India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Sep 2020 04:30

Sanju wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Really - Shastri. What about Haji Pir Pass?
71 - perhaps
99 - perhaps

A quote I have also heard from senior officers has been that our generals have let down the YOs be it in peace time or war time!!
Are you putting Shastri ji in the same bucket as JLN? I can come back with criticism of other two too. Understand the context. He opened the IB front. And what was the point of adding the quote?

Please do so. In my view our political class has failed the army through out. Modi is the first one who is different.

That quote was just to add to your comment on the YO's. There is an oft repeated comment that today's YO's are not like before and I found that strange coming from senior officers. One very close family friend and current serving Maj Gen and I had a discussion on this point and he had some interesting insights one of which was the quote I provided.

S

V_Raman · Post by **V_Raman** » 10 Sep 2020 04:36

Have we moved MBRL to the border as well?

Sanju · Post by **Sanju** » 10 Sep 2020 04:38

Sachin disengaging on this thread as per mod suggestion of it being OT. If you would like to continue we can take it to another thread.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 04:40

hanumadu wrote:https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.740113 ... 165226t,0r

Those structures are not there on July 29, 2019 google earth historical data but are there in latest images taken on June 14, 2020.

It almost seems like GoI and IA accepted the Chinese claim of the LAC on the northern shore of Pangong Tso. Either that or they were willfully asleep because to put that many structures up, it would have been noticed in patrolling or by satellite imagery.

Kanson · Post by **Kanson** » 10 Sep 2020 04:52

We are moving further north. From the focus of current area!

ks_sachin · Post by **ks_sachin** » 10 Sep 2020 04:58

Sanju wrote:Sachin disengaging on this thread as per mod suggestion of it being OT. If you would like to continue we can take it to another thread.

Sure..

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 04:59

Kanson wrote:We are moving further north. From the focus of current area!

Actually, in that area it is all the high ground from F8 all the way south to Rezang La which is of concern. Ultimately, cutting off S301 would be ideal.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2020 05:21

There's been some talk about political support related to this LAC initiative, various people wringing hands about long past events ranging from 1962 to Haji Pir. I'd like to bring up the Sunday Guardian article that was quoted in the old thread but seemingly forgotten in this one:
Indian offensive to retake Chinese seized territory: the hidden story

Soon after his arrival at Nimu, Prime Minister Modi was briefed by the Generals on the ground. Lt Gen Harinder Singh briefed him about what action the Chinese army had taken and what they were likely to do next. The Prime Minister listened to his General and somewhere during the course of the briefing he said, “I am not interested in what the Chinese have done and what they will do, I am interested in what you have done and what you will do.” The interjection was set to alter the future course.

It was time to rewrite history. The unthinkable so far was to be done. It was to be an offensive action of quid pro quo into Chinese-seized territory. The Prime Minister in his address had also said that “the weak cannot initiate peace. Bravery is a precondition to peace.” The Generals were quick to understand the shifting paradigm.

The political leadership is not at odds with the army's strategic and tactical initiatives here. The political leadership is demanding what the Army is doing now. Modi could not have been clearer - he does not want a continuation of the old static defence approach. He understands that India cannot negotiate peace from that set-piece approach. He is advocating peace through strength, which means he's literally asking the Army to gain territory and leverage to utilize to force peace on terms that suit us, and not on terms that suit the Chinese, because it's clear that China does not seek status quo at all, unless they have to ask for it in order to curtail more losses for them.

In more ways than one, the entire Indian approach to the LAC has changed, and with it, so has the approach to peace - instead of asking the other side for peace, we're pushing for them to ask it.

Ankit Desai · Post by **Ankit Desai** » 10 Sep 2020 05:31

There are multiple reports that say as of today IA holds highest point of Finger 4 ridge. So if one can check the point on map google or other, you would see that from that point any one can see what is happening till finger 6/7. Really better position than a week back.

"Readjustment" at finger 4 really makes difference.

And already n South bank IA is holding 30 km odd ridge lines.

-Ankit

suryag · Post by **suryag** » 10 Sep 2020 05:36

Suraj garu what an article Sirjee, Am sure the PM would have told the Generals - "am not an expert at strategies or tactics however, here is the end goal from my side go accomplish this using ways that you think are effective" Knowing the Chinese chicken army which will use long agarbathis to even light loose crackers they will most likely start with artillery barrage, basically, they have boxed themselves into a corner and they now have to fight or Xitler goes to re-education camp

vimal · Post by **vimal** » 10 Sep 2020 06:22

Suraj wrote:There's been some talk about political support related to this LAC initiative, various people wringing hands about long past events ranging from 1962 to Haji Pir. I'd like to bring up the Sunday Guardian article that was quoted in the old thread but seemingly forgotten in this one:
Indian offensive to retake Chinese seized territory: the hidden story
Soon after his arrival at Nimu, Prime Minister Modi was briefed by the Generals on the ground. Lt Gen Harinder Singh briefed him about what action the Chinese army had taken and what they were likely to do next. The Prime Minister listened to his General and somewhere during the course of the briefing he said, “I am not interested in what the Chinese have done and what they will do, I am interested in what you have done and what you will do.” The interjection was set to alter the future course.

It was time to rewrite history. The unthinkable so far was to be done. It was to be an offensive action of quid pro quo into Chinese-seized territory. The Prime Minister in his address had also said that “the weak cannot initiate peace. Bravery is a precondition to peace.” The Generals were quick to understand the shifting paradigm.
The political leadership is not at odds with the army's strategic and tactical initiatives here. The political leadership is demanding what the Army is doing now.
...

What a great share Suraj, absolutely made my day. So it took a 69 year old man to tell the army to take the pig by the ears. Our army has been hobbled by the lack of political will for 50 years to do anything. Its mind boggling that India gave up so much territory because there was no road to take anything till the frontline or carry supplies for sustained warfare. Chinese were given a free pass to capture thousands for square miles of area over the last many decades.

A personal anecdote, one of my family member was posted on the eastern front with China and one day observed a Chini column marching towards his units position. He reported the situation to commanding officer and asked for permission to counteract the movement, his CO then sent the message up the chain of command. Crickets! No reply and Chins were almost on his position. He gave orders to open warning shots after which Chins retreated. He almost got court-martialed for this offense, luckily his CO took the heat off him.

Davidrock · Post by **Davidrock** » 10 Sep 2020 07:02

Even though IA is at advantage position at the chusul sector, I am not certain if the conditions are favorable to undertake a limited operation, because we may be at disadvantage at DBO sector, where they are deep in.

But if at all there is an action, we should not wait for them to start. I think some action is inevitable in the next 2 months, we should start it at a time/place of our choosing.

But again, IA knows better

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Sep 2020 07:04

Suraj wrote: In more ways than one, the entire Indian approach to the LAC has changed, and with it, so has the approach to peace - instead of asking the other side for peace, we're pushing for them to ask it.

Suraj, Why do you think India even let the chinese build up on such a massive scale from finger 4 to finger 8 in the first place considering that we stopped them at doklam a few years ago? It's like a mini Shanghai over there. Zoom in on these google earth images.

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.740113 ... 165226t,0r

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2020 07:47

handmade: I think you’re asking a question that’s more a matter of operational capability. Modi’s orders are from June 2020 post Galwan . Doklam was in 2017 . For IA to have headed off the Chinese, they’d have had to have operational clearance and a clear path to gain control of commanding positions and interdict the Chinese. You’re pointing to Google Earth . What is the date of those pictures ? When did the buildup begin ?

hanumadu · Post by **hanumadu** » 10 Sep 2020 08:02

Suraj wrote:handmade: I think you’re asking a question that’s more a matter of operational capability. Modi’s orders are from June 2020 post Galwan . Doklam was in 2017 . For IA to have headed off the Chinese, they’d have had to have operational clearance and a clear path to gain control of commanding positions and interdict the Chinese. You’re pointing to Google Earth . What is the date of those pictures ? When did the buildup begin ?

The date of those pictures is June 14, 2020. Historical images show those structures were not there in July, 2019. If our army had operational clearance in 2017 during Doklam, they would have had it now too. All they had to do was do what they have been doing all along. Push and shove and prevent any structure from coming up.

I think at least some of these structures were from April - May and they probably continued to build up. Irrespective of what Modi said later in June, allowing the build up seems to be contrary to what we have been doing before. Perhaps, they came in large enough numbers that our forces were caught off guard.

ramana · Post by **ramana** » 10 Sep 2020 08:05

Guys back off. I don't want a peeing contest of I know more than you here.

stick to facts only.

Thanks, ramana

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 10 Sep 2020 08:07

This is a very clear enunciation and picture from GoI

India will retaliate in case China breaches red lines, says top official - Rajat Pandit, ToI

Warning China of 'requisite retaliation' if any red lines are now breached in eastern Ladakh, a top government official on Wednesday said India has further reinforced its forward positions to counter fresh Chinese military build-ups and threatening moves in the high-altitude region.

The warning comes after bullets were fired for the first time in 45 years near Mukhpari Top in the Chushul sector on Monday, and ahead of an expected meeting between Indian foreign minister S Jaishankar and his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, in Moscow on Thursday.

PLA has taken to parading tanks and troops on the south bank of Pangong Tso-Chushul area on a daily basis in a bid to intimidate Indian troops after they occupied multiple tactical heights there in a proactive military manoeuvre on August 29-30.

“The dispute is being directed from the very top of the political-military hierarchy in China {i.e Xi himself}, not by the exuberance of local PLA commanders. It can take any trajectory. But if China wants to start a war, it will also have to pay a heavy price,” the official said, pointing out that the events on the LAC were not just an action-reaction sequence. PLA might even try to grab heights elsewhere in a tit-for-tat move but Indian commanders on the ground have been given “full freedom” to respond as they deem appropriate.

“Our soldiers on the heights are well-armed and fully prepared. We have even driven tanks up the ridgeline near Rechin La (Reqin mountain pass),” the official said. The message has been strongly conveyed to PLA to not try to breach Indian perimeter defences, which includes barbed wire, established on the heights.

“They constitute a red line. In fact, nowhere are we under-prepared now,” he added. The Indian security establishment’s assessment is that while China may have positioned around 50,000 soldiers along the frontier in eastern Ladakh as well as around 150 fighters, bombers and other aircraft at airbases in Xinjiang and Tibet, the deployments haven’t yet reached the threshold of a full-blown conflict.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2020 08:38

hanumadu wrote:
Suraj wrote:handmade: I think you’re asking a question that’s more a matter of operational capability. Modi’s orders are from June 2020 post Galwan . Doklam was in 2017 . For IA to have headed off the Chinese, they’d have had to have operational clearance and a clear path to gain control of commanding positions and interdict the Chinese. You’re pointing to Google Earth . What is the date of those pictures ? When did the buildup begin ?
The date of those pictures is June 14, 2020. Historical images show those structures were not there in July, 2019. If our army had operational clearance in 2017 during Doklam, they would have had it now too. All they had to do was do what they have been doing all along. Push and shove and prevent any structure from coming up.

I think at least some of these structures were from April - May and they probably continued to build up. Irrespective of what Modi said later in June, allowing the build up seems to be contrary to what we have been doing before. Perhaps, they came in large enough numbers that our forces were caught off guard.

The Modi visit and subsequent clearance from the highest levels came in mid July 2020 . His visit was in early July 2020, after the Galwan episode in May/June. I think you’ve misunderstood the sequence of events and read the previous post to imply that such clearance came in 2017. It did not - the Sunday Guardian story is 3-4 days old and describes events from July 2020 .

As you state , the maps are from June 2020 which therefore predates any such clearance, and even after the fact, the emphasis has been on beating the Chinese to unoccupied positions of importance rather than forcing them out from incredibly well entrenched locations.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 10 Sep 2020 08:56

the one good thing to come out of all this IMHO is both sides are carrying firearms now..no more lathi charges and stone pelting.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Sep 2020 09:07

Mort Walker wrote:
hanumadu wrote:https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.740113 ... 165226t,0r

Those structures are not there on July 29, 2019 google earth historical data but are there in latest images taken on June 14, 2020.
It almost seems like GoI and IA accepted the Chinese claim of the LAC on the northern shore of Pangong Tso. Either that or they were willfully asleep because to put that many structures up, it would have been noticed in patrolling or by satellite imagery.

This was done and dusted long back and then we had a partial disengagement where they left for F5 and beyond except for the green top on F4.

Now with India refocussing on F4, they seem to have flooded back but where between F4/5 and on F4 but where exactly is unclear so is the Indian position(s).

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Sep 2020 09:10

Mort Walker wrote:
Kanson wrote:We are moving further north. From the focus of current area!
Actually, in that area it is all the high ground from F8 all the way south to Rezang La which is of concern. Ultimately, cutting off S301 would be ideal.

I am not sure Kanson was referring to Pangong tso sector.

My guess is he was talking of either Gogra or Depsang where Indian and Chinese forces remain in close proximity and engaged. But of course only Kanson can clarify.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 09:15

Suraj,

Since early May 2020 there have been scuffles between the IA and PLA in 3 different locations, Galwan Valley, Pangong Tso, and Naku La, Sikkim. Galwn Valley got the most media attention.

At Pangong Tso, since early May 2020 to present, the PLA has blocked IA patrols form Finger-4 to Finger-8, and it has also constructed building fortifications and bunkers in this area. A road from Finger-4 to Finger-8 along the northern shore of Pangong Tso of 8 Km. I am sure the GoI and IA tried to resolve this peacefully, but the PLA had no such intention. Given what happened in Doklam and in Galwan in June, there should have been immediate push back.

I will reference the following map which is fairly decent about depicting the current situation:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg_QZ1VU8AI ... ame=medium

Pratyush · Post by **Pratyush** » 10 Sep 2020 09:17

V_Raman wrote:I dont think India can use cluster bombs unless China uses it. Ground forces - yes anything goes. But air armaments - they will match China on heavy weapons IMO

In times of war laws are silent. All weapons will be used if the use of them is justified to accomplish the tactical objective.

PS, by the logic of not using cluster munitions, the use of of all other munitions is also prohibited.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 09:24

pankajs wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:
Actually, in that area it is all the high ground from F8 all the way south to Rezang La which is of concern. Ultimately, cutting off S301 would be ideal.
I am not sure Kanson was referring to Pangong tso sector.

My guess is he was talking of either Gogra or Depsang where Indian and Chinese forces remain in close proximity and engaged. But of course only Kanson can clarify.

Latest reports indicate there are 50,000 PLA troops in eastern Ladakh and 150 aircraft including transport, helos, and combat. In the Chulsul area there are up to 7,000 PLA troops. It is likely that any conflict will include a major push between Pangong Tso and Spanggur Tso due to the high number of PLA troops in the area. Of course this could be a diversion, but unlikely as open sources would point out other areas of a large build up.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 09:27

Keeping 7,000 PLA troops in the Chulsul area above 14,000 ft. will require robust supply lines and logistics since the PLA are so far from main bases. These supply lines must be interrupted and cut.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2020 09:29

Mort Walker wrote:Given what happened in Doklam and in Galwan in June, there should have been immediate push back.

I will reference the following map which is fairly decent about depicting the current situation:
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg_QZ1VU8AI ... ame=medium

In my opinion there was immediate pushback. The only problem is what immediate means. It took until mid July for the PM to visit and basically discard a 60 year old static defense policy and start afresh.

There’s no point in arguing ‘it should have been done in May 2020 / 2019 / 2017 / 1987 / 1975 / 1961 whatever. It happened when it happened so work from there on a factual basis . Anything else is either a wishlist or a whine.

On my part I appreciate that the PM made a visit of such consequence as to entire discard a LAC defense approach that’s about as old as my own parents. That’s more significant than people realize, and it’s effects will take a lot longer than a week (the elapsed time since the first action under the new policy) to show real long term sustainable effect.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Sep 2020 09:39

Mort Walker wrote:Keeping 7,000 PLA troops in the Chulsul area above 14,000 ft. will require robust supply lines and logistics since the PLA are so far from main bases. These supply lines must be interrupted and cut.

And that's exactly why we should use the Air Force in an offensive mode from day one following an attack. We should not wait for the Chinese to 'escalate' to use air power, because they won't - they have severe a disadvantage in sustained air ops in the area and would try to keep it a ground conflict, for which they have good infra - roads, storage dumps, etc. The situation was exactly the same in '62, if only the IAF had been asked to drop a few bombs...

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Sep 2020 09:50

Mort Walker wrote:Given what happened in Doklam and in Galwan in June, there should have been immediate push back.

Yes, and we had posters also arguing for capturing Lhasa

A build up to war needs a lot of things to be aligned, perhaps it was not in our interest to do so then? I don't know the reason why we didn't "immediately push back", but I am sure there were some good reasons to not do so. From my armchair, I can think of a few: summer is not a good campaign season for us, since winter is quite far off, increasing the chances of a prolonged conflict which we don't want, the coming monsoon season that would hamper our supply lines just when our local stocks dwindle and we need to replenish through these lines, not enough acclimatized troops that could be moved immediately, external environment, full blown Corona issue needing the govt's focus, etc. We don't know the full picture. However, at the same time, we didn't stay passive - we counter deployed to thwart them, took action on the ground where provoked (Galwan, f.e.), and also used the opportunity to impose severe economic costs on them, used diplomacy to drum up support as well as to encourage relocation of MNC supply chains, etc. I'd say, looking at the big picture, we did push back almost immediately, just not militarily.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Sep 2020 09:53

Denis wrote:Those were the views of Lt Gen Pannu, not mine. He also related a few anecdotes on this as well as his other observations on rigidity versus flexibility, amount of leeways allowed to local commanders, control & delegation etc etc. He was very factual on the characteristics of the soldiers on both sides. I tried a lot to get a link to the video, so that experts like you could comment, but I think it has still not been loaded on the newsX website yet.

I'll try to catch up on this today, but did he mention anything about their commissar system? These are CCP hacks in uniform that are deployed with every unit to ensure the troops stick to the party line, and apparently have the same/greater authority than the unit commander himself. I can imagine a lot of mistakes being made by these chaps given they have the authority but little/no military training.

arshyam · Post by **arshyam** » 10 Sep 2020 09:54

williams wrote:https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status/1303708165305892870?s=20

After the first phase deployment by infantry units at dawn on 30th Aug India managed to drive up tanks at Richin La in broad daylight that Sunday evening surprising the Chinese even more. Since then full consolidation has happened on those heights.
I didn't know that.

I am not that surprised by this - we have some of the best sapper units in the world, so if there is way to get tanks there, they'd find it. Clearly, they seem to have done exactly that.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Sep 2020 09:55

Mort Walker wrote:
abhik wrote:https://twitter.com/Arunima24/status/13 ... 2303278081
As per this report, after our actions on the North of Pangong, yesterday the PLA sent 1500-2000 from the valley to positions on the ridge (mentions F3) - I'm assuming this is in addition to the troops already there. We are "matching" their force. Looks like the Chinese are getting desperate to get some leverage back and have started to throw the kitchen sink.
Doesn't make sense. Finger 3 would put the PLA west of the ITBP camp. Finger 4 makes more sense.
https://pbs.twimg.com/media/Eg_QZ1VU8AI ... ame=medium
https://static.toiimg.com/photo/imgsize ... 489167.jpg

The markings of the fingers is not correct, what is shown as F3 is actually F1, and what is shown as F5 is actually F7(?), the "fingers" are distinct at the shore of the lake but are part of the same feature as you walk up the ridge.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 09:59

Suraj,

You can call it a whine, but pushback between Finger-4 and Finger-8 was clearly justified between May and present. This is justified and doesn't expand the conflict from the Indian PoV.

abhik · Post by **abhik** » 10 Sep 2020 10:03

hanumadu wrote:Holy F**k, They are like ants every where.

Between F4 and F8 on the north shores of Pongang Tso. Are they planning to build another Beijing there?

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r

Saar, you are late to the party onlee, these images have been out for a couple of months at least.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 10:09

arshyam wrote:
Mort Walker wrote:Keeping 7,000 PLA troops in the Chulsul area above 14,000 ft. will require robust supply lines and logistics since the PLA are so far from main bases. These supply lines must be interrupted and cut.
And that's exactly why we should use the Air Force in an offensive mode from day one following an attack. We should not wait for the Chinese to 'escalate' to use air power, because they won't - they have severe a disadvantage in sustained air ops in the area and would try to keep it a ground conflict, for which they have good infra - roads, storage dumps, etc. The situation was exactly the same in '62, if only the IAF had been asked to drop a few bombs...

I don't doubt the IAF would be used, however this time the PLA has moved significant air power into the area in Ngari Prefecture.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2020 10:09

Mort Walker wrote:Suraj,

You can call it a whine, but pushback between Finger-4 and Finger-8 was clearly justified between May and present. This is justified and doesn't expand the conflict from the Indian PoV.

It’s a whine because you’re willfully refusing to work with reality and instead prefer to complain that something didn’t happen sooner . Exactly what productive or actionable purpose is served by that ?

A very consequential policy change has occurred . You can choose to focus your energies on understanding how it affects the present and future, or you can live in your make believe world where something should have happened sooner and therefore all your energy goes into complaining about that . Your choice .

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 10:10

I think this is important to put this here. It is the funeral of Nyima Tenzin of the SFF.

Mort Walker · Post by **Mort Walker** » 10 Sep 2020 10:16

Suraj wrote: It’s a whine because you’re willfully refusing to work with reality and instead prefer to complain that something didn’t happen sooner . Exactly what productive or actionable purpose is served by that ?

A very consequential policy change has occurred . You can choose to focus your energies on understanding how it affects the present and future, or you can live in your make believe world where something should have happened sooner and therefore all your energy goes into complaining about that . Your choice .

I'm sorry you feel that way, but reports of large number of heavily armed PLA troops between Finger-4 and Finger-8 in recent days is very disturbing. If they were just squatting on the land, as in the past, it was no big deal.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 10 Sep 2020 10:47

Just re-read Nitin's post

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8170557441

Since then India has strengthened defences not just on South Bank of Pangong Tso but also on the North Bank. Indian troops now occupy highest points at Finger 4, stationing themselves above the Chinese presence on the lower heights of the ridge line.

If this is not a type, looks like we are multiple points on the F4 ridge. Good.

May be we have gone on to dominate the other figures too using the common spine but this is speculation.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 10 Sep 2020 10:48

Mort , Then why don’t you use your knowledge to analyze reality from our end rather than complain in a manner that absolute no one can do anything about ? There’s no statute of limitations to the number of things in the past that could have been done differently . Don’t waste your time whining about it .

Aditya_V · Post by **Aditya_V** » 10 Sep 2020 11:22

abhik wrote:
hanumadu wrote:Holy F**k, They are like ants every where.

Between F4 and F8 on the north shores of Pongang Tso. Are they planning to build another Beijing there?

https://earth.google.com/web/@33.736337 ... 216303t,0r
Saar, you are late to the party onlee, these images have been out for a couple of months at least.

All good in summer, but come winter when even their piss will freeze before hits the ground, some of these Chinese conscripts will be mightly pleased with Xitler.

What happened to the 2000 plus Chinese vehicles in the Galwan river- what has happened to them?