India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 26 Jul 2020 15:10

abhik wrote:So babus blame PSU/OFBs, PSU/OFB blame babus and Forces and Forces blame babus and PSU/OFBs. And of course the political leadership is above the hoi polloi, when the brown stuff hits the fan, every one is given a "free hand" (to import). It's been 6+ years, no point quoting verses of DPP as catechism, it's time to talk about results.


Defense is a very technical topic. It is not easy for a regular politician (DM) to understand it. All he is concerned is if a buy becomes a scam or not.

MP was a technical man. He was able to grasp the topic well. For others, DRDO says it works. Service says it doesn't. DRDO says Service have changed their mind. Services says it is obsolete. DRDO says we have the tech. Services says we don't, need to import.

Babus says, don't give to private, it will become a scam. Babus will ask DPSU union to strike and ask their media friends to make more noise.

So what will the politician do? Whom will he believe, even if he really wanted to make more local kit?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 26 Jul 2020 15:11

Forget for a moment why June 15/16 night bloodshed happened but after that can Chinese really rest in peace that India will NOT cross the CCL to claim back LOST territory or make a fresh counter incursion across the CCL at some other place to compensate for that loss as soon as the Chinese start thinning troops @ the CCL.

Either Chinese start preparing for a permanent deployment at the LAC or get an agreement out of the Indian leadership to maintain status quo, whatever be the baseline date.

IF the Indian and the Chinese cannot hammer out an agreement on the status quo, the Chinese have no option but to prepare to deploy on the CCL permanently past this winter and the next and the next ... Indians too have to permanently deploy to counter the Chinese on the LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 26 Jul 2020 15:22

nam wrote:
abhik wrote:So babus blame PSU/OFBs, PSU/OFB blame babus and Forces and Forces blame babus and PSU/OFBs. And of course the political leadership is above the hoi polloi, when the brown stuff hits the fan, every one is given a "free hand" (to import). It's been 6+ years, no point quoting verses of DPP as catechism, it's time to talk about results.


Defense is a very technical topic. It is not easy for a regular politician (DM) to understand it. All he is concerned is if a buy becomes a scam or not.

MP was a technical man. He was able to grasp the topic well. For others, DRDO says it works. Service says it doesn't. DRDO says Service have changed their mind. Services says it is obsolete. DRDO says we have the tech. Services says we don't, need to import.

Babus says, don't give to private, it will become a scam. Babus will ask DPSU union to strike and ask their media friends to make more noise.

So what will the politician do? Whom will he believe, even if he really wanted to make more local kit?
The easiest way to cut the clutter is to start a competition between the DPSU/OFB and the private sector.

Pick a product that has high volume, split the DPSU/OFB facility for that product into two and leases one half to a private sector player for a fixed sum. Allow the DPSU/OFB to compete with the private player on quality/price/delivery timelines.

That way the private sector guy does not have put money upfront, the DPSU/OFB facility gets used and rent for GOI, the DPSU/OFB gets competition.

Babus do not get to scream scam if the private sector can beat the DPSU/OFB on quality, price and timelines.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 26 Jul 2020 15:22

Gyan wrote:We have to analyze two limitations on PLA. Altitude problems for PLAAF Aircraft from Tibetan Airfields. Slowly some material is coming out on this. If MTOW falls by 40% then all Airfields except Hotan are practically useless, while Hotan will also have MTOW fall by 20%.

Assuming India would have 2x Airfields, with aircraft taking off with 2x weapon load, & 2x sortie rate against China. This gives India qualitative edge of 5x-15x Vs. Chinese Aircrafts

One thing that has been nagging me, and maybe gurus can clarify. While our Air Force has a qualitative edge in defending our airspace (since most of our bases except Leh and Srinagar are close to MSL), are we able to have an offensive edge, especially in the northern sector? I ask because Leh is quite high and might have the same payload restriction problems the Chinese bases in Tibet would have. Srinagar, while not that high, would still be limited by needing to defend the LAC as well (not sure if there are payload restrictions here as well).

That leaves us with the bases on the plains in Punjab/Haryana/UP. Here, the one-way between Demchok/DBO to, say Pathankot, is around 350/400km respectively. With Bareilly, it increases to 450/750km respectively. Gwalior, of course is even higher. While we can deal with the central sector as these latter bases are closer to the UK-Tibet or Nepal-Tibet border, I am wondering how our northern sector would fare. Like the Chinese, we too don't have a lot of tankers to give extra range to our fighters, and as I see it, only the Sukhois and Mirages have a decent internal range to make a real difference in the north.

Eastern is similar to the central sector in the sense that the distance to Tibet is not as high, so we should be okay there.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 26 Jul 2020 15:29

Most of key IAF bases will be on the plains, Adampur,Budgam Srinagar, Avantipura Ambala, Chandigarh, Hindon, Bareilly apart from other Central and Eastern Sector airbases.. These will be common with Pakistan due to geography, Leh is more for defensive than offensive strikes.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 26 Jul 2020 15:30

pankajs wrote:The easiest way to cut the clutter is to start a competition between the DPSU/OFB and the private sector.

Pick a product that has high volume, split the DPSU/OFB facility for that product into two and leases one half to a private sector player for a fixed sum. Allow the DPSU/OFB to compete with the private player on quality/price/delivery timelines.

That way the private sector guy does not have put money upfront, the DPSU/OFB facility gets used and rent for GOI, the DPSU/OFB gets competition.

Babus do not get to scream scam if the private sector can beat the DPSU/OFB on quality, price and timelines.


There are enough logical solution to our problems. But the point is they will not be implemented. Why should MoD babus allow competition to DPSU?

It is very easy to create a scam out of a order given to private entity. Remember Reliance's Rafale "scam"? Reliance was not even producing anything for Rafale.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 26 Jul 2020 15:33

^^
Not if the same product is being provided where the DPSU/OFB is beaten on quality/price and timelines by a private player.

That is why it has to be some high volume small item product like bullets or Tank ammo, etc. One can't have 2 Rafale lines just for competition's sake but one can have 2 lines for bullets, one with DPSU/OFB and one in private sector or a DPSU/OFB facility managed by a private player.

It needs political will.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 26 Jul 2020 18:50

Interesting conversation with Lt. Gen. Sharma and Lt. Gen. Hooda.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xxmc7i01Q4s

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anoop » 26 Jul 2020 19:47

https://theprint.in/defence/chinese-transgression-at-lac-is-just-like-pakistan-in-kargil-former-ladakh-corps-commander/466528/

Pannu, who has served in the area in 2016-17, said the terrain on the Chinese side of the LAC gave their troops an advantage as the ground is not only more open but also has thin snow levels. He added that the Chinese have built better infrastructure and have been doing so over a period of time.

“As a result, armed and other vehicles that are centrally heated can come in more quickly. During the winters, it hardly snows in that area,” he said. “So, their side of the passes are always open and to that extent, their chances of coming into those areas during winters is more convenient and more possible.”

In the backdrop of the recent Indian and Chinese corps commanders’ meetings, one of which lasted nearly 15 hours, Pannu said if both spoke the same language, the duration would be reduced to half or even to one third of the time.

“The Chinese speak in metaphors. When you convert metaphoric language into direct language, you can miss something said or unsaid,” he said.

The discussions do not usually always take place on one map, he said.

“The Chinese have their own maps and we do not agree with how they are made and the lines drawn. To start talking the same thing at the same level of understanding takes very long, therefore making the reference to the same points on ground takes a long time,” he said.

According to Pannu, the Chinese often talk about historical records and keep pulling out maps after maps, even misquoting Indian Army senior officers’ past statements to keep substantiating their point of view.

They often keep justifying action of troops, covering up their miscalculations made by their own subordinate commanders on ground, he said.

“In the absence of an overwatch, which itself is not a good idea, the two Asian nations should sort out the disagreements between themselves amicably and in a mature way,” he said.

“If all of a sudden you increase the frequency of patrols, they would get rattled and come to the hotline and ask why we are sending a patrol everyday or every second day,” he said.

Pannu also said retrograde operations are always more complicated.

“There is a trust deficit between the two sides on ground and a military commander on ground would not want to leave the ground to be occupied by the opponent,” he said.

So there is always going to be a delay because the commanders would want to make sure that there is a clean break between the two opposing forces.

“It is a transition which can take a long time,” Pannu said. “Judgements cannot be made frequently on who is winning or losing. These movements are deliberate, slow and have to be carried with a lot of caution.”

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pahadig » 26 Jul 2020 23:55

is this true???

http://www.uawire.org/russia-suspends-d ... -to-china#

"Russian newest S-400 air defense systems, acquired by China several years ago, were left without anti-aircraft guided missiles because Russia decided to stop supplying these weapons to China, reports the Chinese newspaper Sohu. The Russian side could not name the timing for the resumption of deliveries. It has been almost five months since the supplies have stopped.

"This time, Russia announced the postponement of the delivery of missiles for the Chinese S-400 system. To a certain extent, we can say that it is for the sake of China. Getting a gun is not as easy as signing an invoice after receiving a weapon. They say that the work on delivering these weapons is quite complicated. While China has to send personnel for training, Russia also needs to send a lot of technical personnel to put the weapons into service," writes Sohu.

“The reasons given by Russia are very heartwarming. It turns out that Russia is worried that the delivery of S-400 missiles at this time will affect the anti-pandemic actions of the Chinese army and does not want to cause trouble to China,“ Sohu adds."

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Jul 2020 00:05

TWITTER

DrApr007:

In case of two front...., assurance has been taken from few close allies like Russia,USA,Israel & France.
Afghanistan is going to deploy 20 thousand additional troopers along the Pak-Afghan border.Many more things r going to happen in coming weeks.Will share with u on right time

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/128 ... 41792?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby wig » 27 Jul 2020 09:31

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... pySlK.html

India moves squadron of missile-firing T-90 tanks to last outpost near Karakoram Pass
exctracts
With the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) deploying close to 50,000 troops in Aksai Chin, the Indian Army for the first time has deployed a squadron (12) T-90 missile firing tanks, armoured personnel carriers (APCs) and a full troop brigade (4,000 men) at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) to prevent any Chinese aggression from the Shaksgam-Karakoram pass axis, according to top military commanders familiar with the matter.

India’s last outpost at Daulet Beg Oldi DBO lies at a height of 16,000 feet just south of Karakoram pass and on banks of Chip-Chap river, north of the Galwan-Shyok confluence.

As some bridges on the Darbuk-Shyok-DBO road cannot handle the weight of a 46 ton T-90 tank, the Indian Army commanders sent the T-90 tanks after the June 15 Galwan flare-up by fording the rivers and rivulets using specialized equipment. The armoured personnel carriers (APCs) or infantry combat vehicles , M 777 155mm howitzers, and 130 mm guns had already been sent to DBO after Chinese aggression at patrolling points 14, 15, 16 , 17 and the Pangong Tso finger features.

and
According to the military commanders, the main purpose of PLA aggression this summer was to clear all the friction points with the Indian Army along the 1147 km long line of actual control (LAC) in East Ladakh and impose the 1960 map claim. However, this attempt was forcefully repelled by the men of 16 Bihar who took on the 3 Mechanized Infantry of Xinjiang Military district on June 15 at Galwan.


This plan dovetailed into a larger plan of linking the G219 highway to G314 (Kashgar-Islamabad Karakoram highway) via Karakoram-Shaksgam pass axis in order to save not only time but distance.

A fruition of this plan would have made Indian army positions untenable not only at DBO but also at Siachen as the outpost is linked to Sansoma (crucial base on Nubra river before Siachen) via Saser la-Murgo axis.
In many ways, Pervez Musharraf‘s plan to interdict Srinagar-Kargil highway and starve Indian positions at Siachen during the 1999 Kargil war between India and Pakistan has a parallel in China’s Xi Jinping’s attempt to interdict the DSDBO road to cut off DBO 21 years later.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 27 Jul 2020 09:51

nam wrote:Chinis are in an interesting paradox. The longer they hold the land, more will be the economic losses. But after this standoff & clashes, even if the Chinis do go back, there is no guarantee India will rollback the economic changes. Not to mention having to loose face at the prospect of a retreat. They might be thinking , we might as well keep it.

However if they do keep holding those 5-10KM, they have to guard against a potential Indian attack, even in winter. If they leave the place in winter, we might walk it. Also maintain a larger force across LAC, to manage any escalation. All of this, for a gain of 5-10KM of no man's land.


The other problem for China is that if the intrusions had not happened, we would have had no plans to build any structure east of finger 3. (where
our ITBP camp is). Now there is no guarantee we will not occupy the whole of the finger area, once China pulls back. China was earlier exercising
de-facto control of the area upto finger 4 (because we had no structures or roads east of finger 3 and China did), which may not be the case in future.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 27 Jul 2020 10:55

TWITTER

@TheWofpackIN:

Report: Indian Army has deployed a squadron of T-90 MBTs near the last outpost in Daulat Begh Oldi sector in Ladakh. M-777 155mm howitzers and 130mm guns have already been sent to DBO sector.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 88864?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mody » 27 Jul 2020 12:37

https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/opinion/ ... d=msedgdhp

Himachal border is vulnerable, by Lt. Gen P.C. Katoch.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sum » 27 Jul 2020 12:48

nam wrote:Chinis are in an interesting paradox. The longer they hold the land, more will be the economic losses. But after this standoff & clashes, even if the Chinis do go back, there is no guarantee India will rollback the economic changes. Not to mention having to loose face at the prospect of a retreat. They might be thinking , we might as well keep it.

However if they do keep holding those 5-10KM, they have to guard against a potential Indian attack, even in winter. If they leave the place in winter, we might walk it. Also maintain a larger force across LAC, to manage any escalation. All of this, for a gain of 5-10KM of no man's land.

Arent we also loosing big-ly here since it is costing us $$$$ to keep equipped at such altitudes with our rickety infrastructure and poor connectivity, burning cash in a economy which is COVID-struck?

China has huge $$$ reserves and would just be a pinprick for them compared to the outflow for us ( which might be curtailing other spending too since we literally import everything needed there and are still in mode of "emergency buys" even 20 years after Kargil)

Are Chinese really the loosers in this scenario?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 27 Jul 2020 13:26

sum wrote:
nam wrote:Chinis are in an interesting paradox. The longer they hold the land, more will be the economic losses. But after this standoff & clashes, even if the Chinis do go back, there is no guarantee India will rollback the economic changes. Not to mention having to loose face at the prospect of a retreat. They might be thinking , we might as well keep it.

However if they do keep holding those 5-10KM, they have to guard against a potential Indian attack, even in winter. If they leave the place in winter, we might walk it. Also maintain a larger force across LAC, to manage any escalation. All of this, for a gain of 5-10KM of no man's land.

Arent we also loosing big-ly here since it is costing us $$$$ to keep equipped at such altitudes with our rickety infrastructure and poor connectivity, burning cash in a economy which is COVID-struck?

China has huge $$$ reserves and would just be a pinprick for them compared to the outflow for us ( which might be curtailing other spending too since we literally import everything needed there and are still in mode of "emergency buys" even 20 years after Kargil)

Are Chinese really the loosers in this scenario?
A settled border is good for all.

However, earlier we were deployed in strength around the LAC and the Chinese were not. Now both will be deployed in strength. Going to cost both when earlier it was mostly one sided.

However, the cost to India will be greater as a % of GDP compared to China.

However, most of the cost will be internal. The $$$ cost of imports were anyway destined sooner or later and have only been fast tracked but for a few items like the Hammer that was not on the menu. Hammer is extra $$$ outflow.

However, the extra $$$ cost for imports that were not on the menu will be minimal when compared to our $$$ reserves.

Also, $$$ reserves is not the correct metric to evaluate the impact of such expenditure. A better metric is % of GDP that will be expended extra. $$$ reserves are accumulated for a variety of reasons and it is not exactly the thing that it is in public imagination. That is for a separate discussion.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 27 Jul 2020 13:36

sum wrote:
nam wrote:Chinis are in an interesting paradox. The longer they hold the land, more will be the economic losses. But after this standoff & clashes, even if the Chinis do go back, there is no guarantee India will rollback the economic changes. Not to mention having to loose face at the prospect of a retreat. They might be thinking , we might as well keep it.

However if they do keep holding those 5-10KM, they have to guard against a potential Indian attack, even in winter. If they leave the place in winter, we might walk it. Also maintain a larger force across LAC, to manage any escalation. All of this, for a gain of 5-10KM of no man's land.

Arent we also loosing big-ly here since it is costing us $$$$ to keep equipped at such altitudes with our rickety infrastructure and poor connectivity, burning cash in a economy which is COVID-struck?

China has huge $$$ reserves and would just be a pinprick for them compared to the outflow for us ( which might be curtailing other spending too since we literally import everything needed there and are still in mode of "emergency buys" even 20 years after Kargil)

Are Chinese really the loosers in this scenario?


losers winners will be know after some time...right now its a question of do or die !!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 27 Jul 2020 13:42

sum wrote:Arent we also loosing big-ly here since it is costing us $$$$ to keep equipped at such altitudes with our rickety infrastructure and poor connectivity, burning cash in a economy which is COVID-struck?

China has huge $$$ reserves and would just be a pinprick for them compared to the outflow for us ( which might be curtailing other spending too since we literally import everything needed there and are still in mode of "emergency buys" even 20 years after Kargil)

Are Chinese really the loosers in this scenario?


I think both are losing, China is losing a bit more economically but in other areas lost way more.

For India:
Cons
- Spending money which could have been spent elsewhere (opportunity cost)
- Expensive emergency buys, direct economic cost
- Cost of long term deployment
- Loss of men and material due to deployment in difficult environmental conditions
Pros
- Identification of threat or rather the immediacy of it
- Improvement of SOPs, acclimatisation
- Weapon deficiencies addressed to some extent
- Reduction of trade imbalance, likely to accelerate. Less money going to China has a double impact
- Increase in international defence collaboration

For China, the costs are direct costs of deployment; indirect loss of trade surplus; cascading impact of actions like app ban, investment block, procruement block; import slowdown in India reduces reliability of their supply chains; Huawei loses the biggest market, destroying economies of scale and generally destroying its future; setback for AI research; propaganda loss due to international thoo-thoo; casualties among soldiers and degradation of weapons due to deployment in harsh terrain.
Gain might be temporary control of some areas, but until settled on a negotiating table, India will wait for 500 years if need be, to take it back (some of China's territorial claims are from the 16th century, no reason why we won't do it too).

Ultimately, I see military expenditure as that similar to health insurance. It might seem unproductive until you get ill. Now, I just hope that the current crisis will finally help us get a proper insurance.

There are also low-cost, high-impact actions in the cyber domain we need to look at. The wannacry attack on Maersk completely damaged the supply chains and also China had losses due to disrupted trade. Now if we managed to hack one of the ports and mark the containers to be shipped to Vladivostok, China will actually lose billions. To hire or buy the right people and equipment will cost less than a million $

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsingh » 27 Jul 2020 15:52

“The Chinese speak in metaphors. When you convert metaphoric language into direct language, you can miss something said or unsaid,”

Well said.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Mollick.R » 27 Jul 2020 16:24

In another setback to China, Russia suspends deliveries of S-400 surface-to-air missiles
ANI Last Updated: Jul 27, 2020, 08:32 AM IST

IMoscow [Russia]: Russia has announced suspension of S-400 surface-to-air missile systems to China and said the resumption of further deliveries is yet to be ascertained.

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/news/international/world-news/in-another-setback-to-china-russia-suspends-deliveries-of-s-400-surface-to-air-missiles/articleshow/77189681.cms?utm_source=ETTopNews&utm_medium=HPTN&utm_campaign=AL1&utm_content=23

What this hints ??? :?: :!: :-?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 27 Jul 2020 16:56

Mollick.R wrote:In another setback to China, Russia suspends deliveries of S-400 surface-to-air missiles . . .
What this hints ??? :?: :!: :-?

Everyone is quoting that single Chinese news source. Need more authentication.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 27 Jul 2020 17:29

Sohu is not very reliable, it's just a search service modeled on yahoo, which also carries some news stories

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 27 Jul 2020 18:09

sum wrote:Arent we also loosing big-ly here since it is costing us $$$$ to keep equipped at such altitudes with our rickety infrastructure and poor connectivity, burning cash in a economy which is COVID-struck?

China has huge $$$ reserves and would just be a pinprick for them compared to the outflow for us ( which might be curtailing other spending too since we literally import everything needed there and are still in mode of "emergency buys" even 20 years after Kargil)

Are Chinese really the loosers in this scenario?


Yes and No. Leh, Ladakh is a touristy place. People in Leh have lost this summer due to the China virus, as there has been no tourist inflow.

They would definitely not mind, 30-50K Indian troops coming in. It would keep the Leh economy floating by feeding the daily needs of those troops there. Moreover there is already infra to cater to a "surge" in people. For example basic thing like water.

The biggest advantage on our side is that LAC is closer to settled populated places. On the Chinis side, the only people for hundreds of miles are PLA soldiers. Their real population center is in Xinjanj.

Chinis have more money. They will also be spending more. End of the day, the deployment cost is not going to hurt either side much. But Chinis will be loosing on the economic front a lot. Byte dance is planning to sell off tiktok given the bleak future.. It had great plans for IPO a month back!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Shanmukh » 27 Jul 2020 19:30

nam wrote:The biggest advantage on our side is that LAC is closer to settled populated places. On the Chinis side, the only people for hundreds of miles are PLA soldiers. Their real population center is in Xinjanj.


Their closest decent habited place is probably Ngari. It is also rather small, but it is an old market town, just like Ladakh, just not as developed, though. BTW, Ngari and Rutog were under the rule of Ladakh until the end of the 17th century, when it was conquered by the Tibetans. We have more claim to both Ngari and Rutog than the Chinese do!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 27 Jul 2020 19:49

nam wrote:How are the Chinis bringing in their tanks towards LAC? How are they able to reach 14000 ft? I can understand getting to Lhasa and even trucked on flat areas. How about going/coming back uphill?

Do they have such powerful trucks to carry 40ton uphill at 14000 ft? Can the tanks go uphill by themselves?

I can see Type15 with 35 ton and 1000hp might be able to do it. But tanks constantly travelling on roads will destroy the roads very soon. Not viable against a large foe like us.

Their tank numbers at LAC must be minimal. Or these kit have been dumped at specific locations.


They have brought tanks the same way that we have deployed an armored brigade at high altitude in Ladakh (DBO is at 15,000 feet).
It's not about going uphill. The G-219 from Hotan does not have steep gradients. That's why the total distance by road from Hotan to the LAC
(opposite DBO) is about 800 km, though the `straight line' distance is much less. The problem with high altitude is a higher probability of engine failure and reduced power (approx 40% at 14,000 ft) with reduced oxygen, need for anti-freeze and special grade of diesel and lubricant.
The problem we have with tank transporters, is a weight restriction (more due to quality of road than altitude), so we have been restricted to deploying T-72's and not the slightly heavier T-90's, though I believe that is changing now.

A Chinese combined arms army has far more armored vehicles than an Indian corps with mountain divisions. That is a disadvantage along the LAC, where the terrain offers few opportunities for the movement of a mechanised force. Conversely, they lack infantry which is a disadvantage when
attacking in the mountains, particularly against seasoned mountain infantry like ours.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pushkar.bhat » 27 Jul 2020 22:08

China knows one thing - They can never lower their guard against the Indian Army. This force can lure you into a trap and hammer the hell out of you if the Government so mandates.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby k prasad » 27 Jul 2020 23:46

hammer the hell out of you if the government so mandates


Exactly... **IF** the government so mandates.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Jul 2020 01:03

TWITTER

@FrontalAssault1:

Indian Army has done mobilisation in DBO as chances of a PLA mischief from North is speculated. Things are moving pretty fast & China seems to be on a bigger mission of not only Ladakh but Siachen too.

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 93793?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Y I Patel » 28 Jul 2020 01:16

wig wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/india-moves-squadron-of-missile-firing-t-90-tanks-to-last-post-near-karakoram-pass/story-h4LtB6PZXtiYpMadupySlK.html

India moves squadron of missile-firing T-90 tanks to last outpost near Karakoram Pass



The remarkable thing about this article is the detail it gives on the geographic linkages between Shaksgam Valley, Shaksgam Pass, Karakoram Pass, and DBO.

@manjgu, @kprasad - note

While the Indian military has also decided to black-top the advance landing ground at DBO, the main reason for deploying tanks in the area is to prevent any sudden Chinese move from the north, they added.

Already China has built some 36 kilometres of road in the Shaksgam Valley (5163 square kilometres were illegally ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963), and Indian military planners fear that PLA will link the G-219 (Lhasa-Kashgar) highway to Karakoram pass through the Shaksgam pass.

Even though this will require tunnelling under the permafrost of Shaksgam glacier, the Chinese have the technical ability to complete the job.


Here's the link between Siachen and DBO that keeps popping up in articles, but I find it hard to reconcile some of the material in the article with maps I had posted previously, but some of what the article says does support what I had posted earlier about this entire region.

This plan dovetailed into a larger plan of linking the G219 highway to G314 (Kashgar-Islamabad Karakoram highway) via Karakoram-Shaksgam pass axis in order to save not only time but distance.

A fruition of this plan would have made Indian army positions untenable not only at DBO but also at Siachen as the outpost is linked to Sansoma (crucial base on Nubra river before Siachen) via Saser la-Murgo axis.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby manjgu » 28 Jul 2020 10:25

YIP ... the point my frnd was making that china may make the road ( and yes its a potential threat just as PA sitting on opp side of saltoro is a threat) but the last mile to Siachen is a nightmare for a offensive force of any reasonable size to move men and material. we must remain ever vigilant ..build up our own infra and improve our mil capability.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby g.sarkar » 28 Jul 2020 10:36

https://www.rediff.com/news/report/chin ... 4I7BKOf1E0
China has 200,000 troops at LAC!
By Ajai ShuklaJuly 27, 2020

The intrusions into India were likely carried out by the PLA's better trained and equipped 'mobile operational units'.
Ajai Shukla reports.
With China's People's Liberation Army intruders still occupying Indian territory and large PLA reinforcements ready on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control, Indian military planners are calculating: How many more soldiers can the PLA quickly field if fighting were to break out?
US-based PLA expert Dennis Blasko said he estimates that around 235,000 PLA troops, including border defence personnel and the PLA's cutting edge 'mobile operational units', are located in the PLA's Western Theatre Command, which oversees the entire India-China border as well as China's restive autonomous areas -- Tibet and Xinjiang.
In March, the Belfer Center at Harvard Kennedy School also estimated 'a total of 200,000 to 230,000 Chinese ground forces under the Western Theatre Command, including the Tibet and Xinjiang Military Districts'.
These numbers include the PLA's lightly equipped 'Border Defence Units', which are permanently stationed along the border and are geared for border management and patrolling, not for full-scale combat operations.
According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, about 16 Border Defence Regiments, with about 40,000 personnel, monitor Tibet and Xinjiang's 5,000 kilometre border with India, Nepal and Bhutan.
......
Gautam
200,000? It was 20,000 just a week ago. A typo? DDM at work? I presume a lot of bats are being slaughtered to feed them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 28 Jul 2020 10:38

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... ssion=true

In China’s troop movements in Ladakh’s depth areas, a hint about its real plan

India’s last outpost at Daulet Beg Oldi DBO lies at a height of 16,000 feet just south of Karakoram pass and on banks of Chip-Chap river, north of the Galwan-Shyok confluence.

Updated: Jul 27, 2020 14:20 IST

By Shishir Gupta

With the Chinese People’s Liberation Army (PLA) deploying close to 50,000 troops in Aksai Chin, the Indian Army for the first time has deployed a squadron (12) T-90 missile firing tanks, armoured personnel carriers (APCs) and a full troop brigade (4,000 men) at Daulat Beg Oldi (DBO) to prevent any Chinese aggression from the Shaksgam-Karakoram pass axis, according to top military commanders familiar with the matter.

India’s last outpost at Daulet Beg Oldi DBO lies at a height of 16,000 feet just south of Karakoram pass and on banks of Chip-Chap river, north of the Galwan-Shyok confluence.

As some bridges on the Darbuk-Shyok-DBO road cannot handle the weight of a 46 ton T-90 tank, the Indian Army commanders sent the T-90 tanks after the June 15 Galwan flare-up by fording the rivers and rivulets using specialized equipment. The armoured personnel carriers (APCs) or infantry combat vehicles , M 777 155mm howitzers, and 130 mm guns had already been sent to DBO after Chinese aggression at patrolling points 14, 15, 16 , 17 and the Pangong Tso finger features.

While India and China have decided to first totally disengage and then de-escalate from the area, the Indian Army is not only matching troop strength but also keenly watching the PLA deployment of tanks, air defence radars and surface to air missiles in Aksai Chin.

The disengagement is work-in-progress with each side verifying the movements of the other, the commanders, who asked not to be identified said.

While the Indian military has also decided to black-top the advance landing ground at DBO, the main reason for deploying tanks in the area is to prevent any sudden Chinese move from the north, they added.

Already China has built some 36 kilometres of road in the Shaksgam Valley (5163 square kilometres were illegally ceded by Pakistan to China in 1963), and Indian military planners fear that PLA will link the G-219 (Lhasa-Kashgar) highway to Karakoram pass through the Shaksgam pass.

Even though this will require tunnelling under the permafrost of Shaksgam glacier, the Chinese have the technical ability to complete the job.

The fear is that once the link is completed, the PLA will put pressure on DBO from the north as it needs a buffer to prevent the Indian Army from targeting the road.

According to the military commanders, the main purpose of PLA aggression this summer was to clear all the friction points with the Indian Army along the 1147 km long line of actual control (LAC) in East Ladakh and impose the 1960 map claim. However, this attempt was forcefully repelled by the men of 16 Bihar who took on the 3 Mechanized Infantry of Xinjiang Military district on June 15 at Galwan.

This plan dovetailed into a larger plan of linking the G219 highway to G314 (Kashgar-Islamabad Karakoram highway) via Karakoram-Shaksgam pass axis in order to save not only time but distance.

A fruition of this plan would have made Indian army positions untenable not only at DBO but also at Siachen as the outpost is linked to Sansoma (crucial base on Nubra river before Siachen) via Saser la-Murgo axis.

In many ways, Pervez Musharraf‘s plan to interdict Srinagar-Kargil highway and starve Indian positions at Siachen during the 1999 Kargil war between India and Pakistan has a parallel in China’s Xi Jinping’s attempt to interdict the DSDBO road to cut off DBO 21 years later.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2020 11:03

Limitations of the Quad.While many desi strategists, experts feel that the PRC will be " unnerved" by the USN exercising with the IN done recently, former IN Chief ,Adm.Arun Prakash expresses both caution and scepticism of that line of thinking. He gives an amber light on the effectiveness of the Quad,saying in a piece in the IE,that the US was thus far unable to force the PRC to adhere to the UN Law of the Sea rules while it happily annexed islands in the ICS/ SCS and fortifying them into military bases. The PFC's hegemonic masterplan was unaffected.USN naval manouevres on now are merely paper deterrence in nature.Another sr. defence official said jokingly that the US was ready to fight the PRC to the last Indian!

Rather than placing our optimism of countering the PRC in the maritime IOR domain, based upon our greater naval experience of
the region,many of our experts and strategists fondly put more faith intti[imaginine that the Quad will leap to our rescue when the balloon goes up when it has yet to be integrated into a unified fighting force. The max.we must expect is real time intel which will enable our indigenous led challenge to the PL succeed .

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 28 Jul 2020 11:14

Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@FrontalAssault1:

Indian Army has done mobilisation in DBO as chances of a PLA mischief from North is speculated. Things are moving pretty fast & China seems to be on a bigger mission of not only Ladakh but Siachen too.

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 93793?s=19


The real question is what is India's bigger mission?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 28 Jul 2020 11:35

Rather we dont disclose that and let China bear its teeth, preception should be China is looking for a war, they are the aggressors, have no moral roght to be there.

We must keep our aims under wraps until war is there.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sajaym » 28 Jul 2020 12:36

What prevents us from mining a few of the approaches near the LAC? Is there any agreement between India and China prohibiting deployment of mines?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 28 Jul 2020 14:23

darshhan wrote:
Manish_Sharma wrote:TWITTER

@FrontalAssault1:


https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 93793?s=19


The real question is what is India's bigger mission?

I dont think the GoI is planning on going on the offensive. We never will. Its more reactionary from our side. But a point to ponder is the PLA will not go back after such massive mobilization without extracting its pound of flesh. No point. Its a huge waste of money and resources and they are highly business minded. What are they going to extract. The think tanks in India have always failed at analysing China or have been infiltrated by pacifists or communists in the guise of CHina experts. What will India do? Does it even have a plan?

Still all discussions being blacked out on the occupation by PLA between Finger 5 to 8... No discussion on Depsang... Is GoI waiting for 5th August 2020 to be done and dusted. After all its a big event in its political history for BJP

By the way, I used to follow frontal assault and Bababanaras on Twitter, but found out that they only used to post news from websites much quicker than we can source it out in our feeds. Nothing great about these handles

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 28 Jul 2020 15:40

The future course of possible action and the main talking points in the coming month of Aug would be:-

One week on Ram Mandir

Next week on Independence Day Speech of Modi, where he will not mention China

Third week on Covid Vaccine

4th Week back on Rajesh Pilot

5th Week Coming Bihar Assembly elections. August is past, we are in mid of September

Have you forgotten about China yet or not?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby george » 28 Jul 2020 15:45

^^^ Balakot happened after everyone forgot Pulwama.
Can we please just trust Modiji to do the right thing. Even inaction, just trust him; sooner rather than later he will dispense the right medicine to China.


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