India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sumair » 04 Aug 2020 20:58

Gyan wrote:We have to study how Sikhs & Marathas were able to defeat the same Muslim forces which won against bigger Hindu Kings for a millennium

Guerilla warfare techniques vs conventional techniques.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 04 Aug 2020 22:37

Not Really. Marathas & Sikhs understood that its Civilizational fight. Marathas would fight around 150 major wars in 75 years, to topple Mughals. Sikhs had Afghanistan as their Vassal State as they killed anything that moved.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 04 Aug 2020 22:38

Anyone would like to Comment about China Study Group competence Now? After Pakistan claims Gujarat? All this is just a misunderstanding with China & it will be resolved by talks backed by Mobilization?
Last edited by Gyan on 05 Aug 2020 00:15, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby samirdiw » 04 Aug 2020 23:15

williams wrote:
Trying to achieve the status quo by any means, includes NOT blocking Chinese patrols to their claim lines! Otherwise, it would be a change in the status quo by us.


Regimes like the Chins don't care about Moral ascendency. It is a plain land grab and power play. It is our MEA Babus types, which unfortunately includes some of the senior retired military folks in places like CSG who think that the world cares about moral ascendency. No one cares. Just do the reverse of what the Chins did, occupy whatever is strategically relevant, and then keep talking. Of course, keep the casualties to a minimum and reduce the risk of escalation. They are not going to agree on anything until you give them a reason to budge. It sounds like they don't have that reason despite whatever events occurred so far.

+1

Why do only Hindus indulge in this morality business which no other group of race or religion do? Even Krishna had to resort to "unfair" means to take down the Kauravas. Are we superior to him?

Lord Krishna “cheated” many times in Mahabharata – some notable ones are:

1. Using Shikhandi to kill Bhishma

2. Spreading a lie about Ashwathama’s death to kill Guru Drona

3. Having Bhima kill Duryodhana by breaking the rules

4. Having Arjuna kill Karna when his chariot was stuck, he was without weapons and had lost memories of his archery skills

5. Hiding the sun to trick everyone into believing the war day had ended to kill Jayadratha

6. Having Bhima seek help from Ghatotkacha so that Karna uses his divine Indra weapon on Ghatotkacha instead of Arjuna

7. Forcing the chariot into the ground to help Arjuna dodge Karna’s Takshaknaag arrow

8. Having Subhadra abduct Arjuna to prevent Dwarka from siding with Kauravas and also help Indraprastha gain independence

Why did Lord Krishna do so? Was this adharma?

The answer is NO. This was not Adharma. Lord Krishna wanted to establish Dharma – the true meaning of Dharma. Many people who were even “good at heart” were misled by their own definitions of Dharma – e.g. Bhishma, Guru Drona, Karna, Vidhur, etc. The Hastinapur praja were suffering because of this. The “bad” were committing crimes and the “good” didn’t realize the true meaning of Dharma. This had to be stopped otherwise other kingdoms would soon adopt the same practices. An example had to be set for the world. Dharma in its true sense had to be established.

Through the Mahabharata war, Lord Krishna established the true meaning of Dharma – Dharma is any act that leads to the betterment of the society / world at large. Any act that leads to injustice to the society / world is adharma.

Why are we not learning wisdom that has already been imparted since ages?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby YashG » 04 Aug 2020 23:28

Gyan wrote:We have to study how Sikhs & Marathas were able to defeat the same Muslim forces which won against bigger Hindu Kings for a millennium


Oh this is going to be interesting.

I will not comment on Sikhs _ I don not know enough to. But Marathas by the end of Mughal Empire in in India were able to expand all the way to the North. They did get stalled in their Rohillakhand Campaign though. The most major reason was that by this time there was no warfare tech/tactics asymmetry as existed when the Mughals were fresh from central Asia - instead it was by now the other way round ( More later). Two war techs advantages that existed with the middle/central asian Armies were - Horse Warfare & Gunpowder. Subcontinent was never suited to produce large number of horses (grasslands vs tropical forests) to produce enough horses. So notable war tactics were not developed around Horse warfare. Although we did develop tactics around elephants but those came out to be no match to horses. This along with the fact that Central Asia existed on east-west axis of knowledge ( Refer Guns, Germs & Steel as to why this axis was instrumental) along with constant warfare made sure that the riders from Central Asia had upper hand when they first came calling. This was the first wave (950 AD - 1400 AD). This was the mechanised regiment era!

The second wave was Babur and he came with superior gunpowder & canon tactics. This was artillery era. For next 200 odd years you could say, all subcontinent did was diffuse the artillery based warfare tactics across.

Once these advantages melted - there was nothing to differentiate a mughal and non-mughal army. But it took a lot more time to defeat them because they had grown too big and wealthy due to initial advantages.

Where the Marathas shone, was that the Maratha Artillery of time became very very superior. They learnt from the Europeans - french particularly ( not just artillery but other warfare knoweldge too - Marathas had a Navy). Their nearness to coasts meant their exchanges with Europeans were comprehensive for knowledge transfer. Maratha Artillery in the Battle of Assaye almost blasted the English Army to pieces - came close to winning but couldnt - thats a story for another day.

So warfare tech & tactics due to knowledge diffusion were major reasons all along for battlefield advantage.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 04 Aug 2020 23:36

Right, Shivaji had better Artillery than Deccan Sultanates. We continue to de-emphasise importance of ideology, philosophy, social consciousness & Will. So why did we get our ass kicked in 1962 with better Airforce?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 04 Aug 2020 23:43

From wiki, but I will stop here to prevent derailing the thread

The Portuguese established themselves on the western coast of India with the new weapon of warfare-the artillery, they established themselves on the western coast of India-starting in 1509 with construction of ports and forts at Calicut, Cochin, Pulicat (Podouke), Goa, Bombay, Cambay, Diu, and finally arriving in Gujarat by the 1530s. The Mughal emperor Babur established himself in the north in 1526. He too, took recourse to the new technology of artillery. With the help of Portuguese, Bahadur Shah of Gujarat, successfully tried and tested the efficacy of artillery warfare on Chittaurgarh in 1535. It resulted in the Second Saka and Jauhar. It is quite likely that the concept of Saabaat (साबात)-covered corridors leading up to the fort walls-was suggested by the Portuguese who must have surely accompanied the Sultan. They wanted to impress the Muslim ruler with a view to getting foot-hold on Gujarat coast. They were also the first "traders" of gunpowder and cannon in India. This aspect needs consideration especially in relation to the general perception that Babur introduced artillery warfare in India. In fact Portuguese beat the Mughal ruler by a quarter century!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 04 Aug 2020 23:59

Gyan wrote:Not Really. Marathas & Sikhs understood that its Civilizational fight. Marathas would fight around 150 major wars in 75 years, to topple Mughals. Sikhs had Afghanistan as their Vassal State as they killed anything that moved.

Too much to ask from our current strategic leadership i.e political-bureaucratic-diplomatic system coupled with senior military leaders. I doubt if they are capable of much. Which is a real tragedy I must say. 'Cause our junior officers and Jawans are probably the best in world when it comes to courage, ingenuity and sheer willpower. As a citizen of this country it is the saddest thing to see their war fighting potential go waste. Except coin ops as part of Rashtriya Rifles setup and LOC tit for tat exchanges, they will not be seeing much action. The real sad part is that in future this quality recruits might or might not be available. Not much can be expected from a perennially attention deficit, smart phone addicted, junk food munching and physically sedentary population. Not to mention that the above situation will be made even worse by social justice circus targeting military. Imagine the fighting capabilities of a military infested with feminists, gays, trannies etc. They will likely be fighting court cases instead of battlefield ops. Ideally we should be shedding blood by gallons today so that for the next 50 years our external threats could be made irrelevant and we can start sorting out internal enemies.

Call me blackpilled or anything, I have come to a realisation that democracy is about mediocrity above anything else.
Last edited by darshhan on 05 Aug 2020 00:11, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby darshhan » 05 Aug 2020 00:08

YashG wrote:
Gyan wrote:We have to study how Sikhs & Marathas were able to defeat the same Muslim forces which won against bigger Hindu Kings for a millennium


Oh this is going to be interesting.

I will not comment on Sikhs _ I don not know enough to. But Marathas by the end of Mughal Empire in in India were able to expand all the way to the North. They did get stalled in their Rohillakhand Campaign though. The most major reason was that by this time there was no warfare tech/tactics asymmetry as existed when the Mughals were fresh from central Asia - instead it was by now the other way round ( More later). Two war techs advantages that existed with the middle/central asian Armies were - Horse Warfare & Gunpowder. Subcontinent was never suited to produce large number of horses (grasslands vs tropical forests) to produce enough horses. So notable war tactics were not developed around Horse warfare. Although we did develop tactics around elephants but those came out to be no match to horses. This along with the fact that Central Asia existed on east-west axis of knowledge ( Refer Guns, Germs & Steel as to why this axis was instrumental) along with constant warfare made sure that the riders from Central Asia had upper hand when they first came calling. This was the first wave (950 AD - 1400 AD). This was the mechanised regiment era!

The second wave was Babur and he came with superior gunpowder & canon tactics. This was artillery era. For next 200 odd years you could say, all subcontinent did was diffuse the artillery based warfare tactics across.

Once these advantages melted - there was nothing to differentiate a mughal and non-mughal army. But it took a lot more time to defeat them because they had grown too big and wealthy due to initial advantages.

Where the Marathas shone, was that the Maratha Artillery of time became very very superior. They learnt from the Europeans - french particularly ( not just artillery but other warfare knoweldge too - Marathas had a Navy). Their nearness to coasts meant their exchanges with Europeans were comprehensive for knowledge transfer. Maratha Artillery in the Battle of Assaye almost blasted the English Army to pieces - came close to winning but couldnt - thats a story for another day.

So warfare tech & tactics due to knowledge diffusion were major reasons all along for battlefield advantage.


Yash, you are seeing from a technology perspective. While Gyan ji asked a much more profound question. By the way Marathas did not have field artillery till 1750's. I.e during BajiRao's whole tenure plus 10 years. He died in 1740.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 05 Aug 2020 00:25

I don't think anyone here (including me) is competent to advise Govt to start a war. But atleast see the Enemy as an Enemy. USA never fought directly against Soviets but won

Protestant England, a small nation surrounded by Enemies all round Became World Biggest Empire, look at Mongol Empire or Czarist Russia.

Citing Vasudeva Kuthumba, while Enemy is sitting on your Chest is idiotic. Frankly unlike his fans on twitter, I see our FM as really average. Not the right person for the job.

Seems to be Krishna Menon but neither the wit nor intelligence nor election winning ability

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby hnair » 05 Aug 2020 00:29

Admin note: Folks, this is the border security thread. Please take historic analysis to the right thread.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby YashG » 05 Aug 2020 01:11

Mods: Yes this forum is not about historical analysis. RIght way would be to put historical analysis in the right thread and post a crosslink at best.
I even tried searching for the right thread to post this - "The following words in your search query were ignored because they are too common words: history." But I couldn't locate. Can you let me know where can I put this blob of info below ? - As such it is my last on the earlier discussion.

Babur didnt introduce artillery - Gyanji ur correct. But what I meant - he introduced superior tactics and better arti tech.
Image
-Butalia, Romesh C. (1998). The Evolution of the Artillery in India: From the Battle of Plassey to the Revolt of 1857. Allied Publishing Limited.

Marathas did learn from and deploy artillery. His act was state of art on this. This perhaps set into motion the emergence of Maratha Artillery.
Image
Image

- The Anglo-Maratha Campaigns and the Contest for India: The Struggle for Control of the South Asian Military Economy
Randolf G S Cooper, Randolf G. S. Cooper
Cambridge University Press, 2003
Last edited by YashG on 05 Aug 2020 13:25, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby ParGha » 05 Aug 2020 01:19

Carry on the history discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3788

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby YashG » 05 Aug 2020 01:41

ParGha wrote:Carry on the history discussion here: viewtopic.php?f=3&t=3788

Thanks - Mods cn we move all related posts on this historical 'discussion' to this thread. Or whatever is the best thing to do.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rajpa » 05 Aug 2020 08:37

samirdiw wrote:.....
5. Kill the chicken to scare the monkey. Yes we can draw the lessons from our neighbor but we can apply it in the reverse. Beat the Money to kill/scare the Chicken.
...


Train the monkey to bring the chicken home :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby bharathp » 05 Aug 2020 10:05

x posting from the Terroristan thread:

https://www.oneindia.com/international/ ... 29732.html
Image

The note also says that the terms of use will be IIOJK and not IOJK or IOK. It also says that the term to be used is Indian Illegally Occupied Jammu and Kashmir and not Indian Occupied Jammu and Kashmir or Indian Occupied Kashmir.

It also says that the term to be used is illegal action and not illegal annexation. Demographic apartheid can be used by not demographic re-engineering. All TV and Radio channels should play Pakistan and AJK national anthems immediately after one minute silence on August 5. The TV channels must ensure that the presenters should wear black solidarity bands and channel logos must be turned black to condemn Indian atrocities in Kashmir, the note further mentions. The theme shall be One year of Indian Military Siege in IIOJK, the press note approved by the Prime Minister of Pakistan, Imran Khan also says


https://indianexpress.com/article/india ... a-6539375/

On the eve of the first anniversary of the withdrawal of Jammu and Kashmir’s special status under Article 370 and its bifurcation into Union territories, Pakistan on Tuesday released a new political map which depicts J&K as a disputed territory, and claims the regions of Sir Creek and the erstwhile state of Junagadh in Gujarat as part of its territory. Reacting sharply to the move, India called it an “exercise in political absurdity”.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Aug 2020 10:29

This map published by the Pakis makes the Indus water treaty invalid

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Aug 2020 10:36

One of the next logical steps is for India to announce that its formally renouncing its recognition of "One China Policy". This is, once again, long overdue with or without the latest incursion.

Once we abandon that policy, we can start recognizing Taiwan's independence, upgrade the status of their trade-mission to a full-fledged embassy, declare Tibet to be free, support Hong Kong's pro-democracy movement etc.

When China refuses to recognize India's territorial integrity, no reason to unilaterally recognize "One China"

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 05 Aug 2020 10:43

Samirdiw: great points! Agree with everything you say. What ails us is ivory-towerism & moral-idealism, which are proxies for cowardice/sloth. What we need is basic street-smartness.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nandakumar » 05 Aug 2020 10:46

Aditya_V wrote:This map published by the Pakis makes the Indus water treaty invalid

I doubt very much. The Indus Water Treaty is a treaty between two sovereign nations. It deals with obligations and rights of two nations as to what they can do and cannot do with regard to Indus river water. It doesn't say, "Whereas India is the lawful owner of all the lands demarcated from such and such latitude and longitude to such and such .....now this treaty witnesseth and do on. So the sovereignty of the watershed area is not in question.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Anujan » 05 Aug 2020 10:52

Great maps by Al-Bakistan!! Is this what they meant by "Kashmir banega Pakistan"? (one day we will publish maps of Kashmir as part of Pakistan).


I wish someone had asked them what the border between Pakistan and China is in their new map. Why has it been left out? Does it include Aksai Chin? Where is the border in depsang area?

Their official position is that JKL is a disputed area, and the parties with locus standi are India, Pakistan and Kashmiris. And that Kashmiris have right to self determination to be part of Pakistan, Be part of India or be independent based on plebicite. Are they retreating from that position and outright claiming entire territory? Did they just claim that they want to annex JKL after piously claiming for decades that their only intention was to make sure kashmiris got their rights?

Are they also rejecting UN mandate for plebicite, their centerpiece of their Kashmir policy?

I dont think this needs to be mentioned here, but idiot just decided one day that a befitting reply to India would be to publish a new map, and did not think through the consequences.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby sanjayc » 05 Aug 2020 10:58

Prem Kumar wrote:Samirdiw: great points! Agree with everything you say. What ails us is ivory-towerism & moral-idealism, which are proxies for cowardice/sloth. What we need is basic street-smartness.


This disease of ivory towerism and moral idealism was started by Gandhi and consolidated by Nehru. These were the two ambitious idiots of India who built their careers much beyond their caliber, all due to a secret understanding with the British who benefited immensely by controlling them

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 05 Aug 2020 11:00

YashG, you have good knowledge on history & we will discuss again, some day in future. Thx for your inputs.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 05 Aug 2020 11:13

It seems that China is making Paradigm changes in the way it engages with the world. CSG has been caught with its pants down as it failed to see the reality while living in Self Conceived world about Chinese behavior.

Very aggressive Chinese behavior on:-

1. Interfering in Pak based Terrorist designations in UN
2. Repeatedly raising JK in UN
3. Negative Role in NSG admission of India
4. Terrorist attacks in NE
5. Dhoklam
6. Interference in Nepal etc
7. India rejection of RCEP, BRI
8. Xi rise as Dictatorship
9. We were building sensitive DBO Road.


What made CSG think its routine? And how Army could sleep while China was carrying on aggressive military Excercises near the border? Even after such aggressive intrusions by China & belligerent statements, CSG seemed to continue with Wishful thinking, as exemplified by Dovish statements of Gen N & Our FM.

I think the only remaining thing China failed to do was, tattoo "China is Indian Enemy" on their foreheads.

How much warning is enough warning? When is it incompetence?

In 1962 Armed Clashes broke out in June but our Army kept on saying till 18th Sept that there is no possibility of War.

We still have not imposed comprehensive economic measures, forget preparing for war. Ostrich attitude is in full play even though Propaganda is trying to make us look in different direction.
Last edited by Gyan on 05 Aug 2020 16:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 Aug 2020 12:02

:rotfl:
Ajay Devgan announced making movie on Galwan and results in TEARING A NEW ONE to Global Cheeni:

@Globaltimesnews:

Chinese netizens appeal to #India to stop stirring up anti-China sentiment with false and exaggerated statements, after Indian actor-producer #AjayDevgn announced to make a movie about the border clash between #China and India in the #GalwanValley. https://t.co/kOzA3qBmng https://t.co/3joGJwzYjr


https://twitter.com/globaltimesnews/sta ... 13185?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby YashG » 05 Aug 2020 13:30

Gyan wrote:YashG, you have good knowledge on history & we will discuss again, some day in future. Thx for your inputs.


Sure Gyanji - Btw I just updated the post with missing image links of references. I'm a great fan of Indian miltech history.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 05 Aug 2020 15:11

TV 18: Green Top Near Pangong Emerges as Thorn in LAC Talks as China Digs in at Key Vantage Point
There is some good information in this article (apart from the cringe worthy statements from "sources"), couple that I found interesting:-
- They are insisting on keeping an post on the Finger 4 Ridgeline from where they can keep a watch on Dhan Singh Post - the "main logistics hub for Indian troop movements around Pangong Lake" (Is this the ITBP camp between F2 and F3?)
- We had a permanent post on F7 which we vacated during Kargil (So we left one border un guarded to defend another one :x)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 05 Aug 2020 15:24

I have never understood this Concept of leaving these/any posts unguarded. Due to Kargill War, let's assume we decreased deployment from 5,000 to 500 or even from 500 to 100, even then there was no question of Chinese Occupying any area/post till they over ran the remaining 100 soldiers. So thinning of deployment could only be a set back if there was an attack & finger 7 post was physically removed.

I think there is either a lot we don't know or there is systematic attempt to make surrender palatable while keep Chinese imports rolling & moolah flowing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 05 Aug 2020 16:01

Gyan wrote:It seems that China is making Paradigm changes in the way it engages with the world. CSG has been caught with its pants down as it failed to see the reality while living in Self Conceived world about Chinese behavior.

Very aggressive Chinese behavior on:-

1. Interfering in Pak based Terrorist designations in UN
2. Repeatedly raising JK in UN
3. Negative Role in NSG admission of India
4. Terrorist attacks in NE
5. Dhoklam
6. Interference in Nepal etc
7. India rejection of RCEP, BRI
8. Xi rise as Dictatorship


What made CSG think its routine? And Army could sleep while China was carrying on aggressive military Excercises near the border? Even after such aggressive intrusions by China & belligerentstatements, CSG seemed to continue with Wishful thinking, as exemplified by Dovish statements of Gen N & Our FM.

I think the only remaining thing China failed to do was tattoo, China is Indian Enemy on their foreheads

There was also the discovery of a 1:500 scale terrain model of Ladakh at Ningxia a decade ago. It was pretty clear that it wasn't for analysis of geomorphology of the region. Those images show how long they've been wargaming their Ladakh incursions.

It has come to light that the Chinese have built a 1:500 scale terrain model of Ladakh at Ningxia in the geographic centre of China. This terrain model was apparently revealed in satellite imagery over a decade ago and accurately identifies topographical features such as the lakes, rivers and mountain ranges of Aksai Chin and other parts of Ladakh. That China would go to such lengths to study the landscape of Ladakh, underscores the vital importance of this region to China.
https://openthemagazine.com/essay/beiji ... hs-rivers/
See also an analysis of stallite imagery by Col. Bhatt https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/h ... 2020-07-16


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Gyan » 05 Aug 2020 16:10

These incursions could have been stopped by 100 soldiers standing at each of 5-7 points in Riot Gear with Iron Rods in hand. The whole oversight in an Area with clear skies, no vegetation, no hiding place, known tussle points etc is very odd.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Manish_Sharma » 05 Aug 2020 16:26

TWITTER

@GeneralBakshi:

China by concentrating two mechanised divisions on our borders has virtually cut off the Leh shyok DBO road on which we spent crores of Rs. Matching them in deployment is not enough. we have to see that we neutralise threat to our road if necessary by decisive offensive action


https://twitter.com/GeneralBakshi/statu ... 51105?s=19

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RaviB » 05 Aug 2020 17:58

There is a Chinese guy who has done a detailed analysis of the India-China boundary. The Chinese claims are not authoritative, but based on official maps

I don't have time to translate it but I guess people will be able to get a basic idea using google translate or something. The most interesting thing is that he has done it section by section, used Chinese maps and satellite imagery and identified Indian and Chinese positions. It's not official but should give some idea of the claims and actual positions on the ground

If you just look at the images, the general principles he follows are Numbers for landmarks, capital letters for Chinese positions and small letters for Indian positions. Many place names are also given in English, so it should be possible to understand. Blue Line = LAC, Purple Line = Indian claim, Red line = Chinese claim.

I have tried to archive it before it gets taken down, but not sure if it worked out and I got blocked due to too many requests. You can paste the links on this page https://web.archive.org/ and click save page now so we have access to it in the future as well.

1. China-India boundary from Karakoram Pass to around Murgo https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/150238052
2. China-India boundary from Murgo to Hot springs https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/150483870
3. China-India boundary from Hot Springs to Pangong lake https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/150959735
4. China-India boundary Pangong Lake area https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/151682798
5. China-India boundary South bank of Pangong Tso to south of Demchok around Ukdungle https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/154208046
6. From Ukdungle south and west, Chumur and then on to Himachal boundary https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/158138052 [In this area even the author is super confused about Chinese claims]

abhik
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 05 Aug 2020 21:52

abhik wrote:TV 18: Green Top Near Pangong Emerges as Thorn in LAC Talks as China Digs in at Key Vantage Point
There is some good information in this article (apart from the cringe worthy statements from "sources"), couple that I found interesting:-
- They are insisting on keeping an post on the Finger 4 Ridgeline from where they can keep a watch on Dhan Singh Post - the "main logistics hub for Indian troop movements around Pangong Lake" (Is this the ITBP camp between F2 and F3?)
- We had a permanent post on F7 which we vacated during Kargil (So we left one border un guarded to defend another one :x)


A couple of possible locations for "Green top" from my G Earth surfing:
1. On F4 Ridgeline at altitude of ~4950m and appears "green" (no idea if that's because of actually from vegetation (description from article)). Provides a decent, but not complete view of the ITBP camp west of F3.
2. On Ridgeline of F3 at altitude ~5100m Provides complete view of the ITBP camp west of F3, plus the entire stretch road coming from F2 and exiting towards F3. Note on Google Earth web view does not show the latest images (15th-June) for this place (where you can see the PLA camp here), in desktop you can select the date and it will be visible (I'm guessing by default it does not show lower quality images).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 05 Aug 2020 22:26

Another article with lots of details: P Stobdan: Ladakh concern overrides LAC dispute
At eight points, the two sides have differing perceptions — Samar Lungpa, 176 sq km; Depsang Plains, 972 sq km; Hot Spring, 38 sq km; Changlung, 13 sq km; Kungkala-Phobrang, 5 sq km; Sarjap, 129 sq km; Spanguur, 24 sq km; and, Dhumtsele, 25 sq km.

China has raised additional points of dispute at Pangong Tso over an area of 83 square kilometre and at Chumur, where it claims 80 square kilometre .

India and China have several CBMs in place, including military hotlines to avoid face-offs along the LAC. The 2013 Border Defence Cooperation Agreement (BDCA) was to serve as a template to boost military interface and resolve incidents locally. China wanted LAC tensions not to affect bilateral ties, India wanted more ‘predictability’ for the ties to grow.

Clearly, these de-escalatory measures seem not to be working. This author had doubted whether the BDCA was not yet another deception and tactic of denial that followed the Depsang incursion.

The area from Demchok up to Kailash and Lipulekh (Nepal tri-junction) was snatched from Ladakh by the 5th Dalai Lama in the 1650s.
Interesting, since issuing new maps seems to be in vogue, maybe its time to claim this region (including Kailash Mansarovar).
China claims some 150 square kilometre in Demchok. The PLA has built massive infrastructure on its side and moved armoured troops into Charding Nalla since 2009. The PLA follows the nomadic Rebo routes for patrolling in contrast to the Indian authorities restricting Rebo movements that led to massive shrinking of pastureland and border defence.

A major incident erupted in Demchok in 2014 simultaneously with the Chumur stand-off when the local authorities built a small irrigation canal at Nilung Nalla under the NREGA scheme. The PLA then mobilised Tibetan villagers from Tashigong to pitch Rebos at Charding-Ninglung Nallah (CNN) Track Junction to protest the Indian action.

Tibetan nomads pitched tents on Hemis Monastery’s land in 2018-19. Intentions seemed to be to capture Demchok to integrate with the Kailash-Manasarovar complex. China’s assertion has grown after it built infrastructure in the Ngari area to develop Kailash-Manasarovar into a tourist complex.

In Chumur, China claims 80 square kilometer. A crisis at Tibli erupted in September 2014 — during Xi Jinping’s visit to India — when Chinese workers entered at 31-R point to build a road up to Tible inside the IB. China probably wants a straight border from PT-4925 to PT-5318 to bring the Tible Mane (stupa) area under its control. The Chinese wanted the Indian Army to remove a storage hut near the Zero Border. The stand-off was resolved after the tin structure of the 77 Brigade was removed. Remember, the PLA demanded removal of India’s fortified positions in Burtse (2013), Demchok and Chumur (2014) for its retreat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 06 Aug 2020 04:16

RaviB wrote:There is a Chinese guy who has done a detailed analysis of the India-China boundary. The Chinese claims are not authoritative, but based on official maps

I don't have time to translate it but I guess people will be able to get a basic idea using google translate or something. The most interesting thing is that he has done it section by section, used Chinese maps and satellite imagery and identified Indian and Chinese positions. It's not official but should give some idea of the claims and actual positions on the ground

If you just look at the images, the general principles he follows are Numbers for landmarks, capital letters for Chinese positions and small letters for Indian positions. Many place names are also given in English, so it should be possible to understand. Blue Line = LAC, Purple Line = Indian claim, Red line = Chinese claim.

I have tried to archive it before it gets taken down, but not sure if it worked out and I got blocked due to too many requests. You can paste the links on this page https://web.archive.org/ and click save page now so we have access to it in the future as well.

1. China-India boundary from Karakoram Pass to around Murgo https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/150238052
2. China-India boundary from Murgo to Hot springs https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/150483870
3. China-India boundary from Hot Springs to Pangong lake https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/150959735
4. China-India boundary Pangong Lake area https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/151682798
5. China-India boundary South bank of Pangong Tso to south of Demchok around Ukdungle https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/154208046
6. From Ukdungle south and west, Chumur and then on to Himachal boundary https://zhuanlan.zhihu.com/p/158138052 [In this area even the author is super confused about Chinese claims]


Thanks for the links. I was finally able to identify the last few Chinese roads in Ladakh sector and also marked all the Chinese posts...
The most useful part is the 3rd Link [Hot Springs Area]... Looks like Chinese have been controlling many areas at this location for many years, which we consider as our side of LAC...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pushkar.bhat » 06 Aug 2020 11:29

Gyan wrote:Anyone would like to Comment about China Study Group competence Now? After Pakistan claims Gujarat? All this is just a misunderstanding with China & it will be resolved by talks backed by Mobilization?


With due respect - Is Pakistan's claim even worth discussing? The weed smokers have been claiming so many things for the last 70 plus years its become a joke. And trust me I am always respectful of enemies but their political elite is a bunch of jokers today.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 06 Aug 2020 13:46

pushkar.bhat wrote:
Gyan wrote:Anyone would like to Comment about China Study Group competence Now? After Pakistan claims Gujarat? All this is just a misunderstanding with China & it will be resolved by talks backed by Mobilization?


With due respect - Is Pakistan's claim even worth discussing? The weed smokers have been claiming so many things for the last 70 plus years its become a joke. And trust me I am always respectful of enemies but their political elite is a bunch of jokers today.
Since when has China study group been advising on Bakistan?

When analysis turns into a farce the China study group becomes the source of all ills of our foreign policy! On a more serious note, the CSG is just to provide inputs/reccos to the PMO/PM. What is implemented as a policy is ultimately the call of the PM. This can't be any other way with such a powerful PM at the helm.

Btw, per some analysis on twitter, this latest Baki map is also in line with their last map except that the entire Sir creek has been incorporated into the latest map. So while it is a changed map, the change is NOT on J&K or Jaunagarh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby LakshmanPST » 06 Aug 2020 18:58

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 383206.cms

The Chinese side transgressed in the areas of Kugrang Nala (near Patrolling Point-15, north of Hot Springs), Gogra (PP-17A) and north bank of Pangong Tso on May 17-18


In the above, Gogra and Pangong Tso are well known... But Kugrang Nala is not showing up on Google Maps...
However, Kugrang Nala has been marked in one of the old maps shared in this thread few pages back...

Based on that map I have located the Nala on Google Earth... I'm sharing the screenshot of the same below...

Image
Green lines are Indian Roads
Blue/Cyan lines are Chinese Roads visible on Google Earth
Orange lines are Chinese Roads not visible on Google Earth and are approximately plotted based on various newspaper articles.
Red Line is Google Earth LAC
Yellow Lines are Indian claims of LAC plotted based on the Chinese links posted few post back by RaviB.
PP Points are based on a Sketch shared by Ajai Shukla :roll:

Kugrang Nala is the Nala that is starting in the West and flowing to PP16 and further to PP17/Gogra, where it meets Chang Chenmo RIver. There is an Indian road/track from PP17 upto PP16. Remaining part of the Nala has no Road/Track as per Google Earth.

At PP16, another Nala (Changlung Nala) flowing from Chinese side of LAC joins the Kugrang Nala...
The straight distance of PP16 is 3.5km from LAC. However, the Changlung Nala flows almost parallel to the LAC for a distance of almost 18 km inside Indian side of LAC...
This Nala has a Chinese road running along it upto PP16... There is also a Chinese post almost near PP16...
Basically, Chinese already have an existing road and post for 18km on our side of Google Earth LAC way before 2015.

Looks like this is another case of 'different perceptions' of LAC.
----
The more I'm plotting the roads, the more I realize how messed up the LAC situation is... There is no way this mess is going to be sorted out peacefully...


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby pankajs » 06 Aug 2020 19:08

The moment I came to know of the "intrusions" I wrote that our surveillance has been subpar BOTH for the necessary hardware/Manpower AND our mental model (thinking/grasping capacity).

There was simply NO other way of reading it. The Indian posture AFTER Galwan bloodbath further exemplified the deficit in our mental model.


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