India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 01:03

Just my thoughts if it comes to to a fight I truly believe India would after a setback would start hitting the Chains . Then facing a very big loss of face they would use their A bomb to hit Mumbai and and our capital city .They do not care about non military targets . Now I ask you would a India target non military targets or be the the good old boy and go for military targets in response. To be a super power to you need to use the A bomb . If China was to use the A bomb the world will only protest for a short space of time . Then go back to business as usual in a couple of years . China would have arrived on the world stage as only the second super power to use A bomb.

pahadig
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 4
Joined: 22 Sep 2016 03:17

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pahadig » 30 Jul 2020 01:10

USSR became a Super Power without using the A Bomb.
Also, in today's world.. only an A would even think of using the A bomb, first!!! :D

kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 01:20

pahadig wrote:USSR became a Super Power without using the A Bomb.
Also, in today's world.. only an A would even think of using the A bomb, first!!! :D

But if they are in a spot and everything of their dream is disappearing down the plug hole they would could resort to this . Iam asking would Indian side hit non military targets if Chins do it first. I am not sure they would . China wins.

kumarn
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 16:19

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kumarn » 30 Jul 2020 01:41

Yes, yes. We have them bum for Diwali.

kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 01:44

kumarn wrote:Yes, yes. We have them bum for Diwali.


Iam asking will the Indian gov have the political will . Because the west will be putting pressure on the Indians .
Last edited by kirpalbasra on 30 Jul 2020 01:46, edited 1 time in total.

m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 200
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 30 Jul 2020 01:45

No one is going to come out and say we're going to nuke pop centers whether it's retaliation or first use.

Even a midget nuke strike will lead to massive retaliation, India warns Pak

Articulating Indian nuclear policy in this regard for the first time, Shyam Saran, convener of the National Security Advisory Board, said, "India will not be the first to use nuclear weapons, but if it is attacked with such weapons, it would engage in nuclear retaliation which will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage on its adversary. The label on a nuclear weapon used for attacking India, strategic or tactical, is irrelevant from the Indian perspective." This is significant, because Saran was placing on record India's official nuclear posture with the full concurrence of the highest levels of nuclear policymakers in New Delhi.


Unacceptable damage means pop centers are fair game.

kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 01:51

m_saini wrote:No one is going to come out and say we're going to nuke pop centers whether it's retaliation or first use.

Even a midget nuke strike will lead to massive retaliation, India warns Pak

Articulating Indian nuclear policy in this regard for the first time, Shyam Saran, convener of the National Security Advisory Board, said, "India will not be the first to use nuclear weapons, but if it is attacked with such weapons, it would engage in nuclear retaliation which will be massive and designed to inflict unacceptable damage on its adversary. The label on a nuclear weapon used for attacking India, strategic or tactical, is irrelevant from the Indian perspective." This is significant, because Saran was placing on record India's official nuclear posture with the full concurrence of the highest levels of nuclear policymakers in New Delhi.


Unacceptable damage means pop centers are fair game.


You miss my point has the Gov of India the political will to hit NON military's targets and we are in opposite to India/pak they have more then us.

m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 200
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 30 Jul 2020 01:56

kirpalbasra wrote:You miss my point has the Gov of India the political will to hit NON military's targets and we are in opposite to India/pak they have more then us.


Yes, GoI has the political will.

kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 01:59

m_saini wrote:
kirpalbasra wrote:You miss my point has the Gov of India the political will to hit NON military's targets and we are in opposite to India/pak they have more then us.


Yes, GoI has the political will.



I hope so but what makes you so sure .

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9322
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 02:00

If you drop a nuclear bomb on India, what are you expecting the GOI to do short of nuclear retaliation?

Please advise.

kumarn
BRFite
Posts: 467
Joined: 30 Aug 2007 16:19

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kumarn » 30 Jul 2020 02:01

Question to ask is this: Are the Chinis willing to take a bum on sanghai? Do they want to be the second aspiring super power to take few atum bum up theirs.

m_saini
BRFite
Posts: 200
Joined: 23 May 2020 20:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby m_saini » 30 Jul 2020 02:05

kirpalbasra wrote: I hope so but what makes you so sure .


Because it's policy and would be nonsensical if they didn't? So in your hypothetical scenario where the chinis have nuked Delhi and Mumbai, you somehow think GoI *wouldn't* have the political will to return the favor?

For further proof please read Mutual assured destruction

kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 02:09

kumarn wrote:Question to ask is this: Are the Chinis willing to take a bum on sanghai? Do they want to be the second aspiring super power to take few atum bum up theirs.


I would ask can we get there first and second they have a lot more developed city's the us . So yes I think they would have planed that.

AdityaM
BRFite
Posts: 1966
Joined: 30 Sep 2002 11:31
Location: New Delhi

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AdityaM » 30 Jul 2020 02:11

If Delhi is nuked, nothing would be left of GoI.

suryag
Forum Moderator
Posts: 3691
Joined: 11 Jan 2009 00:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby suryag » 30 Jul 2020 02:14

Folks OT alert - please restrict the discussion to the topic of this thread

Rakesh
Forum Moderator
Posts: 9322
Joined: 15 Jan 2004 12:31
Location: Planet Earth
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Rakesh » 30 Jul 2020 02:15

suryag wrote:Folks OT alert - please restrict the discussion to the topic of this thread

Sorry Sir. Wrong Thread.

kirpalbasra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 25
Joined: 23 Jun 2020 23:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby kirpalbasra » 30 Jul 2020 02:20

suryag wrote:Folks OT alert - please restrict the discussion to the topic of this thread


Sorry for taking topic of thread but I believe if war comes then it will be ,,so I will leave it here. Just hope GOV will do what is required and not bow down to pressure of the west that is surely to come.

chetak
BRF Oldie
Posts: 22833
Joined: 16 May 2008 12:00

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chetak » 30 Jul 2020 03:08

Maj Gen (Dr)GD Bakshi SM,VSM(retd)@GeneralBakshi·Jul 29

An officer of the PLA who defected tells US media Over a 100 chinese soldiers killed in Galwan clash on 15-16 June . No wonder the Chinese were shaken and trying to hide it

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14184
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 30 Jul 2020 03:32

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 3824020481
The Wolfpack @TheWolfpackIN

Report: Indian Army is preparing to position an additional 35,000 troops along the LAC as the possibility of an early resolution to Ladakh stand-off fades.

The nuke exchange question must be approached logically.

1. What is China's aim?
2. Will it be resolved by having a nuclear exchange with India?

China's aim is to be the top dog of the world and dislodge/replace America. A nukes exchange with India is the LAST thing they would want at the moment when they are so near their aim (from their pov). Why?

Simple! A nuke exchange with India will leave both India and China crippled for a generation at least and thus allowing America to retain its top spot for another generation. When 2 people fight and destroy each other, it benefits the bystander.

It is very difficult to imagine China committing such a huge mistake but if they do they can bid goodbye to the superpower status for a generation at least. I personally find it very difficult to believe that the Chinese will nuke their own ambitions for either "teaching India a lesson" or a few sq. kms at the LAC.

Mods: Folks should be allowed to detail scenarios if they can logically support their point either in this thread or some other thread. Please guide.

Roop
BRFite
Posts: 349
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Roop » 30 Jul 2020 08:46

kirpalbasra wrote:Then facing a very big loss of face they would use their A bomb to hit Mumbai and and our capital city.... To be a super power to you need to use the A bomb . If China was to use the A bomb the world will only protest for a short space of time . Then go back to business as usual in a couple of years . China would have arrived on the world stage as only the second super power to use A bomb.


Your posts are nothing but panic-mongering crap.

arshyam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3822
Joined: 11 Aug 2016 06:14

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby arshyam » 30 Jul 2020 09:11

kirpalbasra wrote:
m_saini wrote:
Yes, GoI has the political will.



I hope so but what makes you so sure .

I'll pose the same question back to you - what makes you so sure we won't retaliate? The way you sound so confident that GoI won't retaliate implies dhoti shivering of the highest intensity :lol:. Heck, what makes one sure of **any** govt's political will to retaliate during such a situation? After all, no country, bar one, has ever used nuke weapons on an adversary.

Something for you to ponder over. But not here, perhaps in the Deterrence thread.

Philip
BRF Oldie
Posts: 20797
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Philip » 30 Jul 2020 12:36

https://www.thehindu.com/opinion/op-ed/ ... 215412.ece
Meeting China’s intransigence with air power
Pl. read the full adticle.

Xcpts:
The forward posture adopted by the IAF is key to India’s capability to bargain at the diplomatic table
Why would a nation heading towards world power status gamble men, money and reputation for a few square kilometres of inhospitable terrain? Surely, it would have envisioned, and planned, for an end state and a definition of what would constitute victory for it — especially when the world is grappling with a pandemic and any strong-arm tactics would be frowned upon by all. For a few square kilometres only? No. As a popular dialogue of a Hindi film goes, “Picture abhi baaki hai (the film isn’t over)”.

Three options
Sections of the media are going overboard, as if the Rafale would be a panacea to the intransigence of the Chinese. Far from it, since there will be a time period required for its integration with other weapon systems that constitute a war-fighting package. That said, it is also true that the IAF would fast-track it as it sports capabilities that India’s adversaries would have to use extra diligence to counter. The forward posture adopted by the IAF (even sans Rafale), which does not necessarily mean forward deployment, is key to India’s capability to bargain at the diplomatic table. We have three options: First, prevent war, if possible. This may require give and take and will entail political costs. We have ourselves to blame for having reduced our deterrence quotient and having failed to discern the adversary’s intentions in time — intelligence failure, in plainspeak. Second, if pushed to the wall, fight hard to deny them their notion of victory for which they have gambled so much; rest assured, we will prevail. And last, if war is averted, use the time to build capability for it’s no longer a choice between guns and butter if we want to avoid these regular faits accomplis. The world, especially the neighbourhood, is watching how the elephant responds to the dragon in the coming months.

Postscript. Next time, to honour mutual protocols of not using weapons, the Chinese will not field nail-studded batons and baseball bats. Indian troops may be met with ‘non-lethal’ weapons like tasers, laser dazzlers and ultra-sonic guns. One hopes India’s planners are thinking ahead to avoid surprises and equipping our warriors suitably.

Manmohan Bahadur, a retired Air Vice Marshal, is Additional Director General, Centre for Air Power Studies. Views are personal

milindc
BRFite
Posts: 720
Joined: 11 Feb 2006 00:03

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby milindc » 30 Jul 2020 14:00

kirpalbasra wrote:
m_saini wrote:No one is going to come out and say we're going to nuke pop centers whether it's retaliation or first use.

Even a midget nuke strike will lead to massive retaliation, India warns Pak



Unacceptable damage means pop centers are fair game.


You miss my point has the Gov of India the political will to hit NON military's targets and we are in opposite to India/pak they have more then us.


The political will was shown on the risky Balakot strikes. We were ready for a full blown war with that attack. With Mumbai loss, there is no financial center. Beijing, Shanghai will be gone for sure.

Arbit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 25 Jun 2020 17:43

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Arbit » 30 Jul 2020 16:38

pahadig wrote:USSR became a Super Power without using the A Bomb.
Also, in today's world.. only an A would even think of using the A bomb, first!!! :D


Not quite. You have to weigh the costs against the benefits.

And I believe the benefits of attacking India with nukes outweigh the potential costs.

Just assume, the chinese leadership attacks Mumbai with nukes, what happens next?

We immediately recede by 20 years or so. Our financial hub is destroyed and all economic activities grind to a halt, not to mention a massive healthcare challenge emerges.
The political system in India will also suffer a huge setback. The government of the day is also gone. It basically means modi is politically finished, and dreams of taking back GB are dead on arrival.
Next couple of decades india focuses on rebuilding and nothing else. taking back Pok, being a world power etc, everything is on back burner.

I can go on and on.


Now look at the costs. Inernational condemnation, trade embargo, criticism. All the consequnces are soft in nature and will wither away in a few years or at most a decade, however the hard power china gains by submissing a giant asian neighbour will be immense and priceless.



The solution.

Inflicting or rather having the ability to inflict a matching cost and making a show sha of the same. Letting the world and china know that the retaliation will be swift and at the populations center will not be immune is the only way to deter this evil ccp regime of china.

Any weakness on this aspect will leave us vulnerable. I hope our triad is in place and deployed.

chola
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4708
Joined: 16 Dec 2002 12:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby chola » 30 Jul 2020 16:48

^^^ We need to be ready for a nuclear arms race with Cheen. They are paranoid about the US and will eventually want nukes in the thousands. If their nukes goes up then we'll have to keep reasonable pace.

US wants Cheen in their nuclear arms talks with Russia. The chinis haven't agreed yet. And even if they do agree to talks and work out a deal it'll be on par to what the US and Russia have.
https://www.nytimes.com/2020/07/29/opinion/russia-china-nuclear-weapons.html


jagga
BRFite
Posts: 659
Joined: 22 Mar 2010 02:07
Location: Himalaya Ki God Mein

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby jagga » 30 Jul 2020 18:06

Names of soldiers killed in Galwan clash to be inscribed on National War Memorial
The names of 20 Indian Army personnel, who were killed after valiantly fighting Chinese troops in Galwan Valley in eastern Ladakh on June 15, will be inscribed on the National War Memorial here, officials said on Thursday.

Manish_Sharma
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4687
Joined: 07 Sep 2009 16:17

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 30 Jul 2020 19:30

TWITTER

@Frontalassault1:

Indian Army has deployed 35000 additional troops who have served in areas like Siachen, Ladakh & Northeast. They are fully acclimatised to the conditions & have an edge over PLA troops who have been drawn from mainland China.

https://twitter.com/FrontalAssault1/sta ... 07425?s=19

RaviB
BRFite
Posts: 151
Joined: 09 Jun 2020 14:32

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 30 Jul 2020 20:14

Arbit wrote:
pahadig wrote:USSR became a Super Power without using the A Bomb.
Also, in today's world.. only an A would even think of using the A bomb, first!!! :D


Not quite. You have to weigh the costs against the benefits.

<snip>

I can go on and on.
<snip>

The solution.

Inflicting or rather having the ability to inflict a matching cost and making a show sha of the same.


Please read the deterrence thread. What you're suggesting is basic Indian nuclear doctrine. Nuclear weapons are not meant for warfighting but for ensuring state survival and there has been a lot of discussion over nuclear strategy if it comes to the worst. They are useful for deterrence and little else. Nork nukes haven't led them to taking over New York but have kept the regime safe. That's it. India has a nuclear triad designed for a second strike capabiltiy.

Nukes have nothing to do with the current conflict apart from ensuring deterrence. So let's not derail this thread.

Arbit
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 3
Joined: 25 Jun 2020 17:43

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Arbit » 30 Jul 2020 20:36

RaviB wrote:
Arbit wrote:
Not quite. You have to weigh the costs against the benefits.

<snip>

I can go on and on.
<snip>

The solution.

Inflicting or rather having the ability to inflict a matching cost and making a show sha of the same.


Please read the deterrence thread. What you're suggesting is basic Indian nuclear doctrine. Nuclear weapons are not meant for warfighting but for ensuring state survival and there has been a lot of discussion over nuclear strategy if it comes to the worst. They are useful for deterrence and little else. Nork nukes haven't led them to taking over New York but have kept the regime safe. That's it. India has a nuclear triad designed for a second strike capabiltiy.

Nukes have nothing to do with the current conflict apart from ensuring deterrence. So let's not derail this thread.


Voicing one's opinion is not derailing the thread. What i have stated is very much relevant to the matter at hand. you can not even dare to imagine that china can use nukes and yourself say "nuclear weapons are not meant for war fighting" yet you count it as deterrence. Ironical.

It becomes deterrence only when you are ready and willing to use the weapon.

AdityaVM
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 10
Joined: 03 Jul 2020 23:23

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AdityaVM » 30 Jul 2020 21:58

Arbit wrote:
RaviB wrote:
Please read the deterrence thread. What you're suggesting is basic Indian nuclear doctrine. Nuclear weapons are not meant for warfighting but for ensuring state survival and there has been a lot of discussion over nuclear strategy if it comes to the worst. They are useful for deterrence and little else. Nork nukes haven't led them to taking over New York but have kept the regime safe. That's it. India has a nuclear triad designed for a second strike capabiltiy.

Nukes have nothing to do with the current conflict apart from ensuring deterrence. So let's not derail this thread.


Voicing one's opinion is not derailing the thread. What i have stated is very much relevant to the matter at hand. you can not even dare to imagine that china can use nukes and yourself say "nuclear weapons are not meant for war fighting" yet you count it as deterrence. Ironical.

It becomes deterrence only when you are ready and willing to use the weapon.


Replied in the deterrence thread.

Suraj
Forum Moderator
Posts: 13486
Joined: 20 Jan 2002 12:31

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Suraj » 30 Jul 2020 22:16

Arbit wrote:Voicing one's opinion is not derailing the thread. What i have stated is very much relevant to the matter at hand.

Yes it IS derailing this thread. And that's the moderation notice to you. Please listen to what others said - if you want to discuss it, do it in the relevant thread.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14184
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 31 Jul 2020 03:36

https://twitter.com/drapr007/status/1288881557256642561
Dr. APR @drapr007

PLA started constructing war time safety infrastructures at most tense areas near Pangong Tso from Finger 5 to Finger 8 and additional deployment observed in last 2 days.

Report submitted to concerns.

(Sources)

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3695
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 31 Jul 2020 14:48

Based on the Chini Amb speech, looks like they have no plan to go back from Finger 4. Let's see if Chinis are going to continue talking.

Aditya_V
BRF Oldie
Posts: 12154
Joined: 05 Apr 2006 16:25

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 31 Jul 2020 14:58

True it is very easy for them the defend there, we must push them from Ane La pass or get back at them at some other place.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54535
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ramana » 31 Jul 2020 23:49

Arbit and kripalbasra, Its derailing this thread.

Every time the Pakis went Paki, nooklear flashpoint was raised to paralyze decision makers.
Secondly deterrence breaks down when the parties threaten nuke use.
So its bigger than danda waving.
Folks no omre deterrence here.

Surayg next time please be more forceful.
This thread believe it or not has many visitors.
So need to address all audiences.

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2923
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 31 Jul 2020 23:49

Posting it here for the record, looks like the Rafale mania has made people forget the massed PLA on our borders :wink:.

Clarifying LAC could create new disputes: Chinese envoy

Vivasvat
BRFite
Posts: 333
Joined: 11 May 2005 08:03

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Vivasvat » 01 Aug 2020 00:01

On twitter: PLA chopper down near Uttarakhand
Any truth to this?

banrjeer
BRFite
Posts: 329
Joined: 21 Dec 2008 14:39

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby banrjeer » 01 Aug 2020 01:02

=== OT Post deleted === - admin

abhik
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2923
Joined: 02 Feb 2009 17:42

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 01 Aug 2020 01:25

IS CHINA'S WESTERN THEATRE COMMAND CONFIDENT ENOUGH TO CHALLENGE INDIA?
Interesting article, it claimed that the PLA Western Theatre Command over recent years:
> Has benefited most from China’s limited ground forces modernisation.
> Has more autonomy than other theatre commands.
> Has ramped up military drills in harsh climate conditions.


Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: ernest, Kakarat, kumarn and 54 guests