India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 18 Jul 2020 00:22

arshyam wrote:Let's see now. Over the last few years (3-4):
  1. Roads:
    • 200+km DSDBO road got completed.
    • Sasoma-Saser La- Murgo road works happening.
    • New bridge across the Shyok near the Galwan river.
    • New road into the Galwan valley up to the triangle area
    • Road through Umling La completed, providing an alternative route to Demchok. This is also now the highest motorable pass in the world at 19300 ft.
    • Road up to Lipulekh pass completed.
    • The Tezpur-Tenga-Bomdi La-Dirang-Se La-Tawang road, as fully metalled 2-lane road got completed.
    • Alternate route to Tenga from Orang in the plains (OKSRT) road got completed.
    • Work on the Shergaon-Manda La-Tawang road, bypassing Se La has made significant progress. This project also has spurs to connect to Dirang, Se La as well as the Bhutan border near the Sakteng wildlife sanctuary.
    • Alternate route to Tawang (Lumla) via Bhutan (Trashigang) proposed to Bhutan as a BRO project. This would reduce the distance from Guwahati by 150km.
  2. Tunnels:
    • Chenani-Nasrani tunnel on the Jammu-Srinagar route completed.
    • Alternative tunnel to the existing Jawahar tunnel (Banihal-Qazigund) to be opened this year or next.
    • Rohtang tunnel completed (road not operational yet, though, but allows emergency traffic).
    • Work on the 14-km Baralacha La tunnel under way. Remaining two mountain passes on the Manali-Leh route, at Lachunlang and Taglang also in various stages (idea is to make this an all-weather route).
    • Zoji La tunnel work underway.
    • In HP, Shinkula tunnel work in (connecting Lahaul and Zanskar) underway.
    • In Arunachal, Se La tunnel work under way.
  3. Railways:
    • Jammu-Srinagar-Baramulla rail line is now approved for extension up to Kupwara. Not China related, but is still infra work benefiting border security.
    • Char Dham railway project underway.
    • doubling and electrification of the railway track through the chicken's neck area between Kishanganj-Siliguri completed.
    • Double track further completed up to Alipurduar via the southern route (Jalpaiguri-Coochbehar).
    • Doubling between Guwahati-Lumding completed.
    • Electrification in progress towards Rangiya.
    • A few (3?) years ago, the old MG track along the north banks of the Brahmaputra between Rangiya and Murkongselek (near the point where the Brahmaputra enters the plains of Assam from Arunachal) got operationalized as a BG track. This included spurs to Tezpur and Naharlagun (Itanagar).
    • A cross-river section connecting the above line at Siripani to Dibrugarh Town in the southern banks got operational as well, via the Bogibeel bridge.
    • Further rail work in good progress beyond Lumding via the Barak Valley to connect each state in the NE in progress (not directly related to China, but would help in moving logistics across these sectors if needed). Agartala is already operational, with a direct train to as far south as Chennai and Bangalore.
  4. Bridges:
    • Various bridges that were hanging fire for decades, literally, got completed.
    • Examples: Bogibeel, Bhupen Hazarika (Dhola-Sadiya), etc.
    • New bridges to be built across the Brahmaputra:
    • Majuli-Jorhat
    • Sibsagar-North Lakhimpur
    • Silghat-north bank near Tezpur (this will be a rail bridge in addition to the existing road Kalia Bhomora bridge),
    • new Saraighat bridge as part of the Guwahati bypass highway (Bharatmala highway program).
    • These bridges will ensure a crossing every 100km or so (see my old post for the full list: viewtopic.php?p=2312590#p2312590)
  5. Various operational ALGs have been upgraded with more underway - remember the C-17 landing at Tuting?

Anyone can see the list above and imagine the impact on our logistics potential. But we have senior posters who refuse to look at any of this and deride it as snail's pace and a joke. The joke is on them, actually!



very very good post thanks!! Always knew it was happening, these are the details.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 00:22

Manish,

Do you see the problem here? They’ll keep taking potshots at each other because of complete apathy and disregard from their bosses aka politicians who can be least bothered about matters military. Go have chai biskoot in ladakh and take pretty pictures instead.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 18 Jul 2020 02:38

Thats quite a few gun positions ~8-9 KM from finger 4. Any idea what guns they may be, also what range they could have?
d-atis
@detresfa_
Satellite images of #PangongTso support positions (#China PLA) scanned with
@SimTack
, aid in the discovery of a suspected weapons position 10Km east of the 'Foxhole' point & a field hospital in the sector
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ManuJ » 18 Jul 2020 04:04

Anoop wrote:Also gives context to the statement by Gen. Anbu about the need for a tunnel from "Lamaryulu or thereabouts" to Thoise for all weather access. Once that is done, it replenishes the axis from Thoise to support the defence of Pangong Tso and attack across Hot Springs/Gogra.

A tunnel from Lamayuru to Thoise would be around 50 kms long! Not happening.
Much more doable and serving multiple purposes would be a tunnel under Khardung La (10-15 kms).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 18 Jul 2020 04:40

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/12 ... 1929624577
d-atis @detresfa_

Investigating news reports regarding #China's PLA Air-force deployments at #Hotan Aiport with @SimTack, satellite images help assess the readiness state of fighters, EW/AEW&C platforms & Air defense units suspected to be in response for the #IndiaChinaFaceOff
Image

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 8796782595
Surface-to-Air Missile:
- Missile: HQ-9 (Chinese copy of Russian S-300)
- Radar in center of Transporter-Erector-Launchers (TELs): HT-233 Fire Control Radar
- 2nd elevated radar site: Long range air surveillance Radar (can't make out the type but my guess is YLC-2V)
In cases like these, where the Air defense units are fixed in deployment, they would be the first ones to get Brahmosed especially the Radars.

Only then IAF will go in to bomb the airfield or nearby locations.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Jarita » 18 Jul 2020 06:06

Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@K_Singh1469:

MHA putting @SpokespersonMoD to shame once again

“The security forces have been asked to provide their requirement and to cut down on import of arms and ammunitions which can be easily developed with the help of local manufacturers,”

https://t.co/PCG4aMj992

https://twitter.com/KSingh_1469/status/ ... 62498?s=19



I so appreciate that

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 18 Jul 2020 06:44

Rs_singh wrote:Manish,

Do you see the problem here? They’ll keep taking potshots at each other because of complete apathy and disregard from their bosses aka politicians who can be least bothered about matters military. Go have chai biskoot in ladakh and take pretty pictures instead.


Nope! You are wrong. Any good gesture made in favour of Swadeshi Weapons has to praised to high heavens. Your cynicism is unwelcome. We are lucky to have current leadership in power. Imagine manmohan singh OR st. antony going to LAC and giving warnings to china. They are not doing drama, they are politicians but Nationalist Patriotic Politicians who have scraped Article 370 & 35A. Who made so many roads and bridges that Shri Arshyam has listed in his beautiful post. Probably their concrete steps to strengthen Bharatvarsh has provoked china to current moves as AAPian hs panag says. USA appointed PM manmohan wanted to turn Siachin over to chinese and porkis. At least there are elements in this Govt. that are pushing armed forces towards Swadeshi. We have to support that. You never know this small letter may snowball into big avalanche of Swadeshi Weapons in few years.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby vijayk » 18 Jul 2020 07:02

https://www.firstpost.com/india/chinas- ... 10401.html
China’s tactical retreat too little, too late; From India to US, global hardening of posture evident, Xi Jinping may pay for overreach
Under Xi Jinping, China now shows a greater amount of risk-taking ability and goes against the grain of its established foreign policy principles.

Last week we witnessed what seemed like a tactical retreat from China. During a video conference Wednesday on Sino-US relations co-organised by a Chinese and an American think tank, China’s vice foreign minister Le Yucheng extended an olive branch towards the US, calling for dialogue and cooperation, warned against economic decoupling, cited past history of close engagement and urged both nations to “accommodate each other’s core interests and concerns.”

A day later, Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi, at another video conference, read from the same script. Setting aside the familiar ‘wolf warrior’ rhetoric, a conciliatory Wang repeated the call for a dialogue “putting all issues on table”. He admitted that bilateral relation is “facing the most severe challenge since establishment of diplomatic ties”, urged the US to set aside its “paranoia” and “suspicion” about China and sort issues of cooperation and competition into separate boxes so that overall ties remain stable.

Coordinated messaging from China’s top two diplomats in the space of a day isn’t a coincidence, rather an attempt to pare down the temperature and stop the ball rolling towards an all-out confrontation. It is obvious that China is worried about the trajectory of Sino-US relationship. Beijing wants to lessen the degree of hostility and increase engagement with Washington.


Chinese ambassador’s “outreach towards India” is unconvincing. It is little else apart from a justification of Chinese aggression in Ladakh and a bit of dishonest and insincere semantical jugglery. For instance, Sun correctly assumes that both countries share “long-term strategic interests” but puts the onus of “disrupting the bilateral relationship” and mutual “suspicion and friction” on India. Sun even manages to blame Indians for the dip in ties, for making “false assumptions about China’s intentions, exaggerating conflicts and provoking confrontations.”

“I have noticed some emerging opinions in recent days which repudiate the essence of China-India friendship due to the border-related incidents, make false assumptions about China’s intentions, exaggerate conflicts and provoke confrontations, and regard a close neighbor over thousands of years as “enemies” and “strategic threats”. It is not the fact. It is harmful indeed and not helpful,” reads his address.

Perhaps it was the Indian Army and not the PLA, that crossed over to the Chinese side of the LAC at several points in Ladakh, started raising constructions and triggered the conflict? No one can blame the Chinese Communist Party for lacking an effort to build a post-truth narrative.

Sun needs to be reminded that it is China that has repeatedly broken India’s trust by raiding its sovereign territory, flouted all norms, agreements and principles of peaceful coexistence several times through its predation, territorial aggrandizement and salami-slicing tactics, and caused the current crisis by going back on its words and killing Indian soldiers. For China to now preach the very values that it trampled on is amusing. But we need not press a point that’s obvious.

The larger issue is China’s ham-handed attempt at reconciliation. While the disengagement process is underway at the LAC — recent reports suggest that China is dragging its feet on pulling back from Pangong Tso and Depsang plains despite recent military commander-level talks that went on for 15 hours — Sun’s address to India betrays a sense of urgency that bilateral ties must not be allowed to go more astray than it already has.


No one is talking about an economic decoupling, but it is well within India’s ability to inflict considerable pain on China (while accepting some self-harm) and deter Beijing’s attempts at gaining global technological leadership. As has been previously argued by this commentator, New Delhi’s decision to ban 59 Chinese apps including the wildly popular TikTok on grounds of national security is a serious setback for China and it may interminably damage the ability of Chinese startups to dominate the tech landscape by denying access to the largest overseas market.

India’s move may be even more damaging for China in terms of setting a precedent, and the buzz of Australia or the US following India’s footsteps in banning the popular video-sharing app is growing louder. US secretary of state Mike Pompeo has already given such signals and latest report indicate 25 US Congressional leaders have urged President Donald Trump to “take decisive action to protect the American people’s privacy and safety” by banning TikTok that has been accused of data theft and acting as a CCP surveillance tool.

“Banishment from India, which has more than 500 million smartphone users, hobbles China’s effort to compete with US firms like Facebook, Google and Amazon for ‘the next billion users,’ people turning to the internet for the first time to shop, search for information or make digital payments,” observes AEI fellow Sadanand Dhume in Wall Street Journal.

Nor is the impact restricted only to apps. State-owned telecom firms BSNL and MTNL have been asked not to use Huawei or ZTE equipment in its infrastructure. The government is apparently leaning on private players to follow suit, and it seems increasingly likely that Huawei may be kept away from India’s 5G rollout — a market that the Chinese tech giant desperately needs to access after suffering reverses in the West.

The fact that India’s telecom giant Jio claims to have developed an indigenous, cost-effective “complete 5G solution from scratch that can be field deployed next year” queers the pitch further for Huawei.

Chinese interest in keeping bilateral trade untroubled from geopolitical squabbles is intense, and the reason is evident. In 1999-2000, India’s bilateral trade deficit with China stood at $743.85 million. In just about two decades, that gap has widened to $48.66 billion. The trade stood at $53.56 billion in 2018-19 and $63 billion in 2017-18. Conducting business with India has been profitable for China.


While this may explain Chinese outreach towards India, what lies behind Beijing’s tactical retreat and lowering of rhetoric vis-à-vis the US? China’s role in mishandling the coronavirus outbreak and suppressing data leading to the spread of the global pandemic has already prompted a global backlash. Beijing made it worse through its ‘wolf warrior’ diplomacy and weaponisation of medical aid and supplies. Consequently, a majority of the public in western democracies view China as a malign force.

China is not just pissing off the western public. Beijing’s post-pandemic aggression — raising tension in the South China Sea by harassing littoral nations, violating India’s sovereignty through unilateral action, murdering 20 Indian soldiers during another border flare-up, bullying Australia through economic coercion for Canberra’s probe demand into origin of the Wuhan virus and finally, taking away Hong Kong’s semi-autonomous status through a draconian law whose jurisdiction covers practically the entire planet — is reshaping attitudes in Asia and toughening American policy approach towards Beijing across the political spectrum.

A series of high-ranking officials in the Donald Trump administration has, in recent past, identified China as America’s biggest military, ideological and geopolitical threat that seeks to supplant the US as the global superpower while making the global ground fertile for the decline of democracy and rise of authoritarianism.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 18 Jul 2020 08:29

Anoop wrote:9. Contact between Army Commander level and MEA to get better synergy in the CHG (Crisis Handling Group?), instead of going through MoD.

Must be CSG (China Study Group), a group of people (including R&AW, MEA, MoD etc) who have been advising GoI for over 50 years now on China matters. It was this group, on whose suggestion that it would unnecessarily provoke the Chinese, that our PPs are somewhat west of LAC. Of course, the group composition changes over time.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 18 Jul 2020 08:48

Thanks, SSridhar. That makes a lot more sense.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby srin » 18 Jul 2020 09:59

Rs_singh wrote:There seems to be a consensus amongst former Northern Army Commanders that we were indeed caught napping. whether this is on the ITBP/MHA side, int side or MOD side is not something known yet and won't be for a while. int community folks have been repeatedly saying that they passed warning about this in early may and the Army brushed it off as routine.


What were we caught napping about ? And what would have been the right response if we weren't napping ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 18 Jul 2020 10:01

Broomcleaning reqd. for the CSG. New faces needed. In fact I think in the TOI,a report about our For.Min. giving it to "Rahu G",pardon the pun(!), that the FM has come in for sharp criticism from his own partymen. The entire PRC policy has gone down the loo. We need men of steel,plus more "India first" mil. strategists,with a pro-active mindset,not that of appeasement of the Neville Chamberlain or MMS mould. We need to network more with Taiwan on intel,etc.,upgrade relations,dump the " one China" policy into the sewer. The Taiwanese probably have the best intel on the PRC and we must carvd out a mutually beneficial relationship with Taipei.

PS: RS, MI-35 touting only for temporary lease,like other birds in the nest,MIG-29s,M2Ks,MKI equivs,and Rafales. We can order extras of some of these birds which are still under production,or new attack helos,cheaper than Apaches while ordering large qtys. of LCHs from HAL which sorely require accelerated production on all fronts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 18 Jul 2020 10:06

1) i hope we are keeping a watch on the PLA logistic train..how they are supporting their deployed troops ? 2) any idea why rohtang tunnel was done 1st and not zozila ??

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby srin » 18 Jul 2020 10:10

Mollick.R wrote:India's shopping for lightweight mountain-friendly tanks post China tussles
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-to-buy-light-tanks-for-mountain-warfare/articleshow/76969376.cms
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau Last Updated: Jul 15, 2020, 07:10 AM IST
[...]


In the current conflict, given that we've got T-72s and T-90s up there, what can the Chinese light tank engage ? And if we also have our own light tank - what can it do that a T-90 can't do ?

Either you have a full fledged MBT or you have a light "tank destroyer" (a glorified IFV types) with ATGMs (that can take out a tank) and a 40mm gun (that can take out light armoured vehicles).

In the plains/plateaued terrain of Tibet, I suspect that a heavy mortar carrier would actually be quite handy. But don't see anything about that.

Heck - I can't believe that I'm batting for T-90 :eek:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 10:25

Manish,

So people who disagree with you ideologically have no place in a democratic discourse? Or is it that their allegiance to a political belief that’s not to your liking the issue? Leave alone decades of military and conventional op xp lost to pretty much everyone in this current coc?

Ah you’re claimed “beautiful” post and so called achievements about border infrastructure are mostly about 1000km odd roads being built in what say 6 yrs? For projects started when? 1975. So you’ve achieved 300km odd per year of road building in 2000s. Hmm, kudos. Not to mention most “approvals” are “in principle” which mean jack all when it comes to actually putting your money on the bet.

Leave aside political affiliations, swadeshi weapons you say? Where are the orders for LCH, LCA, dhanush, ATAGS, MBT mk2, Namica, helina? Any? I’ll believe it when I see it. Thank you very much.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 10:31

srin wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:


What were we caught napping about ? And what would have been the right response if we weren't napping ?


Failure to anticipate PLAGF mobilization. Remember our mobilization is a counter to them, not a preemption.
Failure to have adequate inventory of arms, courtesy myriad of ad hoc emergency purchases. Including domestic platforms.
We are caught responding to them, not getting them to respond to us. We are stuck in the OODA loop. Not them.

Ideal response? Force build up preemptively to start. Name one move GOI has made which says militarily we mean business? None.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 18 Jul 2020 10:53

My assessment of why the Fingers 4-8 area are the sticking points for the Chinese - it's not for operational reasons, it's for political reasons. As Hari Nair Sir stated a long time ago, those deployments are largely static, due to the terrain that prevents vehicular movement into Finger 4 from Finger 5. However, given that they carved out a map of China near Finger 4 (thanks to their Political Commissar!), they can't very well give it up without a significant Indian concession and have Indian boots step on it while we patrol! And I suspect that we are not giving them any this time around. In 2013 we agreed to dismantle some radar sites 250 km away in another sector to defuse the situation. I suspect no such accommodation is happening this time I also hope we reverse those concessions we made then, as a punitive measure. Hence this long drawn out disengagement affair.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 18 Jul 2020 11:03

I would love for the MEA to respond to the Chinese Ambassador's message with something along the lines of "We note with satisfaction that China has provided us their roadmap for de-escalation while agreeing to reverse their attempts at aggression. We are happy that they see the error of their ways that almost destroyed our trust in their good faith. We will verify that their actions on the ground match their announced willingness to restore status quo ante March 2020".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 18 Jul 2020 11:27

Lt Gen Narasimhan was quite emphatic in that discussion on Swantra TV (link shared by SSridhar sir earlier) that we were not caught napping - he cites our commensurate build-up at every face-off point as evidence. It's only the media (and some, certain "experienced" gents here) who keep harping about being caught napping, using high-faultin terms like OODA, etc. We need to remember the media gets its information a few days late given their propensity to sit on their asses in Delhi, and even the intrepid ones won't exactly be allowed at the forward areas so they could give live reports. We have learnt our lessons from Kargil, I'd daresay. Apart from this tribe, the responsible ones (there are a few, thankfully) would hold off reporting something when requested, which while honourable, also adds to the delay - net net, we get news as though its a fair accompli for us, whereas the reality may not be that.

I hope people remember the breathless coverage of a 22-yo Kiwi who became an expert in identifying tactical deployments from hundreds of kilometers above the earth, and most people bought his output hook, line and sinker. Remember the helipad at the Galwan river triangle that was built by the Chinese at a "furious pace"? Turns out it was our own, and no one paused to ask, why the heck would the PLA build a helipad right in front of our post across the river (which was what we thought we knew then) in the middle of the most deadly face-off in decades - making their comings and goings tactically risky? Wouldn't it have been better for them to build it in a more secure location away from our eyes or at least where we can't fire at them?

So let's be a bit circumspect while drawing conclusions. We don't know the full picture, and somehow make our assumptions about an Army that fought in '62 - back then a lot of opprobrium was well deserved. But it is not the same force since and has been restricted by the political class most of the time - now, even that has reduced significantly. The logistics tail has also improved by leaps and bounds, derisive comments by certain "experienced" quarters notwithstanding.

[Edited for grammar]

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 11:35

Arshyam,

If you’re referring to me, perhaps you’d like to pick the rifle and march a 100m at 15k before you make those comments. As for my comments, there are multiple people freely echoing the same through multiple sources. Takes nothing to be an armchair warrior does it?

And high what terms? Re ooda.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 18 Jul 2020 11:59

Ah, of course - the old "you don't have my experience" trick. It's interesting that you are the only poster on this forum (among other veterans) who keeps falling back to this line of argument, while also deigning to be condescending to everything not to your liking. There is a good reason these gents command respect in this forum - they don't fall back on their service record for every third post and take the time to post thoughtful insights. The series of recent posts on the Air Force thread is instructive in this regard. Anyway, coming back to your question, since I definitely don't have the experience you require, you could listen to the source I quoted - I am sure you'll find it instructive, and please feel free to contradict him. Of course, I hope you'd consider a former Commander of III Corps as someone with the experience you require of the people here.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 12:03

Arshyam, what makes you think I’m quoting my experience? I’m only stating what, for instance, gen panag and gen hooda have said, on record. I’m a nobody. Condescending? Hmm. DSSC(AWC) teaches to you to critically analyze every piece of info out there. My bad for relying on my school. And I won’t contradict a fellow brother come what may. So take what you will. I had a similar conversation with your ilk regarding Galwan. Clearly common sense is not so common. This is the end of this. Move on.

I’ll state here openly . I’m not the veteran you think I am. Conventional ops and COIN ops are two different games.
Last edited by Rs_singh on 18 Jul 2020 12:23, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 18 Jul 2020 12:05

^^ I've said what I had to say, and have nothing further. I'll disengage.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 18 Jul 2020 12:17

SSridhar wrote:... China Study Group... It was this group, on whose suggestion that it would unnecessarily provoke the Chinese, that our PPs are somewhat west of LAC.


Regardless of past reasons for this craven appeasement, I hope it is a thing of the past.

Philip wrote:Broom cleaning reqd. for the CSG.


Amen!!

Rs_singh wrote: We are caught responding to them, not getting them to respond to us. We are stuck in the OODA loop. Not them.


Ah yes, re. the OODA thing: the OO part is fine, but we (as a nation) seem to have trouble with the DA part of the concept. Deciding / acting are absolutely "haraam" concepts to the Indian mantri/babu complex. Much better to tip-toe around, walking on eggshells, to avoid "provoking China".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 12:17

arshyam wrote:^^ I've said what I had to say, and have nothing further. I'll disengage.


Disengage? From what? A coherent argument made contrary to your propaganda? You say one guy stated something. The same guy who went on record and accepted PLA intrusions at multiple points? The same guy who said PLA is denying our territory to us? Please. Be reasonable. This isn’t a you vs me. This is a us vs them. And I refuse to blindly follow what the GOI puts out. Case in point, doklam.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 12:21

Roop,
I’ve been saying this repeatedly here and catching flak for it. The mantra/babu/IA complex survives on the yes man complex. The mid to junior management in the military is IGNORED. All the hell we raise in the academy is for nothing. Only to be let down by powers that be cowering in fear of this or that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 18 Jul 2020 12:27

Rs_singh wrote:Arshyam,

If you’re referring to me, perhaps you’d like to pick the rifle and march a 100m at 15k before you make those comments. As for my comments, there are multiple people freely echoing the same through multiple sources. Takes nothing to be an armchair warrior does it?

And high what terms? Re ooda.


1) Can u give an area wise sitrep on the chinese intrusion/disengagement?
2) If i understood u right, the progress on roads has not been satisfactory? but isnt that a factor of money put into the projects and the 100's of clearances required for road building near the borders? the point being made was probably that the road building given indian conditions/constraints has been v good in last 6 yrs.
3) U r right, that comments of ex army commanders should be taken seriously. my question is how clued up are ex army commanders wrt happenings on the border? the chini moved 100's of km across open terrain to come to the contested areas. Assuming u and ex commanders are right it only means we dont adequately still monitor happenings around the border and in hinterland?

Thnx

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby srin » 18 Jul 2020 12:30

Rs_singh wrote:
srin wrote:
What were we caught napping about ? And what would have been the right response if we weren't napping ?


Failure to anticipate PLAGF mobilization. Remember our mobilization is a counter to them, not a preemption.

So, what you are saying is that as soon as the PLA mobilized for their exercises, we should have mobilized the Army ? Doesn't make sense. Because again - responding to PLA mobilization with our own mobilization would mean stuck in OODA loop, no ?

What would make sense is to keep alert and monitor, have faith in the forces to counter if they do something threatening or crosses our red lines. In this case, I can't fault the response - they blocked our patrols in Pangong, so we escalated; they hit us at Galwan and we hit back. When it became threatening, we mobilized.


Failure to have adequate inventory of arms, courtesy myriad of ad hoc emergency purchases. Including domestic platforms.

No - it was unclogging the procurement tap under the pretext of emergency purchase. The Mig-29, Su-30 aren't going to come for next few years, nor do the Sig 716 for atleast the next few months. The armed forces have been clear they can take on the Chinese. We have considerable war reserves.

We are caught responding to them, not getting them to respond to us. We are stuck in the OODA loop. Not them.

We have responded - yet they have been caught by surprise. How do I know ? By the results - they haven't gained territory. We have pushed them back, we have hurt their economy, we have emboldened others to hit back, and they have definitely lost any hope of Indian neutrality wrt any Chinese matter.

Ideal response? Force build up preemptively to start. Name one move GOI has made which says militarily we mean business? None.


And do what ? Sit at the border at 16K feet ? Why not let them cross the redlines, establish casus belli and then take action on them when even the most commie sympathizer in our polity can't lift a finger ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 18 Jul 2020 12:34

though the good thing abt ex commanders is that they are free from many constraints/presures on the serving officers... and so free to express their opinions. in this entire episode all the sat images etc have been from galwan,pangong ..not much frm other sectors. yes , its us vs them !!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 12:41

manjgu wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:1) Can u give an area wise sitrep on the chinese intrusion/disengagement?
2) If i understood u right, the progress on roads has not been satisfactory? but isnt that a factor of money put into the projects and the 100's of clearances required for road building near the borders? the point being made was probably that the road building given indian conditions/constraints has been v good in last 6 yrs.
3) U r right, that comments of ex army commanders should be taken seriously. my question is how clued up are ex army commanders wrt happenings on the border? the chini moved 100's of km across open terrain to come to the contested areas. Assuming u and ex commanders are right it only means we dont adequately still monitor happenings around the border and in hinterland?

Thnx


1. No. Well, I could, but I canT offer nothing that you can’t pick up from the media. Specially the parts that folks on here disagree with.
2. If the point being made was that progress has been better, then yes, I agree. But if the point being made is that this govt has listened to the military and sanctioned NEW projects to help mobilization and sustainment then, no I disagree. In a sense what I’m trying to say is the projects being touted as achievements are not new or pathbreaking but simply happen to be completed during this govt. if the GOI wants to take credit for that, no problem.
3. I can’t comment broadly on this. Or vaguely. The gen I quoted was GOC till 2017, so how out of date he might be is anyone’s guess. We have serious deficiencies when it comes to ISR. I’m not an expert in internal security so won’t comment.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rs_singh » 18 Jul 2020 12:46

Srin,

Why would I mobilize as a response to PLA? I would mobilize first and get them to react!
As for emergency purchases, ya, they won’t come for a few years, but then why release them into the press, why now? Internal audience appeasement.
I don’t understand fancy terms like causus belLi? I know Bella and happened to like a few of them till I got married.damn shame. We don’t need to sit anywhere. We need to do to them what they seem to be doing to us. Preempt them, occupy THEIR territory and get them to react.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 18 Jul 2020 12:54

srin wrote:
Mollick.R wrote:India's shopping for lightweight mountain-friendly tanks post China tussles
https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/defence/india-to-buy-light-tanks-for-mountain-warfare/articleshow/76969376.cms
By Manu Pubby, ET Bureau Last Updated: Jul 15, 2020, 07:10 AM IST
[...]


In the current conflict, given that we've got T-72s and T-90s up there, what can the Chinese light tank engage ? And if we also have our own light tank - what can it do that a T-90 can't do ?

Either you have a full fledged MBT or you have a light "tank destroyer" (a glorified IFV types) with ATGMs (that can take out a tank) and a 40mm gun (that can take out light armoured vehicles).

In the plains/plateaued terrain of Tibet, I suspect that a heavy mortar carrier would actually be quite handy. But don't see anything about that.

Heck - I can't believe that I'm batting for T-90 :eek:


We also have ATGMs armed BMP-2s, so what's the special need that light tanks will fulfill?

So T-90s 45 tons, T-72s 40 tons, BMPs 15-17tons. Whats the special need of imported 25 ton light tanks? Which was not discovered in last 60 years
Last edited by Gyan on 18 Jul 2020 13:09, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 18 Jul 2020 13:08

Lt Gen N, definitely represents views of CSG. I earlier thought that he was defending the Govt response but now I have a feeling that he is defending views of CSG.

He says that Sumurdong Chu has been vacated by China, Has it? Or I heard it wrong?

I don't know much about border situations but I know a bit about economics & industry. CSG indicated views are wrong & out dated. I think CSG is China love Group.

I also feel that CSG is still viewing the situation as a serious border patrol scuffle rather than China moving to emerge as world power & being ready to make necessary sacrifices.

(I may be wrong in my reading of CSG.)

Note:- I am against initiating military action but feel that its time we begin all out economic decoupling.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 18 Jul 2020 13:13

Rs_singh wrote:
srin wrote:
What were we caught napping about ? And what would have been the right response if we weren't napping ?


Failure to anticipate PLAGF mobilization. Remember our mobilization is a counter to them, not a preemption.
Failure to have adequate inventory of arms, courtesy myriad of ad hoc emergency purchases. Including domestic platforms.
We are caught responding to them, not getting them to respond to us. We are stuck in the OODA loop. Not them.

Ideal response? Force build up preemptively to start. Name one move GOI has made which says militarily we mean business? None.


I agree, initially we definitely were sleeping behind the wheel and the adversary was spinning his OODA loop faster than ours. That's all the more surprising given the sort of strategic and tactical recce assets with very high resolution imagery that we have. There definitely was some blundering around at some levels.

However, at this point-in-time, our mobilisation being pretty fast (thanks perhaps to previous war-gaming and existing plans for the same), and after blunting / reversing their unconventional action in Galwan, we seem to have caught up in the game.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 18 Jul 2020 13:15

Gyan wrote:
srin wrote:
In the current conflict, given that we've got T-72s and T-90s up there, what can the Chinese light tank engage ? And if we also have our own light tank - what can it do that a T-90 can't do ?..
.....So T-90s 45 tons, T-72s 40 tons, BMPs 15-17tons. Whats the special need of imported 25 ton light tanks? Which was not discovered in last 60 years


There is already a full-fledged discussion on this in the Armoured Vehicles thread. You may consider cross-posting there.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vidur » 18 Jul 2020 14:00

Gyan wrote:Lt Gen N, definitely represents views of CSG. I earlier thought that he was defending the Govt response but now I have a feeling that he is defending views of CSG.

He says that Sumurdong Chu has been vacated by China, Has it? Or I heard it wrong?

I don't know much about border situations but I know a bit about economics & industry. CSG indicated views are wrong & out dated. I think CSG is China love Group.

I also feel that CSG is still viewing the situation as a serious border patrol scuffle rather than China moving to emerge as world power & being ready to make necessary sacrifices.

(I may be wrong in my reading of CSG.)

Note:- I am against initiating military action but feel that its time we begin all out economic decoupling.


Your reading of CSG is insightful. Please also correlate to comments by previous foreign secretaries, ambassadors. You will find that our institutional understanding of China is through rose tinted glasses. It does not help that many (not all) military officers who rise to Lt Gen rank and above tend to be a little risk averse. Therefore the advice that political leadership is given is defensive, 'let's defuse the situation'. Offensive options are also given but not often as recommendations.

Do we understand Chinese intentions, are we underestimating our military capabilities, are we being too defensive, what is our desire for deescalation signalling to China ?

All these questions need serious consideration. Personally I find the clearest thinking coming from Mr Jayadev Ranade and Maj Gen GD Bakshi.

These are my personal views only.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 18 Jul 2020 15:10

[

So T-90s 45 tons, T-72s 40 tons, BMPs 15-17tons. Whats the special need of imported 25 ton light tanks? Which was not discovered in last 60 years[/quote]



They can be air lifted and dropped where ever they are required . Imagine they get dropped where the enemy least expects what a surprise.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 18 Jul 2020 15:41

Hari Nair wrote:
Rs_singh wrote:
Failure to anticipate PLAGF mobilization. Remember our mobilization is a counter to them, not a preemption.
Failure to have adequate inventory of arms, courtesy myriad of ad hoc emergency purchases. Including domestic platforms.
We are caught responding to them, not getting them to respond to us. We are stuck in the OODA loop. Not them.

Ideal response? Force build up preemptively to start. Name one move GOI has made which says militarily we mean business? None.


I agree, initially we definitely were sleeping behind the wheel and the adversary was spinning his OODA loop faster than ours. That's all the more surprising given the sort of strategic and tactical recce assets with very high resolution imagery that we have. There definitely was some blundering around at some levels.

However, at this point-in-time, our mobilisation being pretty fast (thanks perhaps to previous war-gaming and existing plans for the same), and after blunting / reversing their unconventional action in Galwan, we seem to have caught up in the game.

My understanding based on what I have heard in some of the video discussions is 3 folds
  1. We may have missed their initial "unusual" troop assembly around G219 but we probably caught on as they approached the LAC.
  2. IIRC, the Chinese changed the location/nature of their training and we did not think of that as unusual nor do any analysis of what that meant for India/LAC.
  3. Our establishment, even when they saw them coming close to the LAC, assumed that the Chinese were up to their usual tricks and would retreat after squating across the LAC for while.
Going by Lt. Gen.Anbu (Retd) stated in his discussion on StratNewsGlobal
  1. Our satellite surveillance seems to be inadequate
    • Revisit of an area by our current fleet of sats is not good enough. We need more sats to keep the India/Bakistan and India/China border plus the staging areas for operations on daily revisit and pin pointed attention is required.
    • Once we have that kind of capability, we probably need to automate the process of image diff over the entire area of interest to allow the analysts to focus on the changes.
    • Given that the volume of data will increase multifold, we will need more trained analyst.
    • Obviously, how this information then bubbles up the chain should also be reviewed.
  2. Every change in the posture of the Chinese along the LAC and its staging areas should be analyzed for its impact on the India/LAC.
  3. Every Chinese move towards the LAC should be looked at with suspicion rather than as routine. We seem to have "normalized" the Chinese squatting on our side of the LAC and this time when they really came prepared to hold ground, we are left looking for options to push them back instead of proactively moving in to block them.

    This becomes complicated at Pangang Tso but that can be discussed further if anyone wants to.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 18 Jul 2020 15:54

Embedded video interview of former Indian Ambassador to China Mr. Bambawale. He is for a tough line on China especially in the trade/business sphere and that has been an area of disappointment for me.

Amb. Bambawale may be speaking is own mind or conveying the GOI's changed position for signalling to China. Chinese embassy officials in India would pick up his interview for sure and pass it on back home.

https://twitter.com/tanvi_madan/status/ ... 3649650689
Tanvi Madan @tanvi_madan

1/ @GBambawale : “all these ppl who call for a distinction btwn economics & politics are being absolutely nonsensical." Says hv to take econ measures. "It’ll lead to a deterioration of I-C rels, but so be it. China has started the ball rolling & we have to stand up for our rights”
2/2 Fmr Indian amb to China @GBambawale : "need to reiterate our msg that we will not stand for Chinese bullying, by taking steps incl on the economics of our rel...a reset in India/China rels is necessitated by the actions that China has started"

Says it will cause pain, but hv to bear it

Strong words!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 18 Jul 2020 16:14

Rs_singh wrote:
manjgu wrote:


1. No. Well, I could, but I canT offer nothing that you can’t pick up from the media. Specially the parts that folks on here disagree with.
2. If the point being made was that progress has been better, then yes, I agree. But if the point being made is that this govt has listened to the military and sanctioned NEW projects to help mobilization and sustainment then, no I disagree. In a sense what I’m trying to say is the projects being touted as achievements are not new or pathbreaking but simply happen to be completed during this govt. if the GOI wants to take credit for that, no problem.
3. I can’t comment broadly on this. Or vaguely. The gen I quoted was GOC till 2017, so how out of date he might be is anyone’s guess. We have serious deficiencies when it comes to ISR. I’m not an expert in internal security so won’t comment.



1. actually the problem is which media to follow..and which person to believe. We had a IA veteran who said 5000 PLA have intruded in galwan and 5000 in pangong tso. Reading ur posts, ur analysis seems to be non biased..no axe to grind ..no political motives. by now i have understood galwan the best ( given the numerous vids, tweets etc), and pangong tso. have understood about hot spring, gogra. Not clear about depsang area. so if possible can u clear the depsang area intrusion? BR would welcome and appreciate ur view on the matter.
2. the point was that the current gov has completed the long pending projects which in indian context is a achievement with minimal delay and given a impetus to border development. Its like the GST , started by UPA but completed by current gov.

thnx


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