India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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chola
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chola » 11 Sep 2020 17:42

pankajs wrote:
pankajs wrote:The 1959 offer is not really an offer even on its own. It is just a way to entice India to the table and plug the drift in the relationship in with a show of "concession".

Only to give China time till they are ready to stike a decisive blow on India.

Ploy to buy time while keeping India neutral til they are ready for us.


But is does seem to suggest that leadership in China does accept it's recent push as a tactical blunder. Of course Xi/China can do not wrong.

The Chinese might want to buy peace for a few weeks to a few months or a few years but they are going to come after Indian sooner or later. India needs to start preparing in earnest for a decisive battle on the LAC within a decade plus skirmishes in between.

The Chinese absolutely hold to their saying "One Mountain Cannot Contain Two Tigers" as an article of faith.


Preparing for the future with Cheen in LAC almost certainly means dealing with a far more powerful presence of the chini army.

They had 3 brigades or about 21K in all of Tibet during Doklam to 50K on the Ladakh region alone now. Who knows what we'll see in the future.

The decisive battle should have been fought during Doklam or immediately after the ambush of 16 Bihar. Those points in time would have ended in Indian victories based strictly on manpower and aircraft numbers without even taking into consideration quality or experience. Exchanging the time for battle when we had massive numercial advantages to one years down the line when they have built up is decreasing the odds of success not increasing them.

At any rate, we are looking at LOC redux now. Mobile warfare should have taken place before defensive infrastructure and manpower buildup were put in place.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 11 Sep 2020 17:44

Vivekmehta, that should be "Chini OCCUPIED territory". The whole area with Aksai Hind belongs to India. Lets be very careful and use the correct terms.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vivekmehta » 11 Sep 2020 17:50

amar_p wrote:Vivekmehta, that should be "Chini OCCUPIED territory". The whole area with Aksai Hind belongs to India. Lets be very careful and use the correct terms.


corrected

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 11 Sep 2020 17:51

Worth mentioning it is ultimately Xi's call on whether to ask Western Theatre Command 2* to implement the accords reached between the 2 military's. GOI is skeptical at this stage...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby mody » 11 Sep 2020 18:01

The status quo on the LAC has changed since India's action from 27th of August onwards.
Prior to that, the Chinese were offering us the options to either accept the new ground positions that they had occupied as a fait accompli or resort to use of force to push them back.

Now, due to our actions, we have made some their ground positions as untenable, which means that either they have to move back, which they won't do without us moving back as well. We would agree to move back, only if the complete status quo ante, as existed in April 2020 or prior is restored.
The other option for the Chinese is the use of force.
Xitler and his hordes would love to exercise the the force option, if the odds were heavily stacked in their favour. Xi has personally overseen the transformation of the PLA, with a lot of downsizing of the manpower, change to theater command force structure, a lot more mechanization, along with a greater emphasis on the air and naval power.
They would want nothing more then to test out some of their new toys. However, now realize that IA is present in full force, with the full backing of the civilian government and the civilian government also holding firm.
Maybe PLA should have tried this kind of misadventure with some of their smaller neighbours like some central asian replublic or Mongolia or Phillipines. Against any other country the pampered PLA brats would have a tough fight on their hands.

Focus upto now has been to try and decipher China's motives in this misadventure. Now, the focus should shift to what we wish to accomplish from the current situation.
Simply restoring the status quo ante and going back to positions before April 2020 should not be acceptable. If the Chinese are ready to move back, then we should seize that sign of weakness to push for a more permanent solution on the border.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vips » 11 Sep 2020 18:07

Pangong Fingers hot up: Scramble for heights as PLA men mass on ridge, India sends more troops.

Indian troops are being deployed in large numbers along the Finger 3 ridgeline on the north bank of Pangong Tso in Ladakh where the PLA build-up has increased significantly in the last 48 hours as the Chinese seek to move further west of Finger 4. The Chinese moves on the north bank — PLA troops have been on the Finger 4 ridgeline ever since May after coming in 8 km west of Finger 8 which India says marks the Line of Actual Control — is seen as an attempt to wrest the advantage after Indian troops occupied dominating heights on the stretch from the south bank of the lake to Rechin La near Rezang La on August 29-30.

Sources said the Chinese, who never vacated the Finger 4 ridgeline even after agreeing to total disengagement, massed close to 2,000 soldiers on the upper reaches of the ridge Tuesday night. Observing the Chinese troop movement, India also moved to mirror the deployment, sending almost the same number of troops to the Finger 3 ridgeline.

A government source said Thursday that the situation remains tense and less than 500 metres separate troops of the two sides.

“Forces on either side are armed. All are within shooting range and the line of sight is clear on the upper reaches. The weather too is harsh during the night. The challenge is to keep the troops calm,” the source said. A second official said the PLA has not brought extra troops to the region but gathered troops scattered across the mother ridge at Finger 4.

Image

A government source said Thursday that the situation remains tense and less than 500 metres separate troops of the two sides.
Troops of both sides are on the ridgeline that connects Fingers 3 and 4, or on the “knuckles” from where the finger-like spurs slope into the lake. The Finger 4 knuckle is called Green Top, and it is where the PLA troops are stationed. From this position, they have a dominant view of India’s Dhan Singh Thapa Post, just west of Finger 3, near the base.

About 1 km north of Green Top is another height called Pimple. The PLA has occupied this as well. The knuckle of Finger 3 is around 1 km northwest from Pimple, and this is the stretch where the situation is tense, according to sources in the security establishment.

Sources said Indian forces have been trying to get to the top of Finger 3, but are being prevented by the large number of PLA troops close to it. Indian troops, sources said, have made at least two attempts over the last few days to dominate the top of Finger 3, only to come up against a show of flags by PLA troops.

Army sources maintained that India is in a dominant position as it has occupied heights to the north and west of PLA positions.

A senior Army officer said, “some strength enhancement is obvious, because we are sitting on greater heights”. He said Chinese troops are occupying the Finger 4 ridgeline at four different heights, and that “we have also occupied multiple features and are dominating”.

A source said: “The assessment was that sooner than later, the Chinese would descend to cut off our access to Dhan Singh Thapa Post. We had to make sure they were blocked. Now along the entire Finger 3 ridge, Indian troop strength has been increased at different places to match the Chinese. Even on the mother ridge, we have increased our strength.”

Pngong tso, india china standoff, india china border dispute, chinese army, indian army, india china talks, indian express A scenic view of Pangong lake in ladakh can be seen through a small tower of stones collected by tourists on the banks of pangong lake. Over the past few weeks, tensions between india and china have risen along the line of actual control.

“We are also holding some positions of great advantage above Finger 3. From some of these, we have a clear sight of Fingers 6 and 7 which are currently under Chinese control. Earlier, these fell in the shadow area for us,” the source said.

Another official said, “The situation needs concerted efforts at de-escalation, which are already being made. However, the commander-level and brigade-level talks are not producing results. Largely, the two sides keep repeating their stand and the PLA shows no intention of scaling down. If some headway is made in diplomatic talks, another Corps Commander-level meeting may be in the offing.”

There has been no progress on the ground in Ladakh since mid-July after some initial disengagement in Galwan Valley and distancing of troops in the Hot Springs-Gogra Post area. Since then, the PLA has increased its strength, both in terms of manpower and artillery, at all friction points.

There has also been considerable ingress in the Depsang Plains where the Chinese have cut off Indian access to traditional patrolling points.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 11 Sep 2020 18:12

Wang Yi and S Jaishankar are friends ...

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P1T8Rbr4Cgc
India Puts China On Notice In Ladakh, EAM Level Talks Scheduled For Later Today | CNN News18

Start @ 3:50 mins ... There was {Or IS ... If it was then someone must have pulled it down, certainly not the Chinese.} a powerful camera on the Black top that could read name plates of vehicles on the Pangang tso area {and presumably around the Chushul bowl}. There are other cameras around including at Sirijap.

India knows where those cameras and has taken counter measures and has deployed its own cameras.

04:25] At the north bank PLA tries to take the area between F3/4 with 1500-2000 troops and India responded with equal measure in the last 2 days .. both sides continue to sit at that top and India is not budging at all ..
Meaning ... Last part

1. India is at F4/3 Knuckle, identified earlier, within shooting distance of each other.

2. India too has inducted a fir bit of troop in the area or on the F3 ridge.

Gels with the IE reported posted earlier by someone.

Plus one of the commentrator @ 10:30: The Rafale induction is OPERATIONAL induction of Rafale that means it has ready for dhamal with its Hammer and Scalp, etc.

The arrival of the French defense minister should not be taken at face value. She is a civil servant with Industry background ... Her coming with a entourage including industry people is to bring us more Rafale {Negotiate or make a fresh pitch for more Rafale}

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pushkar.bhat » 11 Sep 2020 18:33

The 4 months stalemate and the tactical move by IA to secure heights in Chushul is a setback for the PLA. PERIOD.

They have tried to bully and know that we will not allow them to push us around. The fact that their access to the 4th largest economy now stands curtailed will not hurt in 2-months but will hurt in the medium to long term as alternates are created. Remember anything that landed in from china over the last few months was ordered well before the last quarter.

Xi Jinping's single handed decimation of Chinese DIgital platforms has no precedence. He has effectively destroyed TikTok as well as other platforms like WeChat and PUBG as America and Europe follow suite from India.

Even if the PLA does some tactical actions here and there, the sheen has been lost for good and they look like looser specially since this is now not looking like a one-off specially if once considers Dokhlam as the first time. Generalismo Zhao Zonqi should ideally quietly retire so as to keep his pension and honor intact. Maj Gen Liu Lin & Maj Gen Qu Xinyong can quitely be made the scapegoats and sent to the re-education camp for selling the emporor's goat in the Lhasa Weekly goat market.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 11 Sep 2020 18:44

Practically no way to trust them even if they behead xitler. This is a country and civilization that can't be trusted as long as it has any weapons. One just can't think in terms of xi has lost face, has nothing to show for, etc. Dealing with chinese is same as dealing with islamic terrorists. Defeats have no meaning to them. Leadership changes mean no changes. Replacement of xi will still be from the same cult and DNA. Just like islamic terrorism hasn't gone away, hans won't go away.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vips » 11 Sep 2020 19:03

Who is going to replace Xi? He has total power and nobody including the entire politburo can challenge or stop him. It is really scary that if Xi in frustration of not being able to impose his writ on India takes any step there are no checks and balances to stop china's own long time ruin.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rajpa » 11 Sep 2020 19:05

Reading Gobar Times is actually not a total waste of time. While it is true that almost all of the statements issued by the Chinese in general and Gobar in particular are copy-paste of allegations made against them, some insights/heartfelt whines do slip out from their side.

for example:
China takes a defensive position, but India is trying to connect the China-India border conflicts with Indo-Pacific geopolitics, [snip]...


This statement actually gives out an indication of their state of mind. First of all the deception, that they want to appear defensive comes out of this statement.

Secondly, Sugarpeeps have always objected to connecting the border conflict with good relations between the two countries. Why? Because this simply puts a complete stop to the only game they know how to play - salami slicing - sunshoo's capturing territory without fighting. Now that India has alerted the whole world to this encroach/cockroach behavior, they are firmly caught redhanded and left with no other strategy to use.

So they whine about it.

Cutting out the rhetoric from GT will give you the whines of the CCP which is an insight into their thought process.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 11 Sep 2020 19:22

Reading the " Garbage Times" is a sheer waste of life-time.It is nothing but toilet paper propaganda aimed at gullible barbarians, right now at our country in the hope that we will cower down and mew like scaredy cats. There are only two words that we must send to the shitworms of Zhongnanhai," Bugger Orf!",or if they claim not to understand the Queen's English ,the American equivalent, " **** Off!"

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 11 Sep 2020 19:37

chola wrote:Preparing for the future with Cheen in LAC almost certainly means dealing with a far more powerful presence of the chini army.

They had 3 brigades or about 21K in all of Tibet during Doklam to 50K on the Ladakh region alone now. Who knows what we'll see in the future.

The decisive battle should have been fought during Doklam or immediately after the ambush of 16 Bihar. Those points in time would have ended in Indian victories based strictly on manpower and aircraft numbers without even taking into consideration quality or experience. Exchanging the time for battle when we had massive numercial advantages to one years down the line when they have built up is decreasing the odds of success not increasing them.

At any rate, we are looking at LOC redux now. Mobile warfare should have taken place before defensive infrastructure and manpower buildup were put in place.

Most certainly and Indian Army too will be a far more powerful force in the future but the gap between forces will keep shrinking.

The Gap between Indian and Chinese was widest in 2014 after about 10 years of neglect during the UPA era. The gap will keep narrowing with time henceforth.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 11 Sep 2020 20:25

pankajs wrote:
chola wrote:Preparing for the future with Cheen in LAC almost certainly means dealing with a far more powerful presence of the chini army.

The Gap between Indian and Chinese was widest in 2014 after about 10 years of neglect during the UPA era. The gap will keep narrowing with time henceforth.


Somehow, i agree with Chola. Economically it will be too costly and waste of finance in LOC fied LAC. We could have made a quick border war during Doklam or Galwan and get back that strategic points to prevent further ingress at any point in future all along the LAC , in both the instances we are numerically in good numbers. But Govt/IA had not taken that obvious decision.

May be we don know something that Govt/Army known for all the time.
May be govt/army had started just recently to treat Chinese as Pakistanis. In other words, Chinese are coming to the New Normal(just like PA came to know three or four years ago).

Either way, i am happy with the way things are handled still now on this issue.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 11 Sep 2020 20:41

Looks like IA is on a higher alert following the Moscow confab ...

https://twitter.com/TheWolfpackIN/statu ... 0330520576
Report: Number of Indian troops forward deployed in eastern Ladakh has been doubled in the past few days.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jarita » 11 Sep 2020 20:43

Philip wrote:Reading the " Garbage Times" is a sheer waste of life-time.It is nothing but toilet paper propaganda aimed at gullible barbarians, right now at our country in the hope that we will cower down and mew like scaredy cats. There are only two words that we must send to the shitworms of Zhongnanhai," Bugger Orf!",or if they claim not to understand the Queen's English ,the American equivalent, " **** Off!"


I think Gobar times is entirely focused on Indian audiences. How did we ever lose any territory to these things? Shame on us.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chola » 11 Sep 2020 20:47

* Self-edited *

Reply did not quite turn out the way I wanted it.
Last edited by chola on 11 Sep 2020 21:14, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby bharathp » 11 Sep 2020 20:58

chola wrote:
pankajs wrote:Most certainly and Indian Army too will be a far more powerful force in the future but the gap between forces will keep shrinking.

The Gap between Indian and Chinese was widest in 2014 after about 10 years of neglect during the UPA era. The gap will keep narrowing with time henceforth.


How can we possibly be more powerful in the future than the 10 to 1 manpower advantage we had on the chini border until the recent buildup?

I guess you are talking about the overall military. I've been on BRF for two decades and in all those years I've always heard people saying that our gap will narrow in the future. We always forget that we had a massive advantage on the border but always talked about the overall military without understanding fully the MIC equation in all this.

How do we see the gap closing? When they had no carriers in 2010 but two comissioned and a third, a CATOBAR, building today. They had no large transports back then but they are pumping out Y-20s by the scores today. Where are our CATOBAR and transport programs? They are pumping out late mark fighters (J-10C, J-16, J-20 and soon J-31) by the hundreds from their MIC while IAF squadron stength is down to 30 from a 42 number target.

The ugly truth is the gap will probably widen for the foreseeable future rather than close as more and more chini projects come online. My god, they had no LHDs just two years ago and now they have three. We've been talking about our LHDs or MRSVs for years upon years without anything tangible. How can we expect to catch up this way?


we cant. we should close our military and leave the place and go home onlee. also keep shivering in the dhothi inside the home as well.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chola » 11 Sep 2020 21:09

^^^ Passing up on current advantages and leaving the fight to a later time when the gap is "closed" is a form of passive aggressive doti-shaking!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 11 Sep 2020 21:16

chola wrote:
pankajs wrote:Most certainly and Indian Army too will be a far more powerful force in the future but the gap between forces will keep shrinking.

The Gap between Indian and Chinese was widest in 2014 after about 10 years of neglect during the UPA era. The gap will keep narrowing with time henceforth.


How can we possibly be more powerful in the future than the 10 to 1 manpower advantage we had on the chini border until the recent buildup?

I guess you are talking about the overall military. I've been on BRF for two decades and in all those years I've always heard people saying that our gap will narrow in the future. We always forget that we had a massive advantage on the border but always talked about the overall military without understanding fully the MIC equation in all this.

How do we see the gap closing? When they had no carriers in 2010 but two comissioned and a third, a CATOBAR, building today. They had no large transports back then but they are pumping out Y-20s by the scores today. Where are our CATOBAR and transport programs? They are pumping out late mark fighters (J-10C, J-16, J-20 and soon J-31) by the hundreds from their MIC while IAF squadron stength is down to 30 from a 42 number target.

The ugly truth is the gap will probably widen for the foreseeable future rather than close as more and more chini projects come online. My god, they had no LHDs just two years ago and now they have three. We've been talking about our LHDs or MRSVs for years upon years without anything tangible. How can we expect to catch up this way?

1. We have a massive advantage in what capabilities? Defensive or offensive? From what little I know we are massively geared towards defense and perhaps can execute salami slicing to pay back the Chinese apart from defeating them on the LAC. All the while there hasn't been any major induction of new Arty so far and is only starting to happen now. Future will only be better for the land forces.

2. There is MIC but whose MIC is stronger, Indian or Chinese right now or in the past?

3. Shift to Carriers when discussing situation on the LAC! There is something called asymmetric warfare. So while they might be able to churn out Carriers we should be able to churn out BrahmosNG and other variants that will allows us to hit carrier from far.

4. We are ramping up ISR capabilities where the Chinese still have a big lead over India.

4. S-400/LR-SAM/MR-SAM, etc should be good enough to keep AWACS and Y-20s far back into the Chinese territory.

In a defensive battle, one does not need to match the enemy weapon for weapon plus we should opt for asymmetric capabilities. We don't have the needs of an expeditionary force either on land or the Sea in the near future.

The truth is that the Gap on the LAC was the widest in 2014 and has been improving steadily and will continue to improve as new weapon systems are inducted and infrastructure is being built.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 11 Sep 2020 21:34

Jarita wrote:
Philip wrote:Reading the " Garbage Times" is a sheer waste of life-time.It is nothing but toilet paper propaganda aimed at gullible barbarians, right now at our country in the hope that we will cower down and mew like scaredy cats. There are only two words that we must send to the shitworms of Zhongnanhai," Bugger Orf!",or if they claim not to understand the Queen's English ,the American equivalent, " **** Off!"


I think Gobar times is entirely focused on Indian audiences. How did we ever lose any territory to these things? Shame on us.


seriously how many read gobar times in india?? curious. I was reading a chini saying..keep on pressing the knife till u meet steel ( or something similar). i beleive that they met steel this time. I am sure there will be small tactical actions on the heights during winter.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 11 Sep 2020 21:43

pankajs wrote:
chola wrote:
How can we possibly be more powerful in the future than the 10 to 1 manpower advantage we had on the chini border until the recent buildup?

I guess you are talking about the overall military. I've been on BRF for two decades and in all those years I've always heard people saying that our gap will narrow in the future. We always forget that we had a massive advantage on the border but always talked about the overall military without understanding fully the MIC equation in all this.

How do we see the gap closing? When they had no carriers in 2010 but two comissioned and a third, a CATOBAR, building today. They had no large transports back then but they are pumping out Y-20s by the scores today. Where are our CATOBAR and transport programs? They are pumping out late mark fighters (J-10C, J-16, J-20 and soon J-31) by the hundreds from their MIC while IAF squadron stength is down to 30 from a 42 number target.

.


I am being in this forum as lurker from 2006. In 2008- There was overwhelming view in this same forum about our superior naval capability with regard to China. Same with any possible of china intruding from ladakh side..etc
To some extent i can tell, the views in those times here will be more Anti-America than Anti-China.

Everything changes and also the perception and threat level. The dark period of 2004-2014 cannot be recovered. But with every year , the threat level from China will only increase(not decrease).

The best time to settle India- Pakistan issue is 1948 - We missed
The next best time is 1965 - We missed - The struggle/effort would have been less, when compared to 1972
The next best time is 1972 - We missed - Again no nuclear BS, only pure power.
The next best time is 1999 Kargil - We missed - No nuclear(at least overtly)
Now - We have all the mess like nuclear thing, Paki-Chine linking etc.
The messing will only increase with time, unless we invented some serious asymmetry to the level of nuclear bomb (in world war time).

Wars will go more messy with passage of time, the best time for the war is yesterday(if missed, it should be today at best).
There is no use shifting the struggle to next generation indefinitely.

Sure, the mindset of 70 years cannot be changed in one day. In that sense i am happy with the current govt is taking some proactive steps with regard to both Western and Eastern sector. But we should quickly settle one sector at least(may be western sector of POK) and start concentrate big time internally with regard to deporting illegal immigration of Bangladeshis, Rohingyas etc, The population jihad happening in Mewat, many districts of WB and Assam, War lever religious conversions in South and now a days in Punjap and Maharashtra etc..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 11 Sep 2020 21:48

This "we are missing last bus to beat up spatula armed Chinese in the Himalayas" has to stop at some point.

Since siachen started in 1978, pakis have inducted nucular weapons, nucular missiles, badmash/dus%/dimmy/pirni/mushy, Colin Powell, 80 odd Effsolahs, 500 AMRAAMs, 150 Thundarss, Agostas (with handicap parking permits), Erieyes, IL 78s,100s of surplus Bradleys, Turkish prop-UAVs etc. And they have shown enough foolishness to let go of economic sense and instead pick up serious fire fights with India and for zero strategic objectives.

But to this day, Siachen is way out of reach for them, thanks to hard fighting men from all parts of India, who wait patiently for decades in the snow for them to show up. So how exactly are a squadron of Y20 going to airdrop a CATOBAR carrier on top of these lads heads? Piece by piece or underslung as a single piece by 18 Y20s?

This incessant scaremongering on behalf of China has to stop.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 11 Sep 2020 21:59

hnair wrote:This "we are missing last bus to beat up spatula armed Chinese in the Himalayas" has to stop at some point.

Since siachen started in 1978, pakis have inducted nucular weapons, nucular missiles, badmash/dus%/dimmy/pirni/mushy, Colin Powell, 80 odd Effsolahs, 500 AMRAAMs, 150 Thundarss, Agostas (with handicap parking permits), Erieyes, IL 78s,100s of surplus Bradleys, Turkish prop-UAVs etc. And they have shown enough foolishness to let go of economic sense and instead pick up serious fire fights with India and for zero strategic objectives.

But to this day, Siachen is way out of reach for them, thanks to hard fighting men from all parts of India, who wait patiently for decades in the snow for them to show up. So how exactly are a squadron of Y20 going to airdrop a CATOBAR carrier on top of these lads heads? Piece by piece or underslung as a single piece by 18 Y20s?

This incessant scaremongering on behalf of China has to stop.


Siachin is one off tactical level operation.

Sir ji, I am neither war mongering not scare mongering. But war is also a business were decisions like place and time needs to be taken in cold and calculated way. 70 years, we had not solved the issue of POK or Aksai Chin, i can understand with regard to Aksai chin but our political leadership should have at least started closing the issue with regard to POK. in this 70 years there would be hundreds of times that pakistan would be sitting ducks, we should have used that time to settle scores and get back the territories. But we are rather forced to fight war with them at the time and place of their choosing(71 we postponed the inevitable by few months) .

I feel we are happy with this chaltha hai attitude always. unless our back is on fire we are not even planning the escape route. This direction has to come from Political Head, that leadership is missing all this days. With the current govt showing a bit of that leadership, the expectation will only get increase.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Lohit » 11 Sep 2020 22:08

Jarita wrote:
How did we ever lose any territory to these things? Shame on us.


Power of 1 Bn group of united Hans under commies vs 10 Mn * 100 groupings of Indians divided by state, caste, language, religion, dialect, political party, etc etc

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rsingh » 11 Sep 2020 22:10

IA has to train YAKS to destroy Chinese cameras. They get a treat per camera destroyed. Bufellos are very strong and methodic. :mrgreen:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VikramS » 11 Sep 2020 22:13

There is a law of diminishing returns in any area.

And warfare is often asymmetric.

The PLAN is now larger than USN. However, just having those ships will not be enough. A single squadron of Brahmos armed MKIs can take out an entire PLAN task force from hundreds of miles, unless the PLAN can provide a defensive bubble which stretch so far.

PLAGF wants to use drones instead of human to fight the mountain war; a simple low end radar with a mated guns can take down the entire swarm (Armed drones to be effective need to be bigger and the high altitude requires greater power to lift weight).

Right now the platinum edge of the Indian Armed forces can be an advantage. And that is what has helped maintain the status-quo along with the mettle of theIndian Armed Forces.

However in a longer war, the MIC will come into picture.

This is where India has a disadvantage, and really needs to catch up.

If I were making the calls I would do the following:

Invest in reducing the holding cost of the LAC.

  • Invest in 12 month roads so that the cost of transportation to the base of the mountain is low
  • Develop solutions to keep paths to the top of the ridge line open during winter. Smaller ATVs, snow shovelers, high altitude optimized engines
  • Develop Drones to supply the more inaccessible positions
  • Develop huts and other shelter protection
  • Develop a Piping System which can pump up water, fuel and other fluids up/down the mountains to the base. (smaller PVC pipes inside a larger protective pipe layer)

Invest heavily in building up the domestic MIC to be able to fight a long war; Investment here can help lift the economy.

  • Get Private Sector Players who can reach out to foreign partners for collaboration
  • Guarantee minimum order levels
  • Have an Arms Export policy which has transparency to allow India to become a manufacturing Hub for export oriented arm
  • Focus not on the tip of the spear but the body: Rifles, Artillery, Mountain Vehicles, Radars, Helicopters, Transportation vehicles


India should be in a position to take the war to the Chinese side of the LAC. That is when the real negotiations will happen.

Do realize that any talk of freeing Tibet/Xianjing means a mobile army with a strong protective cover, AND the ability to hold back the full-force of the CCP which will retaliate: On the oceans, on the cyber-space, In space.

After all for the CCP it will be a matter of survival. If they lose big chunks of territory their reason to exist will be over. This also means that within China there have to be forces which can take over and provide a new order if the hold of the CCP is diminishing. The last thing anyone wants is the war going nuclear as the desperate CCP clings to power.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 11 Sep 2020 22:48

For those who are shivering, in 10 years there could be a very different govt at the centre. Anything can happen in a functioning democracy.

If you have listened to our current leaders, they are totally against kicking the can down the road. They are fully capable of doing whatever needs to be done to defang the Chinese threat NOW, and they intend to.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jay » 11 Sep 2020 23:10

RajaRudra wrote:We could have made a quick border war.


We have no or very limited way to ensure that this will only be a "quick border war".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby suryag » 11 Sep 2020 23:24

There was so much hawa about Gen.Zhao Zhonqi, some folks called him hotshot etc I dont know where all that bravado went, which re-education camp did he get admission to ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nachiket » 11 Sep 2020 23:31

Jay wrote:
RajaRudra wrote:We could have made a quick border war.


We have no or very limited way to ensure that this will only be a "quick border war".

Indeed. It is important not to follow the concept of "tactical brilliance" pioneered by our western neighbors.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby williams » 11 Sep 2020 23:35

At this point, there are three military options we have.

1. Just accept the current border as a fait accompli. That means to implement in spirit whatever the Chinese and EAM agreed by pulling the troops back reciprocally. Except we are pulling back from the Chinese perspective of the LAC and the Chinese are pulling back from their perspective of LAC. Which we could have done long before. So I am hoping against hope we should not be doing that.

2. Continue the stalemate and keep the border hot with tactical maneuvering where possible and building a good logistics line to support it. It should be backed by better rules of engagement. No more fighting with clubs and swords. Also no more business of not crossing the LAC. It is going to cost us more, but it is not going to sink us. Follow this by more economic sanctions and building up our own MIC.

3. Go for a full-fledged shooting war with limited objectives. Just use whatever assets (Air, Artillery, Mechanised, Special forces, etc) to push them back to a point where we can keep the DSDBO road and access to Karakoram pass safe and their strategic roads in our line of sight to avoid any future maneuvers similar to this one. We should cross current LAC in the northern sector to a limited extent. We should be prepared for a full scale escalation in the sea and possible Chinese use of rocket forces short of a nuclear exchange. I believe this achievable, since we are not going to liberate Tibet or going all the way to kunlun range in Ladakh.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 11 Sep 2020 23:39

Gen Zhao Zhongqi is more a threat to Xitler than us, If he is half the hot shot he claims to be. It is in best interest of Xitler to not let Gen Zhongqi get glory.

So the Bo Xilai incident will be weighing heavy on the General’s mind as he meditates on ancient Sunday TSue strategies in his oxygen tent.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 11 Sep 2020 23:50

It appears that the Chinese have moved their forces (I'm guessing mostly armour/ mech forces) closer to the LAC in the last 10 days, they are now ~12km from the LAC (along chipchap river). Some or most of them were stationed in a camp 12km behind and have moved up.
https://apps.sentinel-hub.com/sentinel- ... ates=false

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby AshishA » 11 Sep 2020 23:52

hnair wrote:Gen Zhao Zhongqi is more a threat to Xitler than us, If he is half the hot shot he claims to be. It is in best interest of Xitler to not let Gen Zhongqi get glory.

So the Bo Xilai incident will be weighing heavy on the General’s mind as he meditates on ancient Sunday TSue strategies in his oxygen tent.


Maybe all of this is a way to put the PLA down to remove them as a future threat? Just as Deng Xiaoping did to PLA in Vietnam invasion. I see a inner party struggle angle to this.
Last edited by AshishA on 11 Sep 2020 23:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Y I Patel » 11 Sep 2020 23:53

The 5-point joint statement demolishes a great myth that has been built over decades: that India should be fearful of provoking China. If China was truly provoked, what India did on the Kailash Range should have resulted in nothing short of an all-out war. After all, India reoccupied a range that cost the PLA hundreds to a thousand plus lives in 1962, and here is India reversing all of that without firing a shot! What we see, in reality, is a China bending over backwards to prove that India's occupation of the Kailash range is just a trifling disagreement that should not be allowed to escalate to a dispute, in keeping with the consensus arrived at by the leaders of the two countries. We can outrage over the language that says both sides should withdraw and not violate existing agreements, but doesn't that quite clearly contradict what the Chinese have been saying all this time about India's sole responsibility in provoking this crisis?

Any subsequent action by China, including probes against India's new positions will mean that they are the ones responsible for aggravating the situation. India is entitled to consolidate until a withdrawal agreement is reached, just as the Chinese have been doing in Finger 4 over the last few months. Equal equal has reared its head, Chai-Biskoot has arrived in the abode of Shankar Bhagwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby williams » 12 Sep 2020 00:04

Y I Patel wrote:The 5-point joint statement demolishes a great myth that has been built over decades: that India should be fearful of provoking China. If China was truly provoked, what India did on the Kailash Range should have resulted in nothing short of an all-out war. After all, India reoccupied a range that cost the PLA hundreds to a thousand plus lives in 1962, and here is India reversing all of that without firing a shot! What we see, in reality, is a China bending over backwards to prove that India's occupation of the Kailash range is just a trifling disagreement that should not be allowed to escalate to a dispute, in keeping with the consensus arrived at by the leaders of the two countries. We can outrage over the language that says both sides should withdraw and not violate existing agreements, but doesn't that quite clearly contradict what the Chinese have been saying all this time about India's sole responsibility in provoking this crisis?

Any subsequent action by China, including probes against India's new positions will mean that they are the ones responsible for aggravating the situation. India is entitled to consolidate until a withdrawal agreement is reached, just as the Chinese have been doing in Finger 4 over the last few months. Equal equal has reared its head, Chai-Biskoot has arrived in the abode of Shankar Bhagwan.


We have not reversed anything sir, we are just doing defensive maneuvers to avoid any further Chinese mischief. Something we should have done long before in here and in other areas. This 5 point agreement is not an agreement. It is just a diplomatic statement of intent. The danger here is the Chinese stepping forward 3 steps and going back 1 step. We have to watch this very carefully.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Sep 2020 00:12

WTF. All that to fight a paper dragon.

Even Pakistan is worthier opponent. If a man is known by his enemies, India needs to start looking.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 12 Sep 2020 00:40

Deleted
Last edited by suryag on 12 Sep 2020 00:51, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please post relevancw/title for videos and avoid posting irrelevant videos

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby suryag » 12 Sep 2020 00:53

Williams Gurung and Magar tops were lost to PRC in the 62 conflict those are with us now


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