India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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pankajs
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 09 Sep 2020 13:12

williams wrote:The problem for India is that any military operation that has the theme of pushing the Chinese to a certain line of control legitimizes that line. If there is a shooting war, India needs to maximize its position so that there is a negotiated settlement of the border. So the goal of any kind of military operation should be a final settlement of the border. Defining that maximalist position is going be a tough problem.

Now the mood around the world is a lot of anger with the Chinese. So even if Biden wins, he needs to act tough on China. So diplomatically, this is the best time for India to opt for aggressive action. I think China knows that and that is why they are looking for small tactical gain without a shooting war.

1. India, by insisting for status quo on "LAC" during the past several months and since 1962 Indo-China war has been doing exactly what you are suggesting i.e. legitimizing the LAC.

Any military operation that reinforces that age old Indian stand will be more of the same. Nothing new.

2. Aiming for a "maximized position" would be to push for the whole of Aksai chin and that is not happening. Even during the current standoff including the latest "per-emptive" IA operation was about restoring the status quo as it existed before April/May 2020.

Therefore, the signals from GOI has been and still is for sanctity of the LAC only. While this round of standoff is not going to define the border is only going to harden the LAC and GOI knows this. Yet all it has shown is defensive intent.

3. On the last point, why would China initiate a salami slicing exactly when "this is the best time for India to opt for aggressive action". I think Chins had the exact reverse thought. From their POV, a COVID/Economically hit India was least likely to resist when they executed their latest salami slicing though from the looks of it it was planned earlier and in detail.

Finally, IFF the Chinese run away then probably we are going to take over Aksai Chin but I don't expect India to start pushing the Chinese away from the LAC this time barring a few give and take here or there to realign the LAC for better defense. Nothing that the GOI has said or done points to more than that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby UPrabhu » 09 Sep 2020 13:29

I think taking back GB is much more important than Aksai strategically . Also control over GB also hurts China equally

Hence GoI might only push for status quo on LAC for now. This is enough to call Chinese bluff and focus back on GB

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 09 Sep 2020 13:33

Faced with Prospect of 'Siachenised' LAC, Indian Army Prepares for Cold, Long Haul in Ladakh
Events have raised fears that both armies could find themselves locked into a cycle of mountain-grabs — followed by the commitment of troops to hold that territory. “The sensible thing to do will be for the PLA to swap its positions north of Pangong for those India has taken south of Pangong,” a senior Government official said. “But very little China has done since April has been sensible”. {Gurus,what is the meaning of this?}

The emergency effort to expand the Army’s stockpiles of extreme-weather tents, fibre-reinforced plastic igloos and specialised snow-boots are evidence that the Indian Army is preparing to have to maintain dozens of new high-altitude positions through the winter along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2020 13:39

Suraj wrote:Interesting high level visits indeed. I'm not sure the SFF thing is new to them. It's been around for decades after all. Of course, its use in frontline LAC role in a public manner is new.

No, I wasn't referring to SFF per se, a known fact. I was referring to the deployment. Obviously, SFF should have been involved in exercises closer to the border with their proud flag flying as a teaser to our fliends observing from across, before the events unfolded on 28/29.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 09 Sep 2020 13:40

India dominates China at 6 positions
The southern bank of the Pangong lake now dominated by Indian positions with Chinese positions in India's line of sight and fully vulnerable to Indian action. The Indian Army has moved to take dominant positions along the entire stretch in eastern Ladakh. Apart from the dominant positions in the Pangong South Bank, the Indian Army has readjusted its positions on the North Bank Fingers Complex, further north in hot springs and even at the restive Daulat Begh Oldi sector of northern Ladakh, a sector where China has provoked continuously, with a buildup and blockade of Indian patrol teams. Even south of the Pangong south bank, the Indian Army has strengthened its positions in Chumar. These actions make it more difficult for China to mount any aggressive actions and Chinese movements can be tracked easily in real-time.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dexter » 09 Sep 2020 13:42

Slightly OT, but can a technology like this help supply water to the troops on hill tops
https://www.maithriaqua.co.in/meghdoot-500/
Their extreme variants can be designed to work even in colder and dryer regions like high altitude

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 09 Sep 2020 13:43

Dilbu wrote:Faced with Prospect of 'Siachenised' LAC, Indian Army Prepares for Cold, Long Haul in Ladakh
Events have raised fears that both armies could find themselves locked into a cycle of mountain-grabs — followed by the commitment of troops to hold that territory. “The sensible thing to do will be for the PLA to swap its positions north of Pangong for those India has taken south of Pangong,” a senior Government official said. “But very little China has done since April has been sensible”. {Gurus,what is the meaning of this?}
Not a Guru, but this is exactly what I had pointed out in my previous post i.e. ALL of our words/actions till date have been for restoration of status quo.

Even IFFFFF we have taken over the Black top and the Helmet top, we are hardly a Sq km into the Chinese side of the LAC. We are willing to swap our newly held strategic position for the Chinese going back to pre April/May status i.e back to the base strategy.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 09 Sep 2020 13:51

Chulsul is a strategic entry point for both side. With out capture of the heights, we can now see them all the way. Infantry with ATGM can create havoc on incoming and mobilized armor. Any Chinese armor thrust won't be able to come in until the heights have been cleared or degraded.

On the other hand, because the Chinese cannot block the gap, due to the infantry on the heights, they have keep their asset bit behind. They can observe us using UAV, but would need a 24/7 flight, which will be shot down in the first minute of a fight. They have no observation in case Indian armor move towards their position.

This is the reason why Chinese are desperate for us to get down.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 09 Sep 2020 13:54

There are two elements if the balloon goes up, which will cause the most bang: Airpower and Chini BM.

We can mange BM by have a distributed supply locations and redundancies. How to protect against a BM attack on a runway? Just build more runways! Similarly more HAS if possible, lot of fake targets in an airbase to increase the number of CM required to knock it off.

Chinese are building their 3rd runway in Hotan.

More than BM, the airpower will determine who wins. We need bring down PLAAF and it's SAM position.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Davidrock » 09 Sep 2020 14:06

New satellite image showing clear advantage to IA from Rezang La - We are in a place where we can see down.
CA is not far off, but they cant look down at our side.

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 49/photo/1

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Sep 2020 14:14

hnair wrote:
SSridhar wrote:Yes, after Galwan, PLA said it would deploy mixed martial arts specialists at the border. They hurriedly recruited some of these from a 'training club' and sent them in.


SSridhar, apparently the chinese internets had a few pics of the chattukam-wielders to much applause. That IA lasso-story should be circulated, insha-mao.

We should sent our own Xi-fu jee, the famous Indian Army Kung Phoo trainer to the border. Him doing a Spreadie-to-Yamaraj at Kala Top is going to show them we are not underestimating them, as Gobar Times seem to :(( daily about.

We were always saving Shi-fu jee for a special occasion, and this is it.


Ayyayyo, what’s happening to BRF military forum, dear honchos?

Of course I blame it all on the mighty middle dingdong Han army (see now they’ve got me doing it too) for being such, ah, droll characters.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 09 Sep 2020 14:24

Suraj wrote:
hnair wrote:The Snow Lion flag needs to be in lot more places than it is currently. Like I said, we need a meme/graphics thread. This freedom fight against the bad guys of Beijing* is going to be long
___________________
* adopting khanish language has its advantages

Indeed we must . While one would expect the Chinese to be outraged at the open display of the Snowlion flag, they are also being smart about the potential of a Streisand Effect from reacting strongly:
China appears to play down participation of Tibetan soldiers in Indian military operation in Ladakh

The Chinese are keenly aware that a sledgehammer approach to the Tibetan participators has the potential to unravel very rapidly for them. They sit upon an enormous province whose native population may entirely side with the nation across the border in wartime. Mountain warfare requires logistics that as has been mentioned here, both the Ladakhis and Tibetans are gratefully offering the Indian armed forces.

Correspondingly, India has the potential to unravel Tibet out of China in a matter of years by compelling the Chinese to do what they do best - overreact . So far they’ve been careful and smart, but there’s only so much they can take of the sight of open sedition against them from the occupied buffer state that sits between them and us.


Back in the day when I learned the tales of the Freedom Movement at my mother’s knee, I came to know of one young firebrand Aruna Asif Ali who raised the contraband Indian National Flag on an official British Indian building and promptly went to jail.

We need a new breed of young troublemakers who will festoon the Chanakyapuri Chinese Embassy with pictures of the Snow Lion in serious discourse with Winnie the Pooh.

And/ Or, use some gentle persuasion by local Bajrang Dal to fly the Snow Lion everywhere Chinese goods are sold.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 09 Sep 2020 14:30

Decision making delegate to the ground commanders.

https://twitter.com/YusufDFI/status/1303514621639188480
The Indian ground commanders are under firm instructions to take decisions on the spot so that there is no time lag in a reaction to PLA, which on the face of it is talking peace but out for a fight on the ground.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 09 Sep 2020 14:34

nam wrote:They have no observation in case Indian armor move towards their position.

This is the reason why Chinese are desperate for us to get down.


What if India moves the forces closer already? Will that be crossing the LAC ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 09 Sep 2020 14:37

What is the LAC, there are soo many perceptions which actually means holders keepers, that is the result of Chinese actions

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Kakarat » 09 Sep 2020 14:37

Davidrock wrote:New satellite image showing clear advantage to IA from Rezang La - We are in a place where we can see down.
CA is not far off, but they cant look down at our side.

https://twitter.com/detresfa_/status/13 ... 49/photo/1


No at this spot we are about 50m lower than the chinese road which you can see using terrain mode in google maps. we are not holding a higher ground at least at this spot also a trail was always available for us to reach this spot, so looks like we were patrolling this region even before

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 09 Sep 2020 14:38

Confirmed! Change of the Chinese commander who failed to prevent Indian taking over the ridge-line in Chushul sector.

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 7474907137
#IndiaTakesOnChina The reaction of PLA/CCP military leadership by summoning Commander of the area to Beijing & subsequent change of Cdr reflects poor/rudderless leadership& their nefarious unethical designs. Loosers @nitingokhale @CaptDKS @bsdhanoa @StratNewsGlobal @realkaypius

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby schinnas » 09 Sep 2020 15:53

pankajs wrote:Not a Guru, but this is exactly what I had pointed out in my previous post i.e. ALL of our words/actions till date have been for restoration of status quo.

Even IFFFFF we have taken over the Black top and the Helmet top, we are hardly a Sq km into the Chinese side of the LAC. We are willing to swap our newly held strategic position for the Chinese going back to pre April/May status i.e back to the base strategy.


India has never said we have crossed over LAC. So all the peaks we have occupied are part of status quo.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 09 Sep 2020 16:06

Officially we had not captured Black Top , Helmet Top etc.,
Out statement is open to interpretation (intentionally). We had just occupied some 30 + peaks that are inside the LAC(which in itself is open to interpretation).

Reading between lines, negotiation is open on certain places and certain places there will not even be negotiations.

I think, we are passing through the fog of war.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RaviB » 09 Sep 2020 16:18

Luxtor wrote:On an esoterical but never the less might be a valid point...for our discussions on this forum at least, can we please not call the Chinese army "PLA"? That name has been used by the chicoms for propaganda reason as ostensibly this army being the liberators and protectors of the Chinese people, while they brutalize their own people and run tanks over them in Tianamen square when they ask for freedom and democracy. Let's not propagate the chicoms' propaganda. Let's just call it simply the Chinese army. :evil:


SHA or Superior Han Army is what Hari Nair ji proposed

RaviB wrote:GEISHA
Great Emperor Incumbent of the Superior Han Army

The lay public commonly uses the terms Chairman of the CPC or President of China instead of the above correct acronym.

The current Geisha is Xi Jinping aka Eleven aka 11 aka Winnie the Pooh aka 11 gin pegs

Related terms are:

SHA
Superior Han Army

It is often mistakenly called PLA or People's Liberation Army and is the armed wing of the Communist Party of China

SHAT
Superior Han Air Traders

Mistakenly called PLAAF or People's Liberation Army Air Force which doesn't make too much sense. Since unlike the PLA, they have never lost a war or even fought one, experts consider it more appropriate to call them Air Traders. As Han Superiority does not require any basis in reality, SH is retained in their name.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 09 Sep 2020 16:45

Mort Walker wrote:Can we leave that speculation about the picture behind? It is likely pre-Galwan according to Gokhale. If the PLA doesn't have competent personnel in place, it soon will as the situation is becoming more serious. It is better to assume they are competent.


Irrespective of when the pic was taken. I wonder if the Chinese realise how ridiculous it makes them look ? The hi tech army which wants to challenge the US looks like a bunch of jokers from the bronze age.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Bart S » 09 Sep 2020 16:52

RaviB wrote:SHA or Superior Han Army is what Hari Nair ji proposed



How about simply, CCP Militia? It is fairly accurate given their antics and the fact that they serve the CCP rather than China, does not insult Chinese ethnicity and hence can find wider acceptance outside of the BENIS thread, etc.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rkirankr » 09 Sep 2020 16:58

Bart S wrote:
RaviB wrote:SHA or Superior Han Army is what Hari Nair ji proposed



How about simply, CCP Militia? It is fairly accurate given their antics and the fact that they serve the CCP rather than China, does not insult Chinese ethnicity and hence can find wider acceptance outside of the BENIS thread, etc.

How about Commie goons

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 09 Sep 2020 17:19

Names need to reflect genocidal DNA of Han ethnicity along with their main trait of backstabbing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RaviB » 09 Sep 2020 17:32

I find the entire idea of Chinese backstabbing flawed. If the enemy gets us in the back, it is either because we haven't been paying attention or are stuck on a sense of chivalry which has no place in modern warfare. The current or next war is certainly not going to be like the Mahabharata, which begins with blowing a conch shell.

If we are listening to what the Chinese are saying instead of what they are doing, we will obviously get "backstabbed". We must recognise China as the enemy and understand them and use that understanding to exploit them. The entire idea of backstabbing would be seen by China as our gullibility, and rightly so.

I wrote about this in more detail on a different thread. China has NEVER betrayed us

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rpartha » 09 Sep 2020 17:45

Interesting...

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 07137?s=20

The reaction of PLA/CCP military leadership by summoning Commander of the area to Beijing & subsequent change of Cdr reflects poor/rudderless leadership& their nefarious unethical designs. Loosers

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pratyush » 09 Sep 2020 18:07

rkirankr wrote:
Bart S wrote:
How about simply, CCP Militia? It is fairly accurate given their antics and the fact that they serve the CCP rather than China, does not insult Chinese ethnicity and hence can find wider acceptance outside of the BENIS thread, etc.

How about Commie goons


Communist Bandits.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2020 19:15

pankajs wrote:Confirmed! Change of the Chinese commander who failed to prevent Indian taking over the ridge-line in Chushul sector.

https://twitter.com/BharatShaktiBSI/sta ... 7474907137
#IndiaTakesOnChina The reaction of PLA/CCP military leadership by summoning Commander of the area to Beijing & subsequent change of Cdr reflects poor/rudderless leadership& their nefarious unethical designs. Loosers @nitingokhale @CaptDKS @bsdhanoa @StratNewsGlobal @realkaypius

Still not sure whether it has happened.

Even if true, it would be interesting to see who has been summoned to Beijing, reprimanded, possibly stripped of rank and put in jail for corruption (the Commissar is watching everywhere). Was it Major General Liu Lin, Commander, South Xinjiang Military District who was conducting talks with our XIV Corps Commander Lt, Gen. Harinder Singh, or Lt Gen Liu Wanglong, Commander, Xinjiang Military District or or Lt General Xu Qiling, Commander PLA Ground Force, Western Theater Command (the General who was transferred from Eastern Theater Command to relieve an older Commander as PLA said they needed a more energetic person just before Galwan) or is it his boss, General Zhao Zhongqi, the Western Theater Commander himself?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 09 Sep 2020 19:20

RaviB wrote:I find the entire idea of Chinese backstabbing flawed. If the enemy gets us in the back, it is either because we haven't been paying attention or are stuck on a sense of chivalry which has no place in modern warfare. The current or next war is certainly not going to be like the Mahabharata, which begins with blowing a conch shell.

If we are listening to what the Chinese are saying instead of what they are doing, we will obviously get "backstabbed". We must recognise China as the enemy and understand them and use that understanding to exploit them. The entire idea of backstabbing would be seen by China as our gullibility, and rightly so.

I wrote about this in more detail on a different thread. China has NEVER betrayed us


The whole betrayal thing is an avoidence mechanism to take ownership of mistakes and fix them. This whole "perception" of LAC is another such nonsense.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby tsarkar » 09 Sep 2020 19:26

Didnt find this analysis posted earlier, so here it goes,

https://theprint.in/opinion/india-sits- ... ly/498462/

India sits on Black Top with Helmet under its boots.

Shorn of deception, disinformation and rhetoric, on the intervening night of 29 and 30 August, our armed forces launched a tactical operation with strategic import: to secure the Kailash Range opposite the Chushul Bowl. This was the long-awaited riposte to the People’s Liberation Army’s preemptive operations violating the Line of Actual Control in Depsang, Galwan, Hot Springs-Gogra-Kugrang and north bank of Pangong Tso in May 2020.

Officially, the Press Information Bureau, Ministry of Defence, released a signed statement by the Army spokesperson Colonel Aman Anand at 10:35 am on 31 August: “On the Night of 29/30 August 2020, PLA troops violated the previous consensus arrived at during military and diplomatic engagements during the ongoing standoff in Eastern Ladakh and carried out provocative military movements to change the status quo. Indian troops pre-empted this PLA activity on the Southern Bank of Pangong Tso Lake, undertook measures to strengthen our positions and thwart Chinese intentions to unilaterally change facts on ground.”

Be that as it may, with this operation, for the first time in the past four months, the armed forces seized the initiative and put the People’s Liberation Army (PLA) on the defensive, partially neutralising the strategic advantage secured by it through its preemptive operations. I analyse the strategic and tactical importance of the operation and the likely military reaction of the PLA.

Our armed forces have secured all tactical heights on the Kailash Range from the south bank of Pangong Tso to Tsaka La that include Helmet, Black Top, Gurung Hill, Magar Hill, Mukhpari, Rezang La and Rechin La. All these areas are on the Indian side of the LAC and were sites of intense battles in China-India War of October-November 1962. China also recognises the alignment of the Line of Actual Control (LAC) in these areas, except in the area of Black Top, which it claims is east of its claim line.

Since China harks back to its 1959 claim line and, at will, moves into un-held areas, the 1993 agreement on Maintenance of Peace and Tranquility and the subsequent agreements, have lost their sanctity. Now, the principle of ‘finders are keepers’ currently prevails, though the facade of LAC is still being maintained for keeping diplomatic lines open (see Map 1).

We had not held these areas since 1962 because the LAC passes over the crest and we did not want to create a situation for a confrontation like it happens on the Line of Actual Control. As the crow flies, this frontage is approximately 30 km.

I assess and presume that south east of Rechin La and north of Indus River, we have selectively secured tactical features on the Kailash Range along the LAC/International Border (IB) up to north of Dumchele, a frontage of 45 km. This is a very difficult terrain, but given our mountaineering experience, it is doable. The Kailash Range from Chang La to Jara La, a frontage of 40 km, was captured by the Chinese in 1962 (see Map 2).

In a nutshell, it was a surgical tactical operation and the surprise was total. We have used approximately one brigade — 3,500 troops — with an equal number as immediate reserve for a likely PLA reaction. None of these positions was physically held by the PLA, however, all preparations would have been made for capturing them assuming that they were held by the PLA. Our deception — both at the strategic and tactical level — was perfect to a fault as was the tactical movement of our troops. Once again, it proves the point that electronic surveillance by aerial and ground systems still has its limitations.

The importance of Kailash Range

Kailash Range is named as such because it extends 360 km to the south-east, all the way to Mount Kailash. In the Chushul Sector, it dominates the Chushul Bowl to the west and Spanggur Tso to the east. The road from Rudok, 90 km to the east on the Tibet-Xinjiang Highway (G 219), runs from south of Spanggur Tso to Spanggur Gap. The international border between India and Tibet runs through the middle of Spanggur Tso (see Map 1).

Whosoever controls the heights on the Kailash Range — from Pangong Tso to Rechin La — dominates all routes to the east and west, and forces the other side to hold defences on the next ridgeline 6-8 km away, or occupy positions of disadvantage on lower heights.


Kailash Range in this Sector was held by us in 1962 and was vacated once Rezang La and Gurung Hill were lost, cutting off the road communications to Chushul as existing in 1962. The Chushul airfield was also rendered inoperable. Post-1962, our defences were well to the rear. It was only in 1986 that India went forward and made defences on the Pangong and Ladakh Ranges. Kailash Range was not occupied to avoid a confrontation. However, contingency plans were made to preemptively secure the same when hostilities were imminent.

North of Spanggur Gap, Black Top is the most dominant feature. This feature was not secured by India in 1962 due to an error of judgement and facilitated the PLA to attack the lower heights of Gurung Hill to the south. The Chinese road to the south bank of Pangong Tso that passes 1.5 km to the east of Black Top and 1.5 km to the North of Helmet, will now be rendered inoperable in hostilities. Now that we hold Black Top and Helmet, it willy-nilly implies that the south bank of Pangong Tso cannot be reached by the PLA using this route. The Chinese would have to develop a new route over a difficult terrain, which, too, can be cut off from our defences. We now effectively control 3 km of the south bank hitherto-fore under PLA control.

Black Top, Gurung Hill and Magar Hill effectively dominate the 4 km wide and 6 km long Spanggur Gap. Our deployment on Magar Hill, Mukhpari, Rezang La and Rechin La also dominates 10 km of the southern bank of Spanggur Tso.


Kailash Range also provides us with a launchpad for an offensive towards the north and south bank of Spanggur Tso, and further towards Rudok. And if we have selectively secured the Kailash Range south east of Rechin La, over a frontage of 45 km, we can further induct Special Forces into the area between Spanggur Tso and Rudok.

Use of Special Frontier Force

As per media reports, the troops of the Special Frontier Force (SFF) or the Vikas regiment, comprising Tibetans living in exile, have been used for the operation. Much has already been written about the SFF. It should suffice to say that it is a highly-motivated Special Force with a stellar track record for both covert and overt operations. Their performance in the current operation has been outstanding. However, one would like them to be used in a tactical/strategic role, behind the enemy lines and not for conventional operations.

More than their tactical performance, it is a strategic message to China that the Tibetan cause is alive and India supports it. This also indicates a major shift with respect to India’s Tibet policy. The Narendra Modi government has made amends for jettisoning the Tibetan cause during the honeymoon phase of its relations with China.

As the stronger power, it would be difficult for China to swallow the bitter pill and opt for a diplomatic solution to agree to status quo ante April 2020. Our gains in the Chushul Sector are tactical in nature. The Chinese preemptive gains in Depsang, Galwan, Hot Springs-Gogra-Kugrang and north of Pangong Tso place it in a position of advantage to make strategic gains in a limited war in terms of territory in Daulat Beg Oldi, Hot Springs- Gogra – Kugrang and north of Pangong Tso. The tenor of Chinese statements is belligerent. We should be prepared for a violent reaction.

In my assessment, to begin with, it would be localised action in the Chushul Sector. However, such an action is likely to spiral into a limited war. Tactically, the PLA cannot afford the loss of Black Top or give us a launchpad for an offensive via Rezang La/Rechin La to reach the IB and out flank the defences of Spanggur Gap.

I foresee a repeat of 1962, with a counter-attack to regain Black Top and then evict us from Helmet and Gurung Hill. Simultaneously, the PLA would attack and capture Rezang La and Rechin La, and then proceed to clear Mukhpari and Magar Hill. Up to end August the PLA had only limited troops in Spanggur Tso area. I assess that the PLA’s reaction will come as soon as its reserves are moved forward because it does not want our defences to become stronger. With 11 days gone, I expect the reaction any time hereafter.


There has been an error of judgement on our part. We should have disregarded the LAC and secured the plateau-like areas to the east of some of the features secured by us to prevent the PLA from coming on to the equivalent or lower heights on the Kailash range east of the LAC to establish a firm base for counter-attacks. The PLA has taken advantage of this error of judgement to secure the equal or lower heights on the Kailash Range facilitating establishment of firm bases for launching counter-attacks. A case in point is what happened at Mukhpari on the intervening night of 7 and 8 September.

Also, our troops must not get involved in a non-military confrontation with the PLA, as it happened on 15 June in Galwan and was attempted at Mukhpari. What happened at Mukhpari and is likely to happen at other features too, is part of PLA’s deception plan to trigger Galwan-type incidents to bring about disengagement and trap us into vacating Kailash Range while hiding its intent to secure the Kailash with or without counter-attacks.

By securing the Kailash Range, we have caught the PLA by the jugular and we must not let go of it. Lay mines and booby traps to keep PLA “street warriors” away. And if need be, use proper military force for effect. Recall 1962 on the Thagla Ridge and in 1967 at Nathu La when the PLA had opened fire for effect in similar situations.

India’s riposte was necessary for national morale and our international prestige. It was a tactical operation that was well executed. However, it would be naive to celebrate a small operation because China will not respond in the manner we did for the past four months. The PLA is likely to react violently and we must gird up for an escalation — it will happen sooner than later.

Lt Gen H S Panag PVSM, AVSM (R) served in the Indian Army for 40 years. He was GOC in C Northern Command and Central Command. Post retirement, he was Member of Armed Forces Tribunal. Views are personal.


I hope we strongly hold on to the Kailash Range and never ever "de-escalate" in this sector.
Last edited by ramana on 09 Sep 2020 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Added bold and underline. ramana

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 09 Sep 2020 19:33

Indian and Chinese troops man remote border outposts just hundreds of metres apart - Reuters
"The situation is tense," an official in New Delhi said, adding that Indian and Chinese troops were squaring off in close proximity in at least four locations south of the Pangong Tso . . . "Both are on their own sides of the LAC," the official said . .

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 09 Sep 2020 19:39

Kiren Rijiju
@KirenRijiju
·
Sep 8
China's PLA has responded to the hotline message sent by Indian Army. They have confirmed that the missing youths from Arunachal Pradesh have been found by their side. Further modalities to handover the persons to our authority is being worked out.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Agasthi » 09 Sep 2020 19:48

Deans wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Can we leave that speculation about the picture behind? It is likely pre-Galwan according to Gokhale. If the PLA doesn't have competent personnel in place, it soon will as the situation is becoming more serious. It is better to assume they are competent.


Irrespective of when the pic was taken. I wonder if the Chinese realise how ridiculous it makes them look ? The hi tech army which wants to challenge the US looks like a bunch of jokers from the bronze age.


According to the link posted earlier in this thread https://chinesemartialstudies.com/2012/11/26/693/, this is still issued to special forces and this Dadao serves as an important tool to instil 'terror', 'political legitimacy' and 'authority'. As per this research, it is an important symbol of chinese resistance and freedom and cemented its place as an icon especially so during the japanese invasions and the subsequent civil war. In 1937, they defeated a japanese force using a dadao charge in what is called as the "The Marco Polo bridge incident". The blog does mention it did not mean much to the western armies at the time, however it is still an iconic symbol just like the Khukri is. Possibly, it speaks more to their domestic audience and maybe PLAGF too has internalised martial arts and wants the special 'martial arts' forces to achieve ninja style breakthrough.

Also, found this on youtube of a travel vlogger, allegedly chinese posts on the eastern ridgelines between chusual and the rezang la war memorial at 1:03. These should be with India now. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PwCn0qAwcGo. Please delete if inappropriate.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2020 20:03

Dilbu wrote:Faced with Prospect of 'Siachenised' LAC, Indian Army Prepares for Cold, Long Haul in Ladakh
Events have raised fears that both armies could find themselves locked into a cycle of mountain-grabs — followed by the commitment of troops to hold that territory. “The sensible thing to do will be for the PLA to swap its positions north of Pangong for those India has taken south of Pangong,” a senior Government official said. “But very little China has done since April has been sensible”. {Gurus,what is the meaning of this?}

The emergency effort to expand the Army’s stockpiles of extreme-weather tents, fibre-reinforced plastic igloos and specialised snow-boots are evidence that the Indian Army is preparing to have to maintain dozens of new high-altitude positions through the winter along the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh.



Welcome back Dilbu. Your reverse jink is highly needed.
ramana

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 09 Sep 2020 20:09

tsarkar we willl hold the range and more.

Panag is good for telling what happened. Rest is gratitous.
The field commanders know what they are doing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby putnanja » 09 Sep 2020 20:15

tsarkar wrote:Didnt find this analysis posted earlier, so here it goes,

https://theprint.in/opinion/india-sits- ... ly/498462/

India sits on Black Top with Helmet under its boots.

by LT GEN H S PANAG (RETD)

...

Lt Gen H S Panag PVSM, AVSM (R) served in the Indian Army for 40 years. He was GOC in C Northern Command and Central Command. Post retirement, he was Member of Armed Forces Tribunal. Views are personal.


I hope we strongly hold on to the Kailash Range and never ever "de-escalate" in this sector.


A grudging appreciation of our actions by the Lt Gen given his political leanings. Lots of good information though. However, as one other retired Gen said, it would be good for now retired officers to stop finding fault in all actions till the current operations/issues end. They can always do post-mortem later on. Right now, would be better to just be quiet even if they find things are done in a way they wouldn't have preferred.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 09 Sep 2020 20:16

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/late ... nese-camps
Latest Satellite Imagery Shows New Indian Camps On Heights South Of Pangong Lake Dominating Chinese Base

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Denis » 09 Sep 2020 20:29

Was watching the views by Lt Gen Pannu on NewsX about comparison of Indian and Chinese forces in light of Harvard study. He made many interesting and enlightening observations.

One of them was that Chinese Industry is good and it prepares copies of latest Western weapons and ships them to PLA. But there they lie in storehouses as the officers do not have the context in which they have to be used and their soldier remain untrained. Basically saying that they get copies of latest toys but they do not have user case, context, in which to use them and those shiny toys are mostly for stage shows like parades and planned fire power demos for their awesome brochures and propoganda videos.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 09 Sep 2020 20:32

Looks like PLA moved in more artillery and APCs/manpower into the North Pangong ridges.

PRC-Indian diplomats are doing their prep sessions in Moscow in advance of S Jaishankar and Wang meeting tomorrow. Main message is that PRC should abide by the 1993 agreements.. Of course PRC will blame it all on IA... not sure how we fix that one. The PRC Def min said the Indian media needs to stop fanning the flames....

GOI has given full authority to local commanders to take whatever action is necessary - no more going back to check with higher ups. This reflects the seriousness of the situation..

Labourers have been rushed in to double down on the road building efforts on the border.

Washington sees this whole episode in Ladakh area as a battle of egos..
Last edited by shyamd on 09 Sep 2020 20:35, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ernest » 09 Sep 2020 20:34

Pratyush wrote:
rkirankr wrote:How about Commie goons


Communist Bandits.


Why not POA (people's oppression army) given what they are doing in HK and elsewhere


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