India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
Yagnasri
BRF Oldie
Posts: 9820
Joined: 29 May 2007 18:03

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Yagnasri » 28 Jul 2020 15:54

Whether we go on offensive or not will be a decision by the political leadership. We can not say what the present leadership does or does not do. As long as they have kept the capabilities to carry out such action it will always be a possibility. We can not fully rule it out.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rishirishi » 28 Jul 2020 16:14

Seems India is increasing the pressure on China.

Eye on China, quality curbs on 370 items

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst




This tactic is used by China to limit foreign suppliers from entering the market. The ISI standards will be strictly applied to make it "unfeasable" to import from china. Want to import shoes for example, then provide detailed data of stress test, materials used, chemicals, dyes etc etc. :rotfl:
Last edited by Rishirishi on 28 Jul 2020 16:20, edited 1 time in total.

Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 450
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 28 Jul 2020 16:16

Rishirishi wrote:Seems India is increasing the pressure on China.

Eye on China, quality curbs on 370 items

Read more at:
http://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/arti ... aign=cppst

I see some nationalistic rabid newshour channels like Republic and Timesnow openly advertising Vivo and Oppo phones. Arent these Chinese? Pseudos

RaviB
BRFite
Posts: 151
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 14:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 28 Jul 2020 16:21

sajaym wrote:What prevents us from mining a few of the approaches near the LAC? Is there any agreement between India and China prohibiting deployment of mines?


Yes the BDCA prohibits the use of explosives within 2 km of the LAC, firearms are the only thing allowed as per the agreement. But as per custom, they were carried slung pointing down. Mines would be forbidden as per the agreement.

Rishirishi
BRFite
Posts: 1276
Joined: 12 Mar 2005 02:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rishirishi » 28 Jul 2020 16:23

I see some nationalistic rabid newshour channels like Republic and Timesnow openly advertising Vivo and Oppo phones. Arent these Chinese? Pseudos


They are NOT nationalistic, just money making scams. They will say anything that creates audience.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2020 16:33

More turning of thd screw on the PRC economically,but much more can be done especially diplomatically if PRC intransigence remains. This is a golden opportunity for India to throw off the shackles that binds us in thrall to the PRC economically ,and undo the damage of the supine diplomatic baggage of the UPA.

Asia and the world are looking towards India to deliver a grievous blow to the PRC militarily,but first we must make XI make a mistake on the chessboard. Apart from more severe eco sanctions,etc., we must play ruthlessly the two T cards,Tibet and Taiwan. It is past time to dump diplomaticslly the shitworms of the PRC and their fascist pig of a fuhrer,XI ,into the nearest sewer manhole.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 28 Jul 2020 16:34

More turning of the screw on the PRC economically,but much more can be done especially diplomatically if PRC intransigence remains. This is a golden opportunity for India to throw off the shackles that binds us in thrall to the PRC economically ,and undo the damage of the supine diplomatic baggage legacy of the UPA.

Asia and the world are looking towards India to deliver a grievous blow to the PRC militarily,but first we must make XI make a mistake on the chessboard. Apart from more severe eco sanctions,etc., we must play ruthlessly the two T cards,Tibet and Taiwan. It is past time to dump diplomatically the shitworms of the PRC and their fascist pig of a fuhrer,XI ,into the nearest sewer manhole.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1782
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 28 Jul 2020 17:39

Let's hope and pray that our industry and businesses - big and small - give us quality replacements to Chinese products and don't repeat the decades of "Ambassador and Fiat" on consumers after Chinese competition is removed or blunted. It's nice to block Chinese shoe imports, but our own manufacturers must fill the void with catchy designs and high quality workmanship, even if it ends up being 30% more expensive.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3695
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 28 Jul 2020 17:54

Iyersan wrote:I see some nationalistic rabid newshour channels like Republic and Timesnow openly advertising Vivo and Oppo phones. Arent these Chinese? Pseudos


It is fine to make money out of the Chinis. But we should not let them make money out of us. They can set up companies in India, provide employment to us, but we need to make it difficult for them to take money out of India. If they don't like this method, they don't have to come.

Force them to re-invest the profit back in to India. And ofcourse, curtail the imports from China.

darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2238
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 28 Jul 2020 18:17

One just essentially has to follow same rules as chinese. They don't make it easy for anyone to earn money from them unless they want to control their gov'ts. In India, chinese have the best. They earn money from India and control businesses to control Indian govt. It took a public chinese slap and a dose of chinese virus for this Indian gov't to start looking other way.

rsangram
BRFite
Posts: 139
Joined: 20 Sep 2016 17:54

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 28 Jul 2020 20:54

Troops Disengaged on most of India-China border

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/beijing-claims-troops-disengaged-on-most-of-india-china-border/articleshow/77219211.cms

Looks like things are settling down now.

Finally !

Senseless of the Chinese to do all this in the first place. Ultimately, they had to go back.

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9322
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 28 Jul 2020 21:04

https://twitter.com/singhshwetabh71/sta ... 32096?s=20 ---> Indian Army has deployed a squadron (12) of T-90s (mentioning CLGM capable?), APCs and a full troop brigade at DBO to prevent any Chinese aggression from the Shaksgam-Karakoram pass axis, reports HT's Shishir Gupta.

Image

RaviB
BRFite
Posts: 151
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 14:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 28 Jul 2020 21:07

rsangram wrote:Troops Disengaged on most of India-China border

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/beijing-claims-troops-disengaged-on-most-of-india-china-border/articleshow/77219211.cms

Looks like things are settling down now.

Finally !

Senseless of the Chinese to do all this in the first place. Ultimately, they had to go back.

I'm pretty sure nothing has changed. Disengagement in most places probably means disengagement in Galwan and things stay the same elsewhere. This is just standard Chinese propaganda. 2 days before the ambush on 15th June, the Chinese spokesman said, "the situation is stable and controllable". The PLA is in charge, not the MFA

Varoon Shekhar
BRFite
Posts: 1989
Joined: 03 Jan 2010 23:26

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Varoon Shekhar » 28 Jul 2020 21:11

Even if there is disengagement or even withdrawal, India must not let down its guard, or cease its infrastructure efforts in Ladakh et al.

And the economic disengagement with China must continue apace. China has been allowed to obtain far too much influence in the Indian economy.

darshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2238
Joined: 28 Jan 2008 04:16

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshan » 28 Jul 2020 21:43

It would be of utter stupidity and treasonous for any Indian to trust chinese.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24007
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 28 Jul 2020 22:19

rsangram wrote:Finally !

Senseless of the Chinese to do all this in the first place. Ultimately, they had to go back.

Where?

Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 450
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 28 Jul 2020 22:25

rsangram wrote:Troops Disengaged on most of India-China border

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/beijing-claims-troops-disengaged-on-most-of-india-china-border/articleshow/77219211.cms

Looks like things are settling down now.

Finally !

Senseless of the Chinese to do all this in the first place. Ultimately, they had to go back.


Did u read the full statement? Chinese want us to meet “ HALFWAY”

That means they are saying it’s all over finger 5 onwards, gogra, hot springs all done. They have gained. I get a feeling they have also intruded in DEPSANG

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 224307.cms

LAC row: India denies China's claim of complete disengagement at most locations


BEIJING: The frontline troops of China and India have "completed" disengagement at most locations of their border, a senior Chinese official said on Tuesday, adding the situation on the ground is easing.

However, Indian government sources in New Delhi said this statement is not correct.

Earlier, Chinese foreign ministry spokesman Wang Wenbin had made the claim at a briefing in Beijing when he was asked whether the border troops from India and China have completed the disengagement from Galwan, Gogra and Hot Spring areas in eastern Ladakh. The reference to Pangong Tso, a major friction point, was conspicuously absent in the question asked by a reporter from China's official media.

During the briefing, the spokesman noted that China and India have recently conducted "intensive communication through military and diplomatic channels.”
“Now the frontline border troops have completed disengagement in most locations and the situation on the ground is easing," Wang said.

At the briefing, Wang said, “We have held four rounds of commander level talks and three meetings of Working Mechanism for Consultation and Coordination (WMCC)."

“Now we are preparing for the fifth round of commander level talks to study the settlement of the remaining issue. We hope India will work with China to implement our consensus and uphold peace and stability along our border areas,” he added.

Asked when the next commanders level meeting will be held, Wang said the information will be released in due course.

The ministry of external affairs on Friday said that India and China agreed on "early and complete" disengagement of troops in eastern Ladakh and may hold more military talks soon to work out further steps to ensure "expeditiously" complete “disengagement and de-escalation" and restoration of peace and tranquility in the border areas.

India had also asked China to “sincerely implement” the understanding on troop withdrawals reached by senior military commanders of the two sides.

National Security Advisor Ajit Doval and Chinese foreign minister Wang Yi held a nearly two-hour-long telephonic conversation on July 5 to bring down tension between the armies of the two countries in eastern Ladakh.

Both China and India commenced the disengagement process from July 6 following talks between Doval and Wang who are Special Representatives for the boundary question.

The tension in eastern Ladakh escalated manifold after the violent clashes in the Galwan Valley on June 15 in which 20 Indian Army personnel were killed. The Chinese side also suffered casualties but it is yet to give out the details. As per US intelligence reports, the Chinese army suffered 35 casualties.

Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 450
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 28 Jul 2020 22:31

Indian Navy's clear message to Beijing following escalation ..
https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 225097.cms

Leonard
BRFite
Posts: 186
Joined: 15 Nov 2000 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Leonard » 28 Jul 2020 22:58

How the army taught the Chinese a lesson

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/how-the-army-taught-the-chinese-a-lesson/20200728.htm

Some GREAT details here .. Lately there's been WAY too much dhoti shivering by noobs on this thread and other thread's.. My father's brother spent his Entire MIL career in NEFA before he retired from 1960-> 1990's ..

>>
The Chinese probably thought its brutal assault was a knock-out, but they had not counted on the ingenuity, loyalty and courage of battle-trained Indian officers and jawans.
David Devadas pieces together what happened on the night of June 15 in the Galwan Valley.

The battle at Galwan on June 15 illustrated how a well-trained army can most effectively deploy resources and tactics on the run, even as masses of deadly opponents attack it as fast as in a video game.

That night's events ought to be a case study at the finest war colleges. For, the most legendary tacticians in history, from Henry V at Agincourt to Mehmet II at Constantinople, would have been proud to own the tactics employed.

Many of the Chinese troops were from the PLA's Special Forces, the equivalent of the US Marines. And yet the Indian soldiers were able to chase them deep into the Galwan Valley. Indeed half-a-dozen soldiers went so deep that they only found their way back late the next evening.

Early reverses

The country has mainly been told about the first brief phase of that battle, though the entire fighting lasted through most of that night.

That first phase went very badly for the Indians, since the Chinese ambushed them.

During the ambush, the commanding officer of the 16 Bihar regiment, Colonel Santosh Babu, and the 20 soldiers, including two other officers, who had gone with him were brutally assaulted with medieval weapons.

I am told that Colonel Babu was hit on the back of his head and apparently fell into the stream. It was a fatal injury.

I am also told that more than half of the 20 Indian casualties that night took place when that first group was ambushed by a larger number of Chinese armed with bunches of sticks wrapped with barbed wire.

Amazing comeback

The Chinese probably thought that brutal assault was a knock-out, but they had not counted on the ingenuity, loyalty and courage of battle-trained Indian officers and jawans.

Through the next three phases of that night's battle, scores of Indian reinforcements suffered much fewer additional casualties than they apparently imposed on their opponents.

An officer almost as senior as Colonel Babu had shadowed the lead team with a small team of soldiers.

When he saw the ambush from a distance, he promptly called in reinforcements. I am told he then led a bayonet charge which took the fight to another level.

I am told the lieutenant colonel (now a full colonel), was one of the Indian Army's most proficient Ghatak warriors. He certainly earned fresh spurs that night.

Since Ghatak warriors are trained for hand-to-hand combat, he and his men were able to inflict severe damage on their opponents, even after the latter called up substantial reinforcements.

Severely outnumbered

Even after Indian reinforcements arrived to take the battle into its third phase, they were severely outnumbered by the Chinese reinforcements -- ten to one, according to one officer's estimate.

Yet, they went into the fight ferociously, proving equal to the larger numbers of Chinese troops.

I am told that most of the reinforcements were from the 3 Medium Artillery Regiment and the 3 Punjab Regiment.

But as word spread that a 'CO saab' had been killed by the Chinese, enraged soldiers of all sorts rushed pell-mell to the battleground.

I am told that two nursing assistants and several signals operators were among those who joined the battle.

The reinforcements fought doughtily. One Gurjit Singh is said to have fought with great prowess, taking down a large number of opponents before he was felled.

PLA officer captured

One of the Chinese looked important. So, later that night, a spirited bunch of soldiers decided to grab him and carry him back. That chance move took a turn more like a Hollywood thriller the next morning.

When the Chinese commander called up to ask worriedly about him, it turned out that he was the officer in charge of the PLA special forces in Galwan.


I am told PLA special forces had just arrived to take over the Galwan area. Colonel Babu had gone trustingly because he had a good equation with the CO earlier in charge there. Instead, he found the special forces waiting in ambush.

Far more truculent than those who were earlier deployed, they were the ones who used nail-studded maces.

Of course, capturing a special forces officer is a huge feather in any military cap. As one officer exulted: "The catch was definitely prized. Just think (it is like) we get the CO of the (US)Navy Seals."

Two very different Indian officers have told me that that Chinese officer's capture decidedly turned the tide of the battle at Galwan. The Chinese morale nosedived.


Objective achieved

Later that night, a group of Gorkha soldiers joined battle along with a team of engineers who, I am told, wrought havoc of a different sort in the fourth phase of the battle at Galwan, completing the military objective of that night's operation.

After the major setback with which the night began, it is truly commendable that the military objective was achieved amid the fog of war which, in every sense of that term, enveloped that night.

If the government had not chosen to only own the deaths of 20 Indian soldiers, distancing itself from the outstanding displays of prowess on that battlefield, it could have been a tremendous morale-booster at a time when the nation is confused about the government's strategy in response to a strident Chinese challenge.

Indeed, to prevent details from emerging, mobile communications were shut down at the front for a week after the battle, and soldiers's phones were confiscated. The videos some of them had taken of the mayhem on the battlefield by the early morning were not allowed out.

However, some information has spread among other officers, and I have pieced together what happened that night through chats with a couple of mid-ranking officers who have had authentic information from the front.

I hope the officers who led the fight back are duly recognised on Republic Day if not on this Independence Day. The country must acknowledge how valiantly the army fought against great odds that night.

The government, which initially focused on preventing escalation, must re-think how to treat the battle of Galwan in light of the clear evidence that has emerged in the last six weeks that China is in any case intent on escalating hostilities right across the two countries' boundaries.

STAND-OFF IN LADAKH
David Devadas, the author of The Story of Kashmir and The Generation of Rage in Kashmir, is a political and geostrategic analyst.

<<

Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 775
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 28 Jul 2020 23:01

Iyersan wrote:
Rishirishi wrote:Seems India is increasing the pressure on China.


I see some nationalistic rabid newshour channels like Republic and Timesnow openly advertising Vivo and Oppo phones. Arent these Chinese? Pseudos


Either you don't know what rabid means, or you don't know what context to use it in

g.sarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2485
Joined: 09 Jul 2005 12:22
Location: MERCED, California

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby g.sarkar » 28 Jul 2020 23:11

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... RtRWK.html
How the cold will alter the India-China power equation next month in Ladakh
According to accounts given by the survivors of the clash, a large number of Chinese PLA troops came in an armoured personnel carrier and soon started dropping down due to lack of oxygen at 16000 feet when the fisticuffs began between the two armies. If lack of oxygen did not get them, then the frozen Galwan river did the job.
Shishir Gupta, Jul 28, 2020

On June 15 evening when the Indian Army troops clashed with People’s Liberation Army (PLA) at Galwan, the temperature of the river was close to zero (and below it in some places) and a large number of troops on both sides fatally succumbed to hypoxia (low oxygen levels because of the altitude) and hypothermia (excessive cold), people familiar with the matter said.
According to Indian military commanders, this information is relevant because starting September, the weather will start taking a hand in Eastern Ladakh, where Indian and Chinese troops are still locked in a stand-off as an uneasy truce between the two countries plays out.
According to accounts given by the survivors of the clash, a large number of Chinese PLA troops came in an armoured personnel carrier and soon started dropping down due to lack of oxygen at 16000 feet when the fisticuffs began between the two armies. If lack of oxygen did not get them, then the frozen Galwan river did the job.
While the Chinese PLA has not revealed the number of troops from III mechanized infantry of Xinjiang Military District that lost their lives in the clash, these are more, and not less than that suffered by the Indian side which loses 20 soldiers, the military commanders added, asking not to be named. Throughout the intervening night of June 15 and 16, two Chinese PLA helicopters carted the dead and injured to nearby hospitals or to hyperbaric chambers in depth areas.
Although both sides decided to disengage after the Special Representative level dialogue on July 5, the exercise is long drawn out with winter ready to move into the theatre next month and firmly set in September in all the friction points. “ It is not the temperature that will kill but the wind which increases the chill factor. Add to this the rarefied atmosphere at Galwan, Gogra-Hot Springs and the weather takes a turn for the worse,” said a senior military commander.
The military commanders said adverse weather conditions, including up to seven feet of snow, could put the Chinese at a disadvantage because its army in Akasi Chin is largely made of conscripts, who were drafted for a three month annual summer exercise in Tibet and Xinjiang in return for the state taking care of their future education. The PLA conscripts are used to moving on armoured carriers in contrast to their Indian counterparts who not only patrol on foot but live in the worst of weather conditions whether in Siachen or in Sikkim or in Thag La ridge in Tawang, the commanders added.
.....
Gautam

Iyersan
BRFite
Posts: 450
Joined: 19 Sep 2016 16:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Iyersan » 28 Jul 2020 23:26

Raveen wrote:
Iyersan wrote:I see some nationalistic rabid newshour channels like Republic and Timesnow openly advertising Vivo and Oppo phones. Arent these Chinese? Pseudos


Either you don't know what rabid means, or you don't know what context to use it in

Not interested in engaging on a personal basis. Couldn’t care less as to ur comment. Rabid nationalist channels is my way of using terms

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4708
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 28 Jul 2020 23:41

g.sarkar wrote:The military commanders said adverse weather conditions, including up to seven feet of snow, could put the Chinese at a disadvantage because its army in Akasi Chin is largely made of conscripts, who were drafted for a three month annual summer exercise in Tibet and Xinjiang in return for the state taking care of their future education. The PLA conscripts are used to moving on armoured carriers in contrast to their Indian counterparts who not only patrol on foot but live in the worst of weather conditions whether in Siachen or in Sikkim or in Thag La ridge in Tawang, the commanders added.
.....
Gautam


Lol. This is exactly why we should take up the kinetic option instead of the border infrastructure building game.

These are not your grandfather's Mao human wave conscripts. These are the soft little emperor conscripts who probably won't charge up that hill when asked to.

BTW, their carriers are always accompanied by purpose-built cruise ships with PLAN pennants.

That's ship on the bottom left with track and green area.
Image

So no surprise the PLA in Tibet are driven around and have hyperbaric chambers. Over the long haul, there is little doubt they can build more hyperbaric chambers, recreation centers and whorehouses to keep their "soldiers" in better comfort.

Jay
BRFite
Posts: 250
Joined: 24 Feb 2005 18:24
Location: Gods Country
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Jay » 29 Jul 2020 00:20

Philip wrote:This is a golden opportunity for India to throw off the shackles that binds us in thrall to the PRC economically ,and undo the damage of the supine diplomatic baggage legacy of the UPA.


Philip, in deference to your service to Mother India, let me apologize in advance if I hurt your feelings here.

Your posts lambasting IFS, and UPA for not doing enough and cowing to the general philosophy and practices of not asserting and representing the nations interests is a little disingenuous, mostly because it's coming from you. What IFS, and UPA did to our foreign policy by outsourcing Indian interests, people with your similar attitudes/outlook(might not be personally you) did the same to defense procurement processes. These people did this by constantly being the mouthpieces for anti-India, anti-self reliance lobbies in various capacities. You yourself have certainly acted in that capacity by peddling Russian wares, at every opportunity you got and your marathon long post history is evidence of that. I have no idea how you reconcile with your words against your intentions/wishes that India be strong without realizing the inconsistency here.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4170
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 29 Jul 2020 01:51

g.sarkar wrote:https://www.rediff.com/news/report/china-has-200000-troops-at-lac/20200727.htm?fbclid=IwAR1dMsVRFRx0wHTdmpamySu-6oA9lEPXD5u_kqc5IabxZiKnO4I7BKOf1E0
China has 200,000 troops at LAC!
By Ajai ShuklaJuly 27, 2020

The intrusions into India were likely carried out by the PLA's better trained and equipped 'mobile operational units'.
Ajai Shukla reports.
With China's People's Liberation Army intruders still occupying Indian territory and large PLA reinforcements ready on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control, Indian military planners are calculating: How many more soldiers can the PLA quickly field if fighting were to break out?
US-based PLA expert Dennis Blasko said he estimates that around 235,000 PLA troops, including border defence personnel and the PLA's cutting edge 'mobile operational units', are located in the PLA's Western Theatre Command, which oversees the entire India-China border as well as China's restive autonomous areas -- Tibet and Xinjiang.
In March, the Belfer Center at Harvard Kennedy School also estimated 'a total of 200,000 to 230,000 Chinese ground forces under the Western Theatre Command, including the Tibet and Xinjiang Military Districts'.
These numbers include the PLA's lightly equipped 'Border Defence Units', which are permanently stationed along the border and are geared for border management and patrolling, not for full-scale combat operations.
According to the International Institute for Strategic Studies, about 16 Border Defence Regiments, with about 40,000 personnel, monitor Tibet and Xinjiang's 5,000 kilometre border with India, Nepal and Bhutan.
......
Gautam
200,000? It was 20,000 just a week ago. A typo? DDM at work? I presume a lot of bats are being slaughtered to feed them.


The headline is alarmist sensationalist BS. If there are 200k they are in entire Chinese Western Sector, not LAC, as the body makes clear. By that logic, India has a zillion men on LAC also.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14184
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 29 Jul 2020 01:52

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BCZ9Rmwabdo
Tawang And Arunachal Pradesh Well Secured, Point Out Ex-Officers
The prolonged crisis along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh since May has prompted many questions about India's preparedness to face the Chinese all across the Himalayan Frontier. The experience of 1962 when India suffered a heavy military defeat in a month-long border war has made many people apprehensive once again. But as StratNews Global has said in the past, 2020 is not 1962, as even experienced military officers who have led India's efforts to secure the border areas point out. In this new series starting with this episode, Editor-in-Chief Nitin A. Gokhale speaks to Lt Gen Devraj Anbu (Retd), a former Commander of the Tezpur-based 4 Corps and Maj Gen Rajiv Narayanan (Retd), who headed the 2 Mountain Division--at one time the formation that had the largest area of responsibility along the Chinese border. Both the generals assert the new reality about India's improved defences and changed mindset that has secured Arunachal Pradesh--where the main battle was fought in 1962--from any designs the Chinese may have.



abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2923
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 29 Jul 2020 02:51

KLNMurthy wrote:The headline is alarmist sensationalist BS. If there are 200k they are in entire Chinese Western Sector, not LAC, as the body makes clear. By that logic, India has a zillion men on LAC also.

Yup its a click bait article. Although I do think we should analyse or gather information on how many troops the Chinese can bring in if the balloon does go up. There is talk about two additional divisions in Ladakh, also one cant expect Ap and Sikkim to be quiet either. 200K though is a number smaller than the 30 divisions number that got thrown around until a few years ago.

shyamd
BRF Oldie
Posts: 6846
Joined: 08 Aug 2006 18:43

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby shyamd » 29 Jul 2020 04:28

There have been more conversations at multiple levels with US re: Military and Intel cooperation in the last 24 hours. Some acquisitions are secret and have not been declared to public.

press articles have confirmed India has deployed nuclear assets. GOI response to any escalation will be on multiple fronts, domains and choke points. Some of this intent has been shown clearly to PLA/PRC over the last few weeks.

Pentagon says no sign of either side deescalating For now.

Raveen
BRFite
Posts: 775
Joined: 18 Jun 2008 00:51
Location: 1/2 way between the gutter and the stars
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 29 Jul 2020 08:05

Jay wrote:
Philip wrote:This is a golden opportunity for India to throw off the shackles that binds us in thrall to the PRC economically ,and undo the damage of the supine diplomatic baggage legacy of the UPA.


Philip... peddling Russian wares, at every opportunity you got and your marathon long post history is evidence of that. I have no idea how you reconcile with your words against your intentions/wishes that India be strong without realizing the inconsistency here.


I got a lot of heat last time I used the same words to point out the same obvious thing - the mods seem to have a inexplicable deference wherein people get formal board warnings versus his informal gentle reminders. Oh well, glad everyone smells the кофе.

Admin note: And you will get a lot more heat if you do continued ad-hominem attacks against anyone, including Philip (who, despite your spin, has his long list of own official warnings and temp bans). If you have issues with moderation, do not litter these threads with one-liners against moderation, use the feedback threads. Last post from you on this topic on this thread, consider this an informal warning
Last edited by hnair on 29 Jul 2020 09:15, edited 2 times in total.
Reason: Informal warning issued. User already has a formal warning

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 1298
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 29 Jul 2020 11:20

KLNMurthy wrote:
g.sarkar wrote:https://www.rediff.com/news/report/china-has-200000-troops-at-lac/20200727.htm?fbclid=IwAR1dMsVRFRx0wHTdmpamySu-6oA9lEPXD5u_kqc5IabxZiKnO4I7BKOf1E0
China has 200,000 troops at LAC!
By Ajai ShuklaJuly 27, 2020


Gautam
200,000? It was 20,000 just a week ago. A typo? DDM at work? I presume a lot of bats are being slaughtered to feed them.


The headline is alarmist sensationalist BS. If there are 200k they are in entire Chinese Western Sector, not LAC, as the body makes clear. By that logic, India has a zillion men on LAC also.


If Ajai Shukla is getting alarmed and posts doom & gloom messages, you know the Chinese are getting rattled.
Last edited by Deans on 29 Jul 2020 15:54, edited 1 time in total.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4687
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 29 Jul 2020 11:39

Interesting discussion on Twitter

@hukum2082
During the height of the Sumdorong Chu Standoff in April 1987 , the PLA had moved 8 Divisions into Tibet from the 53rd Corps in Chengdu and 13th Corps in Lanzhou

The current deployments in Ladakh are a small fraction of that number.Thoughts ?
#Ladakh
https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/12 ... 51969?s=19
_____________________

Replies:

@cvkrishnan

Then - China an infantry heavy army.
Today - A highly mechanised, theaterized Force with lot of armour, Air Force with Force multipliers like tankers and AWACS in numbers.

Which is why I think a simple land based ORBAT that many analysts are making for LAC makes little sense today. We are still thinking in a pure all land warfare manpower terms.

@hukum2082:
It would be difficult for either side to hold territory if MBRL/Artillery is deployed in numbers.

An Armoured+Mech-Inf thrust is extremely vulnerable to Anti-Tank units

Any side that moves first would have the surprise element but retaining gains might be difficult

@cvkrishnan :
The Chinese are not here for land but to essentially discredit India as a security provider and future leading power. They want to “put India in its place in front of the world”
Last edited by Manish_Sharma on 29 Jul 2020 12:27, edited 1 time in total.

Gyan
BRFite
Posts: 1541
Joined: 26 Aug 2016 19:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 29 Jul 2020 12:13

During Sumdorong Chu time, China was facing 3 very hot borders. Vietnam, Soviet Union and India. Inspite thereof they did Incursions into India. There is also lot of debate what India actually did at that time. But I don't think China came out a winner.

From All accounts, Galwan was calculated escalation by China & retaliation by India. We must Excercise limited similar action/s at other points when time comes

Obsession with starting 3rd World War directly is counter productive, though we can "prepare" for one.

Main problem today is that China controls lot of players inside India who are not playing for Indian team.

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4170
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 29 Jul 2020 12:27

Leonard wrote:How the army taught the Chinese a lesson

https://www.rediff.com/news/special/how-the-army-taught-the-chinese-a-lesson/20200728.htm

...

The reinforcements fought doughtily. One Gurjit Singh is said to have fought with great prowess, taking down a large number of opponents before he was felled.


Would that be Gurtej Singh? I haven't come across the name Gurjit Singh previously.

it is a nice account, though it adds very little to the accounts I have read myself. (Even Telugu media (Eenadu paper) carried many of the same details of the fightback 2 days after the June 15 events. Maybe because Col. Santosh Babu was from Suryapet, Telangana.)

But the writer and editors should exercise extra care in getting the names right.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14184
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 29 Jul 2020 12:49

Iyersan wrote:
rsangram wrote:Troops Disengaged on most of India-China border

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/beijing-claims-troops-disengaged-on-most-of-india-china-border/articleshow/77219211.cms

Looks like things are settling down now.

Finally !

Senseless of the Chinese to do all this in the first place. Ultimately, they had to go back.


Did u read the full statement? Chinese want us to meet “ HALFWAY”

That means they are saying it’s all over finger 5 onwards, gogra, hot springs all done. They have gained. I get a feeling they have also intruded in DEPSANG

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 224307.cms

LAC row: India denies China's claim of complete disengagement at most locations


BEIJING: The frontline troops of China and India have "completed" disengagement at most locations of their border, a senior Chinese official said on Tuesday, adding the situation on the ground is easing.

However, Indian government sources in New Delhi said this statement is not correct.
<snip>

Yes ...I did notice them wanting a midway/halfway solution when it came out. The usual Chinese tactics of 4 steps forward and 2 steps back.

Dumal
BRFite
Posts: 276
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dumal » 29 Jul 2020 13:01

KLNMurthy wrote:
Leonard wrote:How the army taught the Chinese a lesson


But the writer and editors should exercise extra care in getting the names right.


In addition, I found it appalling that the writer implies that the soldiers have a right to take videos and freely share those with the world and that the evil government trampled on their rights and managed to confiscate phones and media! What a travesty this picture paints? Since when did soldiers focus on video-recording the battlefield and even if there were some videos taken for the records, why wouldn't all of those be strictly in the hands of the authorities to hold or use as needed. It seems writers like these are confusing the culture of people gawking and recording roadside accidents with that of the military and a battlefield.

Also since when did awards for gallantry require recommendations from journalists and on what basis do these people have hopes and expectations that the government shouldn't belie?

KLNMurthy
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4170
Joined: 17 Aug 2005 13:06

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KLNMurthy » 29 Jul 2020 13:04

pankajs wrote:
...

LAC row: India denies China's claim of complete disengagement at most locations


BEIJING: The frontline troops of China and India have "completed" disengagement at most locations of their border, a senior Chinese official said on Tuesday, adding the situation on the ground is easing.

However, Indian government sources in New Delhi said this statement is not correct.
<snip>

Yes ...I did notice them wanting a midway/halfway solution when it came out. The usual Chinese tactics of 4 steps forward and 2 steps back.

Let’s not fail to notice how Indian media (IE and ToI from what I saw) carried the Chinese version of the status of deescalation in a way (with headlines, placement etc.) that suggests to the reader that it is the official and correct account. You have to read closely to realize that it is the Chinese side of the story.

If I were to write a story about pro-Chinese reporting tricks in media, maybe I’d title it, “ Han, han, dal mein kuch pila hai.”

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24007
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby SSridhar » 29 Jul 2020 14:00

KLNMurthy wrote:


The headline is alarmist sensationalist BS.

This article was published by Business Standard on July 20; Rediff has rediffused it a week later, for what purpose we don't know.

Dileep
BRF Oldie
Posts: 5838
Joined: 04 Apr 2005 08:17
Location: Dera Mahab Ali धरा महाबलिस्याः درا مهاب الي

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dileep » 29 Jul 2020 14:03

Rishirishi wrote:Seems India is increasing the pressure on China.
This tactic is used by China to limit foreign suppliers from entering the market. The ISI standards will be strictly applied to make it "unfeasable" to import from china. Want to import shoes for example, then provide detailed data of stress test, materials used, chemicals, dyes etc etc. :rotfl:


The problem is, the domestic suppliers will also required to comply to the same standard. Chinese will produce their (NABL Certified) test reports and get the stamp. We will get fail reports from our labs, who are 'descendants of hari chandra' when it comes to these things.

Happened to us a lot, that it ain't even funny!!

Deans
BRFite
Posts: 1298
Joined: 26 Aug 2004 19:13
Location: Moscow

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Deans » 29 Jul 2020 16:06

Manish_Sharma wrote:Interesting discussion on Twitter

@hukum2082
During the height of the Sumdorong Chu Standoff in April 1987 , the PLA had moved 8 Divisions into Tibet from the 53rd Corps in Chengdu and 13th Corps in Lanzhou

The current deployments in Ladakh are a small fraction of that number.Thoughts ?
#Ladakh
https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/12 ... 51969?s=19
_____________________

Replies:

@cvkrishnan

Then - China an infantry heavy army.
Today - A highly mechanised, theaterized Force with lot of armour, Air Force with Force multipliers like tankers and AWACS in numbers.

Which is why I think a simple land based ORBAT that many analysts are making for LAC makes little sense today. We are still thinking in a pure all land warfare manpower terms.


The problem with the Chinese ORBAT is that all their group armies are similar. You have rightly said the PLA today as gone in for mechanisation and tech instead of manpower. The only problem is that in the mountains (or 90% of the LAC) you need infantry. A large mechanised force can only be used in the Depsang plain and Demchok. Everywhere else you need overwhelming superiority in infantry and artillery to dislodge a defending force (as we saw in Kargil).
That may be one reason that the PLA has currently deployed 2 of their 4 divisions from the Xinjiang military district instead of the combined arms brigades from 76th and 77th armies of the Western Theatre. The PLA's 4th motorised and 6th Mechanised divisions from Xinjiang have more infantry but their role is mostly being an occupation force, not fighting real soldiers.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3695
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 29 Jul 2020 16:18

Even regular artillery won't be able to easily dislodge them. We threw the kitchen sink at the Pak during Kargil, yet it wasn't easy.

All it is required is one artillery OP sitting on a peak, nobody has thought about and bring down artillery at the advancing forces. And given the heights, you can see for miles.

I still remember Col Rai's talk, where Pak forces were trying to capture his position and an artillery OP could see this happening. He was bringing in 100's of rounds over the attacking forces, blowing them up. Even after 3 attempts they could not capture it, even though Col Rai's unit was completely injured and ran out of ammo!


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ArjunPandit, ashthor, ernest, gauravsharma, isubodh, Rsatchi and 59 guests