India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

[pankajs]

RUMINT seems to suggest that CMC has taken direct control of the LAC.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 1165053961

Xi Jinping has appointed CMC 2nd Vice Chairman Zhang Youxia as impose direct CMC control over PLA activities along LAC. Zhang used to be a commander of 13th Grp Army of PLA Western Thtr Cmnd.

[pankajs]

Just re-read Nitin's post

https://twitter.com/nitingokhale/status ... 8170557441

Since then India has strengthened defences not just on South Bank of Pangong Tso but also on the North Bank. Indian troops now occupy highest points at Finger 4, stationing themselves above the Chinese presence on the lower heights of the ridge line.

If this is not a type, looks like we are multiple points on the F4 ridge. Good.

May be we have gone on to dominate the other figures too using the common spine but this is speculation.

Rohit too seems to either suggest or recommend the same.

https://twitter.com/KesariDhwaj/status/ ... 0552473601

- With IA taking higher point on F4 ridge, Chinese have been served a lesson in mountain warfare.
- Be ready to control the highest point or someone else will, and piss on your posts.
- IA has now literally outflanked the entire Chinese presence between F4-F8.

Also gels with my suggestion in an earlier post that we need to sit at the top of two valleys on the Chinese side that allows for easy access to the root of the fingers to prevent outflanking, one starting at the Sirijap and the other not the north aligned east to west. Just check the path drawn on the ridge in RED.

[pankajs]

IF we have taken positions on the ridge dominating the Sirijap, then the negotiations for F4/8 becomes very localized and our Spanggur positions need not come into picture at all.

While the ridge-line can be used to dominate the area between F4 to Sirijap, it does not allow for induction of force in any decent numbers. Therefore, we need to find alternate path that can be used to carry troops into the area between F4 and Sirijap. Hopefully IA is working on that now that we dominate the ridge-lines.

Btw, use the above map provided by Rohit to align you finger count/identification. Looks legit to me.

[Dilbu]

Indian Army occupies more heights around Ladakh lake

New Delhi: The Indian Army has reportedly occupied heights on the north bank of Pangong Tso which overlook Chinese positions on the ridge lines in the Finger 4 area. This means that the Indian Army now has a tactical advantage on both the north and south banks of the Pangong Tso.

Mountain warfare is all about dominating the heights, and since they have come under the Indian Army’s control, there are reports that China has started building up its forces on the north bank of the Pangong Tso and is trying to come closer to the Indian position at Finger 4.

What has added to the tension is the fact that now all the action in the Pangong Tso area is being controlled directly by commanders in Beijing and it’s no longer in the hands of local PLA officers.

To put pressure on India, China had also brought forward its 15-20 tanks near Spanggur Gap, a mountain pass on the LAC, between China and India. India too has deployed its battle tanks.

In its Moldo garrison, China has now deployed 5,000-7,000 soldiers and India has a similar number in the area.

[Dilbu]

40 Chinese soldiers tried to intrude into Indian territory using motorboats on Sept 8: Sources

Chinese troops, once again, tried to intrude into Indian territory on September 8, amid border tensions between Indian and Chinese troops at Line of Actual Control (LAC) in Ladakh.

Two motorboats on the western shore of Pangong Lake were used by the Chinese troops to intrude into Indian territory, but their efforts were unsuccessful as Indian troops were already stationed there.

According to sources, Chinese soldiers tried to move past Finger 4 in Eastern Ladakh on two motorboats on Tuesday at around 5 pm. There were about 40 Chinese soldiers in these boats. Notably, Finger 4 has been occupied by Chinese troops since May.Upon noticing the movement of Chinese soldiers, Indian troops stationed at surveillance post in Finger 3, immediately raised the alarm

[Dilbu]

50,000 PLA men and surface-to-air missiles near LAC

According to intelligence with Indian officials, China has amassed about 50,000 troops, surface-to-air missiles, a large section of rocket forces and close to 150 fighter aircraft within striking distance of LAC, the largest buildup of troops in the region.

The buildup has enhanced steadily since early May, when China redeployed troops participating in an exercise in Tibet towards LAC. India has still not been able to figure the motive and timing of the move. There is an assessment that the PLA troops are not controlled by local military commanders but directly from Beijing. It is learnt that in the new conflict zone along the southern bank of Pangong Tso, Chinese troops have been trying to test Indian positions daily, apparently on the direct instructions from Beijing.

[Anujan]

RUMINT seems to suggest that CMC has taken direct control of the LAC.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 1165053961

Xi Jinping has appointed CMC 2nd Vice Chairman Zhang Youxia as impose direct CMC control over PLA activities along LAC. Zhang used to be a commander of 13th Grp Army of PLA Western Thtr Cmnd.

Only fella with any war experience: Sino-Vietnam war

[Mort Walker]

RohitVats map of the LAC depicted in red is the Chinese LAC, not the actual Indian LAC. The actual LAC north of the Pangong Tso comes down to F-8.

[AshishA]

RUMINT seems to suggest that CMC has taken direct control of the LAC.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 1165053961

Only fella with any war experience: Sino-Vietnam war

He is 70 years old. Do the generals of PLA really serve that long or that he is exception?

[Denis]

Those were the views of Lt Gen Pannu, not mine. He also related a few anecdotes on this as well..

I'll try to catch up on this today, but did he mention anything about their commissar system? These are CCP hacks in uniform that are deployed with every unit to ensure the troops stick to the party line, and apparently have the same/greater authority than the unit commander himself. I can imagine a lot of mistakes being made by these chaps given they have the authority but little/no military training.

Oh Yes! He did. He said that the word of commisar is ultimate and has to be obeyed in entirety or the consequence can be severe. He related an anecdote, where our patrolling party encountered a Chinese officr who wanted us to let him go to a particular point , put something that he was carrying, take a photo and go back. When our party did not allow that, he was in tears saying that he just needs a photo to show back. When we still did not allow, he put the thing down on that spot itself, clicked a photograph and vanished . Lt.Gen Pannu said that this system is what makes them more like Robots and it is almost imposssible to reason with them because they are kind of programmed to do a thing and face genuine confusion when things take a different turn.

[pankajs]

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/13 ... 5800947712

As I had reported on Sept 2, Indian forces have taken dominant positions in Finger 4 on Pangong’s north bank. Quick thread follows on the latest situation.

1. Indian Army's distinct shift in stance from reactive to preemptive has provided substantial Quid-Pro-Quo element.
2. Skirmish still very real possibility given proximity of forces, but short/localised if at all.
3. Height dominance game has majorly changed since Aug 29.

1. Aug 29 preemptive actions not just on Pangong south bank & Rechin/Rezang La, but further south along LAC too.
2. Escalation possible anywhere, esp. PTSO, Depsang
3. Expect Chinese psy-ops 'tsunami' including photos/videos of 'captives' from early May scuffle at Pangong.

Have we done some "special ops" in the Dumchule/Demchok area? This is in keeping with action around LAC wonlee theme.

There is nothing much of interest south of Rechin/Rezang La till we reach Dumchule.

[SSridhar]

RUMINT seems to suggest that CMC has taken direct control of the LAC.

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 1165053961

Xi Jinping has appointed CMC 2nd Vice Chairman Zhang Youxia as impose direct CMC control over PLA activities along LAC. Zhang used to be a commander of 13th Grp Army of PLA Western Thtr Cmnd.

If true, and that is a big IF, then it shows deep frustration. Xi gambled very heavily and lost. He has to recover his face or else opposition to his governance would grow. One top-level Chinese analyst in an international webinar said that the Chinese were comparing the honor extended to the Indian martyrs at Galwan with the total clampdown in China and how they have to get news from Indian media.

Anotherr point if it were true. The South Xinjiang Military District, as part of WTC, was responsible for Gosthana and it was its Maj. Gen who was conducting talks with us. The Tibet Military District was already reporting directly to CMC. So, this current move would mean that the the entire Tibet-Xinjing border with India would come directly under CMC whose Chairman is Xi Jinping. He is staking just too much.

[sooraj]

Press Trust of India
@PTI_News
·
6m
I compliment IAF for swift action near LAC during recent unfortunate incident: Defence Minister Rajnath Singh

[Dilbu]

Which incident is he referring to?

[williams]

Which incident is he referring to?

He is speaking about the induction of Rafale amidst a standoff

[Dilbu]

India-China faceoff: New satellite images depict extremely fluid situation at LAC | Exclusive

The first set of high resolution satellite imagery since the preemptive operation by the Indian Army at the southern bank of Pangong Lake, show an extremely fluid situation at the Line of Actual Control (LAC). The latest imagery accessed by India Today suggests that the Chinese claims of Indian Army crossing the LAC may not be true at all.

While there are no visible signs of occupation of the peak of Helmet top mountain by either forces, images show presence of a cluster of Chinese military vehicles and camouflaged tents at the bottom of the mountain. The tracks to the empty Helmet top are seen leading from the Chinese side.

On the north bank of the lake, the Chinese army seems to have vacated some of the ridgeline positions at finger four. New images show that the spots seen occupied by the People's Liberation Army (PLA) in earlier images are now vacant. As earlier reported by India Today, the PLA has vacated the shores of finger four areas but continue to build additional infrastructure between finger five and finger eight.

The distance between new Chinese position and finger four flash point is almost 1.7 km. The Chinese build up on the shores of finger five include a mix of more than 20 armour protected vehicles and heavy military vehicles. Additional Chinese tents and camouflaged material can also be seen on the shores of finger five. The Chinese build up also indicates that the PLA could be preparing for a long haul in this area.

[Dilbu]

Which incident is he referring to?

He is speaking about the induction of Rafale amidst a standoff

Why can't he say that in a better way. Made me dhoti-shiber for a second worrying about some unfortunate incident involving IAF at the LAC.

[Denis]

Which incident is he referring to?

He is speaking about the induction of Rafale amidst a standoff

Don't think so. He is saying "Recent Action near LAC" The induction of Rafale is not an action near LAC. Also he is mentioning a recent unfortunate incident, and not the prevailing circumstances.

[Davidrock]

As per tweet from Nathan Ruser, IA is not in BT and HT.
So except Nithin, everybody else got it wrong.
Still it was a good operation, but one false info takes the toll on info domain.

[nam]

It doesn't matter if we are on helmet top or cricket pad top. The objective was to dominate over the Spungur gap and invoke reaction from the Chinis.

If the Chinis were not bothered, they wouldn't have been doing brigadier talks for 7 days! Almost daily. The Chini commander is in a soup, trying to save his backside.

The Chinis have done exactly how we wanted. They got the message, that their Salami slicing will only work, as long as we don't do counter slicing. Since we didn't take action for the past 3 months, PLA thought we got scared of their "power".

Now they are in a corner.

[Davidrock]

^ Agree, QPQ at a small level should be done in many places to make them do what we want them to do.
But many sources got it wrong, which is not good sign.

[Hari Nair]

There is an article in the Rag - The Print - worth a glance mainly for the fairly detailed map it provides.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia/why-indian-troops-secured-kailash-range-crestline-and-the-importance-of-chushul-bowl/ar-BB18T7FS?ocid=msedgntp#image=1
The map provides a good perspective of our dominance in the Chushul - Spanggur Gap area. Also lets us know the pictorially the reason for agitation of the Great Hans Army, now that we are literally raining on their parade in the lower valley.
The article is perhaps worth a skim read
- That village idiot editor Coupta wants to preach to the choir - "Big countries go to war with each other when they have a big strategic objective. They don’t do it to settle scores over something that happened 58 years ago".
So for Coupta, its just something that just "happened in the past".

Gen Panag appears to be rather amiss in his reading of history. He comments that China will try and do what they had done in 1962, which is take these heights one by one and clear Indian forces out of there.
I am actually amazed that this general officer who once commanded the area (Northern Command) does not know the basics of what happened there during the Battle of RezangLa.
Firstly - the heights being currently held by us were never held in '62.
Secondly - the 13 Kumaon (C Coy) that is just about one company strength were deployed in penny packets at far lower positions, which were overrun by perhaps a brigade strength of Chinese.
Thirdly - Our posts today are manned by far higher and appropriate numbers.
Fourthly - The heights being manned today - its definitely not going to be possible for the Chinese to "take these heights one-by-one" as if they were strolling in a garden picking cherries.

I am continuously amazed by Gen Panag's statements that appear to border on the other side of senility.

[csharma]

With XJP staking so much on the Ladakh situation, action is likely after the FM talks. Hope IA can deliver a bloody nose.

[Roop]

Whoa! We have finally made them go kinetic? Against the IA who commands higher ground where the defender has 4 to 1 advantage? And against a IAF with more and closer bases whose planes can carry full load unlike their few from the rarified air of the plateau?
... I hate to sound like a warmonger but ...

You don't sound like a warmonger, you sound like a hawk/hardliner, and there's nothing wrong with that. I am a hardliner myself, and we hardliners have nothing to apologize for.

I want to see India administer a serious ass-kicking to the PLA/PLAAF here (in Ladakh certainly, and maybe also in Arunachal Pradesh), and I want to this made public in pictures/videos for all the world to see. No holding back publicity to help China "save face".

The only way this horsesh!t stops is for China to not only be defeated, but to be seen (by the whole world) to be defeated, as happened with Vietnam in 1979. If you give them the slightest grounds for escaping with their H&D intact, they will be back next spring to repeat this cr@p. And next spring we may or may not have the kind of international diplomatic backing we have now. For God's sake, we don't even know if Trump will be President next year.

===============================================================================================

NewsX is the only channel that has Ladakh as focus and has some serious panelists like former diplomats and generals, people like Mr Ranade. It has a jingoist tone but the discussions are of the same calibre as we are having here on BRF.

Agreed, that's why it is my favourite go-to channel for news on this topic.

[rkirankr]

Sudhir Chaudhary

@sudhirchaudhary

BIG SUCCESS : Indian Army has occupied several dominating heights close to China's existing positions at finger 4, north bank of Pangong lake : Sources

[williams]

He is speaking about the induction of Rafale amidst a standoff

Don't think so. He is saying "Recent Action near LAC" The induction of Rafale is not an action near LAC. Also he is mentioning a recent unfortunate incident, and not the prevailing circumstances.

I saw the tweet it is what he said during the induction ceremony.

[putnanja]

There is an article in the Rag - The Print - worth a glance mainly for the fairly detailed map it provides.
https://www.msn.com/en-in/news/newsindia/why-indian-troops-secured-kailash-range-crestline-and-the-importance-of-chushul-bowl/ar-BB18T7FS?ocid=msedgntp#image=1
The map provides a good perspective of our dominance in the Chushul - Spanggur Gap area. Also lets us know the pictorially the reason for agitation of the Great Hans Army, now that we are literally raining on their parade in the lower valley.
The article is perhaps worth a skim read
- That village idiot editor Coupta wants to preach to the choir - "Big countries go to war with each other when they have a big strategic objective. They don’t do it to settle scores over something that happened 58 years ago".
So for Coupta, its just something that just "happened in the past".

Gen Panag appears to be rather amiss in his reading of history. He comments that China will try and do what they had done in 1962, which is take these heights one by one and clear Indian forces out of there.
I am actually amazed that this general officer who once commanded the area (Northern Command) does not know the basics of what happened there during the Battle of RezangLa.
Firstly - the heights being currently held by us were never held in '62.
Secondly - the 13 Kumaon (C Coy) that is just about one company strength were deployed in penny packets at far lower positions, which were overrun by perhaps a brigade strength of Chinese.
Thirdly - Our posts today are manned by far higher and appropriate numbers.
Fourthly - The heights being manned today - its definitely not going to be possible for the Chinese to "take these heights one-by-one" as if they were strolling in a garden picking cherries.

I am continuously amazed by Gen Panag's statements that appear to border on the other side of senility.

Sir, Gen Panag (retd) is politically biased. So he has grudgingly appreciated IA action while raising concerns which may not be realistic. I feel sad when even retired armed forces officers don't distinguish between praising armed forces & praising govt which they may not like. It's the same reason why other political commentators post anti-India comments because they are anti-govt( rape capital/women&children not safe etc). If they can't distinguish between govt in power and the country, it shows their intellectual capability.

[la.khan]

Something that has been nagging me for the last few weeks/months, since this sh*t started in Galwan valley.

The Chinese are famous for breaking verbal/written agreements, as & when they please. This is the experience of not just GoI/IA, but also others in the international community. PRC has a very poor reputation when it comes to agreements. Most of the time, the other party take it on the chin, smile/grin and move on.

So, what is it about the agreement between the IA & PLA about "no shots fired on the border in the last few years/decades" that holds? The PRC/PLA seem to follow the accord to the letter. They fight with sticks, stones, rods, clubs, and that curtain rod thingy but PRC/PLA have not yet violated this agreement.

Why does this agreement alone have sanctity over any other accord/agreement PRC/PLA signed (not just with us but other accords with others)? What gives?!?

[rajpa]

Something that has been nagging me for the last few weeks/months, since this sh*t started in Galwan valley.

The Chinese are famous for breaking verbal/written agreements, as & when they please. This is the experience of not just GoI/IA, but also others in the international community. PRC has a very poor reputation when it comes to agreements. Most of the time, the other party take it on the chin, smile/grin and move on.

So, what is it about the agreement between the IA & PLA about "no shots fired on the border in the last few years/decades" that holds? Why doesn't PRC/PLA violate this agreement too? Why does this agreement alone have sanctity over any other accord/agreement PRC/PLA signed (not just with us but other accords with others)? What gives?!?

It fits in nicely with their Sunshoo philosophy of winning without fighting. But it actually served the purpose of keeping the borders relatively inactive for a long time.

[Anoop]

Does anybody else see the parallel between CMC taking direct charge of the LAC situation sitting 3000 km away and Gen. Kaul taking control of Namka Chu deployment from Delhi in 1962? Until he came there and got a first hand appreciation at 4.30 am of the Chinese deployment, he thought it was a sound idea. Wonder when the penny will drop for the CMC about the wisdom of putting 7000 troops in the Spanggur Tso and Pangong Tso areas when the heights are not with them. In 1962, the Chinese advance on Rezang La was preceded by over 2 hours of arty shelling on that post. If that is attempted today, one can imagine the casualties even from friendly fire, given the proximity of forces, to say nothing of Indian response in kind.

[Hari Nair]

Something that has been nagging me for the last few weeks/months, since this sh*t started in Galwan valley. ...The Chinese are famous for breaking verbal/written agreements, as & when they please. ...., what is it about the agreement between the IA & PLA about "no shots fired on the border in the last few years/decades" that holds? Why doesn't PRC/PLA violate this agreement too?... What gives?!?

It fits in nicely with their Sunshoo philosophy of winning without fighting. But it actually served the purpose of keeping the borders relatively inactive for a long time.

It goes far deeper than that. Its part of their historical salami slicing tactics they have used even against the Soviets in the '50s. If you look up some historical records of that conflict - the Great Hans used similar barbarian weapons - the Soviets then resorted to using some sort of sharp modified pitch-forks with long handles to prod these "warriors" and keep them a 'pitch-fork' length away. There are old black & white pics of Soviet troops armed with these modified tools.

Notwithstanding all that - they did suddenly resort to ambush with small-arms and killed some Soviets IIRC, in an incident in the '50s

[AdityaM]

dont know what/who to trust anymore

https://twitter.com/Arunima24/status/13 ... 78081?s=20

1500-2000 PLA soldiers with their artillery guns have perched themselves on ridges of finger3. India has also matched numbers in terms of troop deployment. Only 300 m aerial distance seperates the 2 sides. Situation tensed but commander level talks hv prevented escalation:sources

Finger 3? and someone is claiming we have reached over finger 4?

[SSridhar]

It fits in nicely with their Sunshoo philosophy of winning without fighting. But it actually served the purpose of keeping the borders relatively inactive for a long time.

It goes far deeper than that. Its part of their historical salami slicing tactics they have used even against the Soviets in the '50s. If you look up some historical records of that conflict - the Great Hans used similar barbarian weapons - the Soviets then resorted to using some sort of sharp modified pitch-forks with long handles to prod these "warriors" and keep them a 'pitch-fork' length away. There are old black & white pics of Soviet troops armed with these modified tools.

Notwithstanding all that - they did suddenly resort to ambush with small-arms and killed some Soviets IIRC, in an incident in the '50s

Exactly, Hari Nair. They ambushed and massacred several Soviet soldiers. Of course, the Soviets retaliated later and wiped out the Chinese soldiers. This led to the Ussuri river clash. The Galwan tactic was very similar. But, the Soviet forces were thin in the far East and they saw no strategic significance to holding on to a few islands in the river etc. and eventually settled the issue with the Hans.

I also believe that the reason they had these agreements was not to provoke IA and get into a shooting match while they still wanted to develop a lot of infra on their side. They knew that they could do such developments on a faster & bigger scale than us and thus gain advantage, the topography also helping them better. But, Xi has now decided that the shelf-life of Deng's 24-character strategy had expired and now was the best time to take on India at least on a limited scale. He miscalculated Indian response.

[nam]

This is the crucial point we need to keep in mind. Chinis will carry out another ambush in some form. They are hardly 200-300 mtrs from some of our positions. We should not be stupid enough to limit our response to small arms or localized artillery.

We got to give back an overwhelming response. Even if in the local area, IAF should pound the PLA positions, coupled with artillery & mbrl response.

Our habit of proportional response is why Pak & Chinis keep poking us.

[nam]

Biggest concern is our proportional response nonsense. If PLA keeps PLAAF away from the fight, we will similarly keep IAF. PLA can bring in higher volume of fire and have large number of counter battery radar deployment.

Unless IAF is asked to knock off PLA artillery position, we cannot stop their attacks.

[sajo]

Press Trust of India
@PTI_News
·
6m
I compliment IAF for swift action near LAC during recent unfortunate incident: Defence Minister Rajnath Singh

Sirs, would he be referring to Medical evacuation? The terms unfortunate incident are used, instead of action some such term.

[rajpa]

It fits in nicely with their Sunshoo philosophy of winning without fighting. But it actually served the purpose of keeping the borders relatively inactive for a long time.

It goes far deeper than that. Its part of their historical salami slicing tactics they have used even against the Soviets in the '50s. If you look up some historical records of that conflict - the Great Hans used similar barbarian weapons - the Soviets then resorted to using some sort of sharp modified pitch-forks with long handles to prod these "warriors" and keep them a 'pitch-fork' length away. There are old black & white pics of Soviet troops armed with these modified tools.

Notwithstanding all that - they did suddenly resort to ambush with small-arms and killed some Soviets IIRC, in an incident in the '50s

Salami slicing itself is a Sunshoo diabolical tactic of winning without fighting.

Sugarlanders will continue implementing Sunshoo tactics even after the harsh lessons they have learnt from the Russians and us. Because they are intellectually bankrupt from following empty vessels such as Mao, Deng and Xi.

[SSridhar]

This is the crucial point we need to keep in mind. Chinis will carry out another ambush in some form. They are hardly 200-300 mtrs from some of our positions. We should not be stupid enough to limit our response to small arms or localized artillery.

We got to give back an overwhelming response. Even if in the local area, IAF should pound the PLA positions, coupled with artillery & mbrl response.

Our habit of proportional response is why Pak & Chinis keep poking us.

Completely agree.

[pankajs]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=L81-aywdbEw
'Xi Jinping Is Risking Everything For Success In Ladakh'

[Larry Walker]

The news that PLA theatre in Ladakh is now directly managed by 2nd in command in CMC means that it would no longer possible for XiPing to distance himself from any outcome in this theatre. Now it will look silly for XiPing to go hard for some small piece of land - but it will make more sense if he ties this to his grand vision of reclaiming back all imaginary Chinese land. My fear is that Chinks will now open up Arunachal/Sikkim front and make it a full blown conflict so that it looks nationalistic and at the same time they can bring to fore their full MIC and put India at a disadvantage.