Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sivab » 13 Aug 2020 11:46

^^^
CoMPASS Rev III is a day-and-night surveillance system that includes a Colour TV Daylight Camera, 3rd Generation Medium Wave IR (MWIR) sensor, Laser Target Designator and Range Finder (LTDRF), Short Wave IR (SWIR), internal GPS and automatic tracking capabilities, as well as command and control capabilities. It has a variety of interfaces like the mission computer, fire control, radar, GPS, data downlink and helmet-mounted tracking systems. It is suitable for long-range, day-and-night surveillance, target tracking, fire control applications and search and rescue.

CoMPASS Rev III is the advanced version of its payload family with advanced operational and video processing.


https://www.defenseworld.net/news/24341 ... zTTrMBKgmY

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby deejay » 13 Aug 2020 12:07

Hari Nair wrote:The LCH is designed to meet a specific percentile of crashworthiness, as defined in Mil Standard .
Towards this:
- The landing gear oleos have a two-stage design. The first stage caters for normal operations. The second stage compression caters for the crash loads.
- The lower portion of the fuselage has a section that is designed to crush, to attenuate the crash loads, after the oleos have absorbed the initial impact and the fuselage contacts the surface.
- The seats for the Pilot and Weapon Systems Operator are crash-worthy. These seats are mounted on rails and stroke downwards to further reduce the acceleration. The seat loads are absorbed by its Variable Load Energy Absorbers. The idea being to finally reduce the 'g' load on the spine to below 14.
So, its essentially a three-stage approach - using the oleos, the crush portions and the seat for energy attenuation in the event of a crash with vertical velocities more than 2000 feet per minute.

- When up close, its very evident that the oleos and attachment points are beefy - they remind me in size, of those on the Mi-17: which is a 13 tonne helicopter!
- The testing of the LCH landing gear was done on a rig that was used to check out the Navy LCA's landing gear. However the rig had to be modified, since the LCH landing gear had to be dropped from a even higher height. The landing gear, with ballast representing the helicopter weight came down with a mighty crashing sound in the rig - it passed the test in a single go. My instinct tells me that its capable of taking more punishment and has a generous amount of over-design. Which is a good thing for an attack helicopter


Thank You for the detailed posts Sir.

Those landing gears indeed standout, One side-on look and they stand out. I often wondered why and now I get it. Also great to hear about the ACs. From a crew perspective this is a great thing.

Elsewhere at another discussion group we had some back and forth on the selection of rigid rotors for the LCH over semi rigid and fully articulate toros. May I request you to kindly further explain the choice of rigid rotors.

Regards

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby tsarkar » 13 Aug 2020 15:05

Hari Nair wrote:^^^ Are we sure the IAF is not ready to order the LCH? Also, are we sure the LCH has no EW suite or no CMDS? Finally, are we sure the picture of the LCH that has been commented on (locations of various sensors, etc) is representing the the LSP or production version? Are we sure that all HAL needs to do is pop across to the nearest vendor and just buy EW stuff and bolt them on?And finally, are we sure we should be discussing and laying out every minutiae of the program on an open forum? :)

I was commenting on the two fake photos and the fertile imagination of the photo creator and other posters who extrapolate fake nonsense in the absence of facts instead of just letting things be what and where they are.

Doesn't diminish my appreciation in any way of the team working on the project or the helicopter in any way :)

On the other hand fake graphics like the one posted at the beginning of the thread completely smears the credibility of the actual people doing good work.

Projecting a tail light as DIRCM and tail rotor hub as CMDS is like Munnabhai MBBS 2 father in law's morphed photos with US President :D
Last edited by tsarkar on 13 Aug 2020 16:53, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby tsarkar » 13 Aug 2020 15:13

sajaym wrote:Most of the stores in the above fig seem to belong to the aircraft already in IAF inventory (I can see Mig series, Mi-35, Jag/Mirage stores), so my assumption is that the LCH has already been qualified with all of the stores in this fig. Since HAL already has access to these stores and it's pilots/developers already have the data for these weapons. So it could be that all these can be carried on the LCH on an urgent basis if needed.

Which leads me to assume that if the LCH is based in the LEH airbase, it can technically carry most of the stores which might be kept there for use by the other IAF aircraft. Could I be right?


Yes and no. For example, a basic fact is that lug spacing of Russian and Western origin weapons is different. So the same pylon cannot carry both. And integration work is necessary.

Most of the Russian weaponry in the photo is obsolete. So if any integration work is happening, then let it be with modern weaponry.

The IAF has fitted Matra Magic to MiG-21 and R-73E to Mirage 2000, so its not impractical but needs work.
Last edited by tsarkar on 13 Aug 2020 15:21, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby tsarkar » 13 Aug 2020 15:16

tsarkar wrote:Only Rudra has the SAAB MAWS and LWR above the cockpit and under the clam shell doors and CMDS under the India Roundel

Missed the underlined part yesterday.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Khalsa » 13 Aug 2020 15:34

Many Thanks to Both Hari Nair and Ramana Sirs

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kartik » 13 Aug 2020 16:11

Hari Nair wrote:^^^ Are we sure the IAF is not ready to order the LCH? Also, are we sure the LCH has no EW suite or no CMDS? Finally, are we sure the picture of the LCH that has been commented on (locations of various sensors, etc) is representing the the LSP or production version? Are we sure that all HAL needs to do is pop across to the nearest vendor and just buy EW stuff and bolt them on?And finally, are we sure we should be discussing and laying out every minutiae of the program on an open forum? :)


Key point noted sir- 'production version'. :)

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 13 Aug 2020 18:12

Hari Nair sir: a thought-experiment question.

If war breaks out tomorrow at the LAC and the IA asks a jerry-rigged LCH + Helina combo to be made ready ASAP, how much time will it take?

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby fanne » 14 Aug 2020 00:20

Why Jurry rigged Helina? Is Helina ready? What about command and control, perhaps slaving with helmet sight etc. These all will need time and Helina being indigenous should be pursued vigorously to completion. But it is some months/years away from completion. The current govt will make sure that once it is completed, it will be acquired in number.
BUT,
We are at war right now, or if not this year, perhaps next. Chicoms have decided to mount a mechanized attack on us (almost all their divisions facing us are mechanized). With plenty of mountain and hills around, a helicopter borne anti-armor will do wonders. In recognition of that fact we have placed Apaches there (of which we have meager 22 of them). LCH will do wonders and we can get 15 (in advance stage of production, supposedly built already by HAL? +2 (already made) =17 of these fairly quickly (of course pilots have to be trained etc). 17 numbers in Depsang will be a good number to blunt chinese mechanized thrust.
These 17 LCH already have Elbit Compass (which btw we license produce at BEL, along with local maintenance agreement).
https://www.business-standard.com/conte ... 244_1.html

These are the same system on Rudras. Not sure if fire control, mission computer et al are integrated. But the fastest integration that can be done is Spike (which is better and cheaper than Hellfire). IA operates spike, if recent reports are to be believed the ground forces acquired Spike ER. So we operate in house all the pieces. The only non-trivial part remaining is to integrate all of these on LCH. If can be done in few months, then like 1962 in china decides to launch in October/November, we will have something. The other 150 LCH can have any missile it wants (Helina). The only caveat is that integration should not cost us arm and leg, not under the guise of emergency. It is within our power to get some 17 LCH fighting ready in Ladhak.

Excepts from the link -
https://www.business-standard.com/conte ... 244_1.html
The CoMPASS is a day-and-night surveillance system that includes a colour TV daylight camera, third generation 3-5 micrometer forward looking infrared (FLIR) sensor, laser target designator and range finder (LTDRF) and automatic tracking capabilities, as well as command and control capabilities. It is distinguished by a wide variety of interfaces, enabling integration with various aircraft / helicopter systems, such as mission computer, fire control, radar, GPS, data downlink and helmet-mounted tracking systems. Its small dimensions, low weight, high level of stabilisation and coverage angles make it an optimal choice for long-range, day-and night surveillance, target tracking, fire control applications and search and rescue.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby John » 14 Aug 2020 03:35

System is called DCompass you can see who is featured in Elbit’s site.

https://elbitsystems.com/product/stabilized-payloads-3/

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2020 03:47

Fanne et al, Does this Compass pass son target data to the fire control andd that pass it on to the missile?
The SPIKE ER is the helicopter version?

Spike-ER
Extended range or extra-long range version of the weapon (Israeli designation: NT-Dandy or NT-D). It has a minimum range of 400 m and a maximum range of 8,000 m (5.0 mi).[24] It has a larger diameter and is heavier than the other systems, and is usually vehicle mounted. It is used by infantry, Light Combat Vehicle (LCVs), and helicopters. The Finnish Navy's Coastal Jaegers and Philippine Navy's Multi-purpose Attack Craft Mk.III also operate this version in the anti-ship role. The weight of the missile is 34 kg (74 lb 15 oz), the launchers are 30 kg (66 lb 2 oz) and 55 kg (121 lb 4 oz) respectively for the vehicle and air-launched versions. Penetration is around 1,000 mm (39 in) of RHA.[18]


In April 2019, following the 2019 border skirmishes with Pakistan, the Indian Army approved an emergency purchase of 240 Spike MR missiles and 12 launchers to meet immediate requirements,[59] which were inducted into service in early October 2019.[60][clarification needed]


From this data ER is not available in India.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2020 04:12

OK. The Elbit Compass passes on data to the TADS that passes the firing commands to the launchers via the helmet sight..

The LCH has an integrated data link to participate in network-centric operations. Its onboard sensor suite, developed by HAL in cooperation with Israel has a CCD camera, a forward looking infrared (FLIR) imaging sensor, laser rangefinder, and a laser designator.


Can the laser designator be used to guide the ATGMS? Or is it just for ranging?

How did they plan to guide the Helina?
The SPIKE -ER?

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2020 04:25

Also I haven't seen any data on the M621 Nexeter gun.
What type of shells and what armor it can take out?

But firing video is great.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby MeshaVishwas » 14 Aug 2020 04:30

Ramana saar, I think we have the Spike LR.
The attached ANI video is great too, top attack mode I think.
https://www.timesnownews.com/india/arti ... deo/520604

And according to Rafael, the ER is good for 16Km from a Rotary launch platform
https://www.rafael.co.il/worlds/land/sp ... -missiles/

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2020 04:38

Ok. But its not a helicopter launced version.
Right now the choices are:
1) Helina/Dhruvastra In development. Should be rushed. Enough trials nonsense.
2) Spike ER Need to be purchaased and integrated.
3) Hellfire Already with Apaches. Its question of can it be integrated on LCH?
Hellfire needs laser designator. Maybe from a UAV?

Loking for solutions today not later.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby fanne » 14 Aug 2020 04:45

We have ER if you want to believe bababanaras (I know how could we, but he has been very consistent). The TOI news also confirms...and it makes sense, to have it in some numbers for Ladakh sector (to neutralize chinese mechanized element at distance, not using second generation, 2 km distance, LOS ATGMs. Nothing wrong with them, we are going to use a lot of them when needed (we have some 40,000 of these), but it exposes men and works great in ambush situation, not in relatively open area or in unplanned situations.
The Compass definitely has the capability to synch with a targeting computer/mission computer, then synch with HMTS. This part I suspect is not done and since situation is desperate, we may be forced to pay bigger for this. But all in all, 1000 Spike ER holding would be around 150 million dollar. Maybe just for 15 LCH we don't need more than 300 missile (20 per LCH), 30 -40 million dollars. But it certainly gives ample options for IA/IAF with LCH combo.
Put price correction, I was off by a factor of 10
price-
https://nation-creation.fandom.com/wiki ... icing_List
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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby MeshaVishwas » 14 Aug 2020 04:48

ramana wrote:Also I haven't seen any data on the M621 Nexeter gun.
What type of shells and what armor it can take out?

But firing video is great.

Saar 4 types of rds listed in the catalogue for the M621:
https://www.nexter-group.fr/en/nos-produits
Image
Image
Image
Image

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2020 06:30

Thanks a lot. Clears up the fog. Very clear need to find a. Missile.

Spike ER is nice

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ks_sachin » 14 Aug 2020 06:32

ramana wrote:
Avionics
• Elbit CoMPASS opto-electronic suite
• Missile approach warning system
• Saab radar and laser warning system
• Chaff and flare dispensers

Hari Nair,

What does Elbit Compass do?

Thanks



Ramana sir I asked you a question in the Arty thread about the kind of charge used in arty direct firing mode?
Would you be kind enough to educate me.

Regards

S

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Mort Walker » 14 Aug 2020 07:24

http://elbitsystems.com/landing/wp-cont ... yloads.doc

CoMPASS™ (Compact Multi Purpose Advanced Stabilized System) is a highly stabilized, multi-sensor electro-optical payload system, adaptable to ground vehicles, airborne (both fixed and rotary-wing aircraft) and marine combat vessels. The multi-sensor, stabilized system capable of 24/7 observation, tracking, range measuring, aiming and target designation of marine, ground and air targets, delivering superb day and night intelligence, surveillance, target acquisition and reconnaissance (ISTAR) capabilities. CoMPASS has been selected for the UK Watchkeeper UAV program.


https://elbitsystems.com/electro-optic-sensors/

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Aug 2020 12:13

Fanne ji: no disrespect, but my question was for Hari Nair sir

If war breaks out tomorrow at the LAC and the IA asks a jerry-rigged LCH + Helina combo to be made ready ASAP, how much time will it take?

The reason for my question is this:

1) I think the Helina is ready. There has been enough successful trials. But the IA is dragging its feet, doing the usual hot & high, low & cold infinite series of trials, that seem to be reserved only for desi products. Plus they are leading the DRDO on a wild-goose chase with SANT & Dhruvastra, while Helina itself is not inducted

2) Helina offers the quickest path to induction because its already been test fired from Rudra. Spike or Hellfire has not!

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Aditya_V » 14 Aug 2020 14:17

It will also need a lot of AAM- dont think Mistral numbers will be enough to take on PLA Drone swarms.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby fanne » 14 Aug 2020 16:42

Prem Kumar ji , no offense taken. I want to know myself. My narrative is based on speculation and biased news. He would know the inside truth (and that may make it harder to reveal, lest you step on someone’s sensibility).
Btw corrected spike cost, perhaps each cost around 1/3 of a million, so we holding 300 missile is only 100 million dollars, not terribly costly and perhaps easier than solving issues (real or imagined) with Helina.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby darshan » 14 Aug 2020 17:50

Even duds can be weapons. Anything that took a tour of test range should have all it's specs, test results, etc. classified and it should have been at a border by now if India had any properly working intelligence network. LCHs should have been adopted by Indian military as soon as they were flight worthy irrespective of other requirements. Is Indian military under the impression that it's US military and there are umpteen number of weapons programs running? Even US military takes out their unfinished weapons out on field and has many deficiencies classified and units eventually get replaced. There's absolutely no reason why a group in Indian military could not have been playing around with flight worthy Indian weapons in border areas from day one to keep enemy guessing and preparing.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby fanne » 14 Aug 2020 17:57

LCH on HAL rigs - 5 seams to be advanced stage (date of pic unknown)
https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 80/photo/1

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby mody » 14 Aug 2020 19:46

I would prefer if they can integrate the Hellfire with the LCH, along with the Stingers. We have purchased a fairly large quantity of Hellfire missiles, along the with 22 Apache's. Having common weapons for both attack helicopters would be a bonus and reduce the inventory. Likewise, the Helina should also be integrated with the Apache, whenever it gets inducted and also the SANT, as and when it comes along. No point in adding another type of weapon system. In many cases, both the helicopters might be deployed together and having common set of weapons, would help a lot.
Never really understood the Mistral choice, as Stinger was also available and cheaper then Mistral!! When we have purchased Stingers for the Apache, why not use the same for the LCH as well.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby MeshaVishwas » 14 Aug 2020 20:25

Just going through the Terroristani DGISPR briefing, the A129 Turdogan bit caught my interest.
The specs on the LCH and A129/T129 are comparable but LCH has over half a Km higher ceiling and 800Kg more MTOW!
The Brits/Italians bleed Turdoganistan and they, in turn pass it on to the hapless Bakis. Good for them.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby ramana » 14 Aug 2020 20:50

Going back thru my old files, Helina is dead. It was replaced with Dhruvastra which was supposed to complete (PDC) 23 Jan 2021.

I don't know whats the differences between Helina and Dhrubastra are?

It's the constant tinkering with completed projects that delays the adoption.

So what are the differences that needed renaming the missile?

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Kakarat » 14 Aug 2020 22:13

fanne wrote:LCH on HAL rigs - 5 seams to be advanced stage (date of pic unknown)
https://twitter.com/Amitraaz/status/129 ... 80/photo/1


If I am right its a grab from this video from Feb 2019


So it could be the first one and should be in equipping stage now

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Aug 2020 22:42

ramana wrote:Going back thru my old files, Helina is dead. It was replaced with Dhruvastra which was supposed to complete (PDC) 23 Jan 2021.

I don't know whats the differences between Helina and Dhrubastra are?

It's the constant tinkering with completed projects that delays the adoption.

So what are the differences that needed renaming the missile?


If Helina is dead after all the trials, then it has joined the elite club of Shaurya & Nirbhay. Perfectly functional missiles, with successful tests under their belt, labeled as "tech demonstrators" while the search continues for unobtanium

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby Prem Kumar » 14 Aug 2020 22:46

And yes, if we had inducted 500 Shauryas, the Chinese will fear that if they hit our airfields hard, we will hit back harder. Anything within 1500 Kms would've been within striking distance, including their airfields.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby KSingh » 15 Aug 2020 01:07

Guys this ATGM discussion is moot as far as current operational needs are concerned. LCH is designed largely for the east but specifically the extreme north ie Leh and this is evident by the fact that the IAF has for hand built prototypes belonging to HAL to begin patrols up there.


So where does ATGM come into this picture? For PLA in the area they are located in tents and driving soft skin vehicles, even if they do deploy their light tanks the 20mm cannon or 70mm rockets will slice through anything PLA has in the area like a hot knife through butter.


The biggest issue of LCH in the area is IMHO the lack of an integrated AAM (mistral) orders which can be a legitimate emergency purchase. These are needed as a primary role of the LCH will be to shoot down UAVs and opposing helos.


As of early 2020 HAL has self funded the fabrication of 10 (of 15) LSP airframes, these could all be made operational within 6 months quite easily, it’s frankly criminal that the MoD/PMO hasn’t shifted into high gear on this. The first purchase after Galwan June 15 should’ve been giving HAL the contract for the LSP birds, 2 months later and they’ve had to deploy PROTOTYPES- this has to be an unprecedented situation. This is fine as an interim step but where’s the roadmap here? It’s unfathomable to me that they still haven’t given the contract for LSP.

I am curious about the lack of SPS/EW on at least TD4, could HAL be so confident of their computer modelling and the fact that they have already fully understood the system ( on Rudra) that they don’t feel the need to demonstrate it on the real airframe until they get to LSP airframes?

This is a concern though as TD3/4 that are now deployed up in Leh are without even RWR, I’d assume they are flying in mixed flights with Apaches and or Rudras otherwise they will be entirely blind and IAF has learned this lesson from kargil surely (but apparently not).


This is clearly a huge learning opportunity for HAL though that will helo them in terms of supporting the LCH at forward bases when it does enter service with the forces but by now IAF/IA should be making preparations to induct the birds but instead they are calling in HAL for help, can anyone imagine them calling up Boeing to deploy some of their test AH-64s?

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby k prasad » 15 Aug 2020 02:52

KSingh wrote:So where does ATGM come into this picture? For PLA in the area they are located in tents and driving soft skin vehicles, even if they do deploy their light tanks the 20mm cannon or 70mm rockets will slice through anything PLA has in the area like a hot knife through butter.


Yes, and no.

Cannon can be somewhat "guided" but the range is relatively short (<2 km), and requires line-of-sight, which places the helo at risk from MANPADs (which have a longer range).

ATGMs on the other hand, have a longer range (4-8 km), are fire-and-forget (Spike ER or Helina), and are also useful against fixed fortifications such as pillboxes etc. Neither the cannon nor the rockets can effectively tackle these.

Rockets might have the range and penetrating power, but being unguided, aren't accurate enough for small pillboxes and bunkers on mountains, where accuracy is paramount. Plus, they face the same line-of-sight issues as with the cannon.

Your point about the gun and rockets being effective enough for the kind of vehicles and structures we'd see is only valid until the ground forces pull out MANPADS. Then, the lack of a guided fire-and-forget ATGM becomes a liability. And you can absolutely bet that PLA will have MANPADS deployed in strength with any forces they send against us. They would've studied the Kargil War with great interest.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby suryag » 15 Aug 2020 03:09

One of our own here had mentioned that there is no freaking way that you can hit a target using the cannon and it will always miss the target, just spray on the target and hope some hit the target

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby John » 15 Aug 2020 03:25

k prasad wrote:Rockets might have the range and penetrating power, but being unguided, aren't accurate enough for small pillboxes and bunkers on mountains, where accuracy is paramount. Plus, they face the same line-of-sight issues as with the cannon.

The FZ231 rocket launcher can carry laser guided rockets

https://fz.be/laser-guided-rocket

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby k prasad » 15 Aug 2020 04:02

^^^
John, from the url,

It makes it clear that the rocket is useful against **Soft** bunkers and lightly armored vehicles. AND

"The SAL-Laser Guided Rocket FZ275 LGR requires designation of the target by a laser designator."


so there goes your fire-and-forget capability. Line-of-sight issues not only remain, but the platform needs to lase the target from before the point of firing till the point of impact. Even assuming a max. speed of about 700 m/s (in line with say the Hydra 70 rocket, for a 4 or 5 km range, thats at least 6-7 seconds of static exposed time. It is possible to have a ground designator, but that only works with boots on the ground, i.e., frontline engagement. It doesn't work when the helo is targetting logistics convoys behind the frontlines.

Also, the narrow valley and mountainous terrain also increases the risk to the helo, because the helo can't just 'pop over the mountain', when the ridgelines are at 20-22k feet. The helo is forced to fly along the valley for both ingress and egress. Its not the most forgiving of environments, and the key is to get in and get out as soon as possible. Any loiter increases risk multi-fold

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby John » 15 Aug 2020 06:12

k prasad wrote:It makes it clear that the rocket is useful against **Soft** bunkers and lightly armored vehicles. AND

Yea my point of reply was to address there is guided missile though it SAL guided and not meant for armored targets it does give us something which is better than nothing. Also laser guidance can be done by external source so helicopter doesn't need to be exposed.

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby KSingh » 15 Aug 2020 06:15

k prasad wrote:
KSingh wrote:So where does ATGM come into this picture? For PLA in the area they are located in tents and driving soft skin vehicles, even if they do deploy their light tanks the 20mm cannon or 70mm rockets will slice through anything PLA has in the area like a hot knife through butter.


Yes, and no.

Cannon can be somewhat "guided" but the range is relatively short (<2 km), and requires line-of-sight, which places the helo at risk from MANPADs (which have a longer range).

ATGMs on the other hand, have a longer range (4-8 km), are fire-and-forget (Spike ER or Helina), and are also useful against fixed fortifications such as pillboxes etc. Neither the cannon nor the rockets can effectively tackle these.

Rockets might have the range and penetrating power, but being unguided, aren't accurate enough for small pillboxes and bunkers on mountains, where accuracy is paramount. Plus, they face the same line-of-sight issues as with the cannon.

Your point about the gun and rockets being effective enough for the kind of vehicles and structures we'd see is only valid until the ground forces pull out MANPADS. Then, the lack of a guided fire-and-forget ATGM becomes a liability. And you can absolutely bet that PLA will have MANPADS deployed in strength with any forces they send against us. They would've studied the Kargil War with great interest.


A fair point about the MANPADS but the point about laser designation isn’t a huge concern- this can be done by a sister ship or from a UAV/fighter or ground personnel.


Also the rocket can be used against soft skin and light (not lightly) armoured vehicles, their light tanks certainly count as that in fact in anything but the front 3/4 section anything larger than a 7.62mm round will penetrate.


Their fortified bunkers naturally are going to be a challenge for the rockets.


No doubt ATGM would be nice to have but the lack of one should not be preventing the IAF/IA from ordering the LCH. For now with the canon and rockets she can do the job with chances of a shooting war still being very low but building up valuable fleet hours. Worst worst case scenario the 64Es come in with their 16* Hellfire each (maybe a bit less at these altitudes) to take out the ‘HVTs’ and LCHs/Rudras come along behind them to mop up


ATGM will obviously come and at this point I think it’s sensible to wait for HELINA which is not far away instead of trying to integrate, validate, certify and order an off the shelf ATGM that would take just as long to be ready. More than 4 squadrons of Rudra ( likely more given IAF numbers) are in service without the ATGMs ready also and they are building up valuable fleet time. Better to get the teething issues every new type (LCH) faces out of the way ASAP instead of letting perfect be the enemy of good enough

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby k prasad » 15 Aug 2020 12:37

No doubt ATGM would be nice to have but the lack of one should not be preventing the IAF/IA from ordering the LCH.


Oh absolutely!! On that, I have no disagreement! Get more of them, and get them now. If Helina is well tested and ready to integrated, then we'd better do it ASAP.

A fair point about the MANPADS but the point about laser designation isn’t a huge concern- this can be done by a sister ship or from a UAV/fighter or ground personnel.


My point was more about the part of your comment above, Ksingh-ji, which suggested the ATGM wasn't necessarily as important. My contention is that it absolutely is important, and a lack of an ATGM will be a critical shortcoming in case things go kinetic. That said, LCH, even without ATGMs will still have significant combat potential, as you've stated earlier, and I agree with.

Better to get the teething issues every new type (LCH) faces out of the way ASAP instead of letting perfect be the enemy of good enough


I couldn't have said it better! Sadly, while other armed forces around the world accept this as a rule (Israel with the Merkava, US with the Bradleys or the JSF or any number of other systems), our armed forces seem to have been spoiled by the decades of import-raj, and either refuse to, or don't know how to work in concert with designers to improve slightly sub-par systems!

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Re: Light Combat Helicopter: News & Discussion: 10 August 2020

Postby sanjayc » 15 Aug 2020 14:02

Never-ending user trials, unexpected new demands for modifications / improvements quite late in the development cycle, and rejecting the whole system by citing a problem with some peripheral capability are common strategies used to thwart Indian items. These deliberately created delays are then used as an excuse to go for imports.


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