India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Cain Marko
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cain Marko »

Maybe, just maybe, the long kungfoo spears are just a feint. They'll actually come with things far more substantial? Surely no one expects them to make much headway with those long blades?
nam
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nam »

The western media guys have been screaming "India tests hypersonic weapon, as tension with China escalated"!

Sounds so TFTA! a honor everyone would have expected would be for US & NATO countries :rotfl:

I don't think many expected China getting in a fight with " poor country India" and we flying around hypersonics..
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

<Fr> Le soldat chinois est arrivé avec sa bite et son couteau ! Gare à vous !! </Fr>
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by VikramA »

twitter is abuzz that PLA tried to land at Finger 2 last night via boats but got chased away
Larry Walker
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

VikramA wrote:twitter is abuzz that PLA tried to land at Finger 2 last night via boats but got chased away
SJha was also tweeting that last night firing happened at Finger2 area - I earlier assumed he is just smoking stuff as how come Chinese bypass F4/F3 defences and come to F2 - but maybe this tweet makes sense now.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by parshuram »

They were probing if it was just one boat . With all eyes on South Pangong . There is absolute radio silence on what is going in Depsang -DBO sector . That is where we are vulernable IMO
Last edited by parshuram on 09 Sep 2020 00:19, edited 1 time in total.
Anujan
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anujan »

SidSoma wrote:[youtube]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=egEL_9hNdZ8[/youtube]

Abhijeet Iyer Mitra claims that IA has landmined the route to the heights that is being currently occupied by them. This will ensure that the heights can be vacated during winters without the chinese moving in easily.
Can't trust the chair marshal on this. Landmines are prohibited in LAC fwiw. Mining would be a serious escalation. We still seem to be in curtain rod phase now. (apart from sporadic firing in the air)

I know some of you might come back with "but all agreements have been broken!!". Yes thats true. But at least mostly adhered to. Includes not shooting large-scale.

(Can't resist sorry). Confucius say: He who goes to a gunfight with a stick, is eventually going to Bangkok.
nishant.gupta
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nishant.gupta »

Kakarat wrote: Image
Aren't most of these guys carrying guns? I can make out at least 5 of them having them clearly. Possibly the long poles are to help them get back home safely in case they find some gnomes and other wild haunted magical things...
Cyrano
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Next statement from Indian spokesperson : China's PLA has shown another level of irresponsibility by deploying stand off weapons. India has taken appropriate counter measures without crossing our LAC.

After several pages of speculation on BRF, a trusted Baba's tweet reveals that IA used lassos to grab these long handled stand off weapons and has now confiscated most of them.

Later in the day, WION reports that some PLA soldiers have refused to leave and staged a crying dharna in front of IA positions, begging the IA soldiers to either give back their broom sticks or take them prisoner because if they return without their weapons, their pinky bums will be flogged red and denied burnol.
Last edited by Cyrano on 09 Sep 2020 00:38, edited 1 time in total.
Jay
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Jay »

nishant.gupta wrote:
Kakarat wrote: Image
Aren't most of these guys carrying guns? I can make out at least 5 of them having them clearly. Possibly the long poles are to help them get back home safely in case they find some gnomes and other wild haunted magical things...
All jokes aside, Chinese soldiers showing up with their combat weapons shows their intent to take full advantage of the rules in place. Since firing weapons was not allowed, both side resorted to shoving and using batons in the past. China then upped the ante by using these make shift medieval weapons to gain advantage and draw blood. I hope we are also taking similar action and reinforcing our weaponry. If China and us want to stick to "no guns" policy, fine. Let's show up with a crossbow and few titanium tipper arrows. If it can go though a 10-pointer buck it can surely pierce a chini helmet and we get to stick to the "look ma, no guns onlee" policy. Let us take inspiration from the Gandiva bow.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Mort Walker »

Can we leave that speculation about the picture behind? It is likely pre-Galwan according to Gokhale. If the PLA doesn't have competent personnel in place, it soon will as the situation is becoming more serious. It is better to assume they are competent.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SidSoma »

Mort Walker wrote:Can we leave that speculation about the picture behind? It is likely pre-Galwan according to Gokhale. If the PLA doesn't have competent personnel in place, it soon will as the situation is becoming more serious. It is better to assume they are competent.
1. Gokhale has said that he may be wrong in a subsequent tweet

2. I highly doubt that this is pre Galwan. If the Chinks had ever appeared with these kind of weapons, I highly doubt that Col Babu would have gone with a handful of men to a chinese camp without the orders to shoot up or equivalent arms.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Mort Walker »

Just assume they are competent.
sooraj
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sooraj »

@MeghUpdates
·
3h
INPUT : Heated Exchange of Words during Brigadier level Hotline talks today
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chanakyaa »

abhik wrote:As per Shiv Aroor the Chinese side's excuse (via the Brig. level talks) for carrying the stick knife thingee is about some martial tradition of the soldiers :lol:. ..
Not that it means anything here :wink:, but it is called Da Dao or Podao. Perhaps a theatre put together for home audience.
The Big Knife (Da Dao) is an iconic weapon that even today regularly appears in popular culture outlets such as TV drama series, movies, books, mail stamps, monuments, toys and even graphic novels available for the general public in China. It serves as a stark reminder of national resistance against Japanese aggression in WW2 and an instrument to instill nationalism even in recent years.
https://zhongguowuxue.com/2017/12/23/th ... nd-terror/
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chola »

^^^ These guan dao things with long slicing blades are more dangerous than the spiked rods used on 16 Bihar. High possibility that they switched to these after taking casualities in that melee. These are more effective standoff (in melee terms) compared to clubs. To me they signal that the chinis want to keep things from going full kinetic but at the same time are chickensh!t of close-in hand-to-hand combat.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by abhik »

Larry Walker wrote:
VikramA wrote:twitter is abuzz that PLA tried to land at Finger 2 last night via boats but got chased away
SJha was also tweeting that last night firing happened at Finger2 area - I earlier assumed he is just smoking stuff as how come Chinese bypass F4/F3 defences and come to F2 - but maybe this tweet makes sense now.
Finger 2 to 6 are part of the same ridge feature towards to the top, I believe the PLA would have set up a post here too (not covered in the sat phots that came out a few months ago but would make sense. Google Earth link: https://earth.google.com/web/@33.769390 ... 085066t,0r

Although some adventures using boats are possible since they have quite a few (over a dozen) large boats in the region, and could have bought in more in the paste few months. They can use the boats to move company sized troops to different points of the lake. Hope we have gamed this and have come up with ways to take the boats out as soon as they any thing (or even better in their moorings).
Lisa
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Lisa »

For those who do not know or remember what bravery in the chinese army looks like.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nangpa_La ... 20injuries.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CgadUdNcRZU
hnair
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by hnair »

Jay wrote: All jokes aside, Chinese soldiers showing up with their combat weapons shows their intent to take full advantage of the rules in place. Since firing weapons was not allowed, both side resorted to shoving and using batons in the past. China then upped the ante by using these make shift medieval weapons to gain advantage and draw blood. I hope we are also taking similar action and reinforcing our weaponry. If China and us want to stick to "no guns" policy, fine. Let's show up with a crossbow and few titanium tipper arrows. If it can go though a 10-pointer buck it can surely pierce a chini helmet and we get to stick to the "look ma, no guns onlee" policy. Let us take inspiration from the Gandiva bow.
You say "all jokes aside" and then go on to make joke after joke, putting us, poor BENIS grads out of jobs

1) Spear is most effective in two combat situations outside a phalanx or fixed defense: 1-to-many individual combat and a squad against mounted/cavalry. The first situation is what seemed to be the situation up in the hills. But when done as a squad, this situation need lots of co-ordination and double weapon-length spacing between your squad and yourself. Else you risk hurting your own guys and having your range of motion crammed in to your disadvantage. Now, here, we see these bozos standing cheek-by-jowl like a kindergarten field-trip.

(same reason why a proper samurai has a katana and wazikashi, since using a katana indoors leaves one with greatly reduced range of motion in crammed places. Kalari has Churika for indoor or space constrained situations. Without momentum generated from full range of motion, bones or skulls cant be cut through)

2) If you train with a spear (around here, we call it kuntha-payatt), you will know that the basic diameter of a bespoke spear shaft for maximum grip strength is atleast two-finger diameter to two-and-half finger diameter. That is the same in Indian as well as East-asian or European spear fighting. Else you waste a lot of energy and joint strength in gripping the thin shaft, while absorbing lot more shock in the finger joints. I have seen smaller diameter flexible shafts used in only demos for getting visual effects onstage. Xitler Sooths seem to believe sheet metal welded on to quarter inch stainless steel pipes is going to survive the first parry.

3) For decades, the law of the hills was either bare-hands or guns. Chinese violated that rule by going with a third-option and now it is guns that IA will be using. Not hunting crossbows. Most definitely not curtain rods. We have enough clowning parity at Wagah and should not fall for it in Pangong Tso.

So why would the chinese go on this route other than as a show to their public, when they know it is not business as usual with IA after the recent deaths?
chola wrote:^^^ These guan dao things with long slicing blades are more dangerous than the spiked rods used on 16 Bihar. High possibility that they switched to these after taking casualities in that melee. These are more effective standoff (in melee terms) compared to clubs. To me they signal that the chinis want to keep things from going full kinetic but at the same time are chickensh!t of close-in hand-to-hand combat.
um, sure!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by AdityaM »

sooraj wrote:@MeghUpdates
·
3h
INPUT : Heated Exchange of Words during Brigadier level Hotline talks today
How do you have a heated exchange if neither speaks each others language and uses a translator as a go between.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Jay »

If you train with a spear (around here, we call it kuntha-payatt), you will know that the basic diameter of a bespoke spear shaft for maximum grip strength is atleast two-finger diameter to two-and-half finger diameter.
Nair ji, unfortunately I do not belong to a "TFTA martial race" to grasp on technicalities of a weapon.
For decades, the law of the hills was either bare-hands or guns. Chinese violated that rule by going with a third-option and now it is guns that IA will be using. Not hunting crossbows. Most definitely not curtain rods. We have enough clowning parity at Wagah and should not fall for it in Pangong Tso.
I hope that is the case, but since 2019 there have been two occasions where we stuck to ROE and had to incur some losses. May be I'm wrong in thinking that India will stick to ROE and not use guns. I hope I am.

So why would the chinese go on this route other than as a show to their public, when they know it is not business as usual with IA after the recent deaths?
Not sure why the Chinese did it. Also, I thought that picture of those savages with those spear/blade kind of weapons was put out by us as it's a desi twitter account where I first saw it.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Bart S »

SSridhar wrote:
The above were all editorials in Global Times in 2017. I think they cut-and-paste every time.
Same modus-operandi as ISPR, regurgitating the same 'talking points' that somebody prepares and circulates.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by RCase »

nishant.gupta wrote:
Kakarat wrote: Image
Aren't most of these guys carrying guns? I can make out at least 5 of them having them clearly. Possibly the long poles are to help them get back home safely in case they find some gnomes and other wild haunted magical things...
Sulplise! Tlick or Tleat!
What? It is not Halloween yet? Damn, our (chinese) clocks are off by a month.
We Gandus came dressed up carrying Guandaos for the palty.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by hnair »

Jay wrote: Nair ji, unfortunately I do not belong to a "TFTA martial race" to grasp on technicalities of a weapon.
But it did not prevent you from giving out advice about lugging a crossbow along with current equipment by troops battling HAPE and fatigue, did it?
Last edited by suryag on 09 Sep 2020 04:14, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: personal references deleted
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vips »

The Noodle eaters should know that Kungfu movies are not for real. Indians Jawans should carry Taser guns, tase these lizards from a stand off distance and then break their spines.

One of the chinkos carrying a spear also has a gun on his shoulder so on second thoughts i think we should just put the newly acquired stock of Sigs and Negev's to good use.
Last edited by Vips on 09 Sep 2020 03:34, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nachiket »

Vips wrote:The Noodle eaters should know that Kungfu movies are not for real. Indians Jawans should carry Taser guns, tase these lizards from a stand off distance and then break their spine.

One of the chinkos carrying a spear also has a gun on his shoulder so on second thoughts i think we should just put the newly acquired stock of Sigs and Negev's to good use.
What's the point of occupying the high ground if you can't use it to fire on the enemy trying to climb up to dislodge you? No more of this nonsense should be tolerated. We need to put an end to this farce of the Chinese making a mockery of the agreement not to use firearms. If they come too close they receive warning shots. If they don't stop they get fired upon. No more rocks and spiked clubs and spears. Tasers make even less sense. Why use non-lethal weapons when the enemy clearly intends to impale you with a spear or bash your head in with a spiked maul?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nachiket »

The decision to occupy and defend a particular position is taken based on the tactical and logistical realities in that location at that time. But once it is determined that a position can be and should be manned and defended, we need to do it with every weapon we have. Enough of kung-fu.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by CRamS »

Guys, sorry if this is a re-post (I checked a few post above so as to not clutter), but sharing some interesting views. First is Cols. Kulkarni, Col. Crooklaw, another decorated general, and a bunch of reporters on Rahul Kanwal show

https://youtu.be/Yan6ubYg4LY

Then there is Brahma Chellaney's take on WION

https://www.wionews.com/videos/india-in ... ake-325910

My thoughts:

1. While Col. Kulkarni is certainly not advocating war, I feel he a bit overly optimistic when he says Chincoms can do nothing at the south bank.

2. As per Crooklaw, and he wants war no doubt because then he knows he and his Pappu can blame the mess on ModiJi, but he does make some good points in that Chincoms dominate elsewhere and hence they won't limit any conflict to areas where India dominates

3. As always, the Brahma Chellaney exposes Chincom perfidy on their overall treachery, his extreme hawkishness notwithstanding

4. But Rahul Kanwal does ask the right question in that knowing Indians are dominating the heights, WTF are Chincoms trying to achieve by pushing men up the heights? A logical explanation is that they want India to fire the first shots and then unleash hostilities all over the place.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nachiket »

CRamS wrote: 4. But Rahul Kanwal does ask the right question in that knowing Indians are dominating the heights, WTF are Chincoms trying to achieve by pushing men up the heights? A logical explanation is that they want India to fire the first shots and then unleash hostilities all over the place.
But they have now claimed that we did fire shots, which we have denied. If that is the casus belli they were waiting for, they already have it, as per their own statement.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chola »

hnair wrote:
chola wrote:^^^ These guan dao things with long slicing blades are more dangerous than the spiked rods used on 16 Bihar. High possibility that they switched to these after taking casualities in that melee. These are more effective standoff (in melee terms) compared to clubs. To me they signal that the chinis want to keep things from going full kinetic but at the same time are chickensh!t of close-in hand-to-hand combat.
um, sure!
So why do you think they went with a medieval polearm? Why carry that thing around when they can just use their rifles? Obviously, they want to keep things from tipping into general shooting.

Ok. Why these things? Why not just clubs? Easier to make and carry around. They used bludgeoning weapons against 16 Bihar.

My theory is they had to come in close to use clubs and took casualties.

These polearms allow them to strike at a distance greater than the clubs, no? They could thrust or chop down if they are massed and swing in an arc if they were separated. Against someone armed only with his fists, a club or a knife, this thing allows you much greater reach. Not saying this thing is effective against someone rushing in at speed with a knife or even a rock. I can see that once someone gets inside the blade, the guan dao wielder will be in bad shape. But I think they are using this pokearm because they are scared stiff of actual hand-to-hand combat and the length of the thing is meant to stiffen their resolve.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Col Kulkarni is right.
Rest are hog wash.

also guys dont nukkadify the thread.

Lots of good people visit.
Ausualy 0ver 100 guests
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ramana »

Chola, I too think that in hand to hand combat PLA was found wanting.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by CRamS »

nachiket wrote:
CRamS wrote:
But they have now claimed that we did fire shots, which we have denied. If that is the casus belli they were waiting for, they already have it, as per their own statement.
Yes, with no casualties, India could have fired warning shots. But to speculate further, Chincoms may continue to probe forcing India to fire real shots at their advancing troops. Very volatile situation no doubt.

No need to post, but like when there is kinetic action between India & TSP, western frauds sit back and watch the 'fun' (from their vantage point that is) all the while claiming otherwise, likewise, just follow the twitter lines of arse holes like Christopher Clary, Vinpin Narang etc; they also seem to suggest things are inching closer to some form of kinetic action.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by nachiket »

CRamS, everything statement we get from the Chinese is propaganda. If they really want to start a war, why do they need to wait for us to actually do anything? They can merely claim we did it and their state media will report that as the truth. Who would they be trying to convince? Their own people will only see their state media propaganda. Nobody outside of China is in a mood to believe anything that they say except the pakis.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

Rishirishi wrote:
We must warn India seriously: You have crossed the line! Your frontline troops have crossed the line! Your nationalist public opinion has crossed the line! Your policy toward China has crossed the line! You are over-confidently provoking the PLA and Chinese people - this is like doing a handstand on the edge of a cliff!

Nationalist forces in India should think twice that if the Chinese and Indian armies change their agreement of handling friction along the border area to prioritize the use of gun, then what use of them seizing two commanding heights on the south bank of Pangong Tso Lake? Does commanding height make sense in modern military conflict? Between Indian and China, which country has more weaponry and which country has bigger military budget, can't Indians count out?

China doesn't want a border war with India. But if the Indian side misinterprets China's goodwill and intends to deter the PLA with warning shots, its moves will backfire. China will never concede for the sake of avoiding a war. If India's frontline troops continue to fire shots recklessly, they must be prepared for the consequences of breaking the rule in the first place - they could be eliminated immediately in case of military conflicts
...
I blame BRF and specifically Dr. Shiv for the Great Han Race humiliating itself in this pathetic manner. Obviously CCP spies read BRF and learned that “dhoti-shivering” is a thing they can cause in Indians by scolding India like a termagant.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

sajaym wrote:I'm frequently seeing TV channels gushing about the SFF. All credit to the SFF, but what people are not realizing is that the SFF is nothing but the Indian equivalent of the mujahideen or similar to the Mukti Bahini/LTTE. The only difference is that while Pakis train their 'freedom fighters' to terrorist level standards, India trains it's 'freedom fighters' to Indian Army level standards -- and that little difference is what brings about deadly results!
It’s like saying, tigers have four legs, rats also have four legs, so tigers are nothing but rats, ok maybe be bigger & stronger, but still rats onlee.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

this whole waiting for 1st shots from India is silly to me. As suggested, they can always make up stuff and go kinetic if they want. The reality seems to be - they dont want to go kinetic and are probing for weak spots...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

manjgu wrote:
Kakarat wrote:
Yes hill top positions can be targeted but difficult, India did it in Kargil and have experience

the best option is direct fire but chinese dont have space for that in many spots
In1962 our arty could not crest the ridge line at rezang.la though thats not an issue with todays arty...the pla though is just 100 mts from our position on mukhpari ....
do they have tech like fly a drone up to laser paint the hill top and then guide the artillery? I guess if they had that, they would not be coming up the hill with spears...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

V_Raman wrote:
manjgu wrote:
In1962 our arty could not crest the ridge line at rezang.la though thats not an issue with todays arty...the pla though is just 100 mts from our position on mukhpari ....
do they have tech like fly a drone up to laser paint the hill top and then guide the artillery? I guess if they had anything like that, they would not be coming up the hill with spears...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by KLNMurthy »

amar_p wrote:Next statement from Indian spokesperson : China's PLA has shown another level of irresponsibility by deploying stand off weapons. India has taken appropriate counter measures without crossing our LAC.

After several pages of speculation on BRF, a trusted Baba's tweet reveals that IA used lassos to grab these long handled stand off weapons and has now confiscated most of them.

Later in the day, WION reports that some PLA soldiers have refused to leave and staged a crying dharna in front of IA positions, begging the IA soldiers to either give back their broom sticks or take them prisoner because if they return without their weapons, their pinky bums will be flogged red and denied burnol.
Is there a sugary-sweet BENIS dhaga yet?
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