India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 16 Jun 2020 20:40

abhik wrote:
Ambar wrote:Need to get lot better at communication. In this day and age both the Army and MoD not having a sophisticated, dedicated media unit and selected press corps plays straight into the enemy's narrative. Twice today a press conference was called and cancelled without giving reasons, i am sure MoD or IA will hold one tomorrow but by that time we would have already given the enemy 24 hrs+ to put out their version of the story. Even when we do call a press conference we must ensure only selected press is there so its not yet another briefing where undisciplined and rambunctious media personal run up to the desk hopping up and down as they did when IAF called the media to show the remains of paki AMRAAM.

IIRC similar thing happened after PAF attack - IMO it indicates bad news at least ongoing situation (with negative outlook).


Not only that, we released a statement confirming our casualties, then released a new one saying casualties on both sides. Bhai, what was the rush, why couldn't we carefully word the statement the first time around instead of sounding revisionist? I am sure our media management is one end of the spectrum, and our Army's capabilities are the other end of the spectrum.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 16 Jun 2020 20:44

Rishi_Tri wrote:Official MEA Statement (read out on Republic TV:

-----
China breached the consensus on Galwan that had been reached in talks post 6th June. Violent conflict took place on the night of 15th June in Galwan. There are casualties on both sides.
-----

China has suffered losses in Ladakh.

Hats Off to Indian Martyrs and Soldiers. This is not 1962. This is 2020.

Someone posted a tweet earlier that Indian troops had full control over the Galwan valley now, which lends credence to Abhijeeth Iyer’s narrative about how this played out.

- Agreement was reached to withdraw
- Indian patrol stumbled upon Chinese troops when verifying
- Fight broke out & reinforcements came in
- there was a landslide with large casualties on both sides.

I would extrapolate that India then took the initiative & occupied Galwan valley.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby fanne » 16 Jun 2020 20:45

Anmol ji does your last name start with D?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Shameek » 16 Jun 2020 20:46

MEA statement from TOI.

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby anmol » 16 Jun 2020 20:47

fanne wrote:Anmol ji does your last name start with D?

No.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby bkswarti » 16 Jun 2020 20:49

Shameek wrote:MEA statement from TOI.

Key takeaways: Looks like China initiated. Tried to change the status quo. Situation is likely still fluid. All of this is happening on our side of LAC.

Last statement to me sounds like we are sticking our ground so we must have held off the chinese advance and are now looking to de-escalate.
Last edited by bkswarti on 16 Jun 2020 20:51, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Jarita » 16 Jun 2020 20:49

RajaRudra wrote:In war, or in the fog of war. THERE WILL BE LOSES. more than govt here, i feel our media and people in the whole should accept that as part and parcel.
There will be psychological attacks from people of enemy country and some internal. Govt should not come and pressure and should take calculated cold decisions. I hope that is what out govt will take.


Correct. If bleeding hearts are out and about everytime a loss happens, we cannot protect anything. This attitude of the Indian public has become a major liability. Soldiers will die but what is important is that it was worthy. In case anyone says, what is your skin in the game. Yes there is skin in the game.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby KSingh » 16 Jun 2020 20:51

Battle in Ladakh’s Galwan Valley Began With China’s Refusal to Remove Tent from Key Point 14
https://www.news18.com/amp/news/india/b ... ssion=true

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Raveen » 16 Jun 2020 20:52

Major media outlets reporting that we control the disputed area where the incident occured.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby bkswarti » 16 Jun 2020 20:55

Raveen wrote:Major media outlets reporting that we control the disputed area where the incident occured.


This is also in line with how I interpreted the MEA statement.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 16 Jun 2020 20:57

I think like the Chinese rogue capitalism where anything goes, the PLA has also got a rogue element. It works as follows - commanding officers give the signal from Beijing saying "we have agreed to a withdrawal etc". And then they add an incentive - "but hey guys, if you can grab some land or kill some Indian soldiers, you will have a special reward/promotion" - "and in case you get caught/killed, too bad for you, we will wash our hands".

So there are rules and goals, and then there are incentives for "stretch goals" which could be achieved by breaking rules.

We on the other hand don't understand how a company of men can violate a withdrawal agreement and protocol signed off by Beijing. In our minds, this is treachery by definition. In Beijing this is business as usual.

Kind of like how a Chinese company would tell its employees to follow all IP rules. And then it has an incentive structure which rewards employees who can magically make competitors specs and designs appear.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 16 Jun 2020 20:58

khan wrote:Someone posted a tweet earlier that Indian troops had full control over the Galwan valley now, which lends credence to Abhijeeth Iyer’s narrative about how this played out.

- Agreement was reached to withdraw
- Indian patrol stumbled upon Chinese troops when verifying
- Fight broke out & reinforcements came in
- there was a landslide with large casualties on both sides.

I would extrapolate that India then took the initiative & occupied Galwan valley.

Galwan valley is 10's of Kilometers (100+?), our side of Galwan valley can only be described as the "month" (a couple km's at one end).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 16 Jun 2020 21:00

Raveen wrote:Major media outlets reporting that we control the disputed area where the incident occured.

And come next summer, there should be NCC treks to PP14, Col Babu post. And the odd Israeli backpacker group. PP14 needs to be guarded with dugouts, and shoot to kill orders communicated to the Chinese, since they have violated the agreement in that location. We can use fisticuffs elsewhere.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby MeshaVishwas » 16 Jun 2020 21:00

Raveen wrote:Major media outlets reporting that we control the disputed area where the incident occured.

Galwan Valley is ours China historically has not disputed this!

Re the statement, I wished we had a more appropriate response from MEA, China IIRC never even mentioned "Peace and Tranquility" today meanwhile we have.
Almost feels like we want the "moral high ground" too bad.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Pashupatastra » 16 Jun 2020 21:08

abhik wrote:
chola wrote:
Abhik Saar, you're a long timer here like I am. Why would those stories of dozens capture be any more reliable than the 40-50 chinis falling into the ravine?

Even if captured when the opposition had weight of numbers is no f'ing embarassment.

I highly dislike that term be thrown around at this juncture when nothing is clear.


I'm not really interested in fighting about who's "version" to believe (honestly I feel like disengaging (lol) emotionally or don't have the patience).

From experience, no news usually means bad news - good news simply travels faster (people need to take credit no?). And IMO our government has really not shown the stomach to escalate. Heck one can't go through Indian defence twitter with out paki trolls posting bloodied face of our shot down fighter pilot, I'm sure that would not be happening if we had shot down a dozen PAF fighters. This is going to be 10x, If we now just call it a day and agree to go back to barracks (or whatever) - and let's not believe that it will not affect moral of our troops.


Agree with Abhik Sir. We needed to escalate post 28 Feb and we need to respond now. Awaiting details for clearer picture.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 16 Jun 2020 21:08

Picture is not clear yet. We cannot escalate until the picture is clear

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Ambar » 16 Jun 2020 21:12

yensoy wrote:I think like the Chinese rogue capitalism where anything goes, the PLA has also got a rogue element. It works as follows - commanding officers give the signal from Beijing saying "we have agreed to a withdrawal etc". And then they add an incentive - "but hey guys, if you can grab some land or kill some Indian soldiers, you will have a special reward/promotion" - "and in case you get caught/killed, too bad for you, we will wash our hands".

So there are rules and goals, and then there are incentives for "stretch goals" which could be achieved by breaking rules.

We on the other hand don't understand how a company of men can violate a withdrawal agreement and protocol signed off by Beijing. In our minds, this is treachery by definition. In Beijing this is business as usual.

Kind of like how a Chinese company would tell its employees to follow all IP rules. And then it has an incentive structure which rewards employees who can magically make competitors specs and designs appear.


Yes. Also, this mythical chinese "superpower" has remained by and large untested except against their own enslaved citizens and citizens of occupied Tibet and Xinjiang who have been ruthlessly massacred in millions. Lets not forget the Chinese received a bloody nose from the Vietnamese who even after fighting a long, bloody and bitter war against the French, the Americans and among themselves for over 20 years still had the courage and fight in them to end the brutal regime of Chinese puppets Khmer Rouge in Cambodia, and despite the Chinese efforts remained there for over a decade.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby khan » 16 Jun 2020 21:20

abhik wrote:Galwan valley is 10's of Kilometers (100+?), our side of Galwan valley can only be described as the "month" (a couple km's at one end).

My point is, IA might have grabbed something India didn’t control before (heights over Galwan valley?).

Let’s wait for all the facts to come out, it won’t come out from some Parliamentary briefing or press conference - it will be some trusted back channel like Nitin Gokhale or some retired General.

The fact that India still wants to de-escalate is good IMO.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rkirankr » 16 Jun 2020 21:22

Bharadwaj wrote:Gaurav Savant reporting that our troops have full control of pp 14 now.

Where in his channel or on twitter?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby VikramS » 16 Jun 2020 21:26

bkswarti wrote:https://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/2020/06/16/three-indian-soldiers-killed-clash-chinese-border/


Lately, I have had a hard time trusting Indian media as it is scared of speaking against the government. Article says “34 Indian soldiers” missing.

Are there other sources to back this up?



This off-topic, but do you realize how disconnected with reality your statement is.

During the UPA era the press was deeply controlled.

India ceded over 600 sqKM without even a word uttered by the press.
https://www.indiatoday.in/india/north/s ... 2013-09-05

It is only in this administration that India has started to hold her line.

But if you look at the narrative of the Congress-pasand media you would think that this is the biggest disaster since 1962!!

Have you thought about how Arnab and the OpIndia women are being interrogated for hours at an end?

How many Congress friendly journalists have been interrogated for hours by the BJP gov

So please stop making the unsubstaniated and baseless that media does not speak against the gov. The media is more free than it has ever been.
Last edited by VikramS on 16 Jun 2020 21:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Bharadwaj » 16 Jun 2020 21:27

rkirankr wrote:
Bharadwaj wrote:Gaurav Savant reporting that our troops have full control of pp 14 now.

Where in his channel or on twitter?


It was on headlines today (or whatever its now called)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby AshishA » 16 Jun 2020 21:28

Btw hasn't China suffered the casualties after a long long time? Since it must have made it to weibo aren't their idiots also raging 'why china isn't teaching India a lesson and occupying Delhi'

If it so, will China escalate before we do?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Sumair » 16 Jun 2020 21:31

yensoy wrote:I think like the Chinese rogue capitalism where anything goes, the PLA has also got a rogue element. It works as follows - commanding officers give the signal from Beijing saying "we have agreed to a withdrawal etc". And then they add an incentive - "but hey guys, if you can grab some land or kill some Indian soldiers, you will have a special reward/promotion" - "and in case you get caught/killed, too bad for you, we will wash our hands".

So there are rules and goals, and then there are incentives for "stretch goals" which could be achieved by breaking rules.

We on the other hand don't understand how a company of men can violate a withdrawal agreement and protocol signed off by Beijing. In our minds, this is treachery by definition. In Beijing this is business as usual.

Kind of like how a Chinese company would tell its employees to follow all IP rules. And then it has an incentive structure which rewards employees who can magically make competitors specs and designs appear.

My experiance is otherwise. Chinese seldom challege their superiors or deviate from the company line. So whatever they are doing is what they have always done, it is just that we have responded differently this time around.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby stephen » 16 Jun 2020 21:32

ArjunPandit wrote:first of all om shanti to the souls of martyred. Secondly, asking for a kungfu unit is the stupidest thing i have heard on the forum in my stint going two decades. Let's not speculate till we have full details, but chinese need to be given some medicine for sure...


Honestly, if we are allowed to only use sticks and shields with the occasional rock, then the men who are deployed should be trained to brawl using these as weapons, I heard that the US Marines have developed their own martial arts MCMAP and the Israelis have Krav magrav. Next time they brawl with us we should be able to smash their heads.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rsangram » 16 Jun 2020 21:32

The Telegraph(England) is reporting 13 Indian soldiers dead. 32 captured. Scores Injured.

Telegraph also says, that "unconfirmed reports" say that there are 5 casualties on the Chinese side.

The Telegraph treaded very carefully giving out that Chinese casualty figure with qualification after qualification

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 16 Jun 2020 21:35

Now our issue is, if we have to retaliate, what should be the objective of that retaliation?

Attack PLA on the 3 location? Actually only 1 is confirmed intrusion across LAC, on the lake.

Then what? Go all the way to Aksi Chin? If we restrict our attack to LAC, this will firm up LAC, like it has happened for LoC in Kargil. It becomes the redline and defacto border. Atleast LoC is defined on paper, so it can be a redline. Here nothing is on paper, so anything can a redline.

If we try to go all the way, it is a full fledged war. There is LAC because we are not moving it forward. On the other hand we take Aksi chin, the PLA will not respect our position.

This is the problem we have. We are defending an IMAGINARY line. PLA is pushing that imaginary line forward, with the confidence that no shots will be fired.

So either we do tit for tat, as PLA does AND hope that PLA decides to go back. OR prepare your capability to defeat PLA in a rapid campaign, every time it inches forward of our redline.

On LAC the first mover sets the agenda. Just like we did at Doklam.

It is an complex situation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RajaRudra » 16 Jun 2020 21:39

I have been lurking here from 2006. It is used to have an almost pointed discussions. Thanks i learned a lot from that discussions.
But this thread is getting to the level of Social Media. Its time to stand behind Govt and Army like a rock and let them take cool decisions.

Time to show solidarity and support with out If's and Butts.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rkirankr » 16 Jun 2020 21:45

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/12 ... 0300751878 There appears to be more casualties

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Dilbu » 16 Jun 2020 21:46

When was the last time PLA lost soldiers in a conflict with another country?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Lohit » 16 Jun 2020 21:46

nam wrote:Now our issue is, if we have to retaliate, what should be the objective of that retaliation?

Attack PLA on the 3 location? Actually only 1 is confirmed intrusion across LAC, on the lake.

Then what? Go all the way to Aksi Chin? If we restrict our attack to LAC, this will firm up LAC, like it has happened for LoC in Kargil. It becomes the redline and defacto border. Atleast LoC is defined on paper, so it can be a redline. Here nothing is on paper, so anything can a redline.

If we try to go all the way, it is a full fledged war. There is LAC because we are not moving it forward. On the other hand we take Aksi chin, the PLA will not respect our position.

This is the problem we have. We are defending an IMAGINARY line. PLA is pushing that imaginary line forward, with the confidence that no shots will be fired.

So either we do tit for tat, as PLA does AND hope that PLA decides to go back. OR prepare your capability to defeat PLA in a rapid campaign, every time it inches forward of our redline.

On LAC the first mover sets the agenda. Just like we did at Doklam.

It is an complex situation.


Retaliation proportionate or disproportionate need not be done to capture territory.

It can also be done to stuff body bags as well as capture Chinese troops and flood social media with such images.

'62 Chinese inflicted defeat and went back. Presumably we can do the same if we were to decide to go to "war".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby RajaRudra » 16 Jun 2020 21:48

nam wrote:Now our issue is, if we have to retaliate, what should be the objective of that retaliation?

Attack PLA on the 3 location? Actually only 1 is confirmed intrusion across LAC, on the lake.

It is an complex situation.


No sure, can we pound anything that is in our side of perspective LAC. There will be retaliation for sure and mini border war will happen.
If that results in a stalemate, We will gain a REAL LAC. If it escalates , we will be free to fully utilize the Air power and make some real strategic gains.

In both the options, we should not be pushing for guarding each and every inch. Instead should go for gaining strategic features while defending our features as much as possible.

In the end, People should be supportive of govt for bold decisions and actions and not cringing about losses that will invariably come.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby yensoy » 16 Jun 2020 21:51

Sumair wrote:
yensoy wrote:I think like the Chinese rogue capitalism where anything goes, the PLA has also got a rogue element. It works as follows - commanding officers give the signal from Beijing saying "we have agreed to a withdrawal etc". And then they add an incentive - "but hey guys, if you can grab some land or kill some Indian soldiers, you will have a special reward/promotion" - "and in case you get caught/killed, too bad for you, we will wash our hands".

So there are rules and goals, and then there are incentives for "stretch goals" which could be achieved by breaking rules.

We on the other hand don't understand how a company of men can violate a withdrawal agreement and protocol signed off by Beijing. In our minds, this is treachery by definition. In Beijing this is business as usual.

Kind of like how a Chinese company would tell its employees to follow all IP rules. And then it has an incentive structure which rewards employees who can magically make competitors specs and designs appear.

My experiance is otherwise. Chinese seldom challege their superiors or deviate from the company line. So whatever they are doing is what they have always done, it is just that we have responded differently this time around.


You are right. Chinese follow their leaders. If their leadership is a bunch of crooks and people with low ethics, the foot soldiers will follow.

It's not about violating the directive, rather about the directive itself being dilute and reinterpreted down the ranks as a "let's kill some soldiers and get a promotion" type of gambit. There is a guideline, and there is a way of doing things - often times these may diverge.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 16 Jun 2020 21:52

We need more permanent structure on LAC to define a line. the Chinese are objecting for this exact reason. A structure creates a line, which can be publicly seen through satellites.

They inch forward and build that permanent structure.

India needs to release high resolution images of the LAC showing permanent structure of both side. The next the Chinese intrude in to no-man's land and set up camp, we reserve the right to retaliate.

Their intrusion and camps should be made public with co-ordinates. Allowing us the rationale to retaliate.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby mody » 16 Jun 2020 21:53

nam wrote:Now our issue is, if we have to retaliate, what should be the objective of that retaliation?

Attack PLA on the 3 location? Actually only 1 is confirmed intrusion across LAC, on the lake.

Then what? Go all the way to Aksi Chin? If we restrict our attack to LAC, this will firm up LAC, like it has happened for LoC in Kargil. It becomes the redline and defacto border. Atleast LoC is defined on paper, so it can be a redline. Here nothing is on paper, so anything can a redline.

If we try to go all the way, it is a full fledged war. There is LAC because we are not moving it forward. On the other hand we take Aksi chin, the PLA will not respect our position.

This is the problem we have. We are defending an IMAGINARY line. PLA is pushing that imaginary line forward, with the confidence that no shots will be fired.

So either we do tit for tat, as PLA does AND hope that PLA decides to go back. OR prepare your capability to defeat PLA in a rapid campaign, every time it inches forward of our redline.

On LAC the first mover sets the agenda. Just like we did at Doklam.

It is an complex situation.


I wrote a few pages back, that hopefully we will have clear objectives, if hostilities do take place.
Our aim should be take fight to Aksai chin and try and cut off their highway G-219. Also try and capture some of their soldiers if possible.
After the ceasefire, India can negotiate to withdraw to the Macartney-Macdonald line, if the Chinese are willing to accept the line as the official border.

The Chinese were offering this line as the border upto 1959. The British had offered this line as the official border in 1898, but Imperial China did not reply or respond at the time. Hence, later the British went back to the maps as devised in 1862, which included Aksai chin in British India.
The primary objective should be to firm up the actual border, demarcated on ground and official maps released.

I think for us the Macartney-Macdonald line will do. Also for the Chinese, as Aksai chin remains with them and the highway remains for them.
Importantly for us, the border would be firm and further east from where the LAC is right now.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby Larry Walker » 16 Jun 2020 21:53

Zee news now openly calling out that more than 20 Indian soldiers have been martyred - so this is big and will result in escalation for sure. I think we have reached that point-in-time which will determine how our future generations will look back at us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby abhik » 16 Jun 2020 21:54

Shiv Aroor
@ShivAroor
·
28m
Details of the fatal #IndiaChinaFaceOff that have emerged since my newsbreak today are far more disturbing than the original story. In absence of *detailed* statement, all manner of info circulating. Can confirm that some of these *ARE* true. As always, will await Army statement.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby williams » 16 Jun 2020 21:55

stephen wrote:
ArjunPandit wrote:first of all om shanti to the souls of martyred. Secondly, asking for a kungfu unit is the stupidest thing i have heard on the forum in my stint going two decades. Let's not speculate till we have full details, but chinese need to be given some medicine for sure...


Honestly, if we are allowed to only use sticks and shields with the occasional rock, then the men who are deployed should be trained to brawl using these as weapons, I heard that the US Marines have developed their own martial arts MCMAP and the Israelis have Krav magrav. Next time they brawl with us we should be able to smash their heads.


Guys our boys are trained in all sorts of hand to hand combat. But above all, they are trained to follow orders. You unleash them with an order and you will see the bad side of them.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby bkswarti » 16 Jun 2020 21:56

Any news on when the army will provide a statement? A lot of conflicting reports in the media and online

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby nam » 16 Jun 2020 21:56

Lohit wrote:Retaliation proportionate or disproportionate need not be done to capture territory.

It can also be done to stuff body bags as well as capture Chinese troops and flood social media with such images.

'62 Chinese inflicted defeat and went back. Presumably we can do the same if we were to decide to go to "war".


that is the problem. We retaliate, kill PLA AND go back... it means we have forgone our claims to Aksi Chin!

We have to stay at a place and build defense to defend that line. And it depends on if PLA agrees to our defense line. If not, it has enough resources to keep fighting a see saw battle, with each side switching lines!

It is our bloody problem that we haven't challenged PLA lines at LAC. By keeping quiet we made it easy for them.

rkirankr
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020

Postby rkirankr » 16 Jun 2020 21:57

Sudhir Chaudhury : Around 20 Indian soldiers killed and similar number of chinese killed

https://twitter.com/ZeeNews/status/1272920627809144832


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