India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 07:37

Raveen wrote:I assure you, the US either covertly or overtly will gladly back us in a war against the Han. Based on the ammo, intelligence, and satellite imagery they're sharing now, plus the three CBGs, I think it'll be a little overt and a lot covertly.



1) The 3 CBGs, I very much doubt they started as part of a response to a Chinese move in Ladakh. I think they are more of a coincidence. And, by extension, ill-prepared to really intervene - by that I mean actually launch a strike, I just do not see that happening. There are plenty in the US that have made plenty of noise for some time now to launch a missile attack on just one of the artificial islands built by the Chinese. I have not come across any response to such demands from the USN. For any nation placing their kids in harm's way is extremely serious stuff. I just do not see that happening.

China: They have pushed every button to displease everyone. ................... And, no one has done anything. Zilch. So, what China has always bet on is that other nations will analyze, analyze, analyze and fall asleep, but, never start anything because, for one, they are not willing to pay a price that such wars impose on societies.

Secondly, these nations will not get together to beat on China - every nation talks of getting together and never have and never will. And, China will try to be below that get-together line. Frankly, China is doing a very good job at that

2) Next, what does India need? Bodies - no. Military hardware - it is perhaps between more-than-likely to maybe, but certainly not a desperate situation. Support - perhaps, but where and in what form? Pompeo making statement ........ who even in the SD cares? Heck, it was Obama (remember him?) that started the pivot to the "Indo"-Pacific. And we are tomtoming what Pompeo says? And, taking it to heart? Beware

A little over 2 years USPACOM became ........... tada (drum rolls please) INDOPACOM. Think about it: the US actually dropped "US" and replaced it with "INDO" - which is not even an acronym!!!! :). And, "Indo" is Greek!!!!!!!!!! No less a person than Gen. Mattis did the honors. :eek:




3) Finally, I happen to think the problem is somewhere in New Delhi. (I find it very strange that 20 Indians died, many got injured. These IA kids disobeyed (if I can believe reports) orders and now their spontaneous actions have become a befitting reply? NO politician should lay such a claim on their actions.)

Now that talks have commenced .......... give a befitting reply to Xi, please. A real one that XI will remember in his prison cell)

4) Will wait to see what the PM has to say today

5) I am not expecting much.

Then of course, I expect throwing China into the medieval times.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 07:52

Rao Saheb...

Nicely put...

Some of our posters need to understand the world of realpolitik..

We are alone in this...Our actions have to be independent of any external player...

If that means that it is going to be a long game - so be it...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby samirdiw » 30 Jun 2020 07:55

ks_sachin wrote:
What makes you think that Taiwan will declare freedom or that Americans will come in or that other countries will join in India’s favour?


As mentioned in different articles China will look to a short war. Shooting first gives it the advantage as it will take India some time to recover lost territory. By putting its opponent at a disadvantage it can influence a nation and its leadership with less willpower than a fight till the last inch is reclaimed to come to the negotiation table or ceasefire with a new line drawn.

China doesnt want a long drawn out war as it doesnt want to handle multiple fronts . The purpose of a short war is to teach the others what their fate will be i.e. "Kill the chicken to scare the monkey". A longer war doesn't achieve this as with every additional week the aura gets chipped away. A long stalemate is a disaster. If China wants a short war with its enemy on the back foot shouldn't we try to achieve exactly the opposite?

Even if China's MIC is more advanced a longer war should kick start on our side too efforts to ramping up our weaponry. In 2020 there is no reason why we can't. When left with no option this country will do wonders what decades of meandering along could not achieve. So we fight not depending on others but on our own will to make this expensive for a rich country where people have not had hardships for long to handle such kind of pain. This is not USA vs Iraq where USA can fight from far away and nobody notices.

The Taiwan involvement is extra which will bring down China sooner. In a short war Taiwan will not declare freedom but the longer the war goes on the higher the probability. If Taiwan declares freedom, China will have no option but to attack it and then Americans will be forced into this to support Taiwan. Even in world war 2 the americans had to have the confidence for some time that the Chinese could stand up to the Japanese from its hinterlands before it started to support it weaponry. Then Pearl Harbour happened and reasons were no longer needed. Once America joins in favor of Taiwan there will be a lot more vultures waiting to take their pound of flesh from China but all this will need India to hang in there till kingdom come. Even if Taiwan doesn't declare the long drawn out war will change India's focus on defense for ever and future generations will be the beneficiary of this.

Agreed this is a gamble but its the one path that can cut Chinese to size for decades if not longer. All standard paths don't take us there.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 30 Jun 2020 08:23

ks_sachin wrote:Rao Saheb...

Nicely put...

Some of our posters need to understand the world of realpolitik..

We are alone in this...Our actions have to be independent of any external player...

If that means that it is going to be a long game - so be it...


100% agreed. This a fight that we have to fight alone. Neither the CBGTF in the Pacific was mobilized as a response to the Ladakh incident, nor does it have the range to interdict from there. Besides, GOI does not require interdiction at this stage and has not asked for it. Each nation is doing what is in its interests driven by their own compulsions and needs. In this time, there appears to be a convergence of interests on the CCP. As for ammo, I’m not sure what ammo they are talking about, perhaps arty shells. US involvement in this will be limited to ISR only. CBG are there to boost confidence in Japan, ROK and Taiwan. Also, Taiwan declaring independence is not only improbable but likely impossible until the CCP is in power.

THAAD batteries in India? :roll: :roll: Please guys. Take a look at what THAAD is intended for and where it is deployed. I’ll leave you with two thoughts:

1. DPRK does not need BMs to hit ROK. These BMs are intended for another target.
2. The best probability of intercept is in the boost phase of a missile.
3. I know I said 2 but I’ll leave you with 3. There was a report a while back that another airborne asset had picked up a DPRK launch seconds after liftoff.

You can put together the dots.

Finally, all these reports about “our friends” coming to the rescue and expediting deliveries is total hogwash. They are fulfilling terms of a contract and are using this to buy public goodwill. The quantity delivered is too little to matter and too late to be integrated into the war effort (if there is one). As a precedence, In 65 I believe the IAF has mig21s (since 63) but did not use them because these were too new and too little to matter at that point.
Finally, all these purchases and so called expedited deliveries only make us look weak, make our defense institutions look incapable of waging war and should always always serve as a wake up call to our own MIC. I’ve been seeing this since Kargil, every time there is a crisis, there is a big ticket fancy import under “emergency powers or some other nonsense” instead of doubling down on own MIC.
If you want to look like a mature nation state which is willing to be taken seriously, invest heavily in your own MIC. Arjun tank is a beautiful beast for those that have seen it. For 20 years it’s been languishing with double digit numbers and low customer confidence. Tejas, LCH, ALH, the list goes on and on and on. I digress, Separate rant for a different thread. Speaking of LCH, if memory serves right, it was born out of the Kargil review committee specifically for CAS at high altitude. Such as the one we are in right now. 20 yrs gone and nothing to show for it. :oops: :oops: :oops:

Every time we ask too much from our best. And every time we patronize them and their families. It started with lack of snow boots, winter kit, arty shells, mig21s, subs and ends with fictionalized accounts of unarmed men killing 12 enemies barehanded. Spare me the BS. This is exactly the kind of nonsense we should not fall for. For it takes away from true introspection and learning.

A certain 3 letter acronym comes to mind. The one that starts with an I and ends appropriately with an AS(S).
Last edited by Rs_singh on 30 Jun 2020 08:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby skumar » 30 Jun 2020 08:26



De-addiction is indeed very difficult but it is necessary. If one good thing comes out of this crisis, I hope it is this.

Couple of comments on the article -

"its military is inefficient, underequipped, and dogged by procurement corruption scandals"
Very presumptuous. it was definitely dogged by scandals but to call it inefficient or underequipped displays ignorance.

"Some of these steps are appropriate, if targeted carefully. India should aspire to make more of its own electronics and drug ingredients and would be more secure if it could build 5G telecoms networks without Chinese parts."

Reliance is developing its own 5G technology, not one Chinese component will be used. India can do it.

"It also needs to be wary of the threat of Chinese future economic coercion if relations between the two powers worsen"

The situation is similar to "if you owe the bank a crore, they have you by the b...., if you owe them 10,000 cr, you have them by the b...."

India has a $60B trade deficit with China, which is almost 12% of China's trade surplus, the biggest outside the US/EU.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 08:29

A couple of three observations:

1) I resisted this for the past 8 or so hours. Shri. Pravin Sawhney wrote an article. I read it this AM (US time) and decided it was not worth posting. Now, it looks like someone has changed the tile. :rotfl: / Perhaps not getting enough hits? Dunno. Pity the guy and the site.

However, the author uses a very intellectual word in the tile: Algorithm (war). I am glad someone at his organization knows how to spell

Since the site has not added/changed content - other than the title I will not link it here. Not worth reading - an KLPD article (sorry to revive such an acronym)



OK, to more serious topics (Shekas pyare told us there is a need for a comic break).

2) The US Services NEVER move troops without simulations. Never. It does not happen.

American forces are expeditionary. It is not like moving troops from Detroit to Chicago. So, if the US wants to move 3 carriers, they plan it out ........... way ahead of time. Way ahead. It s not happening because a politician wants it to happen. It is not happening if the Commander wants it to happen in peacetime scenarios. It does not happen.

Each carrier has around 5000 mouths to feed. 3 carriers: 15,000 mouths.

Try planning to feed your family for a week. Try planning to feed yourself for a week.

These are extremely complex operations. And, yes the US has a command for it. All that command does is plan such events across the globe.

Try it out.

3) IF India wants help from any of these carriers they can respond. The response is not an issue. So, what is? It is the firmness of the singular person requesting help. How much can the US rely on the firmness of that person? Moving assets is easy. Financial costs are easy. Political costs could be bearable - politics is politics. But, to bear military pressure for nothing is unacceptable.

So, will any of these carriers come to "help"? Will find out today at 4 PM IST
Last edited by NRao on 30 Jun 2020 08:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 30 Jun 2020 08:34

NRao wrote:A couple of three observations:


However, the author uses a very intellectual word in the tile: Algorithm (war). I am glad someone at his organization knows how to spell



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I’m quickly learning that Indian media tries to cover up lack of substance and subject matter knowledge by using cryptic English that I’ve never seen used anywhere else in the world, specially where English is a first language. As some Air Marshall said the other day when asked about the difference between intrusion and transgression - “nothing but semantic calisthenics”. So true and apt.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 30 Jun 2020 08:53

old timers, how is start of action declared by India ? The PM comes on TV pr radio and says "maine hamari sena ko aadhesh diya hai ....." or it is just a press release or it is reported afterfact. Dont remember anything explicit form the PM during Kargil days and wasnt there during 1971

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 30 Jun 2020 09:07

ks_sachin wrote:
Raveen wrote:I assure you, the US either covertly or overtly will gladly back us in a war against the Han. Based on the ammo, intelligence, and satellite imagery they're sharing now, plus the three CBGs, I think it'll be a little overt and a lot covertly.

Good luck planning with such imponderables...

Source for ammo and int input or is that based on news papers?


Newspapers, same ones suggesting France and Isreal are pitching in

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 09:08

suryag wrote:old timers, how is start of action declared by India ? The PM comes on TV pr radio and says "maine hamari sena ko aadhesh diya hai ....." or it is just a press release or it is reported afterfact. Dont remember anything explicit form the PM during Kargil days and wasnt there during 1971

Definitely won't be telegraphed a day earlier stating "PM to address the nation tomorrow" :).

But since I am no old timer, would wait for some real ones to share their experience.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 09:09

Raveen wrote:I assure you, the US either covertly or overtly will gladly back us in a war against the Han. Based on the ammo, intelligence, and satellite imagery they're sharing now, plus the three CBGs, I think it'll be a little overt and a lot covertly.

Of course they would. It is in their interest to do so, isn't it? But one must also consider the "why" aspect before making grand plans and assumptions..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 09:09

Larry Walker wrote:https://twitter.com/joe_sameer/status/1277097272245841920?s=19
Unconfirmed, yet probable. PLAAF J-11 and J-10s induct into PAF fields at RYK & Sukkur. If true, the aim will be to tie down IAF WAC resources in the plains far away from the skies over Ladakh. PLAAF IL-78 refuellers also staging through Skardu from Hotan 1/2
Presence of IL-78s indicates availability of Su-30MKKs in the zone. These will be in addition to J-11s at Nygari, which have Ops limitations due altitude of the airfield. Su-30MKKs likely to be present from Shakagam side & abeam DBO, while the J-11s patrol southern Aksai Chin 2/2

This account appears to be an aviation bluff posting relevant snippets - so not sure how much truth to this.

He is ex-IAF, so I would take his words a bit seriously.

However, if they are deploying tankers to pakistan, that means they'll run short within their own airspace. Like us, they too don't have a large tanker fleet, and deploying some to pakistan would stretch it even further. So interesting strategy they have adopted, if true.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 30 Jun 2020 09:19

America will back anyone who wars with its enemies! Please understand that we sent enough millions to fight the white man's world wars and other campaigns too, to send our troops to fight wars in our interests alone.The IPKF adventure in SL was an almighty cock-up by the MEA and buffoon Bhandari, that taught us a signal lesson.

Against China,we will fight the war ourselves.Friends from both east and west will supply us with arms ( helping their defence OEMs) to assist us in hopefully stopping the Chin juggernaut on its global conquest just as the Soviets stopped Hitler. America after spending trillions in futile wars against Islamist jihadis,has run out of both steam and money.They have little heart in fighting in a foreign land on the ground.

While the Chin incursion if accurate,poses India and the govt. with a problem of honour,the need to reclaim our territory ,there are other options both on land and at sea where we can repay the compliment to the yellow peril in greater measure. We must however resist the temptation to go into battle unprepared,without considering the huge logistic chain needed to fuel the forces for at least a 3 month campaign.
Regarding urgent milware,operationalising S-400s will take time even if the missiles arrive tomorrow.It is a hugely sophisticated system designed to counter several types of threats using different varieties of missiles.More relevant are as I said some time ago,Israeli battlefield anti-missile/ mortar systems that are operational,countering the missiles,mortars,etc. that the Hiz. have been using. These in the interim until the S-400s arrive should be sufficient for dealing with the current force levels of the PLA. With the large build up of Chin armour and aircraft,the Ru ATGMs and MANPADS will be very welcome. If you remember well,our air losses during the Kargil war were mainly due to MANPADS.Helicopters will be particularly vulnerable.The LCH has been flying for quite some time now,I am at a loss to understand why it has not seen faster development and production. Has the Apache buy,an expensive one, robbed it of funds or what? The LCH is v.low hanging fruit amongst the various desi programmes under development. As mentioned in the IAF td.,helicopters and aircraft will be crucial in winning the land war.A list of options are in that post.One type we could try and lease from the US are Hawkeye AEW aircraft which would greatly assist the air campaign,plus acquiring a small number of MIG-31Ks to deal with their AWACS.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 30 Jun 2020 09:24

arshyam wrote:[/quote]
He is ex-IAF, so I would take his words a bit seriously.

However, if they are deploying tankers to pakistan, that means they'll run short within their own airspace. Like us, they too don't have a large tanker fleet, and deploying some to pakistan would stretch it even further. So interesting strategy they have adopted, if true.


I would respect the views of an Ex IAF officer when it comes to our own capabilities, but not an unverified report like this, which is not collaborated. I've unfortunately seen plenty of former officers fighting their own `parallel universe' war on Whatsapp. If at all it is true, no way it would be publicised in this manner.
If Pakistan allows its bases to be used against India, even if its not their own aircraft, it would be an act of war by Pakistan and we would be
free to retaliate. Not sure if Pakistan is ready for that. No indication that they have mobilised. Their usual cross border activity, terrorism, stone pelting etc is at an all time low.
Last edited by Deans on 30 Jun 2020 09:25, edited 1 time in total.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 09:26

Rs_singh wrote:
NRao wrote:A couple of three observations:


However, the author uses a very intellectual word in the tile: Algorithm (war). I am glad someone at his organization knows how to spell



:rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

I’m quickly learning that Indian media tries to cover up lack of substance and subject matter knowledge by using cryptic English that I’ve never seen used anywhere else in the world, specially where English is a first language. As some Air Marshall said the other day when asked about the difference between intrusion and transgression - “nothing but semantic calisthenics”. So true and apt.

Sirji I was a journalist in a previous life. Those days print editors still wrung our ears if we wrote something that was not objective or to lofty in words.
We used to have a saying for the television media that was spreading... CONSTIPATION OF THOUGHT AND A DIARRHOEA OF WORDS!!!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 30 Jun 2020 09:30

NRao wrote:Why a Trade War With China Is a Bad Idea for India

New Delhi risks responding to a deadly border skirmish by making its economy more insular. Few things would benefit Beijing more.

BY JAMES CRABTREE | JUNE 29, 2020, 2:50 PM

Relations between the United States and China have sunk to such lows in recent years that it is now easy enough to imagine the two nations eventually going to war. Yet this month’s deadly Himalayan skirmishes suggest China is far likelier to usher in a new era of military conflict with its neighbor India.

Both nations now face dilemmas as they seek to avoid that prospect, after their monthlong standoff degenerated into a bloody fracas in mid-June, leaving 20 Indian soldiers dead alongside an unknown number of Chinese. Deescalating the crisis will be hard enough. More important will be how each side rethinks the countries’ long-term relationship as strategic competitors. Of the two, India faces tougher challenges: With limited military options, Prime Minister Narendra Modi is facing growing pressure to boycott Chinese goods as part of a more general turn toward self-reliance and protectionism—a strategy that would be precisely the wrong way to tackle the long-term threat of a rising China.
I dont know why but this feels like an article that the Chinese govt would have commissioned. The big elephant in the room is the prospect of a shooting war between China and India, and the author neatly side-steps it and talks about a trade war(!) as his primary concern. Very puzzling. Which two nations ever had a heathy trade happening while their armies fought and bombed each other- a point that this author is missing. The article's topic and context in the current scenario where several soldiers were killed, does not make sense. Maybe China is getting spooked with the prospect of a trade war...but if they are, they've read India wrong. No way trade will remain unchanged with a shooting war going on. People in Kolkata are publicly breaking Chinese TVs and burning stuff :lol: . I looked up the author- he is a Brit, and a Prof in Singapore, with the usual hotshot credentials from Hahvud and London Sch. Econ.
Last edited by SriKumar on 30 Jun 2020 09:33, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 09:32

Philip wrote:America will back anyone who wars with its enemies! Please understand that we sent enough millions to fight the white man's world wars and other campaigns too, to send our troops to fight wars in our interests alone.The IPKF adventure in SL was an almighty cock-up by the MEA and buffoon Bhandari, that taught us a signal lesson.

Against China,we will fight the war ourselves.Friends from both east and west will supply us with arms ( helping their defence OEMs) to assist us in hopefully stopping the Chin juggernaut on its global conquest just as the Soviets stopped Hitler. America after spending trillions in futile wars against Islamist jihadis,has run out of both steam and money.They have little heart in fighting in a foreign land on the ground.

While the Chin incursion if accurate,poses India and the govt. with a problem of honour,the need to reclaim our territory ,there are other options both on land and at sea where we can repay the compliment to the yellow peril in greater measure. We must however resist the temptation to go into battle unprepared,without considering the huge logistic chain needed to fuel the forces for at least a 3 month campaign.
Regarding urgent milware,operationalising S-400s will take time even if the missiles arrive tomorrow.It is a hugely sophisticated system designed to counter several types of threats using different varieties of missiles.More relevant are as I said some time ago,Israeli battlefield anti-missile/ mortar systems that are operational,countering the missiles,mortars,etc. that the Hiz. have been using. These in the interim until the S-400s arrive should be sufficient for dealing with the current force levels of the PLA. With the large build up of Chin armour and aircraft,the Ru ATGMs and MANPADS will be very welcome. If you remember well,our air losses during the Kargil war were mainly due to MANPADS.Helicopters will be particularly vulnerable.The LCH has been flying for quite some time now,I am at a loss to understand why it has not seen faster development and production. Has the Apache buy,an expensive one, robbed it of funds or what? The LCH is v.low hanging fruit amongst the various desi programmes under development. As mentioned in the IAF td.,helicopters and aircraft will be crucial in winning the land war.A list of options are in that post.One type we could try and lease from the US are Hawkeye AEW aircraft which would greatly assist the air campaign,plus acquiring a small number of MIG-31Ks to deal with their AWACS.

Admiral Filipov you should be in the MoD.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 30 Jun 2020 09:34

arshyam wrote:
suryag wrote:old timers, how is start of action declared by India ? The PM comes on TV pr radio and says "maine hamari sena ko aadhesh diya hai ....." or it is just a press release or it is reported afterfact. Dont remember anything explicit form the PM during Kargil days and wasnt there during 1971

Definitely won't be telegraphed a day earlier stating "PM to address the nation tomorrow" :).

But since I am no old timer, would wait for some real ones to share their experience.


There will not be any formal declaration. If the action takes place you will probably hear in the news media and then some junior MEA Babu will read out a statement in English. In 71 IG made a statement on DEC 3 in AIR after Pakis attacked our airfields.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishAcharya » 30 Jun 2020 09:37

skumar wrote:


De-addiction is indeed very difficult but it is necessary. If one good thing comes out of this crisis, I hope it is this.

Couple of comments on the article -

"its military is inefficient, underequipped, and dogged by procurement corruption scandals"
Very presumptuous. it was definitely dogged by scandals but to call it inefficient or underequipped displays ignorance.

"Some of these steps are appropriate, if targeted carefully. India should aspire to make more of its own electronics and drug ingredients and would be more secure if it could build 5G telecoms networks without Chinese parts."

Reliance is developing its own 5G technology, not one Chinese component will be used. India can do it.

"It also needs to be wary of the threat of Chinese future economic coercion if relations between the two powers worsen"

The situation is similar to "if you owe the bank a crore, they have you by the b...., if you owe them 10,000 cr, you have them by the b...."

India has a $60B trade deficit with China, which is almost 12% of China's trade surplus, the biggest outside the US/EU.


Tbh necessity can drive us to innovate. And all the doomsday talk of ditching Chinese maal leading to economic collapse etc etc are just BS.

Ditching Chinese maal will be the best thing that will happen to us. We need to remember, whenever technology was denied to us we just made it on our own within a few years.

From supercomputers to missile tech to space tech. Whenever tech is denied, we just invent it ourselves. So when we decouple from the CCP, our own innovators will definitely step up and deliver.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 09:39

williams wrote:
arshyam wrote:Definitely won't be telegraphed a day earlier stating "PM to address the nation tomorrow" :).

But since I am no old timer, would wait for some real ones to share their experience.


There will not be any formal declaration. If the action takes place you will probably hear in the news media and then some junior MEA Babu will read out a statement in English. In 71 IG made a statement on DEC 3 in AIR after Pakis attacked our airfields.


There has to be a formal declaration but after the fact.

What you are saying is who makes the announcement.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 09:39

Agree with the thrust of your post, but...

Rs_singh wrote:..and ends with fictionalized accounts of unarmed men killing 12 enemies barehanded. Spare me the BS. This is exactly the kind of nonsense we should not fall for.

I assume you have a credible source to justify this choice of words?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 09:45

Deans wrote:
arshyam wrote:[/quote]
He is ex-IAF, so I would take his words a bit seriously.

However, if they are deploying tankers to pakistan, that means they'll run short within their own airspace. Like us, they too don't have a large tanker fleet, and deploying some to pakistan would stretch it even further. So interesting strategy they have adopted, if true.


I would respect the views of an Ex IAF officer when it comes to our own capabilities, but not an unverified report like this, which is not collaborated. I've unfortunately seen plenty of former officers fighting their own `parallel universe' war on Whatsapp. If at all it is true, no way it would be publicised in this manner.
If Pakistan allows its bases to be used against India, even if its not their own aircraft, it would be an act of war by Pakistan and we would be
free to retaliate. Not sure if Pakistan is ready for that. No indication that they have mobilised. Their usual cross border activity, terrorism, stone pelting etc is at an all time low.

Fair enough sir, but that's why I too had qualified my posts with multiple "if" statements :)

Having said that, this is not the first report of PLAAF deployment to PAF controlled air fields, remember that report about J-11(?) at Skardu? I'd rather be wary of such a two front threat than simply dismiss it...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 30 Jun 2020 09:46

arshyam wrote:Agree with the thrust of your post, but...

Rs_singh wrote:..and ends with fictionalized accounts of unarmed men killing 12 enemies barehanded. Spare me the BS. This is exactly the kind of nonsense we should not fall for.

I assume you have a credible source to justify this choice of words?


Source? I’ll do you one better, experience. Second, no one stands around counting who killed what and where when shit Is flying all over.

I’ve no doubt, our men fought valiantly but please, from those that have been in combat, you’re doin a disservice when you spread fictional accounts like this. This works wonders in communist countries of old that used to talk about their men thwarting tank assaults by charging them with bayonets. Reality was those tank assaults were thwarted because of lack of fuel.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby wig » 30 Jun 2020 09:47

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... dup-106423

Enhanced airlift capability key to India’s LAC buildup
exctracts from the above
Airlifting the T-90 was possible due to the payload capacity of C-17. A T-90 weighs about 46 tonnes, which is more than the capacity of the IL-76, which can airlift about 45 tonnes, says an IAF officer. Another six IL-78 midair refueling tankers based at Agra, which are same as IL-76, can also be used in the conventional transport role. The IAF’s workhorse is 104 AN-32 medium lift aircraft.

The Army had three regiments of the older T-72 tanks, which weigh around 40 tonne, deployed in this sector. Many of these tanks, along with BMP-2 mechanised combat vehicles, have been airlifted to Ladakh by IL-76 since 1990s. Given the weight and length of the tractor-trailer, it is not practical to negotiate the high mountain passes, hairpin bends and narrow stretches that lie on the road link from the mainland to Ladakh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby wig » 30 Jun 2020 09:50

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... knd9K.html

T-90 tanks in Galwan Valley after China’s aggressive posturing at LAC -Infantry combat vehicles along with 155mm howitzers have been deployed all along 1597 km long LAC in East Ladakh.
exctracted
Indian Army has deployed six T-90 missile firing tanks and top-of-the-line shoulder fired anti-tank missile systems in the Galwan Valley sector. The senior military commanders from India and China are meeting at Chushul on Tuesday to work out the de-escalation and disengagement process on mutual terms.

The army’s decision to deploy the T-90 Bishma tanks was taken after the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) had beefed up its positions on the river bed with armoured personnel carriers and troop tents. The Indian Army is occupying the dominant heights in the sector within its side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Infantry combat vehicles along with 155mm howitzers have been deployed all along 1597 km long LAC in East Ladakh with two tank regiments deployed in Chushul sector to repel any aggressive plans of the adversary through the Spanggur Gap. While Chinese PLA wants to make a deal on the LAC in this sector as part of withdrawal, the Indian Army is no mood to give an inch as the military aggression came from the Western Theatre Command of China with the intention of redefining the LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 09:52

1) This is NOT India vs. China (as much as Indian click-bait journos would like one to believe)

2) This is Xi vs. the world, and

3) India, as we all type, is the last line of defense




it is as simple as that.

No need to analyze. Just act. Just do it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Kanson » 30 Jun 2020 09:53

Raveen wrote:I assure you, the US either covertly or overtly will gladly back us in a war against the Han. Based on the ammo, intelligence, and satellite imagery they're sharing now, plus the three CBGs, I think it'll be a little overt and a lot covertly.


Three CBGs are for multiple resaon. Extra CBG is for contingencies.

More than ammo & intel sharing. All parties involved are silent. But as we speak they are into action.

Their posturing & deployment (at present) is to foreclose /prevent chinese adventure in these regions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 09:55

wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-deploys-t-90-tanks-in-galwan-valley-after-china-s-aggressive-posturing-at-lac/story-eTMbY40wHoV5w55edknd9K.html

T-90 tanks in Galwan Valley after China’s aggressive posturing at LAC -Infantry combat vehicles along with 155mm howitzers have been deployed all along 1597 km long LAC in East Ladakh.
exctracted
Indian Army has deployed six T-90 missile firing tanks and top-of-the-line shoulder fired anti-tank missile systems in the Galwan Valley sector. The senior military commanders from India and China are meeting at Chushul on Tuesday to work out the de-escalation and disengagement process on mutual terms.

The army’s decision to deploy the T-90 Bishma tanks was taken after the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) had beefed up its positions on the river bed with armoured personnel carriers and troop tents. The Indian Army is occupying the dominant heights in the sector within its side of the Line of Actual Control (LAC).

Infantry combat vehicles along with 155mm howitzers have been deployed all along 1597 km long LAC in East Ladakh with two tank regiments deployed in Chushul sector to repel any aggressive plans of the adversary through the Spanggur Gap. While Chinese PLA wants to make a deal on the LAC in this sector as part of withdrawal, the Indian Army is no mood to give an inch as the military aggression came from the Western Theatre Command of China with the intention of redefining the LAC.


I saw that. And decided not to comment on it. Why? It is my understanding, based on comments from Ex-IA people, that the Galwan region is so narrow that most passes allow between 50-400 people - on each side. The widest allows each side to deploy 400 soldiers. Beyond that the place gets too congested.

Tanks?

Read the first sentence. Elon Musk should send this guy to Mars

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 30 Jun 2020 10:00

For clarity, neither am I suggesting, nor do I want, or expect anything but Indians fighting for India. I do think we'll have a helping hand, not with the actual butt kicking, but there's plenty of other ways, cyber, intelligence, ammo, etc.

I'm all for a marriage of convinience when it serves our purpose
Last edited by Raveen on 30 Jun 2020 10:02, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 10:00

Kanson wrote:
Raveen wrote:I assure you, the US either covertly or overtly will gladly back us in a war against the Han. Based on the ammo, intelligence, and satellite imagery they're sharing now, plus the three CBGs, I think it'll be a little overt and a lot covertly.


Three CBGs are for multiple resaon. Extra CBG is for contingencies.

More than ammo & intel sharing. All parties involved are silent. But as we speak they are into action.

Their posturing & deployment (at present) is to foreclose /prevent chinese adventure in these regions.


What exactly is (singular) the "reason"?

And, what are the 'contingencies'?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 30 Jun 2020 10:05

CBGs are posturing, posturing that suits us, keeps the Hans honest on the east

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jun 2020 10:08

Rs_singh wrote:
arshyam wrote:Agree with the thrust of your post, but...


I assume you have a credible source to justify this choice of words?


Source? I’ll do you one better, experience. Second, no one stands around counting who killed what and where when shit Is flying all over.
So you don't have one, OK.

Rs_singh wrote:I’ve no doubt, our men fought valiantly but please, from those that have been in combat, you’re doin a disservice when you spread fictional accounts like this. This works wonders in communist countries of old that used to talk about their men thwarting tank assaults by charging them with bayonets. Reality was those tank assaults were thwarted because of lack of fuel.
Tank assaults? Bayonets? What are you talking about? When did India claim our troops destroyed tanks using bayonets? Please don't build strawmen - if you don't have a credible source to back up what you said, please just say so, no need to bring in other unrelated items.

At the moment, Sep Gurtej Singh's actions have not been revealed by the Army or GoI officially, and only media reports exist. Fair enough. It takes some time for the official citations to be awarded/publicized. However, those media reports haven't been contradicted either. So what's out there is what stands, for the moment, at least. To call that BS and worse without any basis is an insult to the Sepoy's memory. If you want me to take your word for it on the basis of your service, sure - if you had served in the Indian armed forces and have the intimate knowledge and context about our forces, I'll gladly take it. See my post above w.r.t. a tweet by an ex-IAF veteran. But your posts have sounded like you served in the US armed forces (happy to be corrected if I've got the wrong impression), whose ethos, tactics and service conditions are very different from ours. I have nothing against foreign service personnel (I simply look at it as serving one's own motherland, each one to their own), but do draw the line when such a person shows up and dismisses accounts of valour of own troops.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 10:17

Sure CBGs can posture, that is what they are there for. But, the question is posture WRT to what? IF the answer is WRT to Chinese activities in Ladakh, then the question is who asked them to posture with that in mind.

CBGs are not some toys. The President of the US *relies* on them.

Do you *believe* (I do not expect you to *know*) that the US President *has* tipped his hand?

I would *think* that IF we were to see any one CBG steam into the Arabian Sea, then we can *assume* that the US is serious.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 30 Jun 2020 10:17

arshyam wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:.

Arshyam,

Exactly. There are no sources no either side are they? This is standard IW. For internal consumption. As for citations, find me one citation, leave alone in this incident, from anywhere in the world and any country that claims its troops killed 10,12,20, you pick, EN alone and without a gun. Army citations all over do no give out casualty figures inflicted because it can simply not be ascertained in ground combat, even more so in a close fight. So, I call BS, you are free to believe or not believe up to you.

As for thwarting tank assaults with bayonet charges. I was giving you an example of fictionalized accounts used in communist countries. This particular one is from Mother Russia during Barbarossa, 1942. Many more come to mind from more recent history and closer by. Such as those from our neighbor to the west in 65, claiming they thwarted tank assault on Lahore by laying down on the roads.

As for dying for your country, no trooper is taught to die for their country or motivated by country. They fight for the man next to them and die for the ones they left behind at home. My thoughts, you are free to disagree or believe whatever you want.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VikramS » 30 Jun 2020 10:23

NRao wrote:1) This is NOT India vs. China (as much as Indian click-bait journos would like one to believe)

2) This is Xi vs. the world, and

3) India, as we all type, is the last line of defense




it is as simple as that.

No need to analyze. Just act. Just do it.



Absolutely.

CCP are the 21st century equivalent of the Nazis.

The CCP brainwashing has convinced at least a section of jingos that China is the center of the world and the Chinese are the chosen people who will dominate the world. They were humiliated during the colonial
Period and are now just started reclaiming their divinely destined place in the world

Like the Jews and the Romas were treated as sub-human the CCP drones also believe that their neighbors are inferior race. The cultures of the conquered territories like Tibet it East Turkmenistan has to be subsumed and replace d. Y Han culture and genes.

India is somewhat like Russia in WW-2 right now. She thought that deeper economic ties and access to the markets will allow her to escape the wrath of the Han. However the Han does not recognize the strategic independence. They say the US as the only country standing between them and global domination and anyone with a warm relationship is an enemy who has to be taught a lesson.



So a lot of parallels.

History may not repeat but it certainly rhymes.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby NRao » 30 Jun 2020 10:28

Raveen wrote:CBGs are posturing, posturing that suits us, keeps the Hans honest on the east



Are you aware that the Chinese have called the 3 CBGs a vanity show?

Secondly, are the Chinese moving *any* assets from the their Western Theater Command to the Pacific?





Which is why I would like to see some action, even if it means the cost is rather high (easy for me to say, granted). And, not just take a Finger or a Valley or a Plain. It has to be so bad that they have to consider shutting down their Western Theater Command. Now, IF that is the goal one can see the CBGs participating.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 30 Jun 2020 10:39

arshyam wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:
Source? I’ll do you one better, experience. Second, no one stands around counting who killed what and where when shit Is flying all over.
So you don't have one, OK.

Rs_singh wrote:I’ve no doubt, our men fought valiantly but please, from those that have been in combat, you’re doin a disservice when you spread fictional accounts like this. This works wonders in communist countries of old that used to talk about their men thwarting tank assaults by charging them with bayonets. Reality was those tank assaults were thwarted because of lack of fuel.
Tank assaults? Bayonets? What are you talking about? When did India claim our troops destroyed tanks using bayonets? Please don't build strawmen - if you don't have a credible source to back up what you said, please just say so, no need to bring in other unrelated items.

At the moment, Sep Gurtej Singh's actions have not been revealed by the Army or GoI officially, and only media reports exist. Fair enough. It takes some time for the official citations to be awarded/publicized. However, those media reports haven't been contradicted either. So what's out there is what stands, for the moment, at least. To call that BS and worse without any basis is an insult to the Sepoy's memory. If you want me to take your word for it on the basis of your service, sure - if you had served in the Indian armed forces and have the intimate knowledge and context about our forces, I'll gladly take it. See my post above w.r.t. a tweet by an ex-IAF veteran. But your posts have sounded like you served in the US armed forces (happy to be corrected if I've got the wrong impression), whose ethos, tactics and service conditions are very different from ours. I have nothing against foreign service personnel (I simply look at it as serving one's own motherland, each one to their own), but do draw the line when such a person shows up and dismisses accounts of valour of own troops.


Experience counts....

Think about it man...

In the middle of the night..
There is a melee.
People can not see properly and fall into the river from a narrow areas of engagement.
Being objective here does not mean that we are dissing Sep Gurtej Singh’s actions...
But citations are a collection of fragments of memory from the heat of battle and for every Gurtej there will another one who will not even get a mentioned in dispatches. That is the reality.

The boys did what they had to do and taught the Chinese a lesson - in that they did what they are trained to do and do instinctively i.e. be there for each other. All else is covered by the Fog of engagement.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Kanson » 30 Jun 2020 11:26

Raveen wrote:For clarity, neither am I suggesting, nor do I want, or expect anything but Indians fighting for India. I do think we'll have a helping hand, not with the actual butt kicking, but there's plenty of other ways, cyber, intelligence, ammo, etc.

I'm all for a marriage of convinience when it serves our purpose

See, with US naval assets in the region, chinese will think twice to mount an adventure, say on A & N islands or something else. Their presence and with their specific assistance, will this not reduce the workload of IN, true or not?
Is this not help?

Despite this, there are emerging pictures along with military calculations that China indeed could open a sea front.
If China sees only stalemate at land, it could use sea.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Kanson » 30 Jun 2020 11:28

NRao wrote:[

What exactly is (singular) the "reason"?

And, what are the 'contingencies'?

You know very well sir, what it means.


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