India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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abhik
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 05 Jul 2020 19:19

Rare video I found of a C-130J taking off from DBO (from what I could make out) from 2018

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby samirdiw » 05 Jul 2020 19:43

The Chinese action in Ladakh was to prevent India from joining with other countries bilaterally or in international forums as part of any retaliation for the coronavirus crap they pulled off. The land grabbing is just a way to forcefully influence India to stay off. Giving up the land without quid pro quo does not fulfill China's objective. It might have worked against a less firm govt.

Mistakes were made in the last few years on not pushing ahead with home grown weapons. The best thing that can happen for India is a lack of deescalation, continued pressure from the Chinese and a govt that does not give in and laser focuses on defense and economy (in that order).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pushkar.bhat » 05 Jul 2020 19:50

samirdiw wrote:The Chinese action in Ladakh was to prevent India from joining with other countries bilaterally or in international forums as part of any retaliation for the coronavirus crap they pulled off. The land grabbing is just a way to forcefully influence India to stay off. Giving up the land without quid pro quo does not fulfill China's objective. It might have worked against a less firm govt.

Mistakes were made in the last few years on not pushing ahead with home grown weapons. The best thing that can happen for India is a lack of deescalation, continued pressure from the Chinese and a govt that does not give in and laser focuses on defense and economy (in that order).


Cannot agree more..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 05 Jul 2020 19:52

sanjayc wrote:
This lady is a Nehruvian pacifist and Congress stooge. She keeps mouthing inanities (essentially using diplomatic jargon to recommend our submission to other countries). She was the ambassador to China who was dragged out of bed at 2am by Chinese to complain about something -- she was a walkover for foreign diplomats.


Also the signing of congress party and communist party accord (to bypass national laws and national consideration) happened under her watch. For all we know she may have been instrumental in this (wait those news will also tumble out). The accord in one sentence is this - congress will get help from CCP to rule India by undermining India as a nation and helping China as nation.

Part of that accord, chinese are amassing in Tibet, give a jhapad to India so that raul gandi can rule ....just that the plan did not go per the script

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 05 Jul 2020 20:05

abhik wrote:Rare video I found of a C-130J taking off from DBO (from what I could make out) from 2018


I thought the plane will not take off only.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Jul 2020 20:36

" Dorkie is full of hot air and his debates are unwatchable,"

Respectfully disagree sir. AG is a passionate, relentless, uncompromising patriot, who exposes and attacks all the individuals, groups and ideologies we at BR despise. Three weeks ago, he really stuck it to the Chinese guests on the debate, calling their country barbaric and delusional. Now, his debates can be much better moderated. There are too many people often speaking at once, talking over one another. And these guests don't heed his request to keep silent when it's not their turn. This is what makes the discussions irritating sometimes. But the attractiveness of the program outweighs these nuisances. I particularly love his characterisation of the NY Times and Washington Post, among others, as 50 cent rags.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Cain Marko » 05 Jul 2020 20:39

pushkar.bhat wrote:
If I was in his place I will disengage, let the winter set in, allow public memory to fade away and the quietly go home. He does not have any other options on the table. Everything else is an escalatory ladder with massive implications for PRC.

Happy to hear comments.

Hainji? Why does eleven need to show anything? Aren't the Chinese already occupying areas that they did not before May? I thought the entire argument was how to throw them back.... At this point, if he fades away, didn't he just get away?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 05 Jul 2020 20:58

ks_sachin wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:Hari sir,

We are just trying to point out the sheer lack of people on this forum without actual mil exp. jingoism comes at a cost. The purpose of this forum is to impart strategic thought but the thoughts of many here are simply fantastic, ks_sachin means well and is trying to guide this thread to realism...

... I am too steeped in the OG to doubt what the forces can do...
However apologies If I came across as anything but patriotic..
Modiji is a man I admire but....I am a big fan of Yes Prime Minister...There are a lot of Humphrey Appleby's in New Delhi.


I take your point.
However, I was not trying to view the issue purely through a patriotic lens.
If we consider unbiased foreign appreciations of the current situation, even the worst critic concedes that we actually have a slight edge in conventional forces, especially in the Ladakh sector.

Just a few points that need to be factored (in addition to the several others pointed out by other members), when checking out our Bat Eaters and their capabilities:

- They are hauling every single item to the front through long, exposed logistics lines. These lines are not very in number and wind through terrain that's absolutely barren and bereft of cover or vegetation. Each of these lines also run through choke points that are vulnerable to interdiction. One may argue the same is true for us, but the fact remains that their logistics lines are far more exposed and longer.

- The PLA appear to be a force that operates somewhat on its own whims. They also dabble in commercial ventures and their organisational structure appears to mirror the opaqueness of the CPC. A closed system designed for such top-down control inevitably breeds Yes-Men and usually as a consequence, may not encourage merit especially in the senior staff cadre at their HQs. Their system of Political Officers being embedded in fighting units does not appear to enhance the very important aspect of esprit-de-corps.

- Some member quote 1962 ops and the Bat Eater's 'human wave' tactics. The question is - was there really a human wave then, at all? Our analyses usually deals with the view from our side of the operations. Most of our historical narratives although detailed, invariably get meshed with emotive angles and one gets the feeling of having missed the forest for the trees. If we zoom out to the theatre level for the '62 War, its very evident that it was the loss in the Kameng Sector (ThagLa, Tawang, SeLa and BomdiLa) that resulted in the total collapse and humiliation. So what happened there?

- I would urge members to read the excellent three-part analysis by Maj Gen PJS Sandhu published in the USI Journal in 2016. Its essentially the view from the 'other side of the hill', the events have been pieced together from Chinese military literature and attempts to dispel common myths and mis-perceptions:

https://usiofindia.org/publication/usi-journal/1962-battle-of-se-la-and-bomdi-la/

Maj Gen Sandhu, himself a cavalry officer, correctly recognises that the ops in Kameng Sector, executed by the hot-shot Chinese General Zhang Guo Hua, a veteran of the Korean War, had all the classic elements of manoeuvre warfare -

To quote Gen Sandhu:
"The operational plan envisaged multi-directional advance, wide outflanking moves, encirclement and splitting up of Indian
positions, and tackling them piecemeal since none of the positions could be reinforced. The attack was carried out with such speed and ferocity that it completely unhinged the Indian defences and pulverised the Indian Command, resulting in panic and often contradictory decisions. Surprise was also achieved at tactical, operational and strategic levels. For instance, while the main objective of the Chinese lay in the Western Sector, the main effort was concentrated in the Eastern Sector so as to deliver a decisive blow. It was a masterly stroke of the strategy of indirect approach. Diplomatic front was also not neglected; the neutrality of the Soviet Union in case of an Indo-China war was assured"

-The Chinese had a total strength advantage of only 2:1 in Kameng (not sufficient to ensure victory in mountain warfare). About 22,000 troops against our 11,000.

- Our defenses and logistics line were aligned on an east-west axis. The Chinese advanced simultaneously on trails from north to south and in most cases, their forces were having limited ammunition with very limited logistics support. Their contact with Indian forces were on multiple points - simultaneous attacks, attacks in depth (using flanking moves) and their timing appeared to indicate to our forces, that the enemy was here, there and everywhere. The ultimate Centre-of-Gravity - the minds of the Indian Commanders, were hit.

- What is even more remarkable is that in '62, the Chinese in Kameng Sector were even using small trails (such as the Bailey's Trail) to walk in and infiltrate using ponies and porters. The trails were narrow and their forces were definitely vulnerable during the infil stage, had they been detected.

To quote Gen Sandhu in the Kameng Sector:
"- Marshal Liu compared the Indian Army dispositions with an analogy – ‘a copper head with the tail made of tin, a stiff back and a soft under belly’.
After some debate, their operational concept that was evolved entailed : ‘smashing the head (Se La), cutting-off the tail (Bomdi La), snapping at the waist (Road Se La – Dirang Dzong) and dissecting the belly (Dirang Dzong)."

Gen Sandhu even compares the ops in the sector with Battle of Chosin Reservoir - where the Chinese had battled the US forces in Korea using similar manoeuvres.

The point being that the Chinese then in 1962 were a thoroughly battle-inoculated force led by a hot-shot general.

Fast forward to 58 years later- their generation of soldiers and generals that fought so many battles are gone. Today the shoe is definitely on the other foot. And our present day Bat Eaters with their shiny pieces of kit may chose to lay claim to their legacy, but are they worthy of it?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 05 Jul 2020 20:59

Guys, other than Trump mouthing something useless about talking to both India and China, and Pompeo welcoming India's ban on Chincom apps, I haven't hear much from Unkil. And as a barometer of this, I skimmed through Uncle's brown boy Fareed Zakaria's pedantic BS on CNN, but didn't come across anything. Usually, he covers whatever it is that is of interest to Unkil like a loyal foot solder. So am I right that India Chincom spat as of yet is not much use to Unkil?

Reason I ask is because there is a lot of talk on Indian TV debates that there is an 'international consensus' building against Chincoms. On the surface this sounds plausible given Trump bahadur's strident attacks on Kung Flu and such, but by and large I am not seeing any teeth or muscle to take on Chincoms, much less help us SDREs in our battle against Chincoms. Closest support I see is from France. But to the best of my knowledge no country has outright condemned Chincom's India land grab.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby p_ram » 05 Jul 2020 21:08

Cain Marko wrote:
pushkar.bhat wrote:Hainji? Why does eleven need to show anything? Aren't the Chinese already occupying areas that they did not before May? I thought the entire argument was how to throw them back.... At this point, if he fades away, didn't he just get away?


Cainji, please correct me if I am wrong, but the only places currently "occupied" is between fingers 4-8(or 6) right?

1] Galwan Nallah: About 100 mts. near the bend.
2] Pangong Tso: Between Fingers 4 to 8 (or 6). But I guess it was technically already half occupied given that they had metaled road till that point. But yep, in India's perception this has been occupied.
3] Depsag Plains: Massive buildup on their side but no occupation land on Indian perception of LAC i guess.
4] Hotsprings: Same as above.
5] Spaggnur Tso: Same as above.
6] Gogra: Some rumours that they have been evicted, now only buildup on their sides.

But yep agree, if you are implying in the sense that the whole of Ladakh, Aksai Chin and Shaksgam valley as occupied.

Edit: Edited to add that this info is only as per "OSINT" and other ''journalist' sources only.
Last edited by p_ram on 05 Jul 2020 22:05, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby CRamS » 05 Jul 2020 21:13

Varoon Shekhar wrote:" Dorkie is full of hot air and his debates are unwatchable,"

Respectfully disagree sir. AG is a passionate, relentless, uncompromising patriot, who exposes and attacks all the individuals, groups and ideologies we at BR despise.


Varun, no doubt that he is useful. But if he shouts less, gives others a chance to talk, moderates his debates better, invites sober guests instead of traitors and Pakis and then yells at them; he will be more effective on movers and shakers. Right now, I am sure he has a loyal fan base, but even RW intellectuals don't take him seriously. So its a wasted effort IMO. Likewise, Rahul Shivshankar on TimesNow who shouts a tad less but again has all kinds of rif raff on his show like Pappu's perverts that dilutes the content of shows.

During this crisis at least, Rahul Kanwal is my go to man to get a sober reasonable analysis.

On the print side, I read both sides, and from the first para one can tell whether its an agenda piece or scholarly analysis. For e.g., there were some good tit bits in the analysis by Vipin Narang and Christopher Clary, but its clear they were peddling an anti-ModiJi agenda whom they loathe. This Clary chutiya has the gall to compare Maun Mohan Singh and his Sonia Madam's abject surrender to TSP post 26/11 with ModiJi's alleged inability to evict Chincoms from their ingresses across the LAC.

On the other side, I read Abhijit Iyer Mitra's analysis, but he still claims no Chincom ingress into Indian territory which is clearly a massive spin. I also take Nitin Gokhale seriously although he does have a pro-ModiJi slant, nothing wrong with that, but one needs to keep that in mind in the search for facts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 05 Jul 2020 21:17

Ladakh standoff: Tibetan community in Manali cheer for Indian Army, wave flags as the convoy passes by
https://www.opindia.com/2020/07/ladakh- ... passes-by/

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 05 Jul 2020 21:18

CRamS wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:" Dorkie is full of hot air and his debates are unwatchable,"

Respectfully disagree sir. AG is a passionate, relentless, uncompromising patriot, who exposes and attacks all the individuals, groups and ideologies we at BR despise.


Varun, no doubt that he is useful. But if he shouts less, gives others a chance to talk, moderates his debates better, invites sober guests instead of traitors and Pakis and then yells at them; he will be more effective on movers and shakers. Right now, I am sure he has a loyal fan base, but even RW intellectuals don't take him seriously. So its a wasted effort IMO. Likewise, Rahul Shivshankar on TimesNow who shouts a tad less but again has all kinds of rif raff on his show like Pappu's perverts that dilutes the content of shows.

During this crisis at least, Rahul Kanwal is my go to man to get a sober reasonable analysis.

On the print side, I read both sides, and from the first para one can tell whether its an agenda piece or scholarly analysis. For e.g., there were some good tit bits in the analysis by Vipin Narang and Christopher Clary, but its clear they were peddling an anti-ModiJi agenda whom they loathe. This Clary chutiya has the gall to compare Maun Mohan Singh and his Sonia Madam's abject surrender to TSP post 26/11 with ModiJi's alleged inability to evict Chincoms from their ingresses across the LAC.

On the other side, I read Abhijit Iyer Mitra's analysis, but he still claims no Chincom ingress into Indian territory which is clearly a massive spin. I also take Nitin Gokhale seriously although he does have a pro-ModiJi slant, nothing wrong with that, but one needs to keep that in mind in the search for facts.


I for one refuse to watch Rahul Siachen Kalwar and any media outlet part of the Modi hating India Today group.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Guddu » 05 Jul 2020 21:24

Discussion on physical verification, today
https://youtu.be/gNk-nbLRKJA

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 05 Jul 2020 21:45

^^^
Yah it is very irritating and perplexing, that the same sour pus, petty, shallow demagogic anti-BJP, anti-Hindu panelists appear over and over again on Arnab's show, and on TimesNoW. Why not invite balanced, nuanced, eloquent people more often( like Pavan Verma, Suhel Seth, Chetan Bhagat). They are not pro-Modi, certainly not on every issue, but they keep the larger interests of the country in mind. And they praise something when it deserves praising, even if Modi/BJP is behind it. That's the right way to think. But Sunit Chopra, Rajiv Desai, Nishant Verma, plus many of repeat Kashmiri guests( don't even want to name them) are absolutely awful. And having Pakistanis on the show frequently is wishy washy. Who needs to hear them? Right on with Rahul Kanwal's shows on IT TV. Very much doubt he would advocate transferring Siachen to Pakistan now, whatever his past stance. IT TV was one of 3 channels that 100% confirmed the success of the Balakot strikes, when global news outlets were peddling silly stuff about only trees and crows being hit.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 05 Jul 2020 21:52

US foreign policy is in the end controlled by the US deep state, their longterm policy does not change everyday with like Trumps mood - need to keep an ear out for the likes of Sec. Pompeo (ex-CIA head) and influential Senators. The Pacific pivot of the US military is real, the 3 carrier deployment in east/south east asia is real. But there are a few pro china players, plus "anti war" lobby (safe some of them have ulterior motives) in the US establishment we will have to monitor. Of course China also know this and might want to make a grand bargain with the US so they sell us down the river (re. Pompeo meeting with Xi special representative a couple weeks back).

NIE: As tensions soared after Galwan, Pompeo made quiet call to Jaishankar (10 days ago)

Our aim diplomatically should be keep the pakies out (avoid getting into a 2 front war ourselves), and keep china pinned in the pacific so they cannot turn their full attention towards us (i.e. force it prepare for a 2 front war, if not actually have to fight it).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 05 Jul 2020 21:53

ks_sachin wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:Hari sir,

We are just trying to point out the sheer lack of people on this forum without actual mil exp. jingoism comes at a cost. The purpose of this forum is to impart strategic thought but the thoughts of many here are simply fantastic, ks_sachin means well and is trying to guide this thread to realism.

When I was stuck fighting the good fight, we kicked up a lot of dirt, sure, but it was grounded in realism sir, something acutely missing here. Just my view.

Thank you sir. I am one of those guilty of having no mil exp. I just have very good teachers!!
Hari Sir I am too steeped in the OG to doubt what the forces can do...
However apologies If I came across as anything but patriotic..
Modiji is a man I admire but....I am a big fan of Yes Prime Minister...There are a lot of Humphrey Appleby's in New Delhi.


Modi has nothing to do with the conquer-Tibet imaginings on this forum. Also, I am sure Modi never watched Brit TV dramas, but I don’t think he needs to have done so to gain wisdom in how to manage bureaucracy.

There is nothing in Modi’s messaging that suggests he is going to war with China, let alone conquer Tibet. He is just telling the Chinese to not push us by going kinetic from their side. And deliberately letting them make the choice. For now onlee. The conflict won’t be over. There is no plausible scenario in which India takes the risk, & pays the price once and for all, and lizard is tamed. Maybe there will be such a scenario, but time is not ripe.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2020 22:05

KLNMurthy wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Thank you sir. I am one of those guilty of having no mil exp. I just have very good teachers!!
Hari Sir I am too steeped in the OG to doubt what the forces can do...
However apologies If I came across as anything but patriotic..
Modiji is a man I admire but....I am a big fan of Yes Prime Minister...There are a lot of Humphrey Appleby's in New Delhi.


Modi has nothing to do with the conquer-Tibet imaginings on this forum. Also, I am sure Modi never watched Brit TV dramas, but I don’t think he needs to have done so to gain wisdom in how to manage bureaucracy.

There is nothing in Modi’s messaging that suggests he is going to war with China, let alone conquer Tibet. He is just telling the Chinese to not push us by going kinetic from their side. And deliberately letting them make the choice. For now onlee. The conflict won’t be over. There is no plausible scenario in which India takes the risk, & pays the price once and for all, and lizard is tamed. Maybe there will be such a scenario, but time is not ripe.

Please do read my original post!
If you have and still write the above then Aap Shivaji and therein endeth this conversation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 05 Jul 2020 22:08

Hari Nair wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:... I am too steeped in the OG to doubt what the forces can do...
However apologies If I came across as anything but patriotic..
Modiji is a man I admire but....I am a big fan of Yes Prime Minister...There are a lot of Humphrey Appleby's in New Delhi.


I take your point.
However, I was not trying to view the issue purely through a patriotic lens.
If we consider unbiased foreign appreciations of the current situation, even the worst critic concedes that we actually have a slight edge in conventional forces, especially in the Ladakh sector.

Just a few points that need to be factored (in addition to the several others pointed out by other members), when checking out our Bat Eaters and their capabilities:

- They are hauling every single item to the front through long, exposed logistics lines. These lines are not very in number and wind through terrain that's absolutely barren and bereft of cover or vegetation. Each of these lines also run through choke points that are vulnerable to interdiction. One may argue the same is true for us, but the fact remains that their logistics lines are far more exposed and longer.

- The PLA appear to be a force that operates somewhat on its own whims. They also dabble in commercial ventures and their organisational structure appears to mirror the opaqueness of the CPC. A closed system designed for such top-down control inevitably breeds Yes-Men and usually as a consequence, may not encourage merit especially in the senior staff cadre at their HQs. Their system of Political Officers being embedded in fighting units does not appear to enhance the very important aspect of esprit-de-corps.

- Some member quote 1962 ops and the Bat Eater's 'human wave' tactics. The question is - was there really a human wave then, at all? Our analyses usually deals with the view from our side of the operations. Most of our historical narratives although detailed, invariably get meshed with emotive angles and one gets the feeling of having missed the forest for the trees. If we zoom out to the theatre level for the '62 War, its very evident that it was the loss in the Kameng Sector (ThagLa, Tawang, SeLa and BomdiLa) that resulted in the total collapse and humiliation. So what happened there?

- I would urge members to read the excellent three-part analysis by Maj Gen PJS Sandhu published in the USI Journal in 2016. Its essentially the view from the 'other side of the hill', the events have been pieced together from Chinese military literature and attempts to dispel common myths and mis-perceptions:

https://usiofindia.org/publication/usi-journal/1962-battle-of-se-la-and-bomdi-la/

Maj Gen Sandhu, himself a cavalry officer, correctly recognises that the ops in Kameng Sector, executed by the hot-shot Chinese General Zhang Guo Hua, a veteran of the Korean War, had all the classic elements of manoeuvre warfare -

To quote Gen Sandhu:
"The operational plan envisaged multi-directional advance, wide outflanking moves, encirclement and splitting up of Indian
positions, and tackling them piecemeal since none of the positions could be reinforced. The attack was carried out with such speed and ferocity that it completely unhinged the Indian defences and pulverised the Indian Command, resulting in panic and often contradictory decisions. Surprise was also achieved at tactical, operational and strategic levels. For instance, while the main objective of the Chinese lay in the Western Sector, the main effort was concentrated in the Eastern Sector so as to deliver a decisive blow. It was a masterly stroke of the strategy of indirect approach. Diplomatic front was also not neglected; the neutrality of the Soviet Union in case of an Indo-China war was assured"

-The Chinese had a total strength advantage of only 2:1 in Kameng (not sufficient to ensure victory in mountain warfare). About 22,000 troops against our 11,000.

- Our defenses and logistics line were aligned on an east-west axis. The Chinese advanced simultaneously on trails from north to south and in most cases, their forces were having limited ammunition with very limited logistics support. Their contact with Indian forces were on multiple points - simultaneous attacks, attacks in depth (using flanking moves) and their timing appeared to indicate to our forces, that the enemy was here, there and everywhere. The ultimate Centre-of-Gravity - the minds of the Indian Commanders, were hit.

- What is even more remarkable is that in '62, the Chinese in Kameng Sector were even using small trails (such as the Bailey's Trail) to walk in and infiltrate using ponies and porters. The trails were narrow and their forces were definitely vulnerable during the infil stage, had they been detected.

To quote Gen Sandhu in the Kameng Sector:
"- Marshal Liu compared the Indian Army dispositions with an analogy – ‘a copper head with the tail made of tin, a stiff back and a soft under belly’.
After some debate, their operational concept that was evolved entailed : ‘smashing the head (Se La), cutting-off the tail (Bomdi La), snapping at the waist (Road Se La – Dirang Dzong) and dissecting the belly (Dirang Dzong)."

Gen Sandhu even compares the ops in the sector with Battle of Chosin Reservoir - where the Chinese had battled the US forces in Korea using similar manoeuvres.

The point being that the Chinese then in 1962 were a thoroughly battle-inoculated force led by a hot-shot general.

Fast forward to 58 years later- their generation of soldiers and generals that fought so many battles are gone. Today the shoe is definitely on the other foot. And our present day Bat Eaters with their shiny pieces of kit may chose to lay claim to their legacy, but are they worthy of it?


Sir thanks for the above.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 05 Jul 2020 22:14

CRamS wrote:Guys, other than Trump mouthing something useless about talking to both India and China, and Pompeo welcoming India's ban on Chincom apps, I haven't hear much from Unkil. And as a barometer of this, I skimmed through Uncle's brown boy Fareed Zakaria's pedantic BS on CNN, but didn't come across anything. Usually, he covers whatever it is that is of interest to Unkil like a loyal foot solder. So am I right that India Chincom spat as of yet is not much use to Unkil?

Reason I ask is because there is a lot of talk on Indian TV debates that there is an 'international consensus' building against Chincoms. On the surface this sounds plausible given Trump bahadur's strident attacks on Kung Flu and such, but by and large I am not seeing any teeth or muscle to take on Chincoms, much less help us SDREs in our battle against Chincoms. Closest support I see is from France. But to the best of my knowledge no country has outright condemned Chincom's India land grab.


The West does not want any Asian power to challenge them...
Right now, they have two potential candidates out of which China is not in their control... Only India can be manipulated by them...
If a war happens and whether we win or lose, China will be weakened and they can try to rein it in... Even if we win, there are elements in our political environment through which they can manipulate us anyway...

So, there won't be any support for us beyond supply of arms... They will be more than happy to see us destroy each other...
All the talk in our news channels is for TRPs and nothing else...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 05 Jul 2020 22:27

The PLA will try to replicate the strategy they applied in 62. But with better kit. They will one advantage in that, PLA will get to fire the first shot.

Maybe similar to 62, they might prefer to go for offensive even with a 2:1 ratio.With rockets and artillery barrages, there will be initial shock, which we have to absorb. Their attacks may be on the entire LAC or limited to Ladakh.

It is imperative for us that, irrespective of their area of action, we need to initiate action all along the LAC. What we missed in 62 was having enough men on LAC. Now is not the case. We have enough men positioned, where we want.

PLA will get to fire the first shot, but we should NOT give them the initiative. Got to be 65 style counter offensive to mess their force balance and push them in to a defensive war.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 05 Jul 2020 22:33

nam wrote:They were peers, commanding different panzer divisions during the French campaign.


I believe Heinz Guderian commanded an Armoured Corps during the initial attack phase of WWII, while Ervin Rommel commanded an Armoured Division during the same phase.

So, in a sense, Guderian was senior and importantly, also a mentor in the concept of armoured warfare.

However, Rommel was the upstart, his 7 Panzer Div earned the nickname 'Ghost Division' - in 1940 in the France campaign, they advanced so fast that they appeared were they weren't expected, and even the German HQ did not know their location. Rommel lead from the front, in his tank.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 22:38

Guderian outranked rommel by comm date, though they shared the same rank.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 05 Jul 2020 22:40

Okie before the discussion drifts towards rommel, guderian, etc please understand it is OT

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 22:41

nam wrote:The PLA will try to replicate the strategy they applied in 62. But with better kit. They will one advantage in that, PLA will get to fire the first shot.


Highly unlikely. Tactical considerations on ground pretty much rule out “62 repeat”. Different times. Different strategy. Different purpose. And I wouldn’t be so sure about them firing the first shot. Remember the Galwan bayonet charge didn’t exactly happen on own land.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby skumar » 05 Jul 2020 22:43

Hari Nair wrote:Define - "Pickle", may I request?
Exactly what sort of "pickle" are we in? And the Bat Eaters, I presume are starting their picnic into Ladakh??
Its also a bit surprising that one feels the speech is just simply rhetoric...
Mil acquisitions is one part of the picture, really. In that part of 'Down Under' (where your appear to be), just check on the state of readiness of the forces and the problems therein.
It not a perfect world, 'mate'.

And the Bat Eaters may just be advised to prepare for a R-E-A-L-I-T-Y check.


Sir, I would respectfully point out -

1. We have not done a good job of promoting our own MIC in the last 6-7 years, I would not even refer to previous decades under insidious regimes.

a. If a defense contractor has to write about unpaid bills, it is a sorry state of affairs.
b. If we are scrounging for money for orders for indigenous equipment while we seem to find it for foreign maal, it says something about us.
c. If we reduce defense spending as % of GDP in an era where we need to play massive catchup for the sins of the past, it gives a message to our budding MIC that GoI is not serious.

2. We have not cleaned up the bureaucracy, there are still many senior officers who can provide the requisite support to the enemy by enabling delays.

3. We are thin skinned, worried about being labelled fascist when the times call for merciless action.

While it will never be a perfect world, we can always make it better, the question is of degree, not of intent.

Our defense forces are in a good position today and we will be able to hold our own. We have also given a strong message to the Middle Kingdom and reminded them about their mortality but gaming this into the future, are we ready for a long term widespread conflict beyond this limited sparring? The winds are blowing.
Last edited by skumar on 05 Jul 2020 22:48, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 22:46

abhik wrote:US foreign policy is in the end controlled by the US deep state, their longterm policy does not change everyday with like Trumps mood - need to keep an ear out for the likes of Sec. Pompeo (ex-CIA head) and influential Senators.


No different than own case. Our policies both foreign and domestic are deeply controlled by our own deep state and savagely fought over if any change is sought. This is why we are where we are. Communist infiltration across the board at all levels.

https://theprint.in/india/assault-on-ri ... er/455061/

Example of compromised people. Pay attention to the number and the timing. And if you think this does not extend to the military, you are in for a ride.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 05 Jul 2020 22:49

Rs_singh wrote:
Highly unlikely. Tactical considerations on ground pretty much rule out “62 repeat”. Different times. Different strategy. Different purpose. And I wouldn’t be so sure about them firing the first shot. Remember the Galwan bayonet charge didn’t exactly happen on own land.


Galwan bayonet charge was a local decision. PLA intrusion in to 3-4 areas was a command decision. That is the difference. PLA & CCP have greater freedom to initiate action, compared to our political leadership.

I am not saying the result will be a repeat of 62. What I am saying is PLA might initiate action across multiple points at once. Kit is not a problem for PLA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Y I Patel » 05 Jul 2020 22:50

Anoop wrote:YIP,

Thank you again for providing food for thought. Here are some of my own:

Why are those two passes (marked as Na-La Shan Kou and Dumchele La on the map) critical for the Chinese when they have a black top road passing along the Indus river valley on the West Bank of the river



@Anoop

To understand significance of the passes in the eastern ridge facing Indus, compare Dungti to Demchok with the area Murgo to Shyok Bend (i.e. lower Shyok Valley before it turns westwards, and including Galwan confluence with Shyok.)

In the latter, we have the east bank of the Shyok and are fighting savagely to prevent the Chinese from controlling heights overlooking Shyok. That is why we can still use DSDBO road for legit operational purposes. Simple fact is that we can build a four lane expressway from Dungti to Demchok, but have no control over it because the Chinese sit at the heights overlooking it from the east. This is where Dumchele La comes in - it permits their control over those heights, much as Galwan valley would permit control over the heights overlooking DSDBO road.

So if we want to attack G219 or threaten Ngari, we can't attack southwards from Demchok because we will not be able to concentrate units without being observed and interdicted. We have to attack west to east, through passes like Dumchele La. East of that ridge, there is an armour friendly plain where we would turn southwards, towards Jara La. Jara La is the gateway to Ngari and G219.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sidhant » 05 Jul 2020 22:51

LakshmanPST wrote:Snip...
So, there won't be any support for us beyond supply of arms... They will be more than happy to see us destroy each other...
All the talk in our news channels is for TRPs and nothing else...

Apart from supply of arms/technology what else do we really need from West or any other nation for that matter? We have more than enough highly motivated and well trained manpower to take on the bat eaters and even the porkis simultaneously. I for one would be very happy if we can get stable supply of arms and ammunition, rest of the world is welcome to grab a beer, popcorn and enjoy the fireworks that we will put up lighting up the bat eaters and porkis.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 22:56

Galwan bayonet charge was a local decision. PLA intrusion in to 3-4 areas was a command decision. That is the difference. PLA & CCP have greater freedom to initiate action, compared to our political leadership.

I am not saying the result will be a repeat of 62. What I am saying is PLA might initiate action across multiple points at once. Kit is not a problem for PLA.


No.
PLA is the CCP and decision was political at the CMC level.
PLA will attempt to initiate action across multiple fronts. We can pre-empt or take what’s coming. I agree with you there. Kit is definitely not a problem for the PLA but It doesn’t disproportionately disadvantage IA. What I’m more worried about is EW. They have dedicated EW folk at the btn level. Also, a well layered AA network. These are two aspects of their orbat that worry me the most.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dinesh_kimar » 05 Jul 2020 23:00

samirdiw wrote:Mistakes were made in the last few years on not pushing ahead with home grown weapons.


This point is very mysterious.

They spoke much about swarajya, when in the opposition.

They did Make in India, they had parliament majority, they had funds for foreign acquisitions and forex reserves were available in record numbers.

Yet they didn't order hardware.

This one point alone might make the difference between victory and defeat in the current situation in Ladakh/other areas.

Why? What was tying their hands and preventing action?

Like Arnab says, the nation deserves to know.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 23:02

dinesh_kimar wrote:
samirdiw wrote:Mistakes were made in the last few years on not pushing ahead with home grown weapons.


This point is very mysterious.

Why? What was tying their hands and preventing action?

Like Arnab says, the nation deserves to know.


I answered this question above, Dinesh. Take a look.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby dinesh_kimar » 05 Jul 2020 23:06

Rs_singh wrote:Guderian outranked rommel by comm date, though they shared the same rank.


This is your answer? Sorry, I do not understand, I'm from rural area

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sanju » 05 Jul 2020 23:12

I beleive Rs_singh was referring to the post about Deep State in India.

Edit:
Rs_singh wrote:<snip>

No different than own case. Our policies both foreign and domestic are deeply controlled by our own deep state and savagely fought over if any change is sought. This is why we are where we are. Communist infiltration across the board at all levels.

https://theprint.in/india/assault-on-ri ... er/455061/

Example of compromised people. Pay attention to the number and the timing. And if you think this does not extend to the military, you are in for a ride.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 05 Jul 2020 23:14

Sidhant wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:Snip...
So, there won't be any support for us beyond supply of arms... They will be more than happy to see us destroy each other...
All the talk in our news channels is for TRPs and nothing else...

Apart from supply of arms/technology what else do we really need from West or any other nation for that matter? We have more than enough highly motivated and well trained manpower to take on the bat eaters and even the porkis simultaneously. I for one would be very happy if we can get stable supply of arms and ammunition, rest of the world is welcome to grab a beer, popcorn and enjoy the fireworks that we will put up lighting up the bat eaters and porkis.



Don't underestimate their intelligence, or overestimate ours post Gujral

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 Jul 2020 23:21

Varoon Shekhar wrote:^^^
Right on with Rahul Kanwal's shows on IT TV. Very much doubt he would advocate transferring Siachen to Pakistan now....


His not advocating transferring Siachin to Pakistan is very much because of a BJP Govt. at center for last 6 years. Any congi-commie govt. at center and he will immediately onto turning Siachin into a mountain of peace again like his father.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 05 Jul 2020 23:23

Manish_Sharma wrote:
Varoon Shekhar wrote:^^^
Right on with Rahul Kanwal's shows on IT TV. Very much doubt he would advocate transferring Siachen to Pakistan now....


His not advocating transferring Siachin to Pakistan is very much because of a BJP Govt. at center for last 6 years. Any congi-commie govt. at center and he will immediately onto turning Siachin into a mountain of peace again like his father.


Exactly, people like him know how to lay low for a while. Once a traitor, always a traitor.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 23:24

Trouble is, these folk will start with siachen. They have grand plans about the valley, sir creek, all 7 NE states and Leh. All to be given away to the party on the “other side” for aman ki aasha and a scotch on the rocks in gymkhana

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 05 Jul 2020 23:26

Raveen,

If things keep going the way they are, you’ll be amazed at how many of these “intellectuals” come out of the woodwork and into the light to do their masters bidding and save their sorry ass!

Here is another one advocating India to not be expansionist. By our very own coupta ji,

https://theprint.in/national-interest/i ... sm/454258/


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