India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby k prasad » 08 Sep 2020 02:21

https://www.news18.com/news/india/china-sneers-never-recognized-so-called-arunachal-pradesh-after-kidnapping-of-five-indian-men-2856281.html

This incident is really odd in my mind, and its hard to make sense of what the rationale for the 'kidnapping' might be. I think there's definitely something going on behind the scenes here that'll become clearer in time.

I can think of a few possible scenarios, that the group are either:

1. Lost / still hunting and incommunicado, and will return when they're done.
2. Met with a accident (rock fall, avalanche, etc) and are either dead or injured, and need S&R.
3. Accidentally crossed the LAC and were captured by PLA patrols. China will use this opportunity to make a not-so-subtle pressure point about South Tibet, feign ignorance, then appear magnanimous and let them go eventually.
4. Deliberately kidnapped by China as leverage and to make the point about South Tibet.
5. If the reports that they were just returning from porter duty with the IA are correct, they might've been deliberately kidnapped for intel gathering and interrogation about Indian positions.
6. Accidentally ran into a Chinese Spec Ops force conducting a covert operation on the indian side and were 'neutralized' to prevent detection

I'm hoping its just 1 or 3.

China deliberately crossing the LAC to kidnap them makes little to no geopolitical sense, because as non-combatant civilians, those Chinese actions will only make them look especially bad. I wonder if we actually have chinese POWs and China, unable to capture any of our soldiers is resorting to capturing civilians for leverage? Also, a Chinese LAC incursion operation to capture civilians is a particularly high-risk, low-reward move, because it risks setting off a bigger conflagaration.

My biggest worry though, is with scenarios 5 and 6, because it suggests things are much more tense, and that the Chinese forces are conducting serious operations behind our lines. 5 means the PLA has a strong intel-gathering ability behind our lines, 6 means they're actually putting boots on our side of the line for covert ops.

If that is indeed whats happening, the immediate publicizing of this news has probably halted those operations, because you can be sure the IA has stepped up patrolling massively in that area. We need to strengthen our positions on the heights and chokepoints around AP.

At a strategic level, this does look like an attempt to open up a new front by proxy, and force the IA to activate along these areas, which the PLA can then study our response and plan ops accordingly.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby IndraD » 08 Sep 2020 02:40

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 987596.cms
LADAKH: An incident of firing took place on the Line of Actual control ..



https://guardingindia.com/featured/excl ... ainladakh/

acc to this site flashpoint is in Shenpao mountain

PLA armed with primitive weapons like Galwan sneaked towards Shenpao mountain where 30-40 IA soldiers were holding. IA fired warning shot in the air and the other side beat retreat

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Sep 2020 02:43

g.sarkar wrote:https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-news/foreign-minister-wang-yi-reaching-moscow-to-discuss-total-disengagement-in-ladakh-with-jaishankar/story-K9rfl23TUR8Yu7tO4CPuIM.html
China’s foreign minister Wang Yi reaching Moscow to discuss total disengagement in Ladakh with Jaishankar
The much awaited meeting of foreign ministers is expected to record a forward movement towards complete disengagement and de-escalation of People’s Liberation Army.
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi, Sep 07, 2020

With Chinese State Councillor and foreign minister Wang Yi confirming his arrival in Moscow on Wednesday evening, the bilateral meeting with Indian External Affairs Minister S Jaishankar to discuss ways and means to resolve the present Ladakh standoff is confirmed on September 10. The two leaders are meeting on the sidelines of Shanghai Cooperation Organisation (SCO) ministerial hosted by Russian Federation. The time of the meeting is being finalised.
While EAM Jaishankar will arrive in Moscow on Tuesday evening with desk officers of China division, Foreign minister Wang will reach the next day to discuss the border escalation in Ladakh. The much awaited meeting of foreign ministers is expected to record a forward movement towards complete disengagement and de-escalation of People’s Liberation Army (PLA) with the Indian side insistent upon China to follow bilateral agreements and protocols since 1993.
Although Indian Defence Minister Rajnath Singh met his Chinese counterpart Gen Wei Fenghe on the same platform on September 5, but the talks did not yield any result with both sides merely stating their formal positions. The meeting took place after Indian Army troops pre-empted a PLA aggression on south of Pangong Tso on August 29-30 and occupied the Rezang La ridgeline without either yielding to Chinese show of military strength or allowing them to cross the Indian perception of Line of Actual Control (LAC).
....
Gautam


The MEA must be cautious. The Russians are not to be trusted in this matter as the Chinese have most likely bribed them and are playing both sides. The Indian Embassy may have been bugged and any internal discussions will most likely be surveilled.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby williams » 08 Sep 2020 02:52

IndraD wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-china-standoff-firing-takes-place-on-lac-in-eastern-ladakh/articleshow/77987596.cms
LADAKH: An incident of firing took place on the Line of Actual control ..



https://guardingindia.com/featured/excl ... ainladakh/

acc to this site flashpoint is in Shenpao mountain

PLA armed with primitive weapons like Galwan sneaked towards Shenpao mountain where 30-40 IA soldiers were holding. IA fired warning shot in the air and the other side beat retreat


Good to know IA rules of engagement changes are operational now. It looks like warning shot followed by full engagement is the new normal. It is also interesting that Chins dont know the full extent of IA manuevers last week. Slowly I am seeing DM, MEA, PMO and our forces working in synergy to give it back to Chins.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Vips » 08 Sep 2020 03:01

Shingo La project: Centre plans Zojila-like tunnel to Ladakh region.

Soon after awarding the Zojila tunnel project, the road transport and highways ministry has started discussions with the defence ministry to build another such all-weather connectivity to the Ladakh region — this time, via Shingo La or Shinkula mountain pass in Himachal Pradesh.

The two departments are in preliminary talks to build a tunnel that would reduce the travel time to the Ladakh region by 15-20 per cent and would come up close to the Atal tunnel near Rohtang Pass.

Atal tunnel — connecting Manali in Himachal Pradesh with Leh, Ladakh, and Jammu & Kashmir — was re-christened in December to commemorate the 95th birth anniversary of former Prime Minister Atal Bihari Vajpayee. Prime Minister Narendra Modi is expected to inaugurate the tunnel shortly.

The cost of the proposed Shingo La tunnel project is expected to be similar to that of the recently awarded Zojila tunnel project.

In August, Hyderabad-based Megha Engineering and Infrastructure emerged the lowest bidder for executing the Zojila tunnel project with a quote of ~4,509.50 crore. Larsen & Toubro and IRCON International JV were the other two contenders for the project.

The project is of strategic importance as Zojila Pass is situated at an altitude of 11,578 feet on the Srinagar-kargil-leh National Highway and remains shut during winters due to heavy snowfall. The

National Highways and Infrastructure Development Corporation (NHIDCL) in June had invited fresh bids for the project and the project was awarded in less than three months to the lowest bidder.

The work on Zojila project is expected to begin next month. NHIDCL, an arm of road ministry, is engaged in the execution of road projects in the hilly terrain. It has awarded several such tunnel projects in Himachal Pradesh and Jammu & Kashmir.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby hanumadu » 08 Sep 2020 03:14

Saurav Jha
@SJha1618
So,
@delhidefence
's analysts have put together this rough estimate of Chinese positions around the Spanggur Tso area using commercially available imagery (but marked on Google Earth). The yellow dots to the West are the ones that have been in contestation of late.


Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Mort Walker » 08 Sep 2020 03:48

From Saurav Jha:

The PLAGF can't just keep stuffing troops in the Pangong Tso- Spanggur Tso area. There just isn't enough room. They already have a division equivalent there.


That means there are at least 10,000 troops between Spanggur Tso and Pangong Tso and the supply route is China S301 that connects to China G219. Their power and water, from seeing some of the Chinese videos appear to be solar panels, and it is very likely they are filtering and purifying the brackish lake water using commercial reverse osmosis units. The large facility at the western tip of Spanggur Tso is the most likely location. There also has to be some sort of ammo and fuel dumps too since the PLA are so far from Ngari Prefecture or even China G219. If that facility is knocked out or even destroyed, then it would force a PLA pull back or a full attack. In either case, the IA and IAF can handle this.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Philip » 08 Sep 2020 03:55

Arrogance and an unwillingness to accept reality pervades the turd brains of the Chinks. Their reply to our request for the return of the missing Ar.Pr. citizens was a direct snub,saying that there is no place called Ar.Pr.,only S.Tibet! We should return the compliment by saying that Tibet is an occupied country,and recognise the Tibetan govt. in exile,and tell them that in the Indo- China Sea ,their island grabbing is illegal.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Ashutosh Malik » 08 Sep 2020 04:03

SSridhar wrote:
Ashutosh Malik wrote:
India already has tourists going to our side of Pangong Tso for years. I was there 6 years ago. What are the Chinese doing differently?


It is Indian land, that's the difference. There seems to be already a sense of resignation that all that land held by China is lost and the only thing that we have to do is to protect whatever little we are left with.


There is no comparison. Pakistan didn't have physical control over the glacier, or even the Saltoro ridge. They were using tourism as a ruse to show control, leading to potential control.

China already has control over eastern part of Pangong Tso. For 50 years+ now. They don't need to do tourism to show control.

Whether we need to, or should have a war with China to get entire Aksai Chin etc. is one question. Whether we choose to ensure no further gobbling of real estate is the second question. As of now the GOI looks like has taken a decision that Chinese will not have a fait accompli anymore on gobbling more real estate. Whether you go back to Doklam, or now. Or even further back in Chumur in 2014 - ref this one by Ambassador Stobdan - https://idsa.in/idsacomments/NewGambles ... dan_250914

"The Chumur crisis relates to China’s strong objection to the erection of a hut at Tible. But the NDA government is unwilling to repeat UPA’s ambiguity in dealing with repeated Chinese intrusions. All these years, China drew the red-line but this time India upped the ante by sending a tough message that it would not dismantle its fortified positions. Having been used to browbeat the Indian army in the past, the PLA may have been surprised by India's swift counter build-up and firmness at the commander’s flag meetings."

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby williams » 08 Sep 2020 05:10

It is funny when they say IA crossed the LAC when they never published their perspective of the LAC.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Raveen » 08 Sep 2020 05:41

williams wrote:It is funny when they say IA crossed the LAC when they never published their perspective of the LAC.


True, because their perspective of their borders is always about a couple of miles behind where their neighbor's troops are positioned - helps to keep things fluid given this stance. :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby raja_m » 08 Sep 2020 06:27

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor


BREAKING: There’s been an incident of firing between troops of India & China along the LAC in eastern Ladakh, reports
quoting govt sources, who say the situation has been brought under control. (Possibly warning shots both sides, details awaited)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby schinnas » 08 Sep 2020 08:25

IndraD wrote:https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/india/india-china-standoff-firing-takes-place-on-lac-in-eastern-ladakh/articleshow/77987596.cms
LADAKH: An incident of firing took place on the Line of Actual control ..



https://guardingindia.com/featured/excl ... ainladakh/

acc to this site flashpoint is in Shenpao mountain

PLA armed with primitive weapons like Galwan sneaked towards Shenpao mountain where 30-40 IA soldiers were holding. IA fired warning shot in the air and the other side beat retreat


There is no mountain there called Shenpao mountain. It's Cheen concoted name for an Indian hill. Not available in Google or even in Baidu search. Like @bennedose (Dr.Shiv) said on twitter, that whole mountain range should be called Ammitkutti range.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Roop » 08 Sep 2020 08:27

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:Tomorrow if the politicians in Congress realize that Nationalism is the only game in town ...


If they realized this they would not be in the Congress party. You are asking for the impossible.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby schinnas » 08 Sep 2020 08:33

Philip wrote:Arrogance and an unwillingness to accept reality pervades the turd brains of the Chinks. Their reply to our request for the return of the missing Ar.Pr. citizens was a direct snub,saying that there is no place called Ar.Pr.,only S.Tibet! We should return the compliment by saying that Tibet is an occupied country,and recognise the Tibetan govt. in exile,and tell them that in the Indo- China Sea ,their island grabbing is illegal.


If they insist on calling Arunachal Pradesh as Southern Tibet, we should call Tibet as north Himachal Pradesh and call out China's illegal occupation there. Enough with the cheen arrogance and expansionism.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby arshyam » 08 Sep 2020 09:02

Apparently, it's called the Mukhpari peak...

Indian Army Retaliates After China Opens Fire On Indian Positions Along LAC, Forces The Chinese To Retreat - Swarajya

As per senior defence journalist Nitin Gokhale, China tried to make an advance towards the Mukhpari peak occupied by India. Noticing the Chinese troops the Indian soldiers fired warning shots in the air which forced the PLA to retreat.

Gokhale adds that India now controls the entire ridgeline from South Bank of Pangong Tso to Richin La. India had earlier warned China on 30 August that it will open fire if China tries to come up on the Indian positions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby k prasad » 08 Sep 2020 09:14

schinnas wrote:If they insist on calling Arunachal Pradesh as Southern Tibet, we should call Tibet as north Himachal Pradesh and call out China's illegal occupation there. Enough with the cheen arrogance and expansionism.


Or just keep referring to it as the Indo-Tibetan border rather than the India-China border / India-China Line of Actual Control. That will be a start. And it'll have the added bonus of annoying the Chinese to no end, because they can't deny that the province is Tibet.

And we do the same around Depsang, and call it the India-Xinjiang border.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Thakur_B » 08 Sep 2020 09:16

Where is this mukhparii peak, cannot trace it on Gmaps.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 08 Sep 2020 09:25

Mukhpari peak came up in the old thread from an old report--->

viewtopic.php?f=3&t=7810&start=7720#p2457605

Reposting the link here--->
https://usiofindia.org/publication/usi- ... SM%20(Retd),-Introduction&text=Sino-Indian%20conflict%20of%201962,South%20East%20(Map%201)

Unfortunately, deployment was faulty at Chushul. Instead of holding the ridge line east of Chushul which was not held by Chinese at that time, we decided to hold the low ground of Maggar Hill, Gurung Hill and Rezang La. Two most important features which should have been held are Black Top and Mukhpari. By not holding these features we not only denied ourselves observation of Chinese buildup opposite Chushul but also allowed Chinese to roll down on our defences on the low ground. Troops at Gurung Hill, Magar Hill and Rezang La were, therefore, foredoomed.


So, the report mentions that we should have held it in 1962... Looks like we hold it now...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jarita » 08 Sep 2020 09:30

When one thinks of the fact that Kailasa is with these who have no respect for the sanctity of existence, I blame ourselves. Every waking moment, it should hurt us that we have not freed the abode of our devatas.
What has happened to our brains and minds? Our soldiers are doing the best they can but we are happy with the cheap goods and short term benefits at the cost of the abode of the gods. Every waking moment should be consumed with this desire. Without that energy and focus of the civilization, the armed forces can only take it so far.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Ankit Desai » 08 Sep 2020 09:37

k prasad wrote:deleted


swiftretort1 is a Pakistani twitter handle, may be ISPR sponsored. Usually uses Chinese maps.

-Ankit

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Sanju » 08 Sep 2020 09:38

It was the name of their ops on 27-Feb-2019. That name is a dead giveaway.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby k prasad » 08 Sep 2020 09:41

^^^ Good to know :-). Hopefully then the yellow bump at least is in our control. That would certainly mesh with Nitin Gokhale's note that we control the entire ridgeline.

Admin note: no more posting of ISPR crap without due diligence

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2020 10:05

^^
When news reports mentioned Black top then it HAD to be either Black top itself (if we crossed the LAC) or Bump (f we did not cross the LAC) that falls on the LAC as both are on the same east/west ridge section.

Our view from Bump is almost as good as that from the Black top to the north and the south. The Black top is higher by about 100m and hence would block our view directly to the east as also shield the Chinese camp at the base of Black top form direct fire from the Bump.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Deans » 08 Sep 2020 10:17

amar_p wrote:India's traditional posture is defensive. Our forces are not designed to be expeditionary forces. China very well knows that. And it also knows that defensive postures will not impose unacceptable costs on the aggressor.

What has it cost China to provoke India since May this year?

Military cost:
For a fraction of its annual defence budget spend, PLA has got a chance to test out its troops, equipment, tactics and logistics against what they know to be a stronger army, especially so in Ladhak region.

100+ PLA lives lost in Galwan - they have largely downplayed it, PLA might be rationalising it as the "cost of trying things out" or whatever excuse they can make up or tell CCP "we told you Indians are wild". Morale of the troops has surely taken a hit, but how does that matter when the punishment for ceding ground is death? Plump young pawn fed princes can be made to march on to their graves anyway.

Internal political cost:
CCP has more or less put a lid on it internally. Few WeChat outpourings about a bunch of graves don't really matter. If anything it helps identify dissident voices that need to be taken care of. Whatever is happening, is > 4000km away from Shanghai, Beijing, eastern sea board where China really lives. People's lives there are no way impacted. So for CCP, aal eez well, uh, mostly.

Economic cost:
What China has perhaps not factored in is India's economic retaliation, but given the trade imbalance, its little more than a pin prick. India banning tech & apps is a more serious consequence, with US further fanning the flames. But they seem to be confident that can absorb it. Tencent etc losing valuation is pinching, but it is pinching Amercian pension funds etc as well. Huawei was under attack by Trump anyways since much before. They seem to be confident they can deal with it.

Diplomatic cost:
With their habitual lying, propaganda, and having perfected the art of taking offence or feeling insulted only when they see the need for it, any diplomatic flak they get from India or EU or even US, is like rain on a buffalo. Wolf warriors will wipe off their faces and continue to sing the song.

Geopolitical cost:
India's rapprochement to US is increasing, QUAD is taking distinct military turn as well. If I were in Xitler's shoes, I'd be gloating about it. I'd take it as proof that China has indeed ARRIVED as a world power - so many countries have to gang up and put their heads and forces together to deal with China now. And nothing has happened since 5 months, Covid, US elections, Shinjo Abe's transition, summer coming soon to Australia which will mass migrate to beaches, and there will be more such distractions in the future for its distracted/courage-lacking adverseries. This surely stokes Xitler's ego, convinces he is right, and makes the whole game more interesting.

I agree with other posters that recent occupation of heights by IA is a locally tactically offensive but overall a defensive manoeuvre. It has made PLA pause and reconsider its options, this eagerness to talk must not be mistaken for any roll back intent, they are just buying time to reassess and try something different next.


Amar ji, I respectfully disagree as far as the cost to China is concerned. In my opinion the costs are:

1. China's cost to the defence budget will be high, if they have to permanently deploy a large force on the LAC and build infra for them.
In our case, most of our LAC oriented units are close to the LAC (e.g 3rd Infantry division in Leh). Our incremental cost is the cost of moving
a reserve mountain division (originally in the NE) to Ladakh and creating the infrastructure for that unit - which is something that would have
to be done in future anyway. Similarly, China's actions have fast-tracked our border roads building - rather than consider it a cost that China has
imposed on us, I would consider it a fast tracking of an investment we would have done anyway.

2. The economic cost to China is far more than any drop in imports by India. Banning apps has for e.g. led to a $ 15 billion drop in the valuation
of Tencent. Expect more such global costs as other big Chinese holding companies & funds are hit when a big market like India shows a reduced
appetite for their products. China's actions are also starting to create a bigger pushback against BRI projects. Conversely, a drop in imports from
China boost our own manufacturing base in the longer run, which has a multiplier effect when more foreign companies start making in India.

3. Politically it has helped us get a consensus that China is no friend and is fact it is China and not Pak that is our primary adversary. For a few
km of Pangong Tso shoreline, China has permanently lost India as a friend. The 3 biggest economies in the world facing off as: US+India vs. China
is a reality due to China's actions. The similarity of view by US+India (does not need to be a military alliance) on the Chinese threat is what will
energise the Quad and get other countries threatened by China, on our side. Sharing of bases under a quad agreement would mean that India
replicates China's string of pearls, at no cost (from the deterrent value of placing naval or air assets closer to Chinese sea routes, IF we want to)

4. Diplomatically, China has never been more isolated. Allies like Pak will learn that when Push comes to shove, China will not use force against us. Why then should Pak resort to their usual LOC firing /pushing in terrorists, to support China's salami slicing ? (which is why Pak army and Kashmir are relatively quiet now).
Last edited by Deans on 08 Sep 2020 10:18, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2020 10:17

Thakur_B wrote:Where is this mukhparii peak, cannot trace it on Gmaps.

My markings ....

33°30'3.59"N, 78°48'1.95"E

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby williams » 08 Sep 2020 10:21

So many attempts by the Chinese to climb up should tell us that we control the entire ridgeline. The other thing that was striking is why these guys were climbing with the same old primitive weapons. It seems the Chinese are hell bend not to escalate this into a shooting match. Are these even serious attempts, when they know IA will take potshots at them from the heights? So the whole deployment is just to browbeat us? Something is missing from the very beginning.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 08 Sep 2020 10:23

k prasad wrote:^^^ Good to know :-). Hopefully then the yellow bump at least is in our control. That would certainly mesh with Nitin Gokhale's note that we control the entire ridgeline.


Sir please check before posting - That twitter handle is handled by ISPR, on BRF do want be serving GHQ Rawalpindi propaganda and wasting Bandwidth?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby k prasad » 08 Sep 2020 10:25

pankajs wrote:^^
Our view from Bump is almost as good as that from the Black top to the north and the south. The Black top is higher by about 100m and hence would block our view directly to the east as also shield the Chinese camp at the base of Black top form direct fire from the Bump.

If we are on the bump, then great, although I'd hope we also hold Black Top. As you said, with the bump, we get a great view into Spanggur and Pangong, but it'd be even better with Black Top, AND the chinese wouldn't be able to get a good view of the Chushul sector. Of course, all of that assumes we're holding the Yellow Bump.

williams wrote:So many attempts by the Chinese to climb up should tell us that we control the entire ridgeline. The other thing that was striking is why these guys were climbing with the same old primitive weapons.

Its not clear that they were climbing per se, williams, although it is possible they were trying to approach from another axis rather than from black top directly. In any case, it's great if we're holding the entire ridgeline in strength. Next step is to use that ridgeline and start pushing up to the Chinese road head, and capture the bowl thats formed between Thakung and the ridgelines leading from Helmet top to Pangong.

As for the clubs, at this time, I'm more worried if they came with clubs rather than guns, because that indicates a higher will to violence... it means they were coming to the position with the aim of physically removing us. The warning shots must've pushed them back... for now. The question is what they'll do next? Decide not to escalate and try sneaky tactics, or instead escalate with firearms next time?

Aditya_V wrote:Sir please check before posting - That twitter handle is handled by ISPR, on BRF do want be serving GHQ Rawalpindi propaganda and wasting Bandwidth?

Haha. Agreed sir. To be fair, the very reason I linked that tweet rather than shared the image was because my map was drawn from multiple sources, and that source accounted only for 2 of the points.The rest were drawn from Indian sources, news, sat images, extrapolating from maps (which look like they are IA maps), etc.
Last edited by hnair on 08 Sep 2020 10:44, edited 2 times in total.

pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2020 10:29

arshyam wrote:Apparently, it's called the Mukhpari peak...

Indian Army Retaliates After China Opens Fire On Indian Positions Along LAC, Forces The Chinese To Retreat - Swarajya

As per senior defence journalist Nitin Gokhale, China tried to make an advance towards the Mukhpari peak occupied by India. Noticing the Chinese troops the Indian soldiers fired warning shots in the air which forced the PLA to retreat.

Gokhale adds that India now controls the entire ridgeline from South Bank of Pangong Tso to Richin La. India had earlier warned China on 30 August that it will open fire if China tries to come up on the Indian positions.

So we have occupied all the heights that dominate the major Lumpas/valley floors in the area! Not bad. Not only are we sitting on all the passes that provide easy routes to the Indian side, we also keep the flat area(s) that could be used to assemble a counter attacking force under 24x7 observation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 08 Sep 2020 10:40

For reference ..

https://twitter.com/NewsLineIFE/status/ ... 8689131521
#BreakingNews: New Map of #China rocket force is out!
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 08 Sep 2020 10:46

k prasad, you got an outstanding warning and another one issues today. Time Off for 2 Weeks

All: ISPR linking is not ok and will result in action

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 08 Sep 2020 11:02

https://www.bbc.com/news/world-asia-china-54067400
China says Indian troops fired 'provocative' shots in border dispute
8/9/2020

China has accused Indian troops of illegally crossing a disputed border and firing "provocative" warning shots at patrolling soldiers.
Chinese guards were "forced to take countermeasures", said a military spokesperson, though it is not clear what they were.
It would be the first time in 45 years that shots were fired there, breaking an agreement barring firearm use.
Relations between both countries have steadily deteriorated in recent months.
According to state media outlet the Global Times, the Indian troops had "illegally crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC) into the Shenpao mountain region near the south bank of Pangong Tso Lake", quoting senior colonel Zhang Shuili, a spokesperson of the People's Liberation Army.
India's move "seriously violated related agreements reached by both sides, stirred up tensions in the region... and is very vile in nature," said Mr Zhang.
The Indian authorities have yet to respond.
A 1996 agreement between both countries bars the use of guns and explosives from the Line of Actual Control, as the disputed border is known, although soldiers have clashed there before.
.....
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 08 Sep 2020 11:08

Ashutosh Malik wrote:There is no comparison. Pakistan didn't have physical control over the glacier, or even the Saltoro ridge. They were using tourism as a ruse to show control, leading to potential control.

China already has control over eastern part of Pangong Tso. For 50 years+ now. They don't need to do tourism to show control.

What is this hair-splitting argument about physical control etc ? Arunachal Pradesh is under our physical control for more than 50 years+ now and yet, China doesn't tire of warning whenever our PM or DM or EAM or anybody else of significance or the Dalai Lama or the US Ambassador visits that place. Now, PLAGF abducts 5 Indians and claims they have not abducted 'Indians'. Why should we put nuanced argument about control and potential-control etc?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020- Part 2

Postby Mukhi » 08 Sep 2020 11:18

Deans wrote:
amar_p wrote:India's traditional posture is defensive. Our ....... to support China's salami slicing ? (which is why Pak army and Kashmir are relatively quiet now).



To add to this, if I may,

Let us explore the NaMo factor. If we assume, that this crises will come to pass without going into a declared war, Then one thing is for sure. NaMo had two option when it came to China when he became PM 6 years ago. Either take China as enemy and prepare for all Eventualities or try a friendship rout. Now, at that time, the way SOMeGa inspired, RaGa Lead MMS Government left our armed forces into ruin state, and NaMo being a Bania, the friendship rout was the best optIon. Also, if one observed NaMo closely, at least publicly, NaMo seemd somewhat delusional about the possibilities of war in Morden world. He stated as such on many occasions that wars are a thing of a past. NaMo went out of his way to become friend with China.

Now with this episode, NaMo has woken up to the reality of war with China, if not today, then down the rode. And this is where the real cost will start for China. He will get India to a place where fighting a 2 front war and winning is a much stronger probability then what mite be today.

The war on China will be in all direction, From taking Business away to, Other than NK and NaPak, taking the proxies away thru diplomatic channels, Building strong defense research and manufacturing base in India, etc. This is where his Atma Nirbhar Bharat comes in.

JM2C

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby gunnvant » 08 Sep 2020 11:20


Prem Kumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 08 Sep 2020 11:25

Agree with SSridhar.

At a minimum, we should abandon acknowledgement of the One China policy. Logically, even without Tibet/Taiwan, why would we acknowledge this policy when they have been holding our territory for decades?

The One China policy (especially when they don't demarcate their borders) is a sneaky thing. It means that anyone who agrees to it, agrees that whatever land China considers as part of its territory automatically becomes part of "One China" and is hence undisputed. However, what constitutes "Chinese territory" is purposely left fluid.

One China policy is a vague abstraction, not a real thing. And in diplomacy, we cannot agree to vague abstractions

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 08 Sep 2020 11:26

g.sarkar wrote:China has accused Indian troops of illegally crossing a disputed border and firing "provocative" warning shots at patrolling soldiers.
Chinese guards were "forced to take countermeasures", said a military spokesperson, though it is not clear what they were.
It would be the first time in 45 years that shots were fired there, breaking an agreement barring firearm use.
Relations between both countries have steadily deteriorated in recent months.
According to state media outlet the Global Times, the Indian troops had "illegally crossed the Line of Actual Control (LAC) into the Shenpao mountain region near the south bank of Pangong Tso Lake", quoting senior colonel Zhang Shuili, a spokesperson of the People's Liberation Army.
.....
Gautam


The Pakis show more spine than this in their infiltration and cross border firing. They might be wondering why they need to do the firing and dying
when the PLA retreats (from strategically important heights that they allowed to fall into enemy hands) after mere warning shots.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 08 Sep 2020 11:40

pankajs wrote:
Thakur_B wrote:Where is this mukhparii peak, cannot trace it on Gmaps.

My markings ....

33°30'3.59"N, 78°48'1.95"E

Is that not Maggar hill?

Added: ok From twitter:
Girish Mithran
@GirishMithran

Found this map in a book called ‘Trishul - Ladakh and Kargil 1947-1993’ by Ashok Malhotra. The circle on the left marked by you seems to be Mukhpari
Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sajaym » 08 Sep 2020 11:49

I'm frequently seeing TV channels gushing about the SFF. All credit to the SFF, but what people are not realizing is that the SFF is nothing but the Indian equivalent of the mujahideen or similar to the Mukti Bahini/LTTE. The only difference is that while Pakis train their 'freedom fighters' to terrorist level standards, India trains it's 'freedom fighters' to Indian Army level standards -- and that little difference is what brings about deadly results!


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