incursion was in Bhutan - what would the Chinese be smoking to assume we will back down when incursion is on our own territory.

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

Unfortunately Galwan is seen by the Chinese as an out of control action by Indian front line troops, It is not seen by them as any new found resolve by the Indian leadership. So it will not be a deterrent to China.

This is the Chinese Foreign Minister on June 18 just after Galwan:

Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi has urged India to "severely punish those responsible for conflict and control its frontline troops," reported news agency Reuters -- a statement that reflects Beijing's stance that Indian soldiers crossed into Chinese territory, violating the understanding between the two nations.

This statement by the Chinese Minister underlines their understanding that Galwan happened because Indian frontline troops took matters into their own hands and were out of control and that the Indian leadership would never take such a confrontational approach of it's own accord.

How and why did the Chinese Foreign Minister come to this conclusion? Did somebody on the Indian side via either Track 1 or Track 2 apologize for the "out of control" behavior of Indian frontline troops?

[Rs_singh]

If their plan was to strike a devastating blow just before winter and hide behind snow - then why mobilise in Apr-May and give India a 4 month window to buildup ?? So a quick strike which cannot be escalated to a wider conflict since mountains will snow out also does not seem to the original intent.

This is why I suspect it is a diversion to attract world's attention while something else is being planned somewhere else.

Dilbu and Larry,

Plan was not to mobilize now but COVID forced their hand. As we contemplated before, these ops were planned in late 2018, well before Covid struck. CMC had no option but to move now when their plans are well rehearsed and the enemy is distracted along with the rest of the world.

As for, why delay and not strike now, allowing us to concentrate force? 2 reasons, both driven by the nature of conflict and their desired end state:

1. As I’ve stated earlier, they want to fight a small localized action. They delay suits them, not us. We are concentrating forces in a small area which is ripe pickings for a counter force strike. The more we concentrate the better the result for them. This first strike will also be demoralizing in addition to devastating. Further, it denies us the ability to open a secondary front of our choosing and allows them to keep the conflict localized.

2. If I was them, I would keep talking. Like they are now. Keep building up. Like they are now. The more they can delay, the better it’ll be for them. We only stand to lose from this delay because defensive troops can only remain on alert for so long, after that complacency sets in. Attacking troops don’t have this dilemma.

But with anything in war, the enemy gets a vote. We have our options. I’ll expand on this in a bit. Though, I must admit, what I’ve seen so far from GOI is an error of judgement at best and self delusion at worst. This isn’t gonna go away by simply wishing it so.

Last, g219, is a tactical imperative for us. Not them. It has absolutely zilch to do with this stand off.

[suryag]

RS singh Sir with regards to complacency mentioned in (2) it equally applies on them too. At the end of the day if I were an Indian soldier I would be driven by my desire to protect my motherland, not sure the same applies for a PLGA soldier

[ramana]

NSA K Shivshankar's assertions on Chinese expecting us to behave like a vassal state does not sound strong - because we have shown in Dokalam that we will not back down. When we did not back down even when main incursion was in Bhutan - what would the Chinese be smoking to assume we will back down when incursion is on our own territory.

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

He is articulating the Congress line of submission or kowtow.

[RaviB]

NSA K Shivshankar's assertions on Chinese expecting us to behave like a vassal state does not sound strong - because we have shown in Dokalam that we will not back down. When we did not back down even when main incursion was in Bhutan - what would the Chinese be smoking to assume we will back down when incursion is on our own territory.

The last time their military mobilization wasn't even half the size of this time, and there was no mechanised infantry, armour. This time they are all along the border, not just in Ladakh. Previous incursions were all localised, not in so many places at once. So basically in Doklam, they believe that they went into a standoff because they hadn't planned for the IA showing up. This time they want to overwhelm IA, they are prepared for a localised war, possibly including the SHAAF. Their assumption is that we'll back down not because of what they're smoking but because of their overwhelming firepower.

[Rs_singh]

RS singh Sir with regards to complacency mentioned in (2) it equally applies on them too. At the end of the day if I were an Indian soldier I would be driven by my desire to protect my motherland, not sure the same applies for a PLGA soldier

SuryaG, please no sir for me.

I was talking strictly from a tactical perspective. I mentioned this before on this thread. Stands off are like a pendulum for troop complacency. It favors the defender at first. Defending troops are slowly worn out after being on alert day in and day out. Momentum shifts to the attacker and if an attack doesn’t materialize, shifts back to the defender.

Motherland, country, nation are big words and do not motivate the man with a rifle perched at 15K ft. It might sound trivial, but good food and cold water do. Sometimes, a bottle of scotch.

[VikramS]

This statement by the Chinese Minister underlines their understanding that Galwan happened because Indian frontline troops took matters into their own hands and were out of control and that the Indian leadership would never take such a confrontational approach of it's own accord.

How and why did the Chinese Foreign Minister come to this conclusion? Did somebody on the Indian side via either Track 1 or Track 2 apologize for the "out of control" behavior of Indian frontline troops?

CCP was told that the raid to avenge the death of the CO was a decision taken by the junior officers in the heat of the battle.

It seems that the CCP wanted a top IA general removed and IA resisted
Two things come to mind:

1. PLA suffered enough casualties for them to ask for the removal of the General.
2. They think, and probably it is the Indian line, that IA will not take offensive action. They seem to have been taken by surprise and are angry.

[ramana]

If you read the news that pakis have moved 20,000 troops (just shy of two divisions) in Ladakh (see map the area around Siachin and below it is in play. Chinese from east and tsp from west. That could be the play (or could be a feint per chinese character) and troops have been getting mobilized because of this. Depsang plains is the place to watch (and not 4-8 fingers, the land there is in contest few sq km, it is a diversion, that public is falling for), if the balloon goes up you will hear Deosai plains as well. They are trying to cut off the North east corner of Ladakh.
A word of caution - What is the issue of so called learned people of India, you very well know Wire, print...ajai shukla (who sold off siachin during MMS times), A news paper anchor whose dad also was in the selling party...why they have credibility? Why are these people stupid? They have an agenda inimical to India (and I am not saying BJP or Hindu, some may argue I am fine with anti-party or anti-religion), it has been proven 100 of times. Why consume their news, they twist everything, even as small as passing gas, to suite their narrative. Then why fall for them?


https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... or_map.svg
https://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/ladakh ... sical.html

And our folks repeatedly post trash from these folks Shukla, Kanwal, whole India Toady, Coupta..

Folks have a heart for those who log in to find news and get this daily dose of garbage.
Please don't put such useless info.

[Rs_singh]

NSA K Shivshankar's assertions on Chinese expecting us to behave like a vassal state does not sound strong - because we have shown in Dokalam that we will not back down. When we did not back down even when main incursion was in Bhutan - what would the Chinese be smoking to assume we will back down when incursion is on our own territory.

The last time their military mobilization wasn't even half the size of this time, and there was no mechanised infantry, armour. This time they are all along the border, not just in Ladakh. Previous incursions were all localised, not in so many places at once. So basically in Doklam, they believe that they went into a standoff because they hadn't planned for the IA showing up. This time they want to overwhelm IA, they are prepared for a localised war, possibly including the SHAAF. Their assumption is that we'll back down not because of what they're smoking but because of their overwhelming firepower.

RaviB,

I must strongly object to you calling their Air Force, SHAAF. The correct acronym (according to me) should be SHAAT. SHA Air Tailspiners. Pun Intended. I guess, doubly so.

[chola]

NSA K Shivshankar's assertions on Chinese expecting us to behave like a vassal state does not sound strong - because we have shown in Dokalam that we will not back down. When we did not back down even when main incursion was in Bhutan - what would the Chinese be smoking to assume we will back down when incursion is on our own territory.

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

1) The idea that Cheen expects anyone, especially India, to act like a vassal is poor intelligence at worst or naive at best. Whom have they gotten to act like a vassal to them? Vietnam? Taiwan? Oz? NOBODY bows down to them. Why would they expect thus of India? They don't. Which brings up the next point,

2) the reason they militarized the SCS is because no one listened to them. If Vietnam backed off. If the Philippines didn't take them to international court. They might have enjoyed de facto control of the SCS without the expense of creating entire islands and creating an opening for the US to intervene,

3) This brings us to the third point. They know we won't back down. They also know since Doklam that we would counteract them with force if necessary. But because of Doklam, the chinis also no longer believe they can make do with a skeleton (but budget-friendly) force in Tibet. This buildup today is analogous to the SCS when they understood that their opponents won't listen and they needed to come in force to bully. To create fait accompli on the ground.

Modi is probably right that they did not "invade" India but they took the gray areas and will take more because just like the seas, the mountains are not natural human habitats and you need machines to support you there. They will always go back their strengths which are infrastructure, industry and logistics. Those are what makes them a power. They can't fight for sh1t and they know it and had stay away from fighting for decades on end.

We can either play to their strength or to ours.

[ldev]

RS singh Sir with regards to complacency mentioned in (2) it equally applies on them too. At the end of the day if I were an Indian soldier I would be driven by my desire to protect my motherland, not sure the same applies for a PLGA soldier

The PLA troops at the forward deployements can relax until the order comes through to attack. Indian troops on the other hand have to be vigilant day in and day out because the attack could come tonight or maybe not until October. That will wear them down over time. The Chinese troops can also relax because the Chinese leadership is close to 100% certain that India will not attack.

Also given that the Chinese were mesmerized by the US armed forces RMA as exhibited in the first Gulf War, they are likely to want to try it out say in Depsang. Saturation artillery and missile strikes on the concentrated Indian formations there hoping to annihilate them and then the infantry moves in to mop up and take over the area.

[Rs_singh]

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

1) The idea that Cheen expects anyone, especially India, to act like a vassal is poor intelligence at worst or naive at best. Whom have they gotten to act like a vassal to them? Vietnam? Taiwan? Oz? NOBODY bows down to them. Why would they expect thus of India? They don't. Which brings up the next point,

2) the reason they militarized the SCS is because no one listened to them. If Vietnam backed off. If the Philippines didn't take them to international court. They might have enjoyed de facto control of the SCS without the expense of creating entire islands and creating an opening for the US to intervene,

3) This brings us to the third point. They know we won't back down. They also know since Doklam that we would counteract them with force if necessary. But because of Doklam, the chinis also no longer believe they can make do with a skeleton (but budget-friendly) force in Tibet. This buildup today is analogous to the SCS when they understood that their opponents won't listen and they needed to come in force to bully. To create fait accompli on the ground.

Modi is probably right that they did not "invade" India but they took the gray areas and will take more because just like the seas, the mountains are not natural human habitats and you need machines to support you there. They will always go back their strengths which is infrastructure, industry and logistics. Those are what makes them a power. They can't fight for sh1t and they know it and had stay away from fighting for decades on end.

We can either play to their strength or to ours.

Sir,

1. Our friends to the West and the northern neighbor of ROK come to mind. Also several former British colonies in Africa.
2. Militarization of the SCS happened long before tussles with Vietnam and Philippines. Borne out interest to keep away other powers from Taiwan, HK and Macau. All of which they’ve slowly swallowed. They’ve gone from a defensive to an offensive posture in the SCS over the years on the back of their growing military MIC.
3. Doklam was a tactical victory for us and a strategic victory for them. They are there, road completed. Objective achieved. We delayed this, but did not stop them.
4. Everything else I agree with.

[ramana]

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

Unfortunately Galwan is seen by the Chinese as an out of control action by Indian front line troops, It is not seen by them as any new found resolve by the Indian leadership. So it will not be a deterrent to China.

This is the Chinese Foreign Minister on June 18 just after Galwan:

Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi has urged India to "severely punish those responsible for conflict and control its frontline troops," reported news agency Reuters -- a statement that reflects Beijing's stance that Indian soldiers crossed into Chinese territory, violating the understanding between the two nations.

This statement by the Chinese Minister underlines their understanding that Galwan happened because Indian frontline troops took matters into their own hands and were out of control and that the Indian leadership would never take such a confrontational approach of it's own accord.

How and why did the Chinese Foreign Minister come to this conclusion? Did somebody on the Indian side via either Track 1 or Track 2 apologize for the "out of control" behavior of Indian frontline troops?

Even in 1962 Chinese claimed patrols by Indian army were sign of impeding attack. So its standard propaganda by Cinese no need to give it any weight.

[Raveen]

Actually, he isn't wrong, that is what we have historically done. Dokalam was a shock for the Chinese and this is a way to test our new found resolve. Unfortunately, it won't be without bloodshed.

Unfortunately Galwan is seen by the Chinese as an out of control action by Indian front line troops, It is not seen by them as any new found resolve by the Indian leadership. So it will not be a deterrent to China.

This is the Chinese Foreign Minister on June 18 just after Galwan:

Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi has urged India to "severely punish those responsible for conflict and control its frontline troops," reported news agency Reuters -- a statement that reflects Beijing's stance that Indian soldiers crossed into Chinese territory, violating the understanding between the two nations.

This statement by the Chinese Minister underlines their understanding that Galwan happened because Indian frontline troops took matters into their own hands and were out of control and that the Indian leadership would never take such a confrontational approach of it's own accord.

How and why did the Chinese Foreign Minister come to this conclusion? Did somebody on the Indian side via either Track 1 or Track 2 apologize for the "out of control" behavior of Indian frontline troops?

For starters, the entire premise of my posts has been you can ignore what they are saying - they are trying everything and saying everything, none of it means anything. Look at what they are doing, that's all that counts.

Secondly, Dokhlam was the resolve, current standoff including Galwan was the test. We failed part of it (F4), and exceeded expectations with part of it (Galwan). The game isn't over, there is more to this.

[ldev]

CCP was told that the raid to avenge the death of the CO was a decision taken by the junior officers in the heat of the battle.

It seems that the CCP wanted a top IA general removed and IA resisted

What should have been conveyed to them is that the decision to mount the raid was taken at the junior officer level and in retrospect we (the senior military and political leadership) support that decision. And look at the audacity of the PLA, wanting to remove an IA General. So they want a veto on what India can build on it's side of the border and also on the firing of Indian Generals. What chutzpah.

[fanne]

If I were admin I would ban someone again talking about excel and 5 times economy...even when people are talking about tactical objectives. All these discussion creates so much noise that larger strategic news, picture and intent is lost.
TSP has moved 2 div worth of troops to Ladakh area. TSP does not have 2 div to spare. Plus moving them to mountainous region near Ladakh, 1000 km away from Punjab, Sindh basically rules them out from any India-tsp war in the plaines. So why would they do it, because this is where the real offensive war is going to be fought (and China has waited for TSP forces to move in as per the plan), rest of the places it will be defensive. China has also moved additional 10k force in the same region. The small silver of Indian land between Aksai chin and Gilgit region is the objective.
Anybody knows how this pincer movement in theory can develop? What is the axis. We have enough forces in the region, and perhaps we can incircle them by advancing North from Neelum valley. Perhaps our hand has been forced and maybe in 2020 we may either gain Balistan or on the opposite end -end up loosing some of our own land.
Unless this is feint for movement in Sikkim and AP.

[ramana]

BTW the Chinese replaced their Western Theater Commander of the ground troops with an officer from Eastern theater which has more threats: Hong Kong, Indo China Sea, 7 carriers in Pacific.

And the Galwan incident was a top level decision by the former command and failed.

[Sanju]

Fanne ji, I will point out to the precedence set in 1965, when we opened the Front across the IB in response to the pressure at LOC/J&K.

Pakis and the Chini opening up a Front, doesn't curtail us from opening up a Front on another area to relieve the pressure.

[Sanju]

BTW the Chinese replaced their Western Theater Commander of the ground troops with an officer from Eastern theater which has more threats: Hong Kong, Indo China Sea, 7 carriers in Pacific.

And the Galwan incident was a top level decision by the former command and failed.

Ramana ji, I thought the Galwan incident was the brain child of the new commander.

[Rs_singh]

If I were admin I would ban someone again talking about excel and 5 times economy...even when people are talking about tactical objectives. All these discussion creates so much noise that larger strategic news, picture and intent is lost.
TSP has moved 2 div worth of troops to Ladakh area. TSP does not have 2 div to spare. Plus moving them to mountainous region near Ladakh, 1000 km away from Punjab, Sindh basically rules them out from any India-tsp war in the plaines. So why would they do it, because this is where the real offensive war is going to be fought (and China has waited for TSP forces to move in as per the plan), rest of the places it will be defensive. China has also moved additional 10k force in the same region. The small silver of Indian land between Aksai chin and Gilgit region is the objective.
Anybody knows how this pincer movement in theory can develop? What is the axis. We have enough forces in the region, and perhaps we can incircle them by advancing North from Neelum valley. Perhaps our hand has been forced and maybe in 2020 we may either gain Balistan or on the opposite end -end up loosing some of our own land.
Unless this is feint for movement in Sikkim and AP.

Sir,

I’m not convinced that PA will take part in offensive ops in tandem with PLA. At least not yet. They are their to force us to commit troops to the west and take resource away from the East. The one flaw in my argument will be when they start running a join mil ex. That can happen overnight. Till then, I don’t consider their posture as being offensive. If anything, their calculation might be to prevent us from trying something funky in the west using the buildup on the East as a cover. Siachen is a tough nut to crack. If i was them, I would cut south of Siachen, isolating SRs to the north and forcing us to fight defensive to prevent further southward ingress Into own while cutting off our boys to the north.

[Rs_singh]

Also, what does TSP stand for? I know it refers to our friends in the west.

[ramana]

If I were admin I would ban someone again talking about excel and 5 times economy...even when people are talking about tactical objectives. All these discussion creates so much noise that larger strategic news, picture and intent is lost.
,,,.

We have so many admins sigh! Its military discussion forum yet not much interest.
I thank Rakesh and Suraj for being active here.

TSP has moved 2 div worth of troops to Ladakh area. TSP does not have 2 div to spare. Plus moving them to mountainous region near Ladakh, 1000 km away from Punjab, Sindh basically rules them out from any India-tsp war in the plaines. So why would they do it, because this is where the real offensive war is going to be fought (and China has waited for TSP forces to move in as per the plan), rest of the places it will be defensive. China has also moved additional 10k force in the same region. The small silver of Indian land between Aksai chin and Gilgit region is the objective.
Anybody knows how this pincer movement in theory can develop? What is the axis. We have enough forces in the region, and perhaps we can incircle them by advancing North from Neelum valley. Perhaps our hand has been forced and maybe in 2020 we may either gain Balistan or on the opposite end -end up loosing some of our own land.
Unless this is feint for movement in Sikkim and AP.

Post those maps inline so people understand.

Atleast the lurkers.

[fanne]

sure, and I think that will be one of the best ways to counteract it
1. I will take the axis going up POK (avoid Lahore this time) with the intent to keep land. We have a silver of plain land (later to be populated with Indian population). We will meet the pakis finest here, trying to attack the chicken neck in JK, if we defeat them (and we can), all threats from TSP disappear. We can take that front, all in plain all the way upto afg/china border border. Very audacious and risky, but that bottles up all TSP forces in Giligit/Balistan. The objective of taking away land south of Siachin goes away. (Btw this is a stupid plan, if I knew the right one I would never write it here)
2. Chase g219 in HP border, that area is away from any serious SHAAF threat, our IAF can make a difference. AT 100 KM we have G219, capture some 100 KM of it. SHLAA in Aksai chin is bottled up, plus Tibet is divided into two.

[Sanju]

Also, what does TSP stand for? I know it refers to our friends in the west.

Terrorist State of Pakistan

[chola]

Also, what does TSP stand for? I know it refers to our friends in the west.

The Terrorist State of Pakistan. Also TFTA. We are SDRE onlee.

Lizard is our term for the PRC. Not dragon.

[Sanju]

Chola ji, now Singh saar will ask what is TFTA and SDRE? )

[fanne]

RS ji no Sir please, me a humble excel welder.
I meant south of Siachin only. Our JK and Ladhakh boundary goes east to west and then North of Kargil it starts going up North. Their objective is to flatten everything above that boundary and capture it (talk of Leh under threat then may not be so unfounded) so that the boundary remains east to west in almost a straight line till it touches chinese boundary. See attached map (in process of finding better maps that gives the same info.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_o ... or_map.svg
https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vect ... 1325455205

[ramana]

sure, and I think that will be one of the best ways to counteract it
1. I will take the axis going up POK (avoid Lahore this time) with the intent to keep land. We have a silver of plain land (later to be populated with Indian population). We will meet the pakis finest here, trying to attack the chicken neck in JK, if we defeat them (and we can), all threats from TSP disappear. We can take that front, all in plain all the way upto afg/china border border. Very audacious and risky, but that bottles up all TSP forces in Giligit/Balistan. The objective of taking away land south of Siachin goes away. (Btw this is a stupid plan, if I knew the right one I would never write it here)
2. Chase g219 in HP border, that area is away from any serious SHAAF threat, our IAF can make a difference. AT 100 KM we have G219, capture some 100 KM of it. SHLAA in Aksai chin is bottled up, plus Tibet is divided into two.

Long ago Rohit Vats had analyzed that POK is the key to bottle up Jihad-e-Fistula in G-B.

I would also launch across Thar to liberate Balochistan. They need a replicate of two prong widely separated attack that puts them out of misery.

[nachiket]

Also, what does TSP stand for? I know it refers to our friends in the west.

This link might be helpful if you come across unfamiliar abbreviations and acronyms unique to BRF: https://sites.google.com/site/brfdictionary/Home

The dictionary hasn't been updated in a long time so some new ones might be missing. But still it contains most of the good ones.

e.g.: TFTA SDRE

Why are so many words misspelled (or) a Guide to Pronunciation

[ramana]

Map of J&K


Terrain map link:
https://www.mapsofindia.com/maps/ladakh ... sical.html

[Rs_singh]

Admiral,

Do you foresee use of TNWs in the grab of non state actor or some such nonsense if those stated objectives were close to being met? “Use it or lose it”?

[Rs_singh]

SDRE, TFTA, TSP and lizard? You guys...

Thanks for dictionary! Hilarious.

[Raveen]

The porkis will be taken out of the battle just as soon as they join in - kya chahiye hai, Aksai Chin, yaan Punjab and Sind? You get to pick one, not both if you are porki. They can posture all they want, they can't sustain anything other than a whimper when papa slaps them where they aren't looking.

[Anoop]

We only stand to lose from this delay because defensive troops can only remain on alert for so long, after that complacency sets in. Attacking troops don’t have this dilemma.

The experience of Op Parakram would suggest the exact opposite.

Coming back to the main thrust of your argument viz. the Chinese need to initiate a short, sharp localized conflict, my question is - why? Going by reports, they have built infrastructure (that may or may not be manned) on what is now disputed territory both in Galwan Valley and on Fingers 5-8 at Pangong Tso. The structures have been deliberately made visible to satellites to send a message to the Indian public e.g. the Chinese map outline. This has only increased media scrutiny of the lack of Indian response, goaded by some channels, anchors and guests. All of these have been made possible because the border agreement on non-use of firearms has held back Indian retaliation against these buildups.

What would China hope to get by initiating a shooting war that it already hasn't?

[Raveen]

CCP was told that the raid to avenge the death of the CO was a decision taken by the junior officers in the heat of the battle.

It seems that the CCP wanted a top IA general removed and IA resisted

You ass-u-me, no one knows what was said

[ramana]

Admiral,

Do you foresee use of TNWs in the grab of non state actor or some such nonsense if those stated objectives were close to being met? “Use it or lose it”?

That's a different threshold and will deal with it when it happens.