India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 25 Jul 2020 18:09

How are the Chinis bringing in their tanks towards LAC? How are they able to reach 14000 ft? I can understand getting to Lhasa and even trucked on flat areas. How about going/coming back uphill?

Do they have such powerful trucks to carry 40ton uphill at 14000 ft? Can the tanks go uphill by themselves?

I can see Type15 with 35 ton and 1000hp might be able to do it. But tanks constantly travelling on roads will destroy the roads very soon. Not viable against a large foe like us.

Their tank numbers at LAC must be minimal. Or these kit have been dumped at specific locations.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby samirdiw » 25 Jul 2020 19:05

Our money is more well spent in getting them to fight in at a closer range than by giving them targets at a longer range. For this we need to neutralize their artillery first by getting more longer range weapons. Their entire battle exercises and superiority mindset is from their wheeled artillery and rocket force supported by their engineering to get these weapons to all places.

Get them to fight closer and the single-child mothers will be terrorized. We should not waste our funds by trying to match them in every area - that is exactly what they want us to do.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 25 Jul 2020 20:17

k prasad wrote:Manjgu-ji, you are not wrong. If we had the political will, we would've had this tunnel built by now.

Sadly, we barely had the political will to even build border roads, let alone strategic tunnels. This is something that has thankfully changed in the past 8-10 years. hopefully there will be progress at a higher speed now onwards.


Border roads i can still understand. ..abt lack of political will ..but to tunnel zozila was more abt lack of foresight ..planning ... pakis dont object to our building infra in kashmir like the chini do... ofc we are finally on the right track now

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shyamd » 25 Jul 2020 20:22

Roop wrote:
shyamd wrote:Last ditch... expect the worst possibility.

Please explain what you mean by "worst possibility" here. This is a term that would mean different things to different groups of people. To the peacenick / koombaya group, a shooting war between India and China would be the "worst possibility", while a good-for-nothing stalemate "freeze in position" and talk-talk-talk ad infinitum would be the "best possibility", even if it meant China creeping forwrd / salami-slicing a few km every year. To a fed-up hardliner like me, the choices are reversed.

A clarification from you would be appreciated. TIA.

War

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 25 Jul 2020 20:38

More than weapon systems, policies, government actions, reactions - more than what world powers of all hue do, even more than the nature of our adversaries and even their actions, the MOST Dominant Factor influencing the Security of a People, a Community, a Nation - a Civilization, the "Big Elephant in the room" is the "Strength of Character of its own people".

Another term for "Strength of Character" can be "Moral Compass". They both are practically one and the same. And if a People do not possess a net Strong Character, then they must FIRST and FOREMOST, work on it, almost to the exclusion of all else, on a "War Footing", no matter what it takes.

"Strength of Character" is a very wide all encompassing set of qualities that a People possess. These could be a sum total of negative set of qualities and positive set of qualities, through which you arrive at the "Net" Strength of Character. Strength of Character comprises of many many different qualities, positive or negative, but examples, could be somethings very simple such as Team Work, Honesty, Integrity, Ability to be Strategic(strategic really means ability to "Visualize" or have a Vision-a positive one and make prudent short term sacrifices to realize that medium and long term vision), genuine courage, fearlessness, strong belief and faith in oneself etc. Examples of Negative Qualities could include, obfuscation, diversion, burying your head in the sand, keep making justifications for failure and spinning disasters into triumphs, bend into contortions to be apologists for bad behavior, going to extremes to conceal one's weaknesses and failures, and of course, "kissing up and kicking down"(this is a big one), low tolerance for truth, dishonesty of all kinds, etc.

Lacking the Strength of Character in the general populace, no amount of any other factors such as tanks, aircraft, radar, satellite maps, missiles, even nukes and perhaps even having a dedicated and strong charactered armed forces, IF it is an outlier from the general population, will do NOT MUCH for Security of a Nation or even its borders.

For a Civilization or lack of it, with sketchy Strength of Character, it is only a question of time, before it dies, if it is already not dead, and if it is already not dead, it is simply because its adversaries too have certain shortcomings by way of Strength of Character. But that is no great shakes, because to rely on the adversaries weaknesses for its own survival(a negative virtue), rather than relying on its own Strength of Character for its survival(a positive virtue), is only a very very short term purchase of time and makes for very torturous living conditions for the people, during this intermediate period before the death of a civilization.

Lack of a full understanding of the criticality and Centrality of this factor- Strength of Character, and how VERY DIRECTLY it impacts on National Security, Military Preparedness, and almost every thing else, including Border Security, in particular, will cause people to think of this post as "Off Topic". it is the privilege of the moderators to think so, if they so wish, and I would not mind either moving of this post or deletion of this post, if they so decide.

But to quote my favorite actor, James Earl Jones, from the cult hit, "Conan the Barbarian",,,,,,,without Strength of Character, "there is nothing and ONLY EMPTINESS"

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jul 2020 21:52

TWITTER

DrApr007:

#BREAKING : PLA constructed approx 20KM roads on "no man land" along Indo-China border near Kinnaur district of Himachal Pradesh. AI submitted the report to Government.


https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/128 ... 08224?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 25 Jul 2020 23:10

Looks like calibrated leaks by GoI to show to the international community that the PRC/CCP are the aggressors and didnt stand by the earlier agreements to not have permanent structures in disputed areas

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SriKumar » 25 Jul 2020 23:49

For the record ....on how China has double-standards even when human lives are at risk, they had started to shutown internal air traffic due to virus in Wuhan, while asking foreign airlines to keep flying. This was even after they knew the infection rates and death rates of the virus.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/bl ... gn-travel/

One does not have to look far to understand the mindset than this official pronouncement. I did not double-check for the veracity of the report or the translation of the official statement (news item on Feb 6th 2020). Of note is their protest against other countries (this includes India) on banning flights from China. WHO's statement/stance on the epidemic is quoted liberally in support of their position. IT speaks volumes about how much they care for civilian lives in their country (their internal matter) or other countries.
https://www.news18.com/news/world/coron ... 90265.html

Foreign Ministry Spokesperson Hua Chunying told the media briefing online on Thursday that the Chinese government is acting with openness, transparency and a high sense of responsibility in sharing information enhancing international cooperation in dealing with the virus.
.....
"As some countries have taken such excessive steps as suspending flights, ICAO (International Civil Aviation Organisation) has also issued bulletins and encouraged all countries to follow WHO recommendations," she said."We deplore and oppose those countries who went against WHO's professional recommendations and ICAO's bulletins and have lodged stern representations with them," she said.

"Their actions, which sowed panic among the public, will not help prevent and control the epidemic. They have gravely disrupted normal personnel exchanges, international cooperation and order of the international market of air transportation," she said.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vidur » 25 Jul 2020 23:55

rsangram wrote:More than weapon systems, policies, government actions, reactions - more than what world powers of all hue do, even more than the nature of our adversaries and even their actions, the MOST Dominant Factor influencing the Security of a People, a Community, a Nation - a Civilization, the "Big Elephant in the room" is the "Strength of Character of its own people".

Another term for "Strength of Character" can be "Moral Compass". They both are practically one and the same. And if a People do not possess a net Strong Character, then they must FIRST and FOREMOST, work on it, almost to the exclusion of all else, on a "War Footing", no matter what it takes.

"Strength of Character" is a very wide all encompassing set of qualities that a People possess. These could be a sum total of negative set of qualities and positive set of qualities, through which you arrive at the "Net" Strength of Character. Strength of Character comprises of many many different qualities, positive or negative, but examples, could be somethings very simple such as Team Work, Honesty, Integrity, Ability to be Strategic(strategic really means ability to "Visualize" or have a Vision-a positive one and make prudent short term sacrifices to realize that medium and long term vision), genuine courage, fearlessness, strong belief and faith in oneself etc. Examples of Negative Qualities could include, obfuscation, diversion, burying your head in the sand, keep making justifications for failure and spinning disasters into triumphs, bend into contortions to be apologists for bad behavior, going to extremes to conceal one's weaknesses and failures, and of course, "kissing up and kicking down"(this is a big one), low tolerance for truth, dishonesty of all kinds, etc.

Lacking the Strength of Character in the general populace, no amount of any other factors such as tanks, aircraft, radar, satellite maps, missiles, even nukes and perhaps even having a dedicated and strong charactered armed forces, IF it is an outlier from the general population, will do NOT MUCH for Security of a Nation or even its borders.

For a Civilization or lack of it, with sketchy Strength of Character, it is only a question of time, before it dies, if it is already not dead, and if it is already not dead, it is simply because its adversaries too have certain shortcomings by way of Strength of Character. But that is no great shakes, because to rely on the adversaries weaknesses for its own survival(a negative virtue), rather than relying on its own Strength of Character for its survival(a positive virtue), is only a very very short term purchase of time and makes for very torturous living conditions for the people, during this intermediate period before the death of a civilization.

Lack of a full understanding of the criticality and Centrality of this factor- Strength of Character, and how VERY DIRECTLY it impacts on National Security, Military Preparedness, and almost every thing else, including Border Security, in particular, will cause people to think of this post as "Off Topic". it is the privilege of the moderators to think so, if they so wish, and I would not mind either moving of this post or deletion of this post, if they so decide.

But to quote my favorite actor, James Earl Jones, from the cult hit, "Conan the Barbarian",,,,,,,without Strength of Character, "there is nothing and ONLY EMPTINESS"


You make an important point. Let me add that strength of character comes from being connected to civilisational roots and living the civilisational culture and values. A civilisation that is colonised mentally faces severe problems in all fields. Language is one indicator of mental colonisation. Germany, Japan, Russia were all devastated after WW2. But recovered fast. Main reason is that they stayed true to their civilisational values and language. Has any colonised country that uses English done well ? I cant think of any.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 26 Jul 2020 00:38

Vidur wrote:

You make an important point. Let me add that strength of character comes from being connected to civilisational roots and living the civilisational culture and values. A civilisation that is colonised mentally faces severe problems in all fields. Language is one indicator of mental colonisation. Germany, Japan, Russia were all devastated after WW2. But recovered fast. Main reason is that they stayed true to their civilisational values and language. Has any colonised country that uses English done well ? I cant think of any.[/quote}

Quite True, and could not agree more.

However, there is a very thin line between what you said, which is 100% true, and then what some others claim, which is that ALL our problems are because of the Firang or BECAUSE we have this slave mentality vis-a-vis the Firang.

I contend that WE HAVE SLAVE mentality, BECAUSE there is an internal flaw in ourselves. So these internal flaws manifest themselves in infected sores such as Slave Mentality.

Case in point. Prithviraj did not lose to Gori because of English. Prior to him Ghaznavi did not succeed in looting India because of English. Raja Dahir did not lose Sindh, because of English. The Shahis did not lose Afghanistan because of English. More recently, the Marathas did not lose to Abdali because of English and prior to that Emperor Hemchandar did not lose to Akbar, because of English. Mind you, I am not faulting these great leaders, I am faulting the support system around them or lack of it, which was due to some Character Defect. The same character defect that caused Mahabharata.

We have to recognize and exorcise that Character Defect, which we have not been able to exorcise so far. And this Character Defect has stayed constant, and despite our history books constantly harping that "we lost because we were divided", we are NO LESS DIVIDED TODAY(along caste lines, regional lines, linguistic lines, so many other lines) than at any other point in our history, perhaps, more so. So, we dont want to learn from history, we dont want to acknowledge our flaws, we want to hide them.

There is a right wing lady that I met once in the interior of the Hindi belt, who vehemently argued with me, that the Hindus have never lost a war. She claimed that all the Turks and Uzbeks and Afghans were our own people, because they were Hindus once, and part of Bharat, and so losing to them does not count as Hindus lost to their own people. She even went on to say that China historically has been part of Indian cultural sphere so it is our own people too, and therefore, losing to China doesnt count. And then she espoused the "Out of India" theory to say that the British were really Indians who went out of India, so their defeat of us doesnt count. So, if we go to such lengths of self denial and delusion, to cover our flaws simply because it is convenient for us at that moment to indulge in debauchery of divisiveness and short term gratification, then we will never acknowledge our own flaws. And just like diagnosis is most of the cure, Acknowledgment is most of the Fix. But if we never ACKNOWLEDGE, we will never fix.

And all our energies, skills, governmental expenditure, private efforts, simply go to cover our own flaws and blaming others. Not that others are not to blame, but the "others' by definition are others, and no friends of ours. Why will the "others" not screw us ? The question is why will we "screw" ourselves ?

I would even go so far as to say, we can even overcome our fixation with the English language, and progress, with the English language, if we get our fundamentals right. After all, the Harappans spoke an entirely different language than Sanskrit (Sanskrit and English are closer to each other than Harappan and Sanskrit), yet both Harappans and Vedic civilizations thrived, while being 100% Indian. In fact, some claim that Vedics were descendants of Harappans. Again, not to promote English, but the point is that English is not the root of the problem, it is a manifestation of a deeper problem that we have.

The sad part is that any or all Character Problems we have are not that difficult to fix. They are eminently fixable. But we make the fix difficult ourselves, because we have become such slaves to instant gratification, that we are trapped in this vicious cycle of instant gratification, the consequences be damned. We are like a person, who is addicted to sugar. All he does is eat sugar, kilos of sugar, tonnes of sugar, he hoards sugar, he even creates a morality, which extols the virtues of sugar and even more so, of accumulating and hoarding sugar at all costs and creates a society which only values sugar and rewards all those who are addicted to sugar and accumulate sugar, and relegates those who eat a healthy diet or propose a healthy diet to the bottom rung of the society.

On the face of it, it should be easy to fix the sugar addiction, but we have created a society and value system, which makes it next to impossible.
Last edited by rsangram on 26 Jul 2020 01:15, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sudarshan » 26 Jul 2020 01:12

rsangram wrote:...


So this thread is effectively derailed then?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 26 Jul 2020 02:02

sudarshan wrote:
rsangram wrote:...


So this thread is effectively derailed then?



Sorry.

Let us get back to the topic.

What is the latest on the fingers ?

and

What did Gen N say yesterday and Gen O was downright direct, wasnt he ? And that Shukla, I dont even listen to him.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sudarshan » 26 Jul 2020 03:14

^ Is that your idea of sarcasm? Couldn't tell.

If there's nothing to say, don't say it. I.e., if a thread is dormant for lack of new news or developments, let it lie dormant, don't take that opportunity to fill it with your own chatter on sugar addictions and such, that would be derailment.

There might be some other thread where those few posts of yours might be at home. Just some friendly advice, I'm not a mod.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jul 2020 06:05

https://www.indiatoday.in/amp/magazine/ ... ssion=true

The panic buys

Amid border tensions with China, the armed forces go on a weapon buying spree. Even as a robust indigenous defence production set-up remains the need of the hour.

Sandeep Unnithan New Delhi July 25, 2020

As the Himalayan stand-off between the Indian Army and the People’s Liberation Army of China in eastern Ladakh entered its fourth month, the country’s armed forces embarked on a fresh round of emergency fast-track procurements (FTPs) of weapons and ammunition to replenish their arsenal. The defence ministry is buzzing with activity as files and proposals are being drafted for approvals in South Block with a speed that only crisis brings.

On the anvil are a slew of weapon imports, including light tanks, tank ammunition, surface-to-air missiles,assault rifles and drones, estimated at over Rs 10,000 crore from three of India’s biggest defence suppliers, Russia, the US and Israel. The weapons are meant to equip the army and the air force forward-deployed in Ladakh since late May. On July 16, the defence ministry allowedemergency procurements worth Rs 500 crore for each of the three services, with no restrictions on the number of such programmes.

The army, which has deployed four divisions in the theatre of action, has the most numerous requirements. It wants kamikaze drones, anti-tank guided munitions, shoulder-fired missiles, high-mobility vehicles and GPS-guided shells for the newly-acquired ultra-light howitzers, and even ammunition for small arms (see Fast-Track Purchases). The air force wants additional shipments of Derby and MICA air-to-air missiles and Spice-1000 precision-guided munitions for its fighters. Rather than wait to integrate Israeli munitions on its Rafale fighter jets, it has opted for French Hammer precision-guided munitions to equip its first five jets flying in from France, literally into the thick of action, on July 29. A defence ministry official indicated that almost 100 cases are in the contractual process, to be concluded by the end of the current financial year, March 2021.

The road less taken

The world over, defence purchases are a cumbersome process lasting several years. In India, the byzantine procurement process involves the civil and military bureaucracy as well as the political leadership, which means it could take even a decade to purchase anything from a sophisticated fighter jet to a bulletproof jacket. The armed forces have to identify requirements, look for hardware that meets their needs, conduct extensive trials and finally invite competing bids from global suppliers. The arrival of the Rafale jets is the culmination of a process that began soon after the 1999 Kargil War, with the contract finally signed in 2016.

Emergency FTPs, which shorten the defence ministry’s cumbersome weapons acquisition processes, first began during the Kargil War. The army found its ammunition stocks insufficient to last even that short border conflict. Artillery, essential for softening up enemy targets before soldiers can move in, relies on a constant supply of ammunition. A 155 mm Bofors gun, for instance, requires at least 250 shells per day to fire in an offensive mode. In Kargil, even as Indian artillery trained their gunsights at features like Tiger Hill and in Batalik, army and defence ministry procurement teams were flying into Cape Town and Tel Aviv to top up the depleting stocks of shells.

The FTP, a beguiling enemy-at-the-gates syndrome, has been a feature of every military crisis ever since. The purchases triggered by the ongoing Ladakh stand-off would be the third occasion in recent years when the armed forces went on an emergency weapons and ammunition-buying spree. FTPs had also followed the cross-border raids by Indian forces in the aftermath of the September 2016 Uri terror attack and the February 2019 air strikes in Balakot, when India and Pakistan once again teetered on the brink of a conflict.

An army official explains how FTPs and the delegation of emergency financial powers are helpful. Between January 2014 and October 2016, the army concluded 20 contracts valued at Rs 400 crore. When the delegation of powers happened in 2016, the army did contracts worth Rs 11,000 crore. “It gave a big boost to this model and revived the government’s confidence, and therefore, it was allowed to go beyond the stipulated time and 40 more contacts worth Rs 4,500 crore were done through this process,” says the official.

FTPs can be explained by India’s heavy and continuing dependence on imported military hardware. The country was the world’s second-largest importer of arms in 2014-18 and accounts for 9.2 per cent of the global arms sales.

Indian armed forces are among the five largest in the world. At $71 billion, India’s defence budget in 2019 was only a fraction of what the US ($705.4 billion) and China ($261 billion) spent, but it was still the world’s third largest. The failure to create an indigenous military-industrial complex that would keep pace with a military machine and its requirements is what leads to imports of fighter jets, tanks and submarines. While these acquisitions significantly boost combat capability, they also leave the country vulnerable to imports. “Your capability to fight anything, from a local skirmish to a long war, is ultimately dictated by your domestic production capabilities,” says Lt General Sanjay Kulkarni, former director general, Infantry.

Government campaigns for self-reliance, Make in India in 2014 and Atmanirbhar Bharat in 2020, have not been turned into roadmaps towards achieving self-sufficiency in weapons requirements.

Among the early indications that the Ladakh stand-off was going to be a prolonged one, necessitating overseas weapons purchases, was defence minister Rajnath Singh’s visit to Moscow in June. Singh was there as a state guest at the Victory Day parade on June 24. He took along a defence ministry delegation, including the defence secretary, senior bureaucrats and military officials, and spent a full day meeting key members of Russia’s military-industrial complex and discussing urgent buys from India’s largest overseas supplier.

Indigenous the way

Proponents of an indigenous defence industrial base say fast-track imports are like a foot in the door and gradually expand into larger orders, diverting limited budgetary resources. The army is close to placing a second order of 72,000 battle rifles from US arms-maker SIG Sauer, after an identical purchase last year. Indian manufacturers who have invested in developing domestic capabilities to design and develop small arms are aghast. “FTPs strike the biggest blow to Indian industry. When the armed forces go for foreign weapons, even small arms, you are effectively telling the world that your indigenous capacity is worthless. When we try and export, the first question we are asked is ‘why isn’t your own army buying your products’,” says the CEO of a private sector firm.

The Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) is worried that an order for a regiment (45 vehicles) of Russian 2SDS ‘Sprut’ light tanks for use in high-altitude terrains like Ladakh will kill its own under-the-wraps light tank project. The infantry wants more Israeli-built ‘Spike’ anti-tank guided missiles (ATGMs) even as the DRDO is readying an indigenous man portable anti-tank guided missile (MPATGM) for the army.

A bulk of the current fast-track buys are for ammunition. The shortfalls, army officials say, have been caused by the Ordnance Factory Board (OFB), whose 41 factories have failed to keep the supply lines running. The OFB is part of the defence ministry’s Department of Defence Production. A series of Comptroller and Auditor General (CAG) reports have highlighted deficiencies in OFB-produced ammunition. A 2015 CAG report noted that 74 per cent of 170 types of ammunition failed to meet the ‘minimum acceptable risk level’ and only 10 per cent met the ‘war wastage reserve’ requirements. Another CAG audit for 2017-18 presented in Parliament in December 2019 said that the ordnance factories ‘had achieved production targets for only 49 per cent of the items’. A significant quantity of the army’s demand for principal ammunition items remained outstanding as on March 31, 2018, adversely impacting its operational preparedness, said the report. OFB exports, the report said, decreased by 39 per cent in 2017-18 over 2016-17.

On May 16 this year, finance minister Nirmala Sitharaman announced that the government was corporatising the OFB to improve ‘autonomy, accountability and efficiency in ordnance supplies’. Corporatisation, though, could take several years to bear fruit.

Attempts at private sector ammunition production have not taken off either, though not for want of capacity, capability or investments. In June, the army’s Master General of Ordnance Branch inexplicably pulled the plug on a 2016 plan to procure ammunition from the private sector. A brainchild of then defence minister Manohar Parrikar, the plan had aimed to bring the private sector into what was until then a government monopoly. It studied the 2016 experience where ammunition deficiencies led to fast-track buys. The goal was not only import substitution but also to create a vast domestic ammunition manufacturing capacity that the armed forces could tap into in an emergency. Deliveries would commence from six months of signing of the contract and spread over 10 years.

Fifteen private sector firms had planned to bid for eight procurement contracts for specialised tank, anti-aircraft and infantry ammunition for the army’s vast Russian-origin arsenal of battle tanks, anti-aircraft guns, multiple grenade launchers and 155 mm artillery guns (see A Lost Opportunity). Some of the private players had even established plants and scouted for international partners, anticipating orders. Five requests for proposal (RFPs) for ammunition were withdrawn while no decision has been taken on proposals for BMCS (Bi Modular Charge System) and fuses. With the collapse of long-term capability building plans, short-term weapons acquisitions will continue to remain more attractive.



_________________________

TWITTER

@SandeepUnnithan:

Fast track procurements are the result of an acquisition system thats not fit for purpose. A baffling enemy at the gates syndrome that kicks in during every military crisis. I report in the latest issue of @IndiaToday magazine

And this, the most worrying aspect. The systematic dismantling of a ‘Parrikar plan’ to ensure self-sufficiency in critical ammunition. The withdrawal of these ammo RFPs recently means many of these items will now be imported. Only foreign firms will be #atmanirbhar

https://twitter.com/SandeepUnnithan/sta ... 23840?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 26 Jul 2020 07:59

One would think that Parrikar would have left few notes and importing internal enemies to watch out for PM.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 26 Jul 2020 08:08

rsangram, you are just one warning away from a permanent ban. This reprieve is your very last chance.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 26 Jul 2020 08:16


Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Jul 2020 08:50


I am very sceptical, China seems to assessed we dont have the capability to do serious damage due to our broken defense procurement. I don't think they will withdraw, we don't seem to have capability to fight PLA, deter Pakistan and various internal enemies all at the same time.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsingh » 26 Jul 2020 11:30

^^^^
Looks like that. Or is it some trick of MEA babus to defang enemy with talks onlee :P

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 12:19

rsingh wrote:^^^^
Looks like that. Or is it some trick of MEA babus to defang enemy with talks onlee :P



How are you doing? How is your son doing?


BTW these are 5th round of talks between Army commanders. Not MEA.

It's about restoring status quo. Let's see.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 12:21

Aditya_V wrote:

I am very sceptical, China seems to assessed we dont have the capability to do serious damage due to our broken defense procurement. I don't think they will withdraw, we don't seem to have capability to fight PLA, deter Pakistan and various internal enemies all at the same time.



If what you think is correct they wouldn't be talking.

How about we put a halt to chaddi shivering and letting our fears here?

Not just you but everyone.
Sorry for using your post as example.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 12:22

Rsangram, please stop your nonsense.

Please dont post in this thread or you will be banned.
RAMANA

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 26 Jul 2020 12:26

manjgu wrote:actually i never understood why zozila was not tunneled and rohtang was !!! i mean even after 1999 we could not comprehend the significance of all weather road connnectivity to ladhak from kashmir valley ...india. The indian logistic train to kashmir & ladhak is v long as well..practically everything in ladhak comes from the plains.. punjab..UP..and beyond. thats easily like 1000 km at the minimum. ( though srinagar to leh road is much much improved now... drivers routinely do 80 to 100 kmph on many stretches of the road).

Zoji-la is also being tunneled, as is the z-morh. However, yes, the Rohtang tunnel was initiated first by ABV, apparently due to strong lobbying back then (per Wiki). My guess why the govt prioritized the Rohtang route is that Leh's supply line was too long as it was, going through the Kashmir valley which itself was difficult enough (and quite restive), and maybe the govt decided to not take a chance with another Kargil being able to cut off the line to Leh. The Manali route offers a good depth from the LoC, while not going too close to the LAC. This would help our logistics to not only SSN, but Siachen as well.

I suppose the bankruptcy of IL&FS also impacted - they were the concessionaire for both Zoji-La and Z-morh and both got delayed as a result.

As for the Kashmir valley, the priorities were to strengthen connectivity to the valley itself. So apart from finishing the railway line, we needed to upgrade the existing 2-lane Jawahar tunnel and build the new Chenani-Nashri (SP Mookherjee) tunnel, among others. The Chenani-Nashri tunnel 4-lane tunnel is now finished, and while the Jawahar tunnel has been operational, an alternative is under construction (Banihal-Qazigund sector). This PDF from the Ramban district website shows the status of the 4-lane work between Udhampur-Nashri-Ramban-Banihal-Qazigund. I believe the road is already 4-lane beyond Qazigund up to Srinagar and up to Udhampur, so with this project completed, valley connectivity would be via a faster 4-lane road right from Jammu. Yes, there are challenges like in the railway line, but work seems to be proceeding nevertheless.

https://ramban.gov.in/national-highway-nh-44/
Status of NH-44 4-lane work in Ramban district: https://cdn.s3waas.gov.in/s3ae0eb3eed39 ... 011263.pdf

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 12:32

Manish, These guys while Manoharji was alive were taking regular potshots at him.
So dont fall for their tears.
Parrikar plan assumedbthere is time.
Depsang, Dokhlam, RiaSAT, and Galwan show no time.

To integrate SPICE on Rafale will take time.
So if you dont buy those HAMMER bombs you would rule out the Rafale from air to ground role. After a2a role they become hanger queens.

I can argue for the rest of the decisions but will leave to others.

All are justified.
Am glad the procurement knot is cut.

These imports are via govt to govt.. Some cases foreign govts are giving their stocks

Its that important.

Unnithan did yeoman service typing the Amar Jawan site names.

So I have soft corner till now.
Its over.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vidur » 26 Jul 2020 12:41

ramana wrote:
rsingh wrote:^^^^
Looks like that. Or is it some trick of MEA babus to defang enemy with talks onlee :P



How are you doing? How is your son doing?


BTW these are 5th round of talks between Army commanders. Not MEA.

It's about restoring status quo. Let's see.


This is my personal opinion : I don't believe Chinese will restore status quo ante. They are convinced we will not use kinetic action. If they believed we would, they would have been more amenable to withdrawal. But instead their posture has become militarily stronger and more intransigent. It is up to us to restore the situation now. Deterrence by punishment has to be looked at. Deterrence by denial is not enough.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 12:44

Again let's see!
If they don't vacate F8 there will be force.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsingh » 26 Jul 2020 12:51

ramana wrote:
rsingh wrote:^^^^
Looks like that. Or is it some trick of MEA babus to defang enemy with talks onlee :P



How are you doing? How is your son doing?


BTW these are 5th round of talks between Army commanders. Not MEA.

It's about restoring status quo. Let's see.


Sir I am doing well. Son discontinued study at Oxford. He has his own views. He wants to be entrepreneur. Oxford changed him.He doesn't like elitism at Oxford. This all happened when he bumped in some Noble laureate economist and Philosopher at local book store. Now he is in real estate investment. This guy is still doing experiments. :|

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 26 Jul 2020 13:06

Good kid. I liked the trailer of his film. Is it on YouTube?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vidur » 26 Jul 2020 13:19

ramana wrote:Manish, These guys while Manoharji was alive were taking regular potshots at him.
So dont fall for their tears.
Parrikar plan assumedbthere is time.
Depsang, Dokhlam, RiaSAT, and Galwan show no time.

To integrate SPICE on Rafale will take time.
So if you dont buy those HAMMER bombs you would rule out the Rafale from air to ground role. After a2a role they become hanged queens.

I can argue for the rest of the decisions but will leave to others.

All are justified.
Am glad the procurement knot is cut.

These imports are via govt to govt.. Some cases foreign govts are giving their stocks

Its that important.

Unnithan did yeoman service typing the Amar Jawan site names.

So I have soft corner till now.
Its over.


I endorse your statement.

As is known in the open domain there have been severe and dangerous shortfalls in ammunition for many years. Despite partial budgetary support being given in some areas OFB has not been able to produce. And its quality of munitions is substandard. Therefore there is no option but to go via Fast Track Route. If we did not, then we would not be in a position to face the current crisis.

Su 30 and Mig 29 procurements were talked about in 2019. They are both of existing systems from existing suppliers used with armed forces. Small arms requirement is huge. Only a fraction of what is needed is being procured via FTP and then again, proposal is for a repeat order. If you purchase small arms from pvt sector in India, it will be a new system from a new supplier who does not have any systems sold anywhere in the world. It will need trials and a competitive tendering process. Will not be possible through FTP route. Yes, they should be supported. A separate budget allocation and a new policy made. But armed forces budgets are under severe strain. They are having to prioritise ruthelessly and only objective is war fighting now.

Ministry also faces a problem. OFB, DPSUs cannot be touched/deprived. So naturally pvt sector gets hit. You all have followed SPP model of DPP 16. SPP model which was earmarked for pvt sector has not fructified because DPSU/OFB have muscled in. HAL is publicly attacking anyone who questions/holds them to account in NUH case (a SPP case). Public Sector is very good in PR and victim card playing. We have not been able to execute a defined policy like SPP. We have failed the country by failing to harness and support pvt sector. Its a fact and most blame lies with ministry. But that is a structural problem of the bureaucracy which I have brought out a few times. Current structures will not solve it. Radical revamp is needed. But don't criticise bare minimium emergency purchases. Yes, they are a symptom of our decades long failures. But they are absolutely essential.
Last edited by Vidur on 26 Jul 2020 13:46, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jul 2020 13:24

ramana wrote:Manish, These guys while Manoharji was alive were taking regular potshots at him.
So dont fall for their tears.
Parrikar plan assumedbthere is time.
Depsang, Dokhlam, RiaSAT, and Galwan show no time......



All are justified.
Am glad the procurement knot is cut.

These imports are via govt to govt.. Some cases foreign govts are giving their stocks

Its that important.

Unnithan did yeoman service typing the Amar Jawan site names.

So I have soft corner till now.

Its over.


Yes Ramana ji, I wouldn't have put a India Today article here but for Unnithan.... thanks for bringing light to the matter...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 26 Jul 2020 13:39

ramana wrote:Manish, These guys while Manoharji was alive were taking regular potshots at him.
So dont fall for their tears.
Parrikar plan assumedbthere is time.
Depsang, Dokhlam, RiaSAT, and Galwan show no time.

To integrate SPICE on Rafale will take time.
So if you dont buy those HAMMER bombs you would rule out the Rafale from air to ground role. After a2a role they become hanger queens.

I can argue for the rest of the decisions but will leave to others.

All are justified.
Am glad the procurement knot is cut.

These imports are via govt to govt.. Some cases foreign govts are giving their stocks

Its that important.

Unnithan did yeoman service typing the Amar Jawan site names.

So I have soft corner till now.
Its over.


As a NATO weapon, it should be plug & play. Incidentally even France used US JDAM when Hammer was not available. Anyway multiple procurement can run together for Hammer, Spice, JDAM, Guruthma.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 26 Jul 2020 13:43

Vidur wrote:
ramana wrote:Manish, These guys while Manoharji was alive were taking regular potshots at him.
So dont fall for their tears.
Parrikar plan assumedbthere is time.
Depsang, Dokhlam, RiaSAT, and Galwan show no time.

To integrate SPICE on Rafale will take time.
So if you dont buy those HAMMER bombs you would rule out the Rafale from air to ground role. After a2a role they become hanged queens.

I can argue for the rest of the decisions but will leave to others.

All are justified.
Am glad the procurement knot is cut.

These imports are via govt to govt.. Some cases foreign govts are giving their stocks

Its that important.

Unnithan did yeoman service typing the Amar Jawan site names.

So I have soft corner till now.
Its over.


I endorse your statement.

As is known in the open domain there have been severe and dangerous shortfalls in ammunition for many years. Despite partial budgetary support being given in some areas OFB has not been able to produce. And its quality of munitions is substandard. Therefore there is no option but to go via Fast Track Route. If we did not, then we would not be in a position to face the current crisis.

Su 30 and Mig 29 procurements were talked about in 2019. They are both of existing systems from existing suppliers used with armed forces. Small arms requirement is huge. Only a fraction of what is needed is being procured via FTP and then again, proposal is for a repeat order. If you purchase small arms from pvt sector in India, it will be a new system from a new supplier who does not have any systems sold anywhere in the world. It will need trials and a competitive tendering process. Will not be possible through FTP route. Yes, they should be supported. A separate budget allocation and a new policy made. But armed forces budgets are under severe strain. They are having to prioritise ruthelessly and only objective is war fighting now.

Ministry also faces a problem. OFB, DPSUs cannot be touched/deprived. So naturally pvt sector gets hit. You all have followed SPP model of DPP 16. SPP model which was earmarked for pvt sector has not fructified because DPSU/OFB have muscled in. HAL is publicly attacking anyone who questions/holds them to account in NUH case (a DPP case). Public Sector is very good in PR and victim card playing. We have not been able to execute a defined policy like DPP. We have failed the country by failing to harness and support pvt sector. Its a fact and most blame lies with ministry. But that is a structural problem of the bureaucracy which I have brought out a few times. Current structures will not solve it. Radical revamp is needed. But don't criticise bare minimium emergency purchases. Yes, they are a symptom of our decades long failures. But they are absolutely essential.


We had three potential war like situations in last 6 years. Post Surgical strikes, post Balakot & Today. Extraordinarily is routine now. Pvt Sector can be groomed by slowly starting some orders like say 20% of quantity. Whether its just Bureaucratic inertia or pvt sector is being kept out by a coterie, is an important issue.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vidur » 26 Jul 2020 13:48

In above post which you have replied to please read DPP as SPP from line 3 , para 4 onwards

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 26 Jul 2020 14:26

ramana wrote:Again let's see!
If they don't vacate F8 there will be force.

What if they allow our patrol to proceed to F8 as in earlier years? They can occupy yet let us hold on to our claim.

Realistically, this being the Chinese, I think they will not let the patrol proceed past F5. Will that be cause for war? I am not sure. I think the wiser plan would be to grab and fortify key positions at other strategic locations along the LAC during or right after winter.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 26 Jul 2020 14:39

yensoy wrote:
ramana wrote:Again let's see!
If they don't vacate F8 there will be force.

What if they allow our patrol to proceed to F8 as in earlier years? They can occupy yet let us hold on to our claim.

Realistically, this being the Chinese, I think they will not let the patrol proceed past F5. Will that be cause for war? I am not sure. I think the wiser plan would be to grab and fortify key positions at other strategic locations along the LAC during or right after winter.


A different way to look at it, would be that as long as China has any structure (or people) present west of finger 8, we will continue to deem
China to be in occupation of our land (west of LAC land). That would mean we continue with measures to hurt China's trade surplus with India
and accelerate our own deployment, procurement and infrastructure development- while China loses face because they have achieved nothing from making 40,000 men camp in Ladakh for 3 months- except for occupying 4 km (as the crow flies) of land in the finger area, that they were in de-facto control of anyway. Let the onus be on China to figure out for how long they want to play this land grab game.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 26 Jul 2020 14:54

Gyan wrote:As a NATO weapon, it should be plug & play. Incidentally even France used US JDAM when Hammer was not available. Anyway multiple procurement can run together for Hammer, Spice, JDAM, Guruthma.

I don't think that's right, they used Paveways LGBs (which I understand the US has stopped buying). IIRC most euro jets are not integrated with JDAMS.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 26 Jul 2020 14:56

Deans wrote:
yensoy wrote:What if they allow our patrol to proceed to F8 as in earlier years? They can occupy yet let us hold on to our claim.

Realistically, this being the Chinese, I think they will not let the patrol proceed past F5. Will that be cause for war? I am not sure. I think the wiser plan would be to grab and fortify key positions at other strategic locations along the LAC during or right after winter.


A different way to look at it, would be that as long as China has any structure (or people) present west of finger 8, we will continue to deem
China to be in occupation of our land (west of LAC land). That would mean we continue with measures to hurt China's trade surplus with India
and accelerate our own deployment, procurement and infrastructure development- while China loses face because they have achieved nothing from making 40,000 men camp in Ladakh for 3 months- except for occupying 4 km (as the crow flies) of land in the finger area, that they were in de-facto control of anyway. Let the onus be on China to figure out for how long they want to play this land grab game.

This is the perfect situation and path for us. No hot war but full escalation and forcing a escalation on the Chinese side; strategic trade blockades to hurt them the most since they have violated the border peace agreement. We also need to entrench our post on F3/F4 and ensure they do not patrol anywhere west of where they are (because I believe we used to patrol to F8 and they used to patrol to F2).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 26 Jul 2020 14:58

So babus blame PSU/OFBs, PSU/OFB blame babus and Forces and Forces blame babus and PSU/OFBs. And of course the political leadership is above the hoi polloi, when the brown stuff hits the fan, every one is given a "free hand" (to import). It's been 6+ years, no point quoting verses of DPP as catechism, it's time to talk about results.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 26 Jul 2020 15:00

Chinis are in an interesting paradox. The longer they hold the land, more will be the economic losses. But after this standoff & clashes, even if the Chinis do go back, there is no guarantee India will rollback the economic changes. Not to mention having to loose face at the prospect of a retreat. They might be thinking , we might as well keep it.

However if they do keep holding those 5-10KM, they have to guard against a potential Indian attack, even in winter. If they leave the place in winter, we might walk it. Also maintain a larger force across LAC, to manage any escalation. All of this, for a gain of 5-10KM of no man's land.
Last edited by nam on 26 Jul 2020 16:26, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 26 Jul 2020 15:08

Gyan wrote:
As a NATO weapon, it should be plug & play.


Israel is not member of NATO. SPICE isn't NATO weapon.


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