India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 16 Jun 2020 21:58

Galwan river flows into Shyok on our side of the LAC. If Chinese have indeed fallen into the water, it is a matter of time before we fish out bodies from our area, right?

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jun 2020 22:02

Right now Karnad is saying the same fact,why with sat info for a long time did we not realise what was happening? We got caught napping,played to their gameplan relying on diplomatic eunuchs
to resolve situs which are part of their grand deception,which year by year results in a steady loss of Indian territory.
.

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:03

rkirankr wrote:Sudhir Chaudhury : Around 20 Indian soldiers killed and similar number of chinese killed

https://twitter.com/ZeeNews/status/1272920627809144832

That’s the key part, if the casualties were proportional & this was some type of itchy trigger situation (Or a landslide), then I don’t see this escalating.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 16 Jun 2020 22:04

yensoy wrote:Galwan river flows into Shyok on our side of the LAC. If Chinese have indeed fallen into the water, it is a matter of time before we fish out bodies from our area, right?

will depend on how much water is in the galwan nullah where the soldiers have allegedly fallen ....

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 16 Jun 2020 22:05

IA does not hide its casualties. Indians are not afraid of casualties in case of a war - public can/will handle the truth. So the speculation around numbers should stop. Media is being irresponsible here.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 16 Jun 2020 22:06

The INC has peddled many attacks on modi in the past albeit unsuccessfully but this handling of the chinese aggression by modi/BJP will cut deep within its own voting constituency/base.

The landslide thing is difficult to gasp once you read the claims that indian soldiers have been captured. Why weren't the chinese soldiers captured?

You see a common pattern being played out here. The western media acknowledges the reports/claims coming out of the Pakistani/chinese media but refuses to acknowledge the claims from the indian side; indirectly calling them liars/untrustworthy.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 22:07

This looks like a last minute treacherous attempt by China to change the situation on the ground in the Galvan valley. Dis-engagement had been agreed to but it looks like China attempted to stay put in the Galvan valley on the banks of the Shyok River just across from the Darbuk -Shyok-DBO road, to pose a threat to cut off that road and thereby prevent any Indian offensive from DBO into Aksai Chin. And China has today claimed the entire Galwan valley as their territory!! This is a non-negotiable matter for India IMO. There can be no Chinese threat to the DBO road and so the present Chinese positions are not acceptable. When an Indian patrol went to verify the Chinese withdrawal that is when this clash occurred I guess with China refusing to pull back and the status quo being unacceptable to India. What is unclear is whether after this clash the Chinese have been pushed back or are they still occupying that forward area that they have encroached since early May.

Philip · Post by **Philip** » 16 Jun 2020 22:11

Right now Karnad is saying the same fact,why with sat info for a long time did we not realise what was happening? We got caught napping,played to their gameplan relying on diplomatic eunuchs
to resolve situs which are part of their grand deception,which year by year results in a steady loss of Indian territory.
.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jun 2020 22:11

khan wrote:
rkirankr wrote:Sudhir Chaudhury : Around 20 Indian soldiers killed and similar number of chinese killed

https://twitter.com/ZeeNews/status/1272920627809144832
That’s the key part, if the casualties were proportional & this was some type of itchy trigger situation (Or a landslide), then I don’t see this escalating.

If 20 jawans on both sides because of collapse of ridge is one thing. If 20 jawans had died from physical confrontation then that is another thing. The former would argue against escalation. The second is absolutely grounds for escalation no matter how many chinis died too.

Lohit · Post by **Lohit** » 16 Jun 2020 22:12

nam wrote:
Lohit wrote: Retaliation proportionate or disproportionate need not be done to capture territory.

It can also be done to stuff body bags as well as capture Chinese troops and flood social media with such images.

'62 Chinese inflicted defeat and went back. Presumably we can do the same if we were to decide to go to "war".
that is the problem. We retaliate, kill PLA AND go back... it means we have forgone our claims to Aksi Chin!

We have to stay at a place and build defense to defend that line. And it depends on if PLA agrees to our defense line. If not, it has enough resources to keep fighting a see saw battle, with each side switching lines!

It is our bloody problem that we haven't challenged PLA lines at LAC. By keeping quiet we made it easy for them.

The Chinese came, killed in 62 but did not give up any claims. Reality does not, imo, correspond to logic you are proposing.

It will be foolish to "build a wall" in a high altitude desert. Teach the Chinese a lesson and go back. Let border be resolved after 1000 years.

Once lesson is taught, go take PoK, slash BRI jugular, remind China what happened last time it tempted fate. That would be the rational way, imo to go about reclaiming the strategic narrative.

Recalaimimg 20 square km of high altitude desert imo, is not a win, relatively speaking.

How much territory did we gain in our most resounding victory, 71?

I think an aggressive conflict where we collect 500 dog collars and have 5000 captured PLA soldiers say Sare Jahan Se Acha, broadcast live on DD should be the target.

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:15

chola wrote:
khan wrote: That’s the key part, if the casualties were proportional & this was some type of itchy trigger situation (Or a landslide), then I don’t see this escalating.
If 20 jawans on both sides because of collapse of ridge is one thing. If 20 jawans had died from physical confrontation then that is another thing. The former would argue against escalation. The second is absolutely grounds for escalation no matter how many chinis died too.

What if India started the escalation? What if after the agreement was made to withdraw, the order was given to make the Chinese withdraw “by all means necessary”? What if this was done as ordered & there are (say) 50 dead Chinese to 20 IA casualties? I heard some noise to Twitter that artillery was used - the story is still coming out.

I am confident that IA will have conducted themselves well and given as good or better than they received.

Jarita · Post by **Jarita** » 16 Jun 2020 22:16

RajaRudra wrote:I have been lurking here from 2006. It is used to have an almost pointed discussions. Thanks i learned a lot from that discussions.
But this thread is getting to the level of Social Media. Its time to stand behind Govt and Army like a rock and let them take cool decisions.

Time to show solidarity and support with out If's and Butts.

Correct. Differences of opinion with government should not translate into trashing defense forces.

bkswarti · Post by **bkswarti** » 16 Jun 2020 22:22

ToI also reporting 20 soldiers killed.

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 1590710628

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 22:24

ANI
@ANI
·
8m
At least 20 Indian soldiers killed in the violent face-off with China in Galwan valley in Eastern Ladakh. Casualty numbers could rise: Government Sources

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Jun 2020 22:26

It is time someone from GoI talk about what has actually happened.

This silence is causing major rumor mongering. If it was accident, let the nation know.

If the Chinese fired bullets or they were ambushed, let us know.

It is time GoI opens it's mouth.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jun 2020 22:26

khan wrote:
chola wrote:
If 20 jawans on both sides because of collapse of ridge is one thing. If 20 jawans had died from physical confrontation then that is another thing. The former would argue against escalation. The second is absolutely grounds for escalation no matter how many chinis died too.
What if India started the escalation? What if after the agreement was made to withdraw, the order was given to make the Chinese withdraw “by all means necessary”? What if this was done as ordered & there are (say) 50 dead Chinese to 20 IA casualties? I heard some noise to Twitter that artillery was used - the story is still coming out.

I am confident that IA will have conducted themselves well and given as good or better than they received.

It doesn't matter. If IA and PLA are killing each other by hand then we are already in conflict. You have to escalate or prepare for escalation. If either side killed 50 clearing the other what makes you think it will end here?

It is time to get behind the armed forces without doubt. Because it is coming from one side or the other. The IAF is already in the air.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 16 Jun 2020 22:27

There are 2 statements coming in from twitverse
1) Some of our troops have been captured by PLA
2) Mil to Mil talks still on going today
Connecting the dots, we are still negotiating the return of our captured troops - we are unlikely to get any official updates until the negotiations complete/troops released.

Ambar · Post by **Ambar** » 16 Jun 2020 22:27

War is as much won through perception as it is on the ground. Dictatorships and pseudo-democracies with total control on media like in China and Pakistan are at an advantage because there is just one, unified, single stream of report that comes out. Here we are combing through twitter and wondering if our casualties are 3 or 30, and if we believe either numbers then its entirely believable that we inflicted casualties on the chinese side too. However while we are trashing our government, our bureaucracy and even our army, the Chinese on the other hand issue a glossy statement with no mention of their casualties, call for peace or whatever there by fully covering up their losses and letting self-flagellating Indians drum up our losses.

stephen · Post by **stephen** » 16 Jun 2020 22:29

Maybe this is the best time to see how the new China reacts when they start losing men in battle, does it come as a shock to them that a country that they feel is inferior to them has pushed back, that their shock and awe videos and shining equipment does not cause their enemy to just give up. That they actually have to fight it out this time and die in desolate land far far away from their home, how do their citizens react and how do their leaders decide the next step. A lot of countries will be watching these clashes and taking lessons on how to deal with the hans.

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Jun 2020 22:29

War is won by being prepared for it. Having a steady supply of weapons. And Technology.

Everything else is secondary.

Rishi_Tri · Post by **Rishi_Tri** » 16 Jun 2020 22:31

Casualties (numbers from Republic TV):

----
Indian casualties - 20. Indian CO died.
Chinese casualties - 40+ . Chinese CO also dead.
-----

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:31

This is what Nitin is saying:

Bad day for India. And I am afraid the full extent of the clash is yet to be known. Once again it is proven that China cannot be trusted. After agreeing to disengage, Chinese troops came back into Indian territory leading to the clash resulting in a bloody night

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 30944?s=21

Think this might be Xi not wanting to lose face. If GOI is calling for de-escalation, it must mean they were pushed back.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 22:32

ANI
@ANI
·
12m
Indian intercepts reveal that Chinese side suffered 43 casualties including dead and seriously injured in face-off in the Galwan valley: Sources confirm to ANI

williams · Post by **williams** » 16 Jun 2020 22:32

Indian intercepts reveal that Chinese side suffered 43 casualties including dead and seriously injured in a face-off in the Galwan valley, says ANI quoting sources

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:34

China's Vice Foreign Minister Luo Zhaohui and Indian Ambassador to China Vikram Misri meet in Beijing, China says it has lodged a protest with India over what transpired on June 15.

Also they are sounding like Pakistani’s now. https://twitter.com/ananthkrishnan/stat ... 94721?s=21

AshishA · Post by **AshishA** » 16 Jun 2020 22:34

Has anyone seen how the chinese are reacting on their social media like weibo?

CCP is already in a precarious situation both domestically and internationally. So we also need to prepare for further psyops that will be unleashed if they want to do some mischief at the border post this incident.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 22:35

Chinese foreign ministry called the Indian ambassador in Beijing and lodged a protest with him. So it looks like they did suffer a bloody nose as well.

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:36

I think this might have been the calibrated escalation everyone was waiting for. In the old days, IA would have allowed the Chinese to pitch camps, make tea and so on while negotiations happened - but this time something different happened.

It is now upto the Chinese to respond, doesn’t sound like they want to escalate - but you never know with them.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jun 2020 22:38

Edited.

SaiK · Post by **SaiK** » 16 Jun 2020 22:39

against china, bump the initial escalation numbers and fake it like they only can do. say 200 people are affected, and let international reaction sink in.. rest is calibration, and bloody nose. we can't lose oppty. for chankian media games. vulnerable china must pay 360*

fanne · Post by **fanne** » 16 Jun 2020 22:40

chola wrote:
The reports said no fire so these casualties seem pretty certain to be killed by hand or fall. Your scenario doesn't happen until we escalate but if there are prisoners and we are negotiating a release like we did for Abhi then that escalation never comes.

I have the same feeling I had after 26/27. The other shoe never dropped then even losing so many in the Budgam Mi-17. I felt sick waiting then. I hope it doesn't turn out the same way. I need to hear more from the IAF.

This is at best trolling.....

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 16 Jun 2020 22:43

At least 20 Indian soldiers killed in violent face-off with China in Galwan valley in Eastern Ladakh: Report

At least 20 Indian soldiers killed in the violent face-off with China in Galwan valley in Eastern Ladakh. Casualty numbers could rise: Government Sources were quoted as saying by news agency ANI.

Citing sources, PTI pegged the casualty count at 10. "At least 10 Indian Army personnel killed in a violent face-off in Ladakh's Galwan Valley," PTI reported citing sources. "No exact numbers but the Chinese side also suffered casualties in Ladakh face-off," government officials confirmed.

Indian intercepts reveal that Chinese side suffered 43 casualties including dead and seriously injured in a face-off in the Galwan valley.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jun 2020 22:44

fanne wrote:
chola wrote:
The reports said no fire so these casualties seem pretty certain to be killed by hand or fall. Your scenario doesn't happen until we escalate but if there are prisoners and we are negotiating a release like we did for Abhi then that escalation never comes.

I have the same feeling I had after 26/27. The other shoe never dropped then even losing so many in the Budgam Mi-17. I felt sick waiting then. I hope it doesn't turn out the same way. I need to hear more from the IAF.

This is at best trolling.....

Trolling? Forget it. I'll erase the post and get out of this thread before I go crazy.

nam · Post by **nam** » 16 Jun 2020 22:44

We still don't know what caused the causalities. No official word yet.

If GoI doesn't want escalation, then it can announce it was two armies caught up the heat of the moment. And India wouldn't like to escalate.

If it was an ambush, let the country know, so that we can retaliate.

khan · Post by **khan** » 16 Jun 2020 22:44

Another interesting tweet:

ICYMI: Seems Indian army was recently given "emergency powers..without looking towards Delhi," to "assert its military strength at the field level till it reaches an honorable understanding with China." Goal was to demonstrate strength on the ground to bring China to the table.

https://twitter.com/rohan_mukh/status/1 ... 21376?s=21

I think this aggressor here might have been IA (and they might have killed more Chinese than lost their own people) - which is really good, especially if you are on the other side.

chola · Post by **chola** » 16 Jun 2020 22:44

Edited.

nvishal · Post by **nvishal** » 16 Jun 2020 22:47

ldev wrote:Chinese foreign ministry called the Indian ambassador in Beijing and lodged a protest with him. So it looks like they did suffer a bloody nose as well.

Typical scumbag behavior like the Pakistanis. A attacks B and then he immediately runs to the police station to lodge an FIR.

Jay · Post by **Jay** » 16 Jun 2020 22:48

ldev wrote:Chinese foreign ministry called the Indian ambassador in Beijing and lodged a protest with him. So it looks like they did suffer a bloody nose as well.

I hope they suffered a bloody nose, but this could also be about putting us on the defensive by placing the blame on us.

ldev · Post by **ldev** » 16 Jun 2020 22:51

khan wrote:Another interesting tweet:

ICYMI: Seems Indian army was recently given "emergency powers..without looking towards Delhi," to "assert its military strength at the field level till it reaches an honorable understanding with China." Goal was to demonstrate strength on the ground to bring China to the table.
https://twitter.com/rohan_mukh/status/1 ... 21376?s=21

I think this aggressor here might have been IA (and they might have killed more Chinese than lost their own people) - which is really good, especially if you are on the other side.

Speculative but possible, that IA was told to "enforce" the agreement and push the PLA out of the Galwan valley resulting in this clash. If they have indeed been pushed out and India has got control, then this clash has in fact been a success. But let us wait for confirmation and further news.

stephen · Post by **stephen** » 16 Jun 2020 22:54

chola wrote:Edited.

It does not matter how they died, but they died fighting with an enemy they thought would just roll over like the others, so unless the CCP decides that these men died while going for a swim in the cold lake, there is going to be a reaction from their people, so their leadership will now have to think of how to take the next step, it is important to study this decision making process so that we have a glimpse of their way of thinking, however small it may be.