India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 24 Jul 2020 21:00

KL Dubey wrote:
pankajs wrote:There are 5 positions in total East of Doklam plateau all of which seem to be connected from the North. I see no road/track going up from the South or East so one can safely assume them to be Chinese positions.


Not sure. There is a road along the river that goes south of the border deep into Bhutan. There seem to be multiple enclosures/fenced off areas along the west bank of the river that have been cleared, and some kind of construction going on. The last such enclosure is about 500 ft of the border with China. At the border there seems some kind of watch tower (presumably Bhutanese). It seems the Bhutanese are constructing positions.

About two miles downstream (27.261741, 89.017975) there seems some kind of tree logging operations. Maybe the logs floating in the river were sent downstream by the construction going on upstream. Or I wonder if all this is Bhutanese economic activity on the west bank.

It seems the east bank is part of a protected nature reserve, so nothing going on there.

Regarding Doklam about 2 miles to the west, the Bhutanese road (27.310888, 88.960614) seems well connected to the Chinese road. That does not necessarily mean an incursion. Also about half a mile west on the road there is an installation with an establishment called "PRC Army Bar". :lol: Hopefully that is a joke by the Bhutanese.

1. I see no road/track south of the point p1(N 27.24300 E 89.02172) but this point is well connected right up to the Chinese border on GEarth next to the Doklam plateau. This under construction road also has heavy machinery @ p7 (N 27.29296 E 89.01148) & p9 (N 27.30372 E 89.00696) plying on it therefore the road from South or West (Bhutan) must be more than a trail to bring them here but I see no such road/track. To me that clearly means that it is a Chinese built road/track.

The other points of interest that I was able to locate p2 (N 27.25900 E 89.01824), p3(co-ordinate you mentioned as 27.261741, 89.017975), p4 ( N 27.26600 E 89.01480), p5 (N 27.27605 E 89.01087), p6 (N 27.28410 E 89.01134), p7 (N 27.29296 E 89.01148), p8 (N 27.30055 E 89.00819), p9 (N 27.30372 E 89.00696), p10 (N 27.30837 E 89.00760), p11 (@ the border between China and Bhutan per GE)

Perhaps you've found a road that I cannot see from Bhutan or are looking at a different map providers. Possible.

2. For the road that you have identified as Bhutanese there must have been some way for the Bhutanese to bring road building equipment at that point. I see no road from Bhutan to Doklam plateau but as you have noted, that section is well connected to the Chinese side with black topped road.

Also, the major soldier shelter build up is not at Sinche La or Merug La as would be the case if this area was under the control of the Bhutanese or Indians. The major soldier shelter buildup is at Doka La bang opposite the Indian camp making it an unmistakable Chinese camp.

Finally, this is old news but it is well know that the Chinese have occupied and builtup the northern half of the Doklam plateau.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsingh » 24 Jul 2020 21:09

Philip wrote:I think that the threat or use of tactical nukes by the PRC would bring about a massive blowback, and the wrath of the entire democractic nations of the globe,with at very least massive dpl. sanctions,dpl.expulsions as we're seeing now,the tip of the berg with the closure of the Texas consulate. Secondly,we too could use tactical nukes against the PRC. We aren't a deprived Libya or Iraq where Gadhaffi and Saddam suffered western wrath becos they lacked WMDs.Asininely the Libyan Col.gave up his nuclear ambitions! He could've kept the west guessing and avoided attack.

Thus far until Galwan,where the truth has still not been told to the PRC Chinks, the PLA has not suffered war losses,which would dent its reputation especially at home.It has relied upon brazen bullying and blackmail to annexe territory in the ICS. Bharat Karnad has advocated India moving some of its tactical nuke missiles to the region and giving the PRC an ultimatum for waithdrawal,de- escalation. If as suggested by the analysts thf PRC plans a " surprise" winter attack, it would play right into our hands, giving us extra time to mobilise ,plug gaps along thd LAC and acquire essential winter gear for all our troops. THE PAC/ CAG has made some scathing remarks in a report about delays in procuring essential winter wear,housing,etc.,for those serving at Siachen and other high alt. regions.


Saar, I agree with your post. Infact I have posted similar views in past. I am never good at writing 3 page essays and I do prefer bullet points.........clear cut and short.

- I think that the threat or use of tactical nukes by the PRC would bring about a massive blowback
Yes China is on steroids and there is possibility that they use tactical nuclear weapons (TNW). But India will do the same. Forget about massive blowback or anything. Indian leadership is seen as expandable in all over world. Reason.......Ahimsa, care for humanity and environment, Gandhi, log kya kahenge etc
- Most of Chinese do not give damn to a conflict in Ladakh. 90% of Chinese are busy somewhere else. Media is tightly controlled and managed. OOPS Again power cut in Pindi.......Salam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Hari Nair » 24 Jul 2020 21:18

Aditya_V wrote:Guys looking at gooogle maps coordinates 27.309306, 89.007382 along the Torsha River, can anyone identify if these are 1) Chinese postions..... is pretty close to Hasimara Airbase - where we are suppose to base some of our Rafale aircraft.


Sharp spotting indeed!
There is a very clear evidence of a trail (possibly motorable) running in and connecting to the valley that goes in all the way to Phuentsholing (border town) - that opens up on to the highway to Hashi!!
Only the official or OSINT sources can reveal whether those encampments are Bhutanese or Chinese.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 24 Jul 2020 21:40

rsangram wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:
The 'ingress' in Depsang is mainly at Bottleneck area at PP10-PP13, not in actual plains near PP8 and PP9 in North...

The problem at Bottleneck area is somewhat like Finger Area of Pangong Tso...
The Google Earth LAC is more or less the line that indicates actual ground control of India and China... That red line is NOT the Indian claim of LAC...
Indian claim of LAC is on East of PP10-PP13 which almost coincides with the Chinese road running from PP11-PP13...
From what I have seen on Google Earth, the only way to access PP10-PP13 is through Bottleneck/Y-junction... From Y-junction, troops used to walk along Raki Nala and other small rivulets and nalas to reach the PPs and come back on a multiple day trek... Total length of walk is more than 100km...

Chinese effectively captured this area in 2013 after the stand-off... This is the 640 sq km area which is often talked about... However, I guess they re-allowed Indian patrols after the standoff is over...

Chinese have easier access to Y-junction and from Pankaj's map provided above, there seems to be a new Chinese Road to Bottleneck which is not there on Google Earth (Most Google Earth images of the area are 10-15 years old)...
-
Now what happened is Chinese blocked access to India at Bottleneck due to which the entire area from PP10-PP13 is now inaccessible to us... This is the change in status quo...

There might have been thousands of Chinese troops in the entire Depsang Area (which includes Bottleneck and PP10-13), but most of them are on their side of LAC and probably in plain areas above...
At Bottleneck, it is really difficult to post 1000s of troops... Only few troops can be maintained there...
----
To summarize about Depsang area--->
Did Chinese ingress in areas which India considers as our side of LAC...? Yes
Did Chinese occupy any new areas in Depsang area, which are effectively not in their control until now...? No
Did Chinese deploy thousands of troops in Desang area...? Probably yes
Did Chinese deploy troops on Indian side of Indian-claim-LAC...? Yes, but probably couple of hundreds
Did Chinese deploy thousands of troops on Indian side of Indian-claim-LAC...? No, practically not possible


Excellent Sir. Very well explained and in simple terms, so even a lay person like me can understand.

Your post has genuinely enhanced my knowledge. Thank you.

Please post more.


where the map...i totally missed this..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vips » 24 Jul 2020 22:10

Explained: Maintaining troops on LAC.

With three extra Army divisions having moved to the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh to mirror the Chinese build-up (The Indian Express, July 22), the Army has started preparing for extra provisions for the additional troops who will remain deployed through the winter.

The Army does not share specifics about what will be required and is being transported. A look at what it takes to maintain a soldier in such harsh conditions:

Why is it so challenging?
The eastern Ladakh region is a high-altitude desert, where temperatures can drop to -20°C. The thinner air at high altitudes also makes breathing tougher. Major General A P Singh, who served during 2011-13 as the head of logistical operations of XIV Corps that is responsible for the China-facing LAC, explained that on such terrain the soldier is “fighting three elements: the enemy, the weather and his own health”.

What is the cost?
“Cost of keeping one soldier there, starting from buying of matches to his condiments, to his food, to his fuel for warming to his shelter to everything, for one turnaround year is easily at least to the tune of Rs 10 lakh,” Singh said. “I am just talking about keeping a soldier there, equipping him, feeding him, keeping him fighting fit, providing him with all the wherewithal.” Then there are a lot of “untold costs that nobody will tell you” because of the sensitive nature of the information.

“Mirror deployment through the winter will be a huge trade-off,” Singh said. Other officers who have served in the region agreed with the assessment; one former senior commander said the cost may be even higher.

How are the supplies transported?
By road transport or through aerial trips. Land supply routes are open only during the summer, with high-altitude passes covered in snow from around November to March-April.

There are two road accesses to Ladakh from Srinagar: Rohtang Pass and Zoji La. But neither is open round the year. With Rohtang tunnel likely to open later in the year, it can potentially solve the problem, but there are two more passes on that route, Baralacha La and Thanglang La, both of which are at a higher altitude than Rohtang, and may be snowed in during the winter.

Singh said one round trip between Srinagar and Leh for a truck that can carry 10 tonnes of supplies costs around Rs 1 lakh. A C-17 Globemaster military aircraft, Singh said, can carry up to 50 tonnes and an hour-long flight costs roughly Rs 24 lakh.

Aircraft usually carry about 200-250 tonnes a day; heavy material has to go by road.

What happens after a truck reaches Leh?
Even to reach Leh, the Army has to build transit shelters for the crew of the trucks. But bringing the supplies to Leh is just the first stop. Nearly 70% of all these supplies has to be taken to forward bases such as Siachen or Kargil. As the terrain gets tougher, the Army uses the help of locals and mules to carry some of the materials. They walk around 10 km and back every day through the summer months so that the troops are stocked for the winters.

What will be the additional cost this time?
With the usual deployment, the Army starts the process of Advance Winter Stocking in April-May. Aircraft are usually used for emergency requirements.

“In normal course you have about 2 lakh tonnes of supplies, food, equipment etc for XIV Corps for being stocked for the 6-7 months,” Singh said. With the new troops retained for winters, “it may not double everything, but close to 3 lakh tonnes of essentials will be needed now”.

With Rs 1 lakh for transporting ten tonnes through road, and the high price of air transport, the total additional transportation cost can be calculated, he said. The government will have to buy everything “at a higher rate now in the open market, compared to what we would have provisioned earlier”.

What specialised equipment do the soldiers require?
For high altitudes, the Army procures specialised equipment to keep troops warm and ready for possible health issues. “Most troops will be there for their first winter. It will be very difficult for them as they will also have to be combat-trained in these excruciating conditions,” Singh said.

Anything above 14,000 feet is considered super-high altitude. Of the four friction points in the standoff, Galwan Valley, Hot Springs and Gogra Post are higher than 14,000 feet. Depsang Plains — where troops were not involved in a faceoff but where India’s access to traditional patrol points has been blocke by China — is higher than 17,000 feet.

For such altitudes, the Army provisions for Special Clothing and Mountaineering Equipment (SCME). It includes ropes, special helmets, snow boots, jackets etc. Singh said each soldier posted to Siachen is issued two sets, each costing over Rs 2 lakh.

“We requisition for about 30,000 soldiers, including 5,000 in reserve,” he said, and added that at least a third of the additional deployment will need SCME as they will be posted in Galwan Valley, Gogra Post and Depsang Plains.

In a report for 2015-18 tabled in Parliament in February this year, the Comptroller & Auditor General noted “delays in procurement of high-altitude clothing and equipment items up to four years leading to acute shortage…”. The Army later dismissed the report, saying it pertained to an earlier period and the issue has been addressed since.

The forces have to fight against time. The turnaround time from Srinagar to Leh and back is 15-20 days. It takes even longer from Rohtang Pass. With nearly twice the supplies to be taken before the passes close in the winter, “now you are trying to pump in more”, Singh said.

Additionally, the forces have to stock up for the infrastructure work going on near the forward areas, including on the Durbuk-Shyok-Daulat Beg Oldie road.

Another important aspect is building new shelters. “With the strength doubling, you can imagine the amount of stuff that has to be built, including heat-proof shelters or at least liveable for the -20°C temperatures,” Singh said. The cement does not set after September, he said, so the Army “only has the month of August left”.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 24 Jul 2020 22:19

India Today Rahul Kanwal News track

Lt Gen Narsimhan seems to be reading from Prepared Statement (Nervous?)

AVM Arjun Subramium & Major General Ashok Mehta lay into him, with due courtesy

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 46340?s=19

https://twitter.com/IndiaToday/status/1 ... 36674?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby schinnas » 24 Jul 2020 22:44

VIPs, great post Sir, on the logistics costs on LAC. Points to the need for tunnels and rail network closer to the LAC to provide all weather supply routes (so over stocking could be avoided) and cost of transport would be lot less.

Would also enable 10 to 25% less soldiers to be put closer to the LAC as from 50kms away in a town with better permanent infra, they can be transported within a couple of hours if need be.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KL Dubey » 24 Jul 2020 22:46

pankajs wrote:2. For the road that you have identified as Bhutanese there must have been some way for the Bhutanese to bring road building equipment at that point. I see no road from Bhutan to Doklam plateau but as you have noted, that section is well connected to the Chinese side with black topped road.

Also, the major soldier shelter build up is not at Sinche La or Merug La as would be the case if this area was under the control of the Bhutanese or Indians. The major soldier shelter buildup is at Doka La bang opposite the Indian camp making it an unmistakable Chinese camp.


Thanks. I will look at all the locations you identified in detail later. But the point you mentioned in your last post shows the riverside trail/road disappearing into the forest. Considering these are mountain slopes, roads in the area can be easily concealed under the trees (or maybe that was the design). Like the poster "Hari Nair" mentions, the trail seems to generally follow down to the India-Bhutan border, so the equipment probably came from there. Additionally there are roads from the east through the nature reserve, and there is also a bridge downstream to cross the river. These roads also often "disappear" in the trees and reappear elsewhere.

If you are correct, this basically would mean a 12-15 km intrusion by the Chinese deep into Bhutan. I very much doubt Bhutan and India would have missed this and sit silent.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shyamd » 25 Jul 2020 00:14

shyamd wrote:
shyamd wrote:RE: Negotiations

The current pullback is only for the next few weeks, till the complete pullback from depth locations. Border will be out of bounds for both sides and no foot patrol is allowed, so that no Galwan type incident occurs again.

GOI/IA view is that negotiations are going in favour of PRC. IA message to GOI is that we should not allow this buffer zone and holding of territory to become the new normal.

PRC/GOI have to decide whether to go in for another round of local talks or discuss via the usual PRC/India boundary committee (Yang and Doval).

Dilemma - continue talking while PRC just drag their feet and entrench OR conduct a mil operation.... The longer these talks go on the more ready PRC is...

IA asking for green light. GOI only gave amber for preparations. IA now slowly going public to force hand of politicians.

My view is they’ll opt for Wang/Doval option with a call with Xi. Last ditch... expect the worst possibility.


WMCC to meet on friday

PLA has not kept to it's end of the bargain - they have reinforced and brought additional troops to Depsang. Mil commanders recommended for WMCC option - Doval to lead discussion to push through change on ground. IA view is "no more talks at military level - please give green light soon".

Basically IA, IAF, IN are ready and just want green light. They have been conducting drills, reconnaissance et al... PLA reinforcement is because of heightened mil exercises by IA & IAF. Watch the chinese take this up with Doval tomorrow...

As I said action is imminent..

I'm surprised at how irritated ladakhis are at IA/ITBP - they are claiming serious negligence on part of security establishment including a decision to close down tourist camps/tours/treks to border areas late last year?


Positive news. 3 hour long call means substantial discussions took place. I'm sure satellite photos would have been exchanged to prove how PLA have not kept to their end of the bargain. Both sides saying need to follow the military de-escalation plan agreed.

I think PRC have decided to calm things down. Certainly if it is true that the 3* PLA officer is now replaced with a Chief of Staff- to me it signals that someone wants direct control of the situation through a handpicked man.

There will be a fall out on IA/ITBP from this debacle. IA is blaming COVID crisis/manpower issues for not aggressively patrolling the areas in question - PLA took advantage of this.

By the way, this episode is still in the favour of the PLA both strategically and tactically per IA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sanjayc » 25 Jul 2020 00:24

Leaving the land in Laddakh unattended has been a problem since Nehru's time

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jul 2020 00:51

TWITTER

@DrApr007:

#BREAKING : PLA has constructed permanent structure,installed defence system,placed artilleries & constructed small medical facility near Fgr 6 of Pangong Tso.
Previously We used to do patrolling till Fgr 8 & sometimes PLA come till Fgr 4 but there was no any permanent structure.

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/128 ... 44704?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 25 Jul 2020 01:08

Deans wrote:
abhik wrote:Wow good find, that a full 5 km of incursion. And since some other maps are not showing it, this has to be quite recent, less than 2 years ago and well after Doklam standoff.


My view is that its probably a Bhutanese army camp. There is no info on a PLA incursion that far into Bhutan, but it is within the Chinese claim area so it would be a logical place for the RBA to deploy. I don't think anything more than light infantry can use that track.


Not sure what what you are refering to as a track, but i just measured the distance from Googles china-bhutan border to the last major clearing here and it a full 7.5 km (there is one more 2-300m down but not very clear). Also the road itself is 8-10m wide with an embankment built all along. And i was able to count ~40 vehicles (including dumpers, earthmovers, cement mixers and smaller cars/trucks), plus dozens of temporary/permanent structures. We are probably going to see dense housing structures come up here just like these ones further upstream on there side. I just don't see how this could be Bhutanese camp.

BTW I'm not able to identify the tracks/roads from Bhutanese side, any coordinates for that?

Added: This construction is obviously in progress (and has been going along unmolested), based on how old the images are they may already done or we will see the full extent in a few months where fresher images are published.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 25 Jul 2020 01:30

Rohit on the current situation ..

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 3228961793
    [China 'Surprise' on LAC]
  • Multiple people have said we were surprised by the Chinese on LAC.
  • I for one, don't buy this surprise theory.
  • I've an alternate explanation - there (was) a delay in decision making as to how to react to the Chinese moves.
  • Unlike Pakistan, where LOC is defined, nature of engagement is known, it is a 0-1/binary thing.
  • You cross LOC OR threaten Indian troops/infra OR fire at us, we will shoot.
  • Not in case of China and LAC.
  • What does a local commander, say CO of an infantry battalion, do if Chinese come with tents and start pitching them on our side of LAC, right in front of his eyes?
  • Does he fire at them? He can't. Best he can do is send a large body of troops and you'll see fisticuffs and a brawl.
  • So, he sees the Chinese doing something out of ordinary, and he informs his higher ups.
  • He takes precaution to ensure Chinese can't come across area in our control.
  • But when it comes to Chinese actions in area between Indian and the Chinese LAC, orders come from very top.
  • And by very top I mean the PMO and Foreign Ministry; MOD and Services will act on advice of PMO and Foreign Office and the China Study Group.
  • In such instances, escalation is controlled from the top.
  • Even in present stand-off, Chinese incursion has been Fingers Area of Pangong Tso lake where there is a difference in perception of LAC.
  • But when it came to Galwan river, not only were the Chinese quickly confronted during their initial incursion but made to go back.
  • The fight happened over Chinese presence a few hundred meters of our side.
  • Chinese were expecting a similar ambiguity or delay in response in Galwan as in case of Pangong Tso or Depsang Plains.
  • And when the violent counter-attack happened from our side, that's when they were stunned.
  • But same thing did not happen in Pangong Tso or Depsang Plains.
  • Because as I said, our mechanism to deal with the Chinese in this grey zone of 'differing LAC perception' gives them space to exploit our vulnerabilities.
  • Same thing has happened this time as well.
  • By not confronting the Chinese at the time of encroachment, due to laid out mechanism, we gave them space.
  • And now, we've to retrieve the situation from this point onwards.
  • Going ahead, it will be important to put down SOP in place to ensure that decision cycle when it comes to dealing with such encroachment(s), is not delayed.
  • And that we do not lose the initiative.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 25 Jul 2020 01:31

Shown their intransigence on the LAC,refusing to return to the STQ ( status quo ante), the GOI should enforce even more stringent eco and dpl. measures.Military measures planned for but an option to be used judiciously. Just as we downgraded the Paki embassy,by expelling a nest of vermin,so too should we do with the PRC.Close down their consulates at Cal and Bombay,expel much of their vermin at Delhi.Simultaneously upgrade the relations with Taiwan and the Tibetan govt. in exile. HH the Dalai Lama must be given the Bharat Ratna too.The new Taiwanese president,Tsai Ing- wen,could also be given the Indira Gandhi Peace Prize, if the IG trust comes around ( it would show where their loyalties lie too,to the PRC or India!), and if they dither,then cut out the " Indira" and award her the Gandhi Peace Prize.

However, the enormous task of logistics to support the extra divisions,especially the long,laborious method by road, should be enhanced by as much as is possible by air using various transports and heavylift helos. I again stress the urgency in leasing such aircraft and helos in the current situ. Paradrops too where feasible done too. Improving the infra by road,rail,etc. will take a few years.It appears that we have no alternative but to treat the LAC in the future as another expanded Siachen,where a 24X7,365 days watch is reqd. The IA and IAF should look at combined innovative ideas as to how to maintain the max firepower available,whilst reducing manpower as much as possible. The use of drones,unmanned AVs,robots,etc. should be explored for options. A good start has been news of an Indo- US
programme for a UAV/ UCAV. Using munitions which have ER projectiles, expanded kill area ,etc.,plus a wide range of PGMs.The " Hammer" acquisition just one example, but here is where desi programmes for this requirement should be maximised for cost- effectiveness. Tactical missiles also moved to forward towards the front from where they can target prime PRC positions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 25 Jul 2020 01:35

BREAKING: OK Guys. looks like Google Earth has updates (15-June) images from Pangong Tso lake (desktop version, I dont see it on maps) - OSINT folks go knock your selves out 8)
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/l ... 2020-07-24

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KL Dubey » 25 Jul 2020 01:36

"Pankajs" and other posters -

Regarding the discussion of the China-Bhutan border, I looked at this in more detail. It looks like all this is "old hat" including what "pankajs" showed earlier today.

I used the wiki page to refresh myself on the Doklam standoff details, and found that the map therein has already shown these locations:

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doklam#/maplink/0

"Pankajs", point 7 on this map is the one you mentioned earlier on the Torsa river. The road does indeed end further downstream. This is a Chinese-built road and looks like the Chinese must have built up posts along the road by now. The roads on the Doklam plateau between Dokala and Sinchela (points 4 and 5) are also all Chinese constructions. According to the wiki this encroachment has been going on since 2004.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 25 Jul 2020 01:58

abhik wrote:
Deans wrote:
My view is that its probably a Bhutanese army camp. There is no info on a PLA incursion that far into Bhutan, but it is within the Chinese claim area so it would be a logical place for the RBA to deploy. I don't think anything more than light infantry can use that track.


Not sure what what you are refering to as a track, but i just measured the distance from Googles china-bhutan border to the last major clearing here and it a full 7.5 km (there is one more 2-300m down but not very clear). Also the road itself is 8-10m wide with an embankment built all along. And i was able to count ~40 vehicles (including dumpers, earthmovers, cement mixers and smaller cars/trucks), plus dozens of temporary/permanent structures. We are probably going to see dense housing structures come up here just like these ones further upstream on there side. I just don't see how this could be Bhutanese camp.

BTW I'm not able to identify the tracks/roads from Bhutanese side, any coordinates for that?
OK

Added: This construction is obviously in progress (and has been going along unmolested), based on how old the images are they may already done or we will see the full extent in a few months where fresher images are published.

OK Google earth says these images are from August 2019, so around a year back.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chetak » 25 Jul 2020 02:37

A bit disturbing but definitely worth a read


China could use tactical nukes to force India submit vital territory. In the current scenario, it could even be tactical bio-bomb.


In a closed door international seminar in a foreign country eight years back, some speakers opined China could use tactical nukes to force India submit vital territory. In the current scenario, it could even be tactical bio-bomb.

Lt Gen (Retd) PC Katoch
JULY 23, 2020,

India does not have a National Security Strategy (NSS). HQ Integrated Defence Staff invited the National Security Advisor (NSA) few years back to put across how military can help draft the NSS. The Deputy NSA came instead but cut short the presentation midway saying forget all this; tell me about Nepal – the royal massacre had just happened. He was told that a comprehensive assessment was sent to NSA three months back how events will shape in Nepal in five phases. He said he had not seen the paper. Few years later, HQ IDS again invited the NSA for the same presentation. This time the NSA came but lost his temper within 10 minutes saying: “Who has asked you to work on this? We already have a NSS”; this despite government admitting in Parliament there is no NSS but few relevant orders exist in different ministries.

Last year media reported the present NSA is tasked to define the NSS, which apparently is still in the making. How our intelligence agencies are tasked in absence of NSS remains a mystery. But more galling is void of a Strategic Defence Review (SDR) without which numerous aberrations are noticeable with respect to the current standoff in Eastern Ladakh. These are discussed in succeeding paragraphs.

Media recently quoted the China Study Group (CSG) stating they have been closely monitoring China for years – so how come China sprang this surprise in Ladakh? A foreign scholar has detailed satellite imagery of world's largest sand-scale landform in the Ningxia region (China) representing Eastern Ladakh built in 2004 in order to train PLA for operations in Ladakh. Why was our intelligence and CSG unaware of this? Our intelligence at all levels was complete failure despite PLA having built a road 4 km short of Galwan. Some say Chinese aggression was because of India developing border infrastructure to capture Aksai Chin but given the military asymmetry China unlikely sees such threat in the foreseeable future.

Image
PLA - Eastern Ladakh


Without the SDR and belief there would be no conflict, we went for a truncated Mountain Strike Corps and arbitrarily decided on downsizing Army by 100,000 without examining LAC deployments. For example, the Division in Eastern Ladakh has frontage of over 800 km and had little surveillance means. Successive defence budgets negative in actual terms have adversely affected military modernization, including foreclosing some operational information systems under development by army to fight network-centric war.

Terming intrusions under “their perception of LAC” doesn’t alter the ground truth. Belief that PLA will have to withdraw in winter due to logistics problems too is faulty. Earlier PLA infrastructure were at elevation of 4,000m but now their new encampments are at 6,000m, new support bases at 5,500m and new heliports at 4,500m. It is also opined that PLA will ‘have’ to de-escalate but de-escalation apparently has already reached a dead-end. PLA withdrawing to April 2020 locations is out of the question. They will unlikely withdraw intrusions, especially in Depsang and Pangong Tso areas.

It is also believed that Beijing cannot afford conflict due to adverse world opinion but China never expected garlands even when triggering Wuhan Virus. China may consider this the best opportunity against India battling the pandemic, floods, emergency purchases, winter logistics nightmare, virulent domestic politics and part focus on periodic elections. Some say ball is in China’s court, which it is ‘not’ unless India accepts fait accompli. China continues to claim entire Galwan Valley and PLA intrusions include a deep one in Depsang, besides a mechanized division and other forces on Chinese side of LAC opposite Demchok and Depsang. Ball in India’s court does not preclude further offensive by PLA at opportune time. That is why Defence Minister Rajnath Singh has asked the military to be prepared for two-front war.

The SDR in the Indian context implies defining the threat (short, medium and long-term) much more in detail than the NSS, recommend the size and shape of the military required to build hard power for defending the nation and threat in being enabling unhindered growth of India as a rising power, taking into account multi-domain scenarios through the spectrum of conflict; which would also indicate technologies India must acquire. SDR should also cover worst case scenarios. Periodic review of the SDR is essential because of fast paced situational dynamics. For example, post calling off the Doklam Standoff, China has located a brigade plus force in close proximity. With new illegal claim over Sakteng Wildlife Sanctuary in Bhutan, China may be planning operations in Bhutan to force another standoff with India.

The SDR and periodic reviews would take time but in the current India-China standoff notably China maintains India is the aggressor while talking of de-escalation but continues with intrusions at least at Pangong Tso and Depsang while also claiming entire Galwan Valley. China would be unimpressed with military demonstrations shown to Defence Minister Rajnath Singh at Stakna near Leh, being on stronger ground. Recent statement by China’s foreign ministry that India should maintain its independent foreign policy is noteworthy, which followed External Affairs Minister Jaishankar saying that non-alignment was thing of the past. China could well initiate conflict with India before, during or after winter ‘without’ activating South China Sea. China could activate fronts through Bhutan, Ladakh and northeast with Pakistan activated through POK. What support would India get from US or Quad in such scenario beyond posturing?

In a closed door international seminar in a foreign country eight years back, some speakers opined China could use tactical nukes to force India submit vital territory. In the current scenario, it could even be tactical bio-bomb.

If we are not prepared for worst case, this could be a surprise. PLA has equipped soldiers with waterproof cold clothing to wade waters of Galwan River; they could be equipped for CBRN operations too. We have nukes including nuclear tipped BrahMos but hopefully these scenarios have been debated already and responses decided least we scramble the National Command Authority after getting hit and then start debating escalation. If the oil wells fire in Assam is an indication we could be fighting three-front war, which with China will involve high level of cyber-cum-electromagnetic attacks and vertical envelopment.

Disclaimer:The author is veteran of Indian Army. His views are personal.

nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 25 Jul 2020 02:58



From weapon procurement to logistics, we have been found wanting when it comes to LAC. Was nobody in our security establishment planning for 50K troops to get deploy on Ladakh?

Was everyone thinking Chinis will just sallow their failure at Doklam and never come back?

Our establishment seem to have incredible level of faith in the Chinese.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 25 Jul 2020 03:08

abhik wrote:BREAKING: OK Guys. looks like Google Earth has updates (15-June) images from Pangong Tso lake (desktop version, I dont see it on maps) - OSINT folks go knock your selves out 8)
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/l ... 2020-07-24

For folks who are digging into this, any idea what those clusters structures (in neat rows) on the F4/3 ridge line are. I initially thought they were tents, but looking at their size (~1mx2m) they can hold only 1 or at max 2 people - maybe its some sort of high altitude tent?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ks_sachin » 25 Jul 2020 05:32

nam wrote:


From weapon procurement to logistics, we have been found wanting when it comes to LAC. Was nobody in our security establishment planning for 50K troops to get deploy on Ladakh?

Was everyone thinking Chinis will just sallow their failure at Doklam and never come back?

Our establishment seem to have incredible level of faith in the Chinese.

Nam I just had a discussion on the MTN strike corps...
It will fill you with despair.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Jarita » 25 Jul 2020 06:21



Misleading how.
Does anyone have a realistic picture of what’s going on? If not to protect our borders, what do we have a defense ministry for.
This is a most opaque situation with extreme positions and fibbing by the media.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 25 Jul 2020 07:24

ramana wrote:If China does not vacate it's new positions there will be war.

I hope you're right. I really, really, really hope you're right.

shyamd wrote:Last ditch... expect the worst possibility.

Please explain what you mean by "worst possibility" here. This is a term that would mean different things to different groups of people. To the peacenick / koombaya group, a shooting war between India and China would be the "worst possibility", while a good-for-nothing stalemate "freeze in position" and talk-talk-talk ad infinitum would be the "best possibility", even if it meant China creeping forwrd / salami-slicing a few km every year. To a fed-up hardliner like me, the choices are reversed.

A clarification from you would be appreciated. TIA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jul 2020 07:47

TWITTER

@daeroplate :

i dont people our media/people truly understand just how cheap it is for china to garrison heavily opp ladakh in the winter.... it is 10x cheaper and scalable so long as no conflict is there... selling do-nothing winter occupation as 'strategy' is not good 1/n

firstly there is beijing to urumqi G9 obor expressway and railway. from there both road + rail go to kashgar in western border of xinjiang...its a major military node and airport, with a large marshalling yard 2/n

from kashar the railway continues parallel to a _expressway_ (4 lanes) .. to hotan ... here the railway ends. highway continues on as the famous G219 through aksai chin and to east to lhasa 3/n

so tanks and heavy equipment, people, food, fuel can not only be shipping by truck from the depots near the railway in Lhasa but all the way from mainland through urumqi - kashgar - hotan - G219 .... they would get into smaller roads near edge of himalaya only for last 50 km. 4/n

compare that to the precarious nature the srinagar-kargil-drass-leh road and the manali to eastern ladakh over rohtang pass (tunnel is allegedly IOC in Sept but couple more high passes with no tunnels are there) 5/n

making us commit to sustaining a huge force in ladakh , with 10x costlier and harder logistics would suit china just fine. they have already camped on whatever parcels of land they wanted,baited us into a counter buildup and can sit there in warm huts with better supply chain 6/n

choices imo are really two - do something to change things on the ground, or do nothing kinetic-> we have a new 300km front with siachen like costs to support forever, plus losing access to some land ..... there is no risk free or 'painless' way forward now 7/n

economic measures help in the long term and must be done, but i dont think they are doing to vacate depsang and f4 choke points for fear of losing more money here. some other markets and vassals to exploit will be found. n/n

hotan railway station (G219 highway splits from hotan expway off a little way before hotan) is surrounded by huge complexes of warehouses. so looks like stuff gets railed in bulk and then trucked backwards a little way toward kashgar then forks off into G219 south to aksai chin.


https://twitter.com/daeroplate/status/1 ... 43424?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Jul 2020 11:56

Hotan to Aksai Chin is summer is ok, but hardly easy to do in WInter as the Tweet suggests.

See these cordinates 37.088207, 76.965380 and the area around for what kind of climb is involved from Kargilik to Aksai Chin. It like the climb from Zoji La or Rohtang Pass in Winter.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 25 Jul 2020 12:06

^^
This is the reverse of the "Wolf warrior" strategy that postulated that IA would be forced to deploy where as the PLA would merrily go back to their peace time location. Thus PLA/China would achieve a gleat victory!

:rotfl: then :rotfl: now.

Btw, this also highlights why DBO/Depsang is so important to India and why China wants us out of there.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 25 Jul 2020 12:18

actually i never understood why zozila was not tunneled and rohtang was !!! i mean even after 1999 we could not comprehend the significance of all weather road connnectivity to ladhak from kashmir valley ...india. The indian logistic train to kashmir & ladhak is v long as well..practically everything in ladhak comes from the plains.. punjab..UP..and beyond. thats easily like 1000 km at the minimum. ( though srinagar to leh road is much much improved now... drivers routinely do 80 to 100 kmph on many stretches of the road).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 25 Jul 2020 12:18

pankajs wrote:^^
This is the reverse of the "Wolf warrior" strategy that postulated that IA would be forced to deploy where as the PLA would merrily go back to their peace time location. Thus PLA/China would achieve a gleat victory!

:rotfl: then :rotfl: now.

Btw, this also highlights why DBO/Depsang is so important to India and why China wants us out of there.


where was this postulated??

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 25 Jul 2020 12:27

In one of @Phillips posts .. if one goes back sufficiently on this thread one would come across that post ... IIRC based on a Hindu report that is supposed to have collated all the recent Chinese thinking on the LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 25 Jul 2020 13:04

Aditya_V wrote:Hotan to Aksai Chin is summer is ok, but hardly easy to do in WInter as the Tweet suggests.

See these cordinates 37.088207, 76.965380 and the area around for what kind of climb is involved from Kargilik to Aksai Chin. It like the climb from Zoji La or Rohtang Pass in Winter.



We have to analyze two limitations on PLA. Altitude problems for PLAAF Aircraft from Tibetan Airfields. Slowly some material is coming out on this. If MTOW falls by 40% then all Airfields except Hotan are practically useless, while Hotan will also have MTOW fall by 20%.

Assuming India would have 2x Airfields, with aircraft taking off with 2x weapon load, & 2x sortie rate against China. This gives India qualitative edge of 5x-15x Vs. Chinese Aircrafts

Also what are Chinese logistics problems in winter? Compared to India or only we are cut off for 6-7 months? What sort of obstructions & difficulties their Trucks & Railway will face in winters?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 25 Jul 2020 14:40

Railway will take them till kargilik or Lhasa- over many thousands of kilometers in a nation which imports most of its food, then from wither of these 2 locations it will be Trucks in tough mountain country, If Rohtang Tunnel opens up it will be much tougher for them in winter than it is for us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rahul M » 25 Jul 2020 15:07

Let's not hang out hats on the lowered MTOW from Tibet airbases idea too much.
As Vivek Ahuja s analysis showed, much of the worse effects of altitude on MTOW can be mitigated by having a longer runway. The Chinese could easily have painted over/covered extensions of the runway with camo to hide actual length of the runways. They do have dedicated maskirovka units in their military formations.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mollick.R » 25 Jul 2020 15:07

X-Post from Naval Thread....

India moves to buy 6 more Poseidons from US for $1.8bn
Rajat Pandit | TNN | Updated: Jul 25, 2020, 11:28 IST

NEW DELHI: India has formally kicked off the acquisition process for six more long-range Poseidon-8I aircraft from the US, while a plan is also underway for fast-track procurement of six Predator-B armed drones amidst the ongoing military confrontation with China.
.
.
Top defence sources on Friday said the “letter of request” for six more P-8Is for around $1.8 billionhas now been issued to the US for the government-to-government deal under Pentagon’s foreign military sales (FMS) programme. “The US, in turn, will soon send the ‘letter of acceptance’ after congressional approval. The contract should be inked by early next year,” said a source.

Full Article Here//Times of India Link
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-moves-to-buy-6-more-poseidons-from-us-for-1-8bn/articleshow/77160923.cms

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 25 Jul 2020 15:50

actually i never understood why zozila was not tunneled and rohtang was !!!


Probably because of technical difficulties? By all accounts, the Zoji La tunnel is a fairly serious undertaking. The Rohtang (Atal) Tunnel is 8.8 km, which the Zoji La + Z-Morh tunnels are a 21 km in total (14.2 + 6.5 km). Thats basically close to 3X the effort, if not more.



The biggest roadblocks (literally) for all-weather access along Srinagar-Leh-SSN are the mountain passes at the points where the roads cross the different ranges. Since the mountain ranges in the Himalayas are largely aligned NW-to-SE, most of the passes lie along roads that are aligned in the largely N-S direction. My guess is that we will eventually construct tunnels under the major passes for all-weather high-speed high-volume connectivity, probably within the next 10-15 years.

Srinagar to Leh Route
- Zoji La,
- Namika La, and
- Fotu La (4108 m).

Leh to Shyok-Nubra valley connections
This connector gives access both to the Siachen Glacier (Nubra Valley), and to SSN (DSDBO Road). This has 3 alternate routes, through

1. Khardung La (5359 m),
2. Wari La (5312 m), or
3. Chang La (5360 m),

The alternative connection that wouldn't require going through high passes is the fairly long southern detour from Leh-Mahe-Nyoma-Chushul, where the major pass I can identify, apart from Rezang La, is Tsaga La (4635 m). There is a cut-through road between Mahe and Chushul, but that goes through Nurpa La (4936 m), Hor La (4935 m), and Kakasang La (5436 m), but that seems to be pretty gnarly.

I don't really see any other clear passes between Chang La and Kakasang La, so any routes created through the mountain range at points between those two passes will probably require a tunnel crossing the ridgel line.

Further South, connecting Manali to Leh has quite a few more passes - Rohtang, Naki La, Lachulung La, Baralacha La, Taglang La are just a few off the top of my head.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 25 Jul 2020 15:58

The next major tunneling project connecting the Ladakh region is going to be "Shingo La" aka "Shinku La" that will connect Manali to Kargil and provide an alternate "All weather" route to Ladakh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 25 Jul 2020 16:10

k prasad wrote:
actually i never understood why zozila was not tunneled and rohtang was !!!


Probably because of technical difficulties? By all accounts, the Zoji La tunnel is a fairly serious undertaking. The Rohtang (Atal) Tunnel is 8.8 km, which the Zoji La + Z-Morh tunnels are a 21 km in total (14.2 + 6.5 km). Thats basically close to 3X the effort, if not more.



The biggest roadblocks (literally) for all-weather access along Srinagar-Leh-SSN are the mountain passes at the points where the roads cross the different ranges. Since the mountain ranges in the Himalayas are largely aligned NW-to-SE, most of the passes lie along roads that are aligned in the largely N-S direction. My guess is that we will eventually construct tunnels under the major passes for all-weather high-speed high-volume connectivity, probably within the next 10-15 years.

Srinagar to Leh Route
- Zoji La,
- Namika La, and
- Fotu La (4108 m).

Leh to Shyok-Nubra valley connections
This connector gives access both to the Siachen Glacier (Nubra Valley), and to SSN (DSDBO Road). This has 3 alternate routes, through

1. Khardung La (5359 m),
2. Wari La (5312 m), or
3. Chang La (5360 m),

The alternative connection that wouldn't require going through high passes is the fairly long southern detour from Leh-Mahe-Nyoma-Chushul, where the major pass I can identify, apart from Rezang La, is Tsaga La (4635 m). There is a cut-through road between Mahe and Chushul, but that goes through Nurpa La (4936 m), Hor La (4935 m), and Kakasang La (5436 m), but that seems to be pretty gnarly.

I don't really see any other clear passes between Chang La and Kakasang La, so any routes created through the mountain range at points between those two passes will probably require a tunnel crossing the ridgel line.

Further South, connecting Manali to Leh has quite a few more passes - Rohtang, Naki La, Lachulung La, Baralacha La, Taglang La are just a few off the top of my head.


1) i think the zozila tunnel has been approved only 2 or 3 years back ...still in tendering phase. The point i am making is after 1999 govt should have realised importance of zozila ... how vital it is. not starting work on it right from 1999 shows serious lack of strategic foresight and planning. Could have easily roped in some European cos and got the job done. the other passes on srinagar leh route are easily kept open... not much snow on them. 2) Unfortunately rohtang tunnel does not provide all year access to Ladhak with 3 more high alt passes on the manali leh route. 3) more than food/ammo it will be fuel which will be hard to bring in during winters. unless u have heated pens for tanks, vehicles don't know how they can even get them moving ? v hard to keep zozila open anything beyond october/novemeber if they can it will be nothing short of a miracle !!! this will be a v hard winter.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 25 Jul 2020 16:41

Manjgu-ji, you are not wrong. If we had the political will, we would've had this tunnel built by now.

Sadly, we barely had the political will to even build border roads, let alone strategic tunnels. This is something that has thankfully changed in the past 8-10 years. hopefully there will be progress at a higher speed now onwards.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 25 Jul 2020 17:07

Rahul M wrote:Let's not hang out hats on the lowered MTOW from Tibet airbases idea too much.
As Vivek Ahuja s analysis showed, much of the worse effects of altitude on MTOW can be mitigated by having a longer runway. The Chinese could easily have painted over/covered extensions of the runway with camo to hide actual length of the runways. They do have dedicated maskirovka units in their military formations.


I talked to some (Commercial) pilots, these dis-advantages cannot be mitigated. Even at 10,000 feet one looses 20% MTOW inspite of using 10% longer runway + 10% faster take off. Beyond that altitude the limitations multiply very fast. Except Hotan Chinese aircraft will take off at 60% MTOW at only certain time of day, with longer runway, at very high speed (causing lot of wear tear on the aircraft in the process). Within India, Commercial Aircraft can take off from Leh as (1) less fuel is required due to shorter distance (2) Commercial engines have lot of reserve power. Chinese Airfields (except Hotan are around 14000 feet)

Anyway from open Source:-

https://www.eastmojo.com/opinion/2020/0 ... sadvantage

Group Captain MJA Vinod was in charge of operations for Northeast during his tenure as CATSPAW - Command Air Tasking And Strike Planning for Aerial Warfare - in Shillong, Meghalaya. He was also conferred with Vishisht Sewa Medal by the President of India for establishing CATSPAW. He served four tenures in Northeast from Sikkim sector to the Eastern most base. He is an MPhil and a PhD scholar in international relations and strategic studies.

On Station time: IAF operating from above mentioned bases can take off from lower altitude with full loadout while China suffers badly due to hot and high conditions. IAF can take off from rear bases, operate over the area for at least 2X to 6X time than China and recover to a nearer base, refuel and be on business in a matter of 45 mins. While PLAAF aeroplanes need to go back 500 to 1000 km for refuelling.

Hot and High: Every degree temperature increase at high altitude airfields matters. It puts a lot of restriction on the aeroplanes. An airbus class of aeroplane can land there with full load, however at high temperature cannot take off with ¼ of the load it landed with. That is why you will see all flights to Leh or for that matter to Ngari Kunsa on the Chinese side finishes before 10.00 AM.

Use of Air to Air Refuelers: Some so called experts are Gung ho about Chinese Air-Air refuellers. To burst their bubble Air-Air refuellers are not panacea to the problem of fewer bases that Chinese has in this region. Air to Air refuellers are of two types ‘Drogue and Probe’ and ‘Boom and Socket’. Boom and Socket is used only by Americans (it has remarkably high fuel transfer rate). Drogue and Probe is what rest of the world uses. Issues with this type is the fuel transfer rate is just enough to refuel 5-7 aeroplanes because China needs to launch with full fuel from a lower altitude airfield and travel a long distance to give fuel to thirsty fighters over ‘Takla Makan’ regions. Time taken for the refueler to travel, refuelling time, protection required for the refueller itself (Lest it is shot out of the sky by Indian Fighters) etc makes Air – Air refuelling options for Chinese a near impossible feat. By no means I am saying they will not do it. They will, for some special missions. But they cannot do it for day to day operations.

What will be the Outcome for China?

Answer to this question is quite simple, it will be a one long graveyard from Galwan to Kashgar and Lhasa. China cannot afford fighting with India in the area that it has shown its tentacles. Xi Jinping is being advised by Generals who do not know Air War. He is being led down the garden path by generals with ambition. If push comes to shove and if the war happens, I hope they commit massive force in this region for IAF to do target practice and decimate them even before it encounters our army.

Last edited by Gyan on 25 Jul 2020 17:25, edited 3 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 25 Jul 2020 17:12

Aditya_V wrote:Railway will take them till kargilik or Lhasa- over many thousands of kilometers in a nation which imports most of its food, then from wither of these 2 locations it will be Trucks in tough mountain country, If Rohtang Tunnel opens up it will be much tougher for them in winter than it is for us.



I think that some of our areas remain cut off due to snow from Nov to April. Can it be mitigated to say Jan to Feb by forcing roads to remain open by heavier use of snow cutters etc??

Can a cut off Indian post, facing heavy attacks, lose it confidence? Have we prepared for that?

Does China face similar situations? where some of its areas will get cut off? Will India be able to attack such cut off positions?


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