What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

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Gyan
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What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 14:33

BRF is an important think tank and we have people here with decades of interest in military matters. So lets discuss How can USA actually help India in potential Indo-China War? We have to be realistic in our projections and discussions. We cannot make Fighter and Mortar demands like in 1962, which were ridiculous. It was estimated that it would take 5-10 years to fulfil those demands

War Constraints:-

Equipment should be available and useful by August 2020. Hence lets say, we place order within one week. Delivery from stocks within next week. Training & deployment to run concurrently within next week.

US Constraints:-

No feet on Ground. US will not declare war. US may not even impose any serious sanctions on China. US will not directly participate in war. So its bombers will not fire missiles on Eastern coast of China.

Transaction or sale will be on commercial terms. Though US can release delivery from its war stocks while the new purchase can be used to replace their war stock which would have been delivered to India.

USA will lose interest by end of October, as US elections will take place on 3rd Nov 2020.

Indian Constraints are of Time, affordability, ability to quickly absorb the equipment and actual usefulness.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 14:42

ATGMs

India can place emergency order for Radio Frequency (RF) TOW Missiles. Javelin Manportable are also possible orders but they are very costly. RF TOWs are 1/4th the cost of Javelins.

M777 Howitzers 155mm

India can ask for deliver of M777 held in stocks in USA

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby chola » 23 Jul 2020 14:48

Unlikely to have US armed forces providing assistance. I don't think GOI expects or thinks we need it.

We can expect a goodly amount of Amreeki hardware -- especially if we forgo the Russian stuff. The rush to buy those MiG-29s and SU-30s ruffled eagle feathers:

India Is Buying The Wrong Warplanes For Fighting China
https://www.forbes.com/sites/davidaxe/2 ... d764241281

US mil folks would love to see how their equipment perform against the chinis. For example, we might get an extra squadron of Apaches smashing their Type 15 light tanks. Or maybe Predator UAVs against chini APCs.

Intelligence would be major, major help. US satellite picture and SIGINT. They can also bring in their Japanese and Korean allies who would know more on chini signals than anyone else I'd imagine.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Pratyush » 23 Jul 2020 15:06

Its not some thing that India should count on as most of the US equipment is not compatible with Indian armed forces holdings.

US equipment that can be used by India immediately is as follows;

1) Excalibur 155mm from all 155mm guns as it is not the gun but the targeting computer that is important.
2) Pave way Guidance kits for Jags and Mirage.
3) Hellfire for Apache.
4) The anti armour sensor fused munition for Jag ( forgetting its name)
5) Harpoon anti ship missile, if it comes to naval dimension.

Beyond this I am not aware of any thing that US can supply that India can use immediately.

A better thread would be to try and figure out how quickly OFB and other elements of the Indian MIC can scale up in order to fight PRC in a war that will last more than 6 weeks.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 15:17

Stinger Manpad Missile

Re Pratush. You are talking about CBU-105.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby pushkar.bhat » 23 Jul 2020 15:18

Expect US to provide assistance that is not seen on the battle front. My list is as follows:

1. Intelligence - Tactical and Strategic
2. Tactical and strategic airlift capacities if required.
3. Arms & ammunition, spares, attrition reserves
4. Holding Na-Pak by their OO so that they don't open a front
5. Diplomatic support across multilateral forums

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 15:22

1. Night Vision devices, thermal imagers both for observation, surveillance & personnel use etc

2. Anti Material & Sniper Rifles, GPMGs, HMGs

3. Weapon Sights, scopes, bipod especially for SIG716

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 20:26

OK, I will compose the inputs & Suggestions till now in better layout

War Constraints:-

Equipment should be available and useful by August 2020. Hence lets say, we place order within one week. Delivery from stocks within 2nd week. Training & deployment to run concurrently within 3rd week.

US Constraints:-

No feet on Ground. US will not declare war. US may not even impose any serious sanctions on China. US will not directly participate in war. So its bombers will not fire missiles on Eastern coast of China.

Transaction or sale will be on commercial terms. Though US can release delivery from its war stocks while the new purchase can be used to replace their war stock which would have been delivered to India.

USA will lose interest by end of October, as US elections will take place on 3rd Nov 2020.

Indian Constraints are of Time, affordability, ability to quickly absorb the equipment and actual usefulness.

The Areas where US can help are:-

General

1. Intelligence would be major, major help. US satellite picture, COMINT, SIGINT.

2. They can also bring in their Japanese, Korean, Taiwan allies who would know more on chini signals, language more than anyone else I'd imagine.

3. Tactical and strategic airlift capacities if required to move war material from various places to India

4. Holding Na-Pak by their OO so that they don't open a second front

5. Diplomatic support across multilateral forums

Cyberwarfare

1. USA, Israel can help us in Cuberwarfare. India will be facing attacks from China offcourse.

Army

1. ATGMs

India can place emergency order for Radio Frequency (RF) TOW Missiles. Javelins are also possible orders but they are very costly. RF TOWs are 1/4th the cost of Javelins.

2. Stinger Manpad Missile

3. M777 Howitzers 155mm, India can ask for deliver of M777 held in stocks in USA

4. Excalibur 155mm from all 155mm guns as it is not the gun but the targeting computer that is important. Also GPS fuses for artillery

5. We may need jammers of GPS signals and jamming of fuses of artillery shells etc

6. Night Vision devices, thermal imagers both for observation, surveillance & personnel use etc

7. Anti Material & Sniper Rifles, GPMGs, HMGs

8. Weapon Sights, scopes, bipods especially for SIG716

Airforce

1. Chinooks CH-47 & Apache Helicopters, UAVs

We can ask lease of CH-47 & Apache helicopters equipped with MAWS, DIRCM, Jammers ie the best available self protection suite in US stocks for working in hostile environment.

2. Pave way Guidance kits for Jags and Mirage.

3) Hellfire for Apache.

4) The anti armour sensor fused munition for Jag CBU-105

Navy

1.Harpoon anti ship missile, if it comes to naval dimension.
Last edited by Gyan on 23 Jul 2020 21:23, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby schinnas » 23 Jul 2020 21:07

Timely and uninterrupted supply of hardware such as hellfire missiles, Excalibur shells, etc., along with ELINT, HUMINT and TECHINT is to be taken for granted.

Would they be game changers, not sure as Cheen would have gamed them. So the question is what would be the game changers? Or what super weapon the Cheen are going to field and how we can disrupt it?

The radar signatures of Cheen planes, ships and submarines, know how and capability to jam their radars, laser guns to take down Cheen drones, EMP weapons to disorient cheen drones and missiles and planes, the list is endless.

For some of the super secret weapons like advanced EMPs or laser guns, US may send operatives embedded with Indian army as consultants to operate and ensure protection of the hardware.

If I were NSA, this is what I would ask for and there is lot of value for US - they get to test it in real world conditions for free, give Cheen a bloody nose, validate several of their war game scenarios and update their war book against China.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 21:16

We don't need to win against China, if we just get up and given them a bloody nose, its more than adequate. China is trying to show that they can swat us like a Mosquito without a fight. India just need to give them a kick in the shin and they will hurt a lot. Our war aims need to carefully caliberated while Economic decoupling should be aggressive and long term

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby schinnas » 23 Jul 2020 21:23

No..India needs to win and win convincingly that we buy peace for next 30 years and get the respect of smaller wayward neighbor's like Nepal and Srilanka.

It will totally change the image of India, diving manifold increase in foreign investment and most important of all, enable Indians to shed their dhimmitude and instill a can do attitude.

India should and will focus on and plan for winning visibly. Make no mistake about it.
Last edited by schinnas on 23 Jul 2020 22:35, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 23 Jul 2020 22:27

I agree. I meant winning visibly does not mean capturing Lhasa or Beijing. Its enough we evict them and capture a feature or two

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby MeshaVishwas » 23 Jul 2020 22:29

^^
Info warfare coaching classes?

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby nachiket » 24 Jul 2020 03:52

1. Intelligence sharing, not just in Ladakh and NE but in the IOR as well for monitoring Chinese submarine activity.

2. Extra artillery ammo, both precision (Excalibur) and non-precision. OFB's problems with artillery shells and ammo in general are well known. Extra stocks of Hellfires for the Apaches would also be useful.

3. Scopes for the new SIG-716 rifles. More SIG-716 rifles. More ammo for these as well.

4. More M777's if possible.

5. Fast tracking delivery of second tranche of Harpoons and Mk.54 torpedoes for the P-8's, if not already delivered.

4. MALE/HALE surveillance drones. But this is a more long term procurement, won't be possible before August for sure.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby darshan » 24 Jul 2020 05:11

Gyan wrote:ATGMs

India can place emergency order for Radio Frequency (RF) TOW Missiles. Javelin Manportable are also possible orders but they are very costly. RF TOWs are 1/4th the cost of Javelins.

Javelin's CLU is of the use. The concept variant of Javelin killed some years ago would have been a game changer here. US would have to think about as an investment and provide things at no profit cost.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby brar_w » 24 Jul 2020 05:53

The upgraded CLU (weight reduction) features in the F variant Javelin is currently the production standard. It also features an upgraded warhead. The G variant will bring in a new seeker in the next spiral.

viewtopic.php?t=7088&start=960#p2302019

Raytheon Missiles & Defense and Lockheed Martin announced today they have completed the first production-ready Javelin F-Model anti-tank missile, the latest variant that will be delivered to the Army.

The new F Model has an upgraded multipurpose warhead to defeat current and future armor, including explosive reactive armor, and a fragmenting steel case to eliminate soft targets and light armored vehicles, according to a press release from the companies.

"Now, the warfighters are prepared for any mission without having to switch out different rounds for different targets," Dave Pantano, Javelin Joint Venture vice president said in a press briefing today. "The missile has already endured extensive design verification and qualification testing, which consisted of over 20 flight tests including man-fire tests against multiple target sets in addition to the numerous warhead-level tests conducted just to validate [the warhead] by itself."

The missile has a range of 65 meters up to 4 kilometers "in most operational conditions," according to the briefing.

"The F-model missile will serve as the new baseline for Javelin production and for all future variants from this point forward," Pantano, who works for Lockheed, said.

The companies expect to deliver the F model to the Army this fall, following final verification testing. They are under contract to deliver 511 missiles as the first lot of production.

Meanwhile, the companies are already developing the next Javelin variant after the F model -- the G model, which incorporates an uncooled infrared seeker, modernized guidance section and software upgrades.

https://insidedefense.com/insider/rayth ... el-missile


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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby pandyan » 24 Jul 2020 06:56

The right question is: what will india offer in return?

Even better answer is: use this opportunity to kick start private manufacturing

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby manjgu » 24 Jul 2020 08:41

pandyan wrote:The right question is: what will india offer in return?

Even better answer is: use this opportunity to kick start private manufacturing



USD ... and more USD .. And hopefully a base in andamans?? I would ask for M142 HIMARS ,,,hahahahaha...and few Growlers !!!

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby suryag » 24 Jul 2020 09:19

Sosus data please

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Jul 2020 11:25

While we are at it, can they provide P8 with jassm-er?

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 24 Jul 2020 17:52

Cain Marko wrote:While we are at it, can they provide P8 with jassm-er?


JASSAM-ER can be launched from P8, Jaguars, Mirage 2000s
Last edited by Gyan on 25 Jul 2020 01:08, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby fanne » 24 Jul 2020 18:19

I think the biggest assistance will be many English educated Indians will go to sleep peacefully knowing that Big Uncle is helping.
It is pity that less than 5% of our weapon is of uncle's origin yet we have a thread on how love will be shown. Others who provide 95% of it do not have a thread. I believe it is more of a psychological need than arms/intelligence (and I doubt it is by Indian Defense Forces)

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby schinnas » 24 Jul 2020 18:30

fanne-
None of the other arms suppliers have a vested interest in seeing China lose. And none can match the intel Uncle could provide.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby fanne » 24 Jul 2020 19:31

Sure and Intel coop is going on.
Other arm supplier do not have bested interest in China lose ?
Lets think this through -
Russia - It does face challenges from west and wants to partner with China to stave that off. China of today is not China of last year - It wants to be the biggest dog (bigger than the current big one - USA). It is definitely bigger than when Russia (USSR) and China last clashed - in 1960s (China was perhaps 1/10th of USSR, now it is 10 times of Russia). To think that Russians will be happy to see China replace USA as number one is really insulting their interest (with China they share humongous border, and that too their soft underbelly). Against India, that should be even an easier decision for them. And didn't they supply 1 billion worth of weapon in last month?
Israel - Our second bigger supplier - I don't know why they will prefer China over India
US - They also want to see China defeated, with one additional requirement - we be their munna else
France - I don't know why they will prefer China over India

Even if US wanted to help us, unless they fight for us with man and machine, apart from intelligence sharing (which I believe is happening good, I am sure other countries are also helping), we have limited weapon and mostly only that many trained personnel, perhaps more F-777 and Excalibur, more apaches and hell fires. But SU30MKI and Mig 29 can be quickly absorbed (SU30MKI will just top off current SQ, mig 29 4th sq can easily get pilots from other three).

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby amar_p » 25 Jul 2020 00:44

Apart from the areas of cooperation posted above, US will send a clear message to China that even thinking of nuke options tactical or otherwise on India will result in appropriate US response on top of India's own second strike, effectively taking out that rung of the escalation ladder. Unkil will not allow the war to go beyond conventional.

US most likely has some level of "assets" in China that can be activated and put into action to create some points of attack from the inside. But they may be used only if really deemed necessary and can swing the outcome.

US will support Japan, Taiwan, Australia, Philippines... to take aggressive postures (besides getting highly aggressive itself) which will be a significant distraction at the least, and create a 3 or 4 front scenario that China will not be able to face.

US and NATO will lose no time to impose crippling economic sanctions on China in the event of a war with India which will negate China's three decades of progress. Not to speak of shunning of Chinese imports by the masses in these countries which will crisp fry the already cooked Peking duck.

I'm not sure how much getting new military hardware (except perhaps rifles and combat gear) will help. Any new artillery weapon or heli or any other system in any of the tri-services will need significant familiarisation, integration into doctrine, training, operational induction & deployment, logistics streamlining and service/support capabilities which take a lot of time to build and master. The conflict if it happens, will be sharp and SHORT - 2 to 3 weeks - leaving no time for untested silver bullets to be brought to bear by Indian forces.

JMT.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jul 2020 07:29

fanne wrote:

France - I don't know why they will prefer China over India



France has been lobbying to lift the sanctions of not selling Weapons by NATO nations. It is USA that's not allowing that to happen.

Slimey frogs want to sell weapons to china desperately.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Roop » 25 Jul 2020 08:02

nachiket wrote:1. Intelligence sharing, not just in Ladakh and NE but in the IOR as well for monitoring Chinese submarine activity.

I believe the IOR part is already happening -- has been for a couple of years.

suryag wrote:Sosus data please

See my remark above.

Manish_Sharma wrote:Slimey frogs want to sell weapons to china desperately.

Why blame only the French? The whole bloody industrialized weapons-selling world (other than the US) would do it if they could. Israel wants to do it. Every European country I can think of would love to do it. Russia has been doing it for years.

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Manish_Sharma » 25 Jul 2020 11:46

TWITTER

@Maverick_Bharat:

India moves to buy 6 more Poseidons from US for $1.8bn


https://t.co/GxsSZXrFgt
https://twitter.com/Maverick_bharat/sta ... 30496?s=19

Reply:

@Daeroplate:
These 6 need to get beefed up elint suites and even a side looking sar radar with gmti capability for dual role use over land. Such costly units cannot be confined to one service and one role


https://twitter.com/daeroplate/status/1 ... 41632?s=19

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby srin » 25 Jul 2020 12:51

In the short-term, here's what I expect:
- Must-have: No CAATSA
- Should-have: spares for the Khan equipment (P-8I, Apache, C-17, C-130), accelerated delivery of MH-60R
- Nice-to-have: Intel on Chinese military movements in Tibet, IOR and SCS, lease of AWACS (since we have a huge gap)

In long-term, here's what I'd expect:
- Must-have: No CAATSA applicable to us, written into law
- Should-have: Local manufacturing of F404, F414 and LM2500, FMS of KC-46 (since A330 MRTT isn't seemingly going anywhere), jointly operated SOSUS in Southern IOR, eastern and western IOR.
- Nice-to-have: FDI in defense for local design and outsourced/off-shore manufacturing of defense products for export

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Re: What military assistance can US give to India in Indo-China War?

Postby Gyan » 25 Jul 2020 16:57

An interesting aspect is whether US Satellites & Stealth UAVs can jam or disrupt Chinese Radars, if yes? Then IAF will Rip Apart PLAAF & rout PLA on first week itself, with remote assistance of USA.


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