India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

[Dilbu]

Presence of 14 Chinese vehicles and 16 tents to be raised at WMCC meet

New Delhi: India is expected to raise the presence of 14 Chinese vehicles, 16 tents and a shelter structure on the Line of Actual Control when the next edition of the working mechanism for consultation and coordination (WMCC) on India-China border affairs is held this week.

Are these the same tents we were discussing about based on satellite images?

[Rakesh]

Whoever is on twitter, please visit the links below and retweet. These tweets are from Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd).

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 74594?s=20 ---> For his valour with no regard to his personal safety, Gurtej Singh killed at least a dozen Chinese single handedly. He deserves nothing less than Param Vir Chakra. #PVCforGURTEJ @rajnathsingh @PMOIndia #MoD

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 65664?s=20 ---> Bhaiyon aur Behnon let’s trend #PVCforGURTEJ

[sajaym]

As flow of Galwan river increases, Chinese troops well equipped, Indian troops may need specialised clothing

...the Indian Security forces are now feeling the need for specialised waterproof clothing for the troops deployed there in a standoff position with China.

Technically, it is to address such issues that IA have been given special financial powers. I hope the funds will be used to address such requirements on a fast track basis without begging the babus.

https://www.timesnownews.com/india/article/after-violent-face-off-with-china-armed-forces-granted-financial-power-can-buy-any-weapon-under-rs-500-crore/609775

[rajkhalsa]

Just wanted to post an interesting podcast interview I came across.

On Midrats 28 June 2020 - Episode 547: China in the Post-COVID-19 World with Dr. Oriana Skylar Mastro

From the alpine lakes on the Indo-Tibetan frontier to the sweltering tropics of the South China Sea, China is on the offensive in response to the global COVID-19 pandemic. Aggressive and persistent in her pursuit of expanding her control and influence in her near-abroad and globally, she is challenging the distracted and slothish West to keep up with her.

What are the latest moves on the global chess board?

Our guest for the full hour covering the full range of China related challenges will be Dr. Oriana Skylar Mastro.

Oriana is an assistant professor of security studies at the Edmund A. Walsh School of Foreign Service at Georgetown University. In August, she will join the Freeman Spogli Institute for International Studies, Stanford University as a Center Fellow where she will continue her research on Chinese military and security policy, Asia-Pacific security issues, war termination, and coercive diplomacy. She is also a resident scholar at the American Enterprise Institute and an inaugural Wilson Center China Fellow. Additionally she serves in the United States Air Force Reserve as a Senior China Analyst at the Pentagon. She holds a B.A. in East Asian Studies from Stanford University and an M.A. and Ph.D. in Politics from Princeton University.

Very insightful talk with Dr. Mastro on Chinese strategy, worldview, and intent. I'll leave it to the gurus here to better summarize and contextualize her main points, but she provided interesting insight from a U.S. perspective into the Chinese mentality and why they are doing what they're doing, globally speaking. Her perspective broadly aligns with the gnyan of the Chinese psyche given by some of the China watchers here.

She will be testifying today at U.S. House of Representatives Committee on Foreign Affairs today, June 30, at 3 pm EST (July 1, 12:30 am IST) on the subject of Chinese Maritime Ambitions. The hearing is available by live webcast on the Committee website.

Link to where video of the testimony will be posted.

[fanne]

what is the summary of the reasons behind china's behavior.

[Primus]

Agree with the thrust of your post, but...


I assume you have a credible source to justify this choice of words?

Source? I’ll do you one better, experience. Second, no one stands around counting who killed what and where when shit Is flying all over.

I’ve no doubt, our men fought valiantly but please, from those that have been in combat, you’re doin a disservice when you spread fictional accounts like this. This works wonders in communist countries of old that used to talk about their men thwarting tank assaults by charging them with bayonets. Reality was those tank assaults were thwarted because of lack of fuel.

RS Ji, this would imply that all our fallen heroes whose names are taken with respect in every household did not deserve any of the honor and that their deeds were just random acts in the heat of the moment? If nothing can be recorded or truly attributed to a single person, how then does one decide who did what? Are we all to believe that there is no valor in the battlefield, just senseless rage that pushes people to do the unthinkable?

I am old enough to remember the '62 war and have grown up with tales of extraordinary courage and selfless deeds performed by our soldiers in every conflict since then. I also have family and close friends who have seen it with their own eyes.

Granted, there is a jingo in each of us that believes our fighting men are larger than life, to some extent embellishment therefore is acceptable. But to suggest that it is all fiction and therefore 'BS' is in itself a disservice to the nation and the billion plus people whose eyes look up to you and the rest of the armed forces as its savior.

Just my thoughts.

[rajkhalsa]

what is the summary of the reasons behind china's behavior.

Fanne, I'll edit my post with a summary shortly

[KL Dubey]

Why a Trade War With China Is a Bad Idea for India

New Delhi risks responding to a deadly border skirmish by making its economy more insular. Few things would benefit Beijing more.

BY JAMES CRABTREE | JUNE 29, 2020, 2:50 PM

This Crabtree is a curious character. He is sitting in NUS Singapore, seems a NYT type. I wonder what skin he has in this game ?

[rpartha]

Whoever is on twitter, please visit the links below and retweet. These tweets are from Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd).

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 74594?s=20 ---> For his valour with no regard to his personal safety, Gurtej Singh killed at least a dozen Chinese single handedly. He deserves nothing less than Param Vir Chakra. #PVCforGURTEJ @rajnathsingh @PMOIndia #MoD

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 65664?s=20 ---> Bhaiyon aur Behnon let’s trend #PVCforGURTEJ

I will surely do it.. but let's wait for more info to come out about others too... if we tweet something like this in the middle of a war (even if it is staggered) we may get distracted... not about the valor part but about raising PVC part...

[chola]

You won't announce a war but you can ready a nation for war.

IMHO probably covid and covid-related economics with some anti-chinese bans. But if it is a big across the board ban on chini products then it would be close to war settings and the nation has to be prepared.

If the ban or chini retaliation cuts off APIs for our pharma then it will impact everything from the chini fight to our covid response to our exports. Ban on parts can disrupt or close down the auto and electronics industries.

Chola sirji I want the sounding of the conch....

No seriously in 1971 when dad was in Bangladesh civvies in Belgium asked my mother how the war was fought on a daily basis. Mom was taken aback when some actually asked if the conch / bugle was sounded each morning for the combatants to enter the battfield and a similar call at dusk to cease hostilities!!!

LoL. The vision in my head now is Bahubali blowing into a giant snail shell and charging into battle with a million warriors behind him.

[chola]

I know the IA has orders now to use bullets but if the LAC settles again into "no firearms" then we should arm our troops with the Talwar (no, not the FFG but our traditional sword):

[Manish_Sharma]

Why a Trade War With China Is a Bad Idea for India

This Crabtree is a curious character. He is sitting in NUS Singapore, seems a NYT type. I wonder what skin he has in this game ?

Bloody guy says:

But its (India's) military is inefficient, underequipped, and dogged by procurement corruption scandals. Facing a dreadful coronavirus-driven recession, India’s economic position over the coming few years is unlikely to be much stronger.

[VikramS]

So the US wants to buy Turkeys S400 so that it can sell F35s.

The Russians are unlikely to allow the US to lay their hands on it.

So perhaps the US can buy it from Turkey and "gift" it to India.

[Manish_Sharma]

OT alert/

Where is Singha ji and Surya ji?

It's a pity Singha ji gave such precious inputs during LEVANT thread about foriegn war, but is now missing during Bharat-Cheen war!

[darshhan]

OT alert/

Where is Singha ji and Surya ji?

It's a pity Singha ji gave such precious inputs during LEVANT thread about foriegn war, but is now missing during Bharat-Cheen war!

He is still active albeit on twitter by the handle of daeroplate. You can check him up.

[darshhan]

Whoever is on twitter, please visit the links below and retweet. These tweets are from Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd).

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 74594?s=20 ---> For his valour with no regard to his personal safety, Gurtej Singh killed at least a dozen Chinese single handedly. He deserves nothing less than Param Vir Chakra. #PVCforGURTEJ @rajnathsingh @PMOIndia #MoD

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 65664?s=20 ---> Bhaiyon aur Behnon let’s trend #PVCforGURTEJ

I will surely do it.. but let's wait for more info to come out about others too... if we tweet something like this in the middle of a war (even if it is staggered) we may get distracted... not about the valor part but about raising PVC part...

Starting a social media campaign on twitter/facebook/instagram to help get someone PVC. I doubt if army works like that. Group Captain MJA Vinod saab ought to know better. Till date no official citation has been released. The issue is still pending resolution. The conflict is yet to come.
And yet people are already clamoring for gallantry awards that too on social media.

[Manish_Sharma]

OT alert/

Where is Singha ji and Surya ji?

It's a pity Singha ji gave such precious inputs during LEVANT thread about foriegn war, but is now missing during Bharat-Cheen war!

He is still active albeit on twitter by the handle of daeroplate. You can check him up.

_/\_
Thanks!

[Anoop]

Interesting details on PLA reorganization (political angles as well).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7fwexpZQluM

[rajpa]

China is strongly concerned, verifying the situation: Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson Zhao Lijian on India banning Chinese apps

We want to stress that Chinese Govt always asks Chinese businesses to abide by international & local laws-regulations. Indian Govt has a responsibility to uphold the legal rights of international investors including Chinese ones: Zhao Lijian, Chinese Foreign Ministry spokesperson.

It is interesting that Chinese spokesperson mentioned the legal rights of Chinese investors. They are probably worried that AliBaba, Tencent etc may suffer a huge rout in the stockmarkets etc if India sorta makes their equity stakes in PayTM etc null and void or something of the sort that the Chinese govt would not hesitate to do. It would indeed be a huge problem for them if earlier Chinese investment in India is somehow forced to be sold to a non Chinese entity.

[kvjayan]

Hero of Galwan valley 23 years old Gurtej Singh of 3rd Punjab Ghatat Platoon killed 12 chinese soldiers by himself.

https://theeasternlink.com/the-supreme- ... 6vR6ceTT64

The author of this article seems to be too clever, trying to take a dig at PM/Gujarat while being (justifiably) all praise for the young shaheed:

"We Bengalis have a huge connect and 'soft corner' for Sikhs and other Punjabis - of the 585 freedom fighters in Andaman's Cellular Jail during the entire stretch of our fight for freedom, 398 were from Bengal, my maternal grandfather included, and 98 were from Punjab. None from Gujarat by the way."

He did not want to mention those from the present day Maharashtra! (perhaps due to ideological reasons). But, deliberately included nil score for Gujarat.

He also snidely refers the PM as the 'Pied Piper'. All in all, unnecessary and misguided ideological/regional pride in a homage write-up.

[nandakumar]

This Crabtree is a curious character. He is sitting in NUS Singapore, seems a NYT type. I wonder what skin he has in this game ?

Bloody guy says:

But its (India's) military is inefficient, underequipped, and dogged by procurement corruption scandals. Facing a dreadful coronavirus-driven recession, India’s economic position over the coming few years is unlikely to be much stronger.

Leave his aside his swipes about the Indian military. But on the trade issue, he had just one para (the third last) on trade with a profound observation that India will find it difficult to do without Chinese electronics items.

[williams]

Patton got it right when he said wars may be fought with weapons, but they are won by men. It is the spirit of the men who follow and of the man who leads that gains the victory. It is the question of tactics, training, and the spirit of IAF that no one can beat. We need to provide the equipment with numbers and operationalize them. You cannot do that with imports especially against countries like China. We have the ability to build some weapons right at home and we need more private investment and diversification right now.

[Jarita]

Hero of Galwan valley 23 years old Gurtej Singh of 3rd Punjab Ghatat Platoon killed 12 chinese soldiers by himself.

https://theeasternlink.com/the-supreme- ... 6vR6ceTT64

The author of this article seems to be too clever, trying to take a dig at PM/Gujarat while being (justifiably) all praise for the young shaheed:

"We Bengalis have a huge connect and 'soft corner' for Sikhs and other Punjabis - of the 585 freedom fighters in Andaman's Cellular Jail during the entire stretch of our fight for freedom, 398 were from Bengal, my maternal grandfather included, and 98 were from Punjab. None from Gujarat by the way."

He did not want to mention those from the present day Maharashtra! (perhaps due to ideological reasons). But, deliberately included nil score for Gujarat.

He also snidely refers the PM as the 'Pied Piper'. All in all, unnecessary and misguided ideological/regional pride in a homage write-up.

Never will they miss a chance to create and exacerbate a faultline in India. Only an inferior mind would think this way and denigrate the contributions of different parts of India in different ways be it armed forces, business, science, space and what have you. There is an extremely ugly strain of this emerging from the TMC attempt at retaining power which picks on other communities and creates sub nationalism. I would not underplay this. This is no different from the movements that created LTTE and the militancy in Punjab. It must be squelched. While the write up may be about the shaheed, all of that got washed away with this ugliness. The 16Bihar regiment was about India but this ugly separatist made it about communities. India is too soft a state. People like this need the China treatment they so admire.

[vinod]

Why would someone announce a war?

You won't announce a war but you can ready a nation for war.

IMHO probably covid and covid-related economics with some anti-chinese bans. But if it is a big across the board ban on chini products then it would be close to war settings and the nation has to be prepared.

If the ban or chini retaliation cuts off APIs for our pharma then it will impact everything from the chini fight to our covid response to our exports. Ban on parts can disrupt or close down the auto and electronics industries.

You worry too much unnecessarily. The chinese companies want to sell stuff. They will sell it through third parties and Indian govt can look away when convenient to them.

[sudeepj]

Hero of Galwan valley 23 years old Gurtej Singh of 3rd Punjab Ghatat Platoon killed 12 chinese soldiers by himself.

https://theeasternlink.com/the-supreme- ... 6vR6ceTT64

The author of this article seems to be too clever, trying to take a dig at PM/Gujarat while being (justifiably) all praise for the young shaheed:

"We Bengalis have a huge connect and 'soft corner' for Sikhs and other Punjabis - of the 585 freedom fighters in Andaman's Cellular Jail during the entire stretch of our fight for freedom, 398 were from Bengal, my maternal grandfather included, and 98 were from Punjab. None from Gujarat by the way."

He did not want to mention those from the present day Maharashtra! (perhaps due to ideological reasons). But, deliberately included nil score for Gujarat.

He also snidely refers the PM as the 'Pied Piper'. All in all, unnecessary and misguided ideological/regional pride in a homage write-up.

https://theeasternlink.com/ <-- This is fake news. Check the contact us link and the address.

[VinodTK]

What China Thinks Of Galwan Valley Clash?; Chinese Military Scholar Yun Sun Exclusive | Newstrack




Very interesting views, it is worth listening (their views on the border, GDP, and this in not 1962)

[Rs_singh]

The author of this article seems to be too clever, trying to take a dig at PM/Gujarat while being (justifiably) all praise for the young shaheed:

"We Bengalis have a huge connect and 'soft corner' for Sikhs and other Punjabis - of the 585 freedom fighters in Andaman's Cellular Jail during the entire stretch of our fight for freedom, 398 were from Bengal, my maternal grandfather included, and 98 were from Punjab. None from Gujarat by the way."

He did not want to mention those from the present day Maharashtra! (perhaps due to ideological reasons). But, deliberately included nil score for Gujarat.

He also snidely refers the PM as the 'Pied Piper'. All in all, unnecessary and misguided ideological/regional pride in a homage write-up.

https://theeasternlink.com/ <-- This is fake news. Check the contact us link and the address.

So glad there are others here who don’t get carried away with bravado. Take the red pill y’all.

[nam]

Wonder what are the Generals talking for 11 hours so far! The last 10 hours did not change much. Chinis don't want to go, nor we will leave. After yesterday's app ban, the Chinis cannot announce a pull back.

So luckily for us, the Chinis intend to stay.

As long as they stay, GoI will be reminded everyday and forced to carry out steps to de-couple us from the Chini dependency. And consider China as an adversary.

I am willing to bet a penny, that GoI will restore back access to our market, if the Chinis pull back now. The longer they stay, harder it becomes for GoI to create superficial steps.

We need the Chinese threat to force GoI's hand and driven innovation in India. If you don't have an enemy, you don't grow. And GoI is past master in sugar coating adversary threat..

[Jarita]

Wonder what are the Generals talking for 11 hours so far! The last 10 hours did not change much. Chinis don't want to go, nor we will leave. After yesterday's app ban, the Chinis cannot announce a pull back.

So luckily for us, the Chinis intend to stay.

As long as they stay, GoI will be reminded everyday and forced to carry out steps to de-couple us from the Chini dependency. And consider China as an adversary.

I am willing to bet a penny, that GoI will restore back access to our market, if the Chinis pull back now. The longer they stay, harder it becomes for GoI to create superficial steps.

We need the Chinese threat to force GoI's hand and driven innovation in India. If you don't have an enemy, you don't grow. And GoI is past master in sugar coating adversary threat..

That is a good point. Let it sustain for a year.

[Rs_singh]

Wonder what are the Generals talking for 11 hours so far! The last 10 hours did not change much. Chinis don't want to go, nor we will leave. After yesterday's app ban, the Chinis cannot announce a pull back.

Buying time...tick tock tick tock... oh wait, that seems to have seized ops.

[VikramS]

What China Thinks Of Galwan Valley Clash?; Chinese Military Scholar Yun Sun Exclusive | Newstrack

Very interesting views, it is worth listening (their views on the border, GDP, and this in not 1962)

If she represents Chinese voice, it is clear that they are fixated on GDP and do not feel India can fight a war with China.

Regardless of what happens here, it should be clear that India needs to step up her industrialization game, including military and non-military.

Another aspect is that they do not think India is even in the same league; they see themselves as the only competition to the USA.

So the lack of tribute paying and recognition of a vassal status is what is bothering them.

[VikramS]

So glad there are others here who don’t get carried away with bravado. Take the red pill y’all.

Nothing wrong with the bravado.

If the Chinese feel that they are the rulers of the world, Indians too should feel that they can take them on 1:1.

What that should not translate to is rash decisions by the leaders which do not make sense.

Given what is going on , I doubt that is the case.

[arshyam]

Whoever is on twitter, please visit the links below and retweet. These tweets are from Group Captain MJA Vinod (retd).

https://twitter.com/MjaVinod/status/127 ... 74594?s=20 ---> For his valour with no regard to his personal safety, Gurtej Singh killed at least a dozen Chinese single handedly. He deserves nothing less than Param Vir Chakra. #PVCforGURTEJ @rajnathsingh @PMOIndia #MoD

Be careful saar, lest you be accused of getting "carried away".. Lol

Per some "experienced" posters, such reports are BS...

[RaviB]

What China Thinks Of Galwan Valley Clash?; Chinese Military Scholar Yun Sun Exclusive | Newstrack

Very interesting views, it is worth listening (their views on the border, GDP, and this in not 1962)

Sun Yun is a very good CCP mouthpiece, so it's always useful to hear her. This fits very well with my earlier post about how the Chinese see us here
viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&p=2441143#p2441143

I really like how Rahul Kanwal ends the interview: "Ma'm there's very little we agree on, but this is not mainland China and we're happy to hear opposing views".

China’s Strategic Assessment of India is her article from March referred to in the interview.

And the one specifically on Ladakh, from June is China’s Strategic Assessment of the Ladakh Clash

[RaviB]

What China Thinks Of Galwan Valley Clash?; Chinese Military Scholar Yun Sun Exclusive | Newstrack

Very interesting views, it is worth listening (their views on the border, GDP, and this in not 1962)

If she represents Chinese voice, it is clear that they are fixated on GDP and do not feel India can fight a war with China.

Regardless of what happens here, it should be clear that India needs to step up her industrialization game, including military and non-military.

Another aspect is that they do not think India is even in the same league; they see themselves as the only competition to the USA.

So the lack of tribute paying and recognition of a vassal status is what is bothering them.

I think someone here made the very important point that although trade with India is a very small part of China's entire trade, the surplus of 50 billion $ is 13.5% of China's total trade surplus. So China would be worried about losing that surplus. That also explains why it has done absolutely nothing to redress the trade surplus.

Coming to the current standoff, I think what they want is to force India to agree to a buffer zone / no man's land in Ladakh and an end to patrolling. They are highly unlikely to get it but that's what they wanted to achieve by starting a war. Chumar would be the precedent they are working with, but now they have a Doklam redux on their hands. I think we won't see a war this year but hopefully the lesson is learnt and we start preparing for one in two years.

[williams]

If they don't go back to pre-April status there is no way India is going to agree to de-escalate. Especially after losing 20 lives on it.

[Rs_singh]

Interesting take by a former head of the DIA, reflects on lack of intelligence coordination between MHA/ITBP and MOD/IA:

https://www.thequint.com/voices/opinion ... e-military

A word about the website being discussed by some as credible source of information. It is hosted in US, registered in the Netherlands and reports on Indian news. You’ll be surprised by reading the date on which it became active and for how long. Good luck!

Edit: you can google the author and the first couple links should tell you a lot about the intentions and intended audience.

[nachiket]

If they don't go back to pre-April status there is no way India is going to agree to de-escalate. Especially after losing 20 lives on it.

Well problem is all the de-escalation has to happen from their side isn't it? We haven't occupied territory on their side of the LAC as far as we know. We are going into these talks with zero bargaining chips. Not sure what we expect to happen.

[Larry Walker]

China pulling back without firing a short is a complete loss of HnD for CPC. The only way they can do it is just before pulling back - they will do a huge PR excercise and provide evidence that how China occupied lands within India's territory and kept it in its possession for 4-5 months and India could do nothing. This is minimum required for China to declare victory. And that is why I think we will just not wait for Chinese to vacate during winter but we will have to 'push them back' to ensure that it does not look like Chinese victory.

[Larry Walker]

What China Thinks Of Galwan Valley Clash?; Chinese Military Scholar Yun Sun Exclusive | Newstrack

Very interesting views, it is worth listening (their views on the border, GDP, and this in not 1962)

A country that has converted stealing into an art via 'reverse engineering' now hallucinating of itself as equal peer of USA ??!! Chinks are delusional for real.