India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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ks_sachin
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 03 Jul 2020 07:53

SriKumar wrote:
Mukesh.Kumar wrote: That's why I am pushing for an understanding and quantification of what is the cost ....
One measure that lends itself very nicely to quantification is the money poured into raising all the infantry and moutain divisions and Garwhal scouts, Ladakh scouts to staff the border wherever an ingress, however minor, was made; not to mention the hardware associated with these divisions (and other forces Su-MKIs, IRBMS, etc etc). I cant provide a number but if you look at all the money that was spent since 1963 on just trying to hold the LAC, it would run in crores of crore rupees (and counting) taken away from infrastructure and economic development from an India that had massive poverty and malnutrition till about 5 years ago. All goverments, Lal Bahadur Shastri and Indira Gandhi, onwards have had to spend, Congress or BJP.

It would not be a friendly nation that amasses several divisions of troops along the border when the other country's citizens are reeling with the Covid epidemic, entire cities in lockdown for months, clampdown on travel by train, air, car; people not allowed to go out, many have lost their jobs, economy taking a huge hit. And this is the time they pick for a military feint.


This is exactly the time I would pick. You have to attack when the enemy is weak or preoccupied...

We should have anticipated something like this...the Communist party always looks for diversions when things are not going well..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vijayk » 03 Jul 2020 07:55

vimal wrote:This thread is really entertaining.


what is so entertaining?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 03 Jul 2020 08:04

-deleted-
Last edited by SriKumar on 03 Jul 2020 08:20, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vijayk » 03 Jul 2020 08:08

This guy always supported Modi and India. How did he turn out to be Chinese agent now?

Image
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 03 Jul 2020 08:36

vijayk wrote:This guy always supported Modi and India. How did he turn out to be Chinese agent now?

I don't see it as being pro-chinese. He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.... His entire point seems to hinge on "india aligning with US = GOOD". India entering into a strategic alignment with US is great for US. Whether it's good for India is another matter altogether. Once that dichotomy is understood, his opinions make sense.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vijayk » 03 Jul 2020 09:00

https://mobile.twitter.com/HarryChenPhD ... 5588829185

Harry Chen PhD
@HarryChenPhD1
#China, June 16,
Hospital line up in #Beijing, the situation is dire. A new cluster threatens to rip through the country as many have already fled the city seeking refuge elsewhere...sound familiar?Face with monocle


Check the video ...

If this is what COMMIE ba$tards are doing with outbreaks in Beijing, what will they do to Indians or for that matter to any one else once they become #1

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 03 Jul 2020 09:06

k prasad wrote:I don't see it as being pro-chinese. He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.... His entire point seems to hinge on "india aligning with US = GOOD". India entering into a strategic alignment with US is great for US. Whether it's good for India is another matter altogether. Once that dichotomy is understood, his opinions make sense.

I agree completely. I think China actually did us a favor by stabbing us in the back like this. This has concentrated India's mind wonderfully and the strategic slackness / complacency that seems to infect all our national thinking has quickly cleared and will hopefully stay cleared for the rest of the PM's term. Aage aage kya hoga, dekha jayega.

As someone else said earlier in this thread, nothing good happens in India (at least, nothing that takes substantial effort) unless there is some kind of crisis that kicks us in the butt. China's treachery has provided the kick we required.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 03 Jul 2020 09:14

Still think it's too soon to call it a favor. It'll become a favor if we manage to make something out of it.

If all we do is ban some chinese apps and order extra planes from Russia, then it wouldn't have been worth it for the price our jawans paid in the recent clashes.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 03 Jul 2020 09:22

I would urge the wise men who are behind the move to send better interceptor boats to Pangong Tso,to carefully examine the innovative Iranian approach in the Gulf,where tiny fishing vessels have been equipped with SR missiles. The Chinese boats thus far in the lake have been larger and have rammed on occasion our patrol boats. The news item spoke about the 12 craft being airlifted by a C-17,dis-assembled at DBO and then moved with difficulty ( how? By road?) Tto the lake where presumably theu will be laboriously re- assembled.

The Iranians have mounted atop the small cabin a device that looks like an MBRL which fires SR missiles resembling either ATGMs or MANPADS. V.innovative,the boats are featherweight too. I suggest that from DBO our MI-26s ,we still operate a few,if they can operate at that alt. transport the boats underslung,or from a lower altitude, as they can recover even a downed Chinook
as was done in Afg. For some time I've been repeatedly saying we need more MI-26Ts ,bought or leased to assist in our border road infra. campaign since these birds can carry huge loads, upto 20t.

Whatever boats/craft we operate at the lake,it must outgun that of the Chins. ,and the ability to carry a short range missile plus MANPADS to counter enemy air attack would be v.helpful.

I too see a silver lining in the cloud with the dastardly actions of the Chins.It has rudely shaken up the entire establishment which was pro- China, full of appeasement and servility, now realising who is our most dangerous enemy who will NEVER change its attitude towards India.Gen.Rodrigues who was chastised some years ago by the then establishment for calling Pak an " irritation",but China the real "enemy," was truly prophetic.We on BRF have been saying this for 2 decades.Mr.Ram Madhav of the BJP in a recent interview said that the govt. realised after Doklam that a change in policy towards China was needed and began to take remedial measures,however the Galwan gambit by China was unexpected and shocking,it came out of " left field" as the Yanquis would say, just as they attacked Vietnam and the Soviets decades ago. The wholesale dumping of Chin goods,contracts,etc. into the sewer is a tremendous development.The sooner the " de- addiction" by India of everything Chinese is accomplished,the faster our economy will grow both in size and quality of its products.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 09:24

This is what we are up against, am inherently evil regime which puts millions of its citizens in concentration camps and sells their hair as beauty products, news from US customs seizures:


https://time.com/5862372/china-prison-c ... s-uighurs/

This is nazi Germany and Soviet Union rolled into one.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 03 Jul 2020 09:26

Roop wrote:
k prasad wrote:I don't see it as being pro-chinese. He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.... His entire point seems to hinge on "india aligning with US = GOOD". India entering into a strategic alignment with US is great for US. Whether it's good for India is another matter altogether. Once that dichotomy is understood, his opinions make sense.


I agree completely. I think China actually did us a favor by stabbing us in the back like this. This has concentrated India's mind wonderfully and the strategic slackness / complacency that seems to infect all our national thinking has quickly cleared and will hopefully stay cleared for the rest of the PM's term. Aage aage kya hoga, dekha jayega.

As someone else said earlier in this thread, nothing good happens in India (at least, nothing that takes substantial effort) unless there is some kind of crisis that kicks us in the butt. China's treachery has provided the kick we required.

That is a defeatist attitude. If that is the case we got backstabbed already in 1962. We got backstabbed every time China undermined us including providing nukes to the Pakis.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 03 Jul 2020 09:26

Philip, we do not need any more Russian junk. We need our own junk. And given the availability rate of your vaunted mi26, I’ll take our few chinooks any day. OT I know, please feel free to delete if necessary.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 09:35

Rs_singh wrote:This is what we are up against, am inherently evil regime which puts millions of its citizens in concentration camps and sells their hair as beauty products, news from US customs seizures:

https://time.com/5862372/china-prison-c ... s-uighurs/

This is Nazi Germany and Soviet Union rolled into one.

And it's worse than both of them combined. And btw Mao has killed more than Hitler and Stalin combined. Moreover, Soviet Union didn't have a great economy. They relied mainly on oil. Nazi Germany didn't have natural resources that is comparable to USA. China has both. It's only a matter of time before they start a war.

CCP is the most dangerous threat the world will face in modern times.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 03 Jul 2020 09:41

williams wrote:That is a defeatist attitude.

I think it's a realistic observation, but...whatever.

If that is the case we got backstabbed already in 1962. We got backstabbed every time China undermined us including providing nukes to the Pakis.

They did backstab us in '62. And it forced us to abandon Nehru's foolish plans to disband the armed forces and rely on Panch Sheel and Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai. Thus we were well-prepared for the Paki attack in '65.

They did backstab us by giving Pakis nukes, and that forced us to stop dithering and prepare our own nuke deterrent (something we should have done at our own initiative in the mid-sixties).
Last edited by Roop on 03 Jul 2020 09:45, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 09:43

Chinese delay as PM quits social media site Weibo
thttps://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/in ... 739079.cms

I don't know if it's reported here or not. PM Modi has quit weibo.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vamsee » 03 Jul 2020 10:32

PM Modi is in Leh now. Unexpected visit.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 03 Jul 2020 10:38

^^^ Readying the troops?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby gashish » 03 Jul 2020 10:39


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby TushS » 03 Jul 2020 10:40

That must be for boosting moral for soldiers and give a message across the border that we are ready.!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 10:53

He surprises us again.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 10:55

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sajo » 03 Jul 2020 11:08

AshishAcharya wrote:Chinese delay as PM quits social media site Weibo
thttps://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/in ... 739079.cms

I don't know if it's reported here or not. PM Modi has quit weibo.


As per the article, the profile could not be completely deleted as it has photos of His Divine Superiorness Eleven with Modi. All posts had to be manually deleted, as deleting the profile requires permission ! :rotfl:
And here are our resident Commies lecturing on TIktok's FOE.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rpartha » 03 Jul 2020 11:14

AshishAcharya wrote:...

Good morale boosting...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 03 Jul 2020 11:26

So what will Eleven do? Will he visit?

I see it as a direct challenge to Eleven.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mahadevbhu » 03 Jul 2020 11:36

The aforementioned warontherocks article is good.vipin narang and the other guy.along with him..very good stuff..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sajaym » 03 Jul 2020 11:38

Philip wrote: The Iranians have mounted atop the small cabin a device that looks like an MBRL which fires SR missiles resembling either ATGMs or MANPADS. V.innovative,the boats are featherweight too.


Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jul 2020 11:45

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:We need to quantify and specify how China's rise is inclemental for us. Not doing this robs us of two benefits. Firstly, a well visualized negative scenario will light a fire under people's asses. Nothing galvanizes us better than a crisis. It's then that we can easily kick aside idiots like CrookLaw, SSM, MMS and get to Barton building. And secondly, there are no permanent enemies or friends among nations. One day in the future it maybe in the interest of a strong India and strong China too accommodate each other. The only way this works out for us is if we have a clear picture of what is our interest. That's why I am pushing for an understanding and quantification of what is the cost of letting China rise unchallenged.

And the answer to the critical question of what is our objective. I am sorry, but we are all guilty of being very wishy washy in defining this. What exactly do we want? What are the pressure points for us? What are our milestones.

Whether it's BRF or other forums, I cannot see a coherent vision for the future of India. And I am as guilty as anyone else in being one of the blindmen describing an elephant from touch.

Mukesh.Kumar, all your questions are inter-related and so would be the answer.

The foremost priority of any government is providing security to its people and its borders. This is especially so in our case because we have a long ill-defined border on our east with China which is actively gobbling up our territory. We have an implacable enemy on the west who too covets our land and wishes to destroy us. And, the two have been colluding for the last six decades.

The second is to uplift millions of of our people from poverty and bring all factors of Human Development Index (HDI) to a decent level from the abysmal lows they are in today.

These two broad narratives ought to be the two primary interests / objectives of any Indian government. The rest follows. The way we can quantify this is how much our economy has to improve in order to achieve a certain per capita income that would alleviate poverty along with how much we have to spend on security to issues to deter the twin fronts, or destroy one and checkmate the other or various combinations thereof etc.

Again, how China's 'rise' is dangerous to us (not merely inclemental, I feel) cannot be quantified. The point that should be internalized is China is as much interested in destroying us (I am using the word 'destroy' in a broad term encompassing economy, military, diplomacy etc.) as is Pakistan but for different reasons. China wants to be the sole power in Asia now and brooks no competition. I feel that its show-of-strength during this covid time both in all its disputed maritime borders and the land border with us is to de-facto establish that position. It feels India is a strategic competitor whose rise must be stopped violently. That's why it is involved more aggressively with us in Ladakh. By c. 2049, it certainly wants to be the undisputed sole power in the world. While our aim is not to assume the mantle of the 'sole superpower', China's 'violent rise' comes completely in the way of our 'peaceful rise'. The History of China and the Chinese mindset clearly show that their idea of a 'Harmonious World' is at a diametrical variance with ours as their sense of Harmony not only puts them at a hierarchically higher pedestal than that of others but also imposes their and only their world views on others.

Those who feel that vassalage and tributary are not the goals of China, yes, they may no longer demand foreign ambassadors or delegates to prostrate seven times in front of the Emperor as the Manchus and before them, the Mings, used to demand but the parameters of that attitude have been suitably tailored to modern times, nevertheless.

Added Later: No more here on these issues as it fits better in the Strat forum

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sajo » 03 Jul 2020 11:50

Better than a 1000 pages of Gobar times Propaganda as far as Signalling to the Eleven Camp. As a layperson, this 1 pic does more for alleviating unfounded fears than any number of flowery written article.

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 12:00

AshishAcharya wrote:So what will Eleven do? Will he visit?

I see it as a direct challenge to Eleven.

Not a challenge in the conventional sense. It is more a signal that Modi is serious about LAC and the need for status quo from before April to be restored.

The Deployment of Special forces that usually operate behind enemy lines too are a signal of intent.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 03 Jul 2020 12:04

Roop wrote:
williams wrote:That is a defeatist attitude.

I think it's a realistic observation, but...whatever.

If that is the case we got backstabbed already in 1962. We got backstabbed every time China undermined us including providing nukes to the Pakis.

They did backstab us in '62. And it forced us to abandon Nehru's foolish plans to disband the armed forces and rely on Panch Sheel and Hindi-Chini bhai-bhai. Thus we were well-prepared for the Paki attack in '65.

They did backstab us by giving Pakis nukes, and that forced us to stop dithering and prepare our own nuke deterrent (something we should have done at our own initiative in the mid-sixties).


IMHO we cannot expect to be a major power if we always take half measures when somebody backstabs us. We fought the Pakis 3.5 times but never got GB back. We developed nukes but only 45 kt. We developed ICBMs but only with a stated range of 5000 km. We delayed our scientists to develop an ASAT weapon by at least 2 years. I understand that is the reality but have we demanded better from our leaders? All I am saying is as citizens we need to demand more and make our government accountable. it seems as though we are too ready to accept mediocrity from our leadership.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 03 Jul 2020 12:11

mahadevbhu wrote:The aforementioned warontherocks article is good.vipin narang and the other guy.along with him..very good stuff..

Like his Father in Law this man is a serial liar. So do you believe PAF is speaking the truth and the IAF are liars?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 03 Jul 2020 12:15

williams wrote:IMHO we cannot expect to be a major power if we always take half measures when somebody backstabs us. We fought the Pakis 3.5 times but never got GB back.

Our lack of focus on GB is a problem which has now assumed major proportions. There are some reasons why we concentrated on the rest of PoK during 1947-48, except for a few bombing raids on Skardu by our IAF. After that, we neglected GB altogether even after Khunjerab Pass and KKH became so important for the nuclear and missile transfers from China to TSP. Had we not gone to the UNSC in 1948 and continued for a few more months, the story would have been entirely different. Spilt milk now.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 03 Jul 2020 12:21

williams wrote:
IMHO we cannot expect to be a major power if we always take half measures when somebody backstabs us.


+1. Whenever we get a chance to extract our pound of flesh, we suddenly become danveer karna.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 03 Jul 2020 12:47

Can't vouch for the handle but re-tweeted by Lifefist/Shiv Aroor

https://twitter.com/Aryanwarlord/status ... 2041213953
Salient points
1) Truck launched version of 1000km Nirbhay to be inducted post final series of trials in winter .
2) 900km+ ranged Brahmos version coming. (Imagine this on the P15 A & B)
3) 1500km+ ranged LRLACM to be developed for tri-series usage .

Note: 900 km Brahmos seems to be for the Navy perhaps will be carried by the mobile launcher but may not have an air variant. Sufficient to take out S-400 modules deployed along the border.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby S_Madhukar » 03 Jul 2020 12:50

====<admin note> needless post deleted ====

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 03 Jul 2020 12:55

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 03 Jul 2020 13:15

k prasad wrote:He provides an interesting perspective. An obviously american one.....

How do we know he is American?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby MeshaVishwas » 03 Jul 2020 14:56

Wow! Sixer by PM Modi!


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dumal » 03 Jul 2020 15:06

MeshaVishwas wrote:Sixer by PM Modi!


Any pointers to what the insignia on the cap he is wearing ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 03 Jul 2020 15:07

vijayk wrote:https://mobile.twitter.com/HarryChenPhD1/status/1273138795588829185

Harry Chen PhD
@HarryChenPhD1
#China, June 16,
Hospital line up in #Beijing, the situation is dire. A new cluster threatens to rip through the country as many have already fled the city seeking refuge elsewhere...sound familiar?Face with monocle


Check the video ...

If this is what COMMIE ba$tards are doing with outbreaks in Beijing, what will they do to Indians or for that matter to any one else once they become #1

This is an anti-China disinfo / psyops handle but he often does have authentic videos, well before anyone else. One speaker has a Beijing accent and right now the people are wearing clothes as per the usual climate right now. So this might very well be Beijing, the people are queuing for antibody testing, I think.
Last edited by RaviB on 03 Jul 2020 16:01, edited 1 time in total.


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