India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Thakur_B
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Thakur_B » 13 Sep 2020 14:55

putnanja wrote:Not sure how credible it is, but looks like there were fresh clashes on Friday night

Ladakh Standoff: Fresh clashes at Pangong Tso, Indian Army repulses PLA attack on Black Top


There are plenty of pro establishment reporters esp. Nitin Gokhale, who are maintaining the stance that Black Top is not in our posession apparently so as to maintain the veneer of not having breached LAC or just keeping the window open for withdrawal if Chinese agree to withdraw from Pangong Tso.

If we are not at Black top, then how can we repel attacks over there :lol:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Roop » 13 Sep 2020 14:58

https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/09/s-jaishankar-set-bottomline-amid-heated-talks.html

LAC face-off: Jaishankar set bottomline amid ‘heated’ talks with China

NEW DELHI: Foreign minister S Jaishankar plainly told his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, during the talks that ended late on Thursday evening in Moscow, that India would not de-escalate until there was complete and verifiable disengagement at all points on the LAC.

The talks, which got a little heated, saw Jaishankar setting out India’s bottom line — the overall India-China relationship will suffer if there is no peace on the border. Second, the "root cause" of the current crisis lay in Chinese forces breaching existing agreements with their massive build-up in April and May and transgressions that forced India to mirror positions and deployments.

Top sources here said the Indian mantra on the LAC would be "verifying" Chinese disengagement promises. In recent weeks, Chinese troops have repeatedly gone back on their commitments.


This is just an excerpt. There's more at the link.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kit » 13 Sep 2020 15:06

OT ..but just for fun :mrgreen:

https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/06/kali-everything-about-secret-beam-weapon-of-india.html

Why not aim the damn thing at Isloo and Pindi and settle them for all time :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Roop » 13 Sep 2020 15:06

Despite what Nitin Gokhale and Vishnu Som say, I am convinced that we do, in fact, have possession and control of Black Top as well as Helmet Top. Our public denials of that are just a negotiating position we (i.e. GoI) are taking for some chankian purpose.

To be clear, I am not accusing NG and VS of lying, I am saying that they are merely reporting what GoI sources are telling them. In times of war, or impending war, the govt is under no obligation to always publicly report "the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth".

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Rishirishi » 13 Sep 2020 15:12

Roop wrote:https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/09/s-jaishankar-set-bottomline-amid-heated-talks.html

LAC face-off: Jaishankar set bottomline amid ‘heated’ talks with China

NEW DELHI: Foreign minister S Jaishankar plainly told his Chinese counterpart, Wang Yi, during the talks that ended late on Thursday evening in Moscow, that India would not de-escalate until there was complete and verifiable disengagement at all points on the LAC.

The talks, which got a little heated, saw Jaishankar setting out India’s bottom line — the overall India-China relationship will suffer if there is no peace on the border. Second, the "root cause" of the current crisis lay in Chinese forces breaching existing agreements with their massive build-up in April and May and transgressions that forced India to mirror positions and deployments.

Top sources here said the Indian mantra on the LAC would be "verifying" Chinese disengagement promises. In recent weeks, Chinese troops have repeatedly gone back on their commitments.


This is just an excerpt. There's more at the link.



In my opinion the Chinese got what they wanted. That is a photo with Jaishankar and a statement which they falsely made of delinking economic and military issues. The CCP's greatest fear is loss of public sentiment. They really want to avoid negative news on the business front. Already thousands of Chinese industrialists are fleeing China. The Chinese industrialists are happy to move the factories out of china, to maintain their market share. If India ganged up with states like Vietnam, Phillippines, Indonesia, Japan and Australia to create a boycot list of products from China, it would send the gods fear to them. If or example Nike knows they cant sell shoes to such large markets, they may shift the entire production. It is already happening to a certain extent already.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 13 Sep 2020 15:48

Deleted as already posted.
Last edited by g.sarkar on 13 Sep 2020 16:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 13 Sep 2020 16:00

Rishirishi wrote:
Roop wrote:https://www.theindianhawk.com/2020/09/s-jaishankar-set-bottomline-amid-heated-talks.html

LAC face-off: Jaishankar set bottomline amid ‘heated’ talks with China



This is just an excerpt. There's more at the link.



In my opinion the Chinese got what they wanted. That is a photo with Jaishankar and a statement which they falsely made of delinking economic and military issues. The CCP's greatest fear is loss of public sentiment. They really want to avoid negative news on the business front. Already thousands of Chinese industrialists are fleeing China. The Chinese industrialists are happy to move the factories out of china, to maintain their market share. If India ganged up with states like Vietnam, Phillippines, Indonesia, Japan and Australia to create a boycot list of products from China, it would send the gods fear to them. If or example Nike knows they cant sell shoes to such large markets, they may shift the entire production. It is already happening to a certain extent already.


what prevents GOI for making a fresh statement stating their position with pic of jaishankar and modi on it? in fact i am advocating we should publicly have Aug30th as ' Manchurian Noddle pe Vijay diwas' or 'Slant eyed pe vijay diwas' ?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2020 16:10

Before foiling Chinese moves, India worked on plan for almost a month
Yet this operation to reach the unoccupied heights took almost a month of careful planning — from the drawing board to implementation on the field.

Plans for such a move, a source in the security establishment said, had the political go-ahead from Delhi because there was realisation there that Beijing was not serious about completing disengagement of troops.

After the success of Corps Commander-level talks on June 30 that led to withdrawal of troops at Patrol Point 14 in the Galwan Valley, hopes of full disengagement were high. But by July 14, the fourth round of talks, it was clear that China was not pulling back its troops fully from Gogra Post and Hot Spring areas, and the ridges of the Fingers area on the north bank of Pangong Tso.

When the August 2 meeting ended with China not even ready to accept it had violated Indian territory on Pangong Tso’s north bank, the Indian establishment realised that military action to wrest some tactical advantage was the only option.

A top source in the Army said “plans are always ready for all steps, and are shared with very few people”. “Planning does not start when talks fail,” and “forces prepare multiple plans”, keeping in mind that the outcome of talks can never be predicted. “When to get them into play is the question,” the source said.

The final plan, the source said, had been ready for over a fortnight before the action. “Two weeks before it happened, the seriousness about putting weight on this particular action started gaining. Then the ground commanders came here to give presentations.”

“The top brass and field officers sat with the drawing board. Chinese vulnerabilities were worked out vis-à-vis our own strength. Locations of tactical advantage were discussed. Strategies to achieve them were worked upon. Each and every move, to the last detail, was mapped. And just before the operations, reconnaissance was carried out. It took close to a month to do all this, in complete secrecy. With some luck on our side, it was achieved without too much fuss,” the source said.

A security establishment officer said each height on the south bank was assigned to a particular unit. “There were three forces at our disposal — the Special Frontier Force (SFF), the Indo-Tibetan Border Police (ITBP) and, of course, the Indian Army. Units were specifically picked to take over particular heights with SFF commandos leading at many places,” the officer said.


Sources said the operation – it extended to the night of August 30-31 — helped India take positions on heights surrounding Black Top and Helmet Top. “The Chinese continue to dominate Black Top and Helmet Top, but we have surrounded them on heights around it. Though perceptions of LAC differ, we are still on our side of the LAC,” an intelligence officer said.

What has riled China, the officer said, is India’s positions around Rezang La and Rechin La. “The positions we have taken in the Chushul sector on heights such as Magar Hill and Gurung Hill has exposed China’s Moldo garrison and the Spanggur Gap, strategically very important to China,” the officer said.

The Gurung Hill and Magar Hill are located north and south of the Spanggur Gap, and Indian positions can dominate the pass to effectively close it for any Chinese movement — in 1962, China had used the 2-km wide pass to launch an offensive against Indian forces.


It was in the Chushul sector that SFF soldier Nyima Tenzin lost his life during the August 29-30 operation when he stepped on a landmine while he and a younger colleague were moving ahead of the troops.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2020 16:17

Recommend reading this article from M.D. Nalapat in full.
Modi can repeat 1971 and ensure a 1962 in reverse
Beijing intends to take control of the entirety of the Himalayan massif, the South China Sea and Taiwan. There needs to be a military victory as in 1962, not a stalemate as in Vietnam in 1979. The South China Seas are crawling with naval craft of multiple countries, including India, and is at present therefore a difficult location to score a swift triumph. As for Taiwan, from almost the start of her first term in office, President Tsai Ing-wen has focused on linking her country to the US defence supply chain. Over the past four years, ties between Taipei and Washington have grown closer than at any time since President Richard M. Nixon threw Taiwan to the wolves in order to recruit Beijing in his campaign to weaken Moscow. It seems only a matter of time before Taipei enters into a formal security alliance with the US in the manner of Seoul and Tokyo. Ideally, such an alliance would be with the Quadrilateral Alliance, should that group of four countries graduate from a talking shop to a genuine security construct. Given the strategic essentiality of Taiwan remaining outside the grasp of China, it is certain that any attack on the island by the PLA would lead to countermoves by Japan and the US. The latter would, unless in a Biden Presidency the “kompromat” on Hunter Biden is radioactive, escalate the confrontation into other theatres, given the kinetic escalation dominance that the US armed forces enjoy over their counterpart in the PLA. Despite the chokehold that the PRC has over Russia at the present time, the Kremlin (especially under the geopolitical Grand Master Vladimir Putin) would be delighted to see the President of the US intensify moves against China. The farther apart Washington and Beijing are, the more room to breathe that Moscow has. As for India, in the absence of a clear understanding between India and the US about mutual security, the Himalayan massif seems to be the option offering a higher chance of a PLA success in 2021 than clearing the South China Sea of foreign navies by the PLA Navy or an attempted takeover or even blockade of Taiwan.

Given the risks to the CCP leadership in case there is a military setback (as would be the case were India to get logistical, tactical and intelligence support from other Quad members in the event of PLA aggression), it is unlikely that the Himalayan massif will be chosen as the next theatre for PRC expansionism were the 1971 precedent of a defensive treaty alliance to be followed by India, this time not with Moscow but with Washington and hopefully Tokyo and Canberra as well, besides in time Hanoi, Manila, Singapore, Jakarta and Muscat.

Thus far, Russia seems to have succeeded in its mission of keeping India from entering into a mutual security pact that involves the US. Besides helping China by such abstinence on the part of India, persuading Delhi to remain wedded to non-alignment works to the benefit of Moscow, in that a security treaty involving the US would give an advantage to that country’s weapons systems over the offerings of Russia in a market crucial to the health of the armaments industry in that giant country. There are leaders who play a strong hand poorly. Vladimir Putin plays a weak hand with spectacular success.

In 1971 as well, sceptics within the bureaucracy and the commentariat abounded in the matter of a pact with the USSR. Prime Minister Indira Gandhi went ahead with D.P. Dhar’s suggestion and in the process, changed both history as well as geography. Prime Minister Narendra Modi needs to study the history of the 1962 and 1971 conflicts. Beijing and Rawalpindi look forward to a repeat of 1962. Instead, what they should be served is a repeat of 1971, this time with the Line of Actual Control getting extended substantially across the western side, and fortified in strength on the eastern side. The Himalayan massif is the patrimony of the Indian subcontinent and smart policy based on reality rather than hope anchored to illusions can ensure that this come true once again.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2020 16:22

This is a point many had raised here on BRF.
Debate over ‘border areas’
Some military veterans have questioned the absence of references to the Line of Actual Control or the restoration of status quo ante in Friday’s joint India-China statement, wondering how the promised “disengagement” can be achieved without a mutually accepted position on the alignment of the LAC.

The vague phrase “border areas” has replaced the LAC in the “joint” media statement, issued after Thursday’s meeting between foreign ministers S. Jaishankar and Wang Yi in Moscow. The Chinese had issued a statement worded by them.

But former foreign secretary Nirupama Menon Rao detailed the background and added that “I do not believe that India has ‘given up’ reference to the LAC and is now content with usage of the term ‘border areas’ as a substitute”.

The countries agreed that the situation in the “border areas” was not in the interest of either side and that their troops should “continue their dialogue, quickly disengage, maintain proper distance and ease tensions”.

General V.P. Malik, the former army chief, on Saturday tweeted: “After Drawing Room 5-Point Understanding with all its diplomatic rhetoric has been made, the ball is back in military field. Wonder how ‘disengagement’ & ‘proper distancing’ possible without common ref pt (reference point) or mutually known LAC alignment. India must insist on delineation of LAC.”

Another veteran, Pravin Sawhney, asked why there was no mention in the statement of the LAC, the reference point for any restoration of status quo ante, which India has been demanding since May.

“It will now be open-ended in ‘Border Areas’ in future - winner takes it all,” Sawhney tweeted.

“Given (the) Chinese threat, India has agreed to call (the) LAC -- which external affairs ministry said in June was known to both sides -- Border Areas: an undefined zone with little left for Indian Military to defend. Our 1,000sqkm that PLA occupies can now be explained as within Border Areas!”

He added: “As I had said: No war; quick disengagement; PLA will not give up occupied territories; all mutual agreements since 1993 now applicable on ‘border areas’ instead of LAC since both sides disagree on its definition; de-escalation remains far cry; who won territory without fighting?”

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 13 Sep 2020 16:59

GOI has had very high level discussions with the bhutanese establishment over the last week. PLA is going to come after Bhutanese territory and Bhutanese military has been asked to go into alert/step up preparation.

All intel agencies have been told to support mil commander conversations that will take place likely next week.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 13 Sep 2020 17:23

Gobartimes now says they are not winning to prevent US from building a coalition against China

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Mandeepsajwan » 13 Sep 2020 17:57

Deleted
Last edited by Suraj on 13 Sep 2020 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Do NOT self promote your own site here

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 13 Sep 2020 18:05

Folks were dismissing Taiwan declaring freedom in case of a long Chinese Indian war. There is no guarantee ofcourse but it usually is the case that when one stands up to the bully then the others also stand up.

There is no guarantee that US will join...after a while.
There is no guarantee that Taiwan will declare freedom.
There is no guarantee that Pakistan will join China and this will drive a big wedge with the US.

All of these are calculated risks with reasonable chance of happening with the right incentive and situations. Our folks have to have atleast a informal discussion with the nations. For example if China attacks Vietnam, India will not hesitate to enter. You can't bring down an opponent if you are always thinking only about yourself. Folks familiar with how Mohammed used to keep the allies from joining together will be able to follow this by sowing distrust among each other. If the Banu Quraish and Meccans had joined without distrusting each other history would be different at Medina.


In a bold and sensational move, Taiwan shot down fighter aircraft of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China after it intruded into its airspace.

This courageous action by Taiwan comes after Chinese PLA aircraft made several incursions into Taiwanese airspace over the last few months.


Which is why it is important we dont enter into a quick negotiated settlement. Opposite of what Jaishankar is working towards.
Last edited by samirdiw on 13 Sep 2020 18:13, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 13 Sep 2020 18:13

samirdiw wrote:Folks were dismissing Taiwan declaring freedom in case of a long Chinese Indian war. There is no guarantee ofcourse but it usually is the case that when one stands up to the bully then the others also stand up.

In a bold and sensational move, Taiwan shot down fighter aircraft of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) of China after it intruded into its airspace.

This courageous action by Taiwan comes after Chinese PLA aircraft made several incursions into Taiwanese airspace over the last few months.


Which is why it is important we dont enter into a quick negotiated settlement. Opposite of what Jaishankar is working towards.

Why repost this fake news?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby srin » 13 Sep 2020 18:16

[quote="Mandeepsajwan"][/quote]

I'm sure you mean well, but why are you posting Google URLs to the site instead of directly referencing the Indian Hawk site ?

It also seems that Indian Hawk is your own site. So, it would be good to mention that this when posting the URLs, so we can discern appropriately.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 13 Sep 2020 18:18

abhik wrote:Why repost this fake news?


Apologies, i was not aware that news24online posts fake news. Must have missed the verification earlier in the chain.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 13 Sep 2020 18:18

samirdiw wrote:...


That "news" first came out around Sep. 4th, and has never been verified (aka - not true at all). Now you're reposting it with no source or attribution, and even drawing conclusions and philosophizing on it :shock: . Shooting down a fighter is not a small thing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2020 18:23

India and China are edging towards a more serious conflict
If Mr Xi is looking for ways to shore up his domestic credibility, then the puzzle is why the conflict is getting so little play at home. Another plausible hypothesis is that China is worried about the future of Tibet, with strengthening international support for its struggle for independence. India still hosts both the Dalai Lama and Tibet’s government in exile, and China may be exerting pressure to prevent interference.

It is exactly this uncertainty that makes the situation so risky. With winter approaching, it makes little sense for China to keep tens of thousands of troops camped on high mountains with temperatures plunging 20 to 30 degrees below zero. India responded with its own troop escalation. A high stakes game is clearly afoot.

We can no longer count on old assurances to prevent conflict. In modern warfare, harsh winters and difficult physical terrain are much less of barrier than they once were. If bitter weather did not deter the Red Army’s devastating counter-attacks on advancing German troops in 1941, it will be even less of a hurdle if China were able and inclined to execute missile attacks.[/b]

The Galwan Valley incident has turned public opinion in India virulently anti-China. This will make disengagement difficult. There is a growing consensus that New Delhi must be prepared to stand up to Beijing. Prime Minister Narendra Modi’s image will be severely dented at home if he does not craft a strong riposte. This leaves Mr Xi with two options: inflict the damage and brace for consequences or withdraw to pre-June positions and lose face. {What is meant by pre-June position? How significantly is it different from pre-April position?}
Last edited by Dilbu on 13 Sep 2020 18:25, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 13 Sep 2020 18:24

Wherever the chinese industrialists are fleeing, those countries need to shun them. They all eventually end up serving cause of mother ship as seen in Vietnam, Singapore, Malaysia, etc. Even after generations of staying there. Any country would be wise to avoid chinese moneybags flowing in.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2020 18:29

Despite modern artillery, the yak remains the beast of burden for PLA
Hyderabad: The Line of Actual Control between India and China is crackling with the movement of modern artillery on both sides but neither side can do without a humble animal, the mule on the Indian side and the yak on the Chinese. It's a dependency that dates back decades, prior to even the 1962 war.

Sources acquainted with developments on the frontier say the People's Liberation Army (PLA) is heavily dependent on yaks. In fact, it has a dedicated yak unit that transports men and material through impenetrable mountain passes.

Just like the Indian Army is dependent on mules and ponies, Chinese troops cannot do without yaks and they keep ‘recruit’ the best breeds, which happen to be Tibetan.

It's a multipurpose animal for the PLA. “PLA soldiers drink yak milk and eat yak butter, both highly nutritious. They are also cures for various ailments. Yak blood is high in protein and raw yak meat is highly nutritious,” a source said.

"Although the PLA soldiers kill and eat yaks, they do so mostly when an animal dies accidentally or is old and of no more use to them, though there have been instances where they have stolen yaks from local people in Tibet. They also use yaks for patrolling. PLA soldiers have survived on the mountains not due to their technological advancements but due to the yaks which even provide warmth to the soldiers who sleep beside them in harsh winter,” the sources said.

“In fact a missing flock of 59 yaks and about 800 sheep triggered tensions between the two countries in 1965. It led to a border conflict in Sikkim in 1967. There were heated exchanges between soldiers over the yaks and sheep after the PLA accused Indian forces of stealing the animals from Tibetan herdsmen on the Sikkim border," a former army officer who worked on the LAC recalled.

Though there have been suspicions that the PLA sends yaks and sheep into Indian territory fitted with spying tools, the Indian Army, wary of the PLA's designs, has not found any concrete evidence of that.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 13 Sep 2020 18:34

Latest gyan from Gobar times

https://twitter.com/Hiranyareta/status/ ... 9123793920
Gandhian Gyan from @HuXijin_GT, Gobar Times fella. :rotfl: :rotfl:


" If we win on the battlefield at the expense of our international morality, we might mistakenly help the US build an anti-China alliance that challenges our strategic position even more."

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 13 Sep 2020 18:35

Latest gyan from Gobar times

https://twitter.com/Hiranyareta/status/ ... 9123793920
Gandhian Gyan from @HuXijin_GT, Gobar Times fella. :rotfl: :rotfl:


" If we win on the battlefield at the expense of our international morality, we might mistakenly help the US build an anti-China alliance that challenges our strategic position even more."

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 13 Sep 2020 18:37

It's likely that chinese would be using this kung fu scripts as fodder to go up the escalation ladder by claiming high losses.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rpartha » 13 Sep 2020 19:12

darshan wrote:It's likely that chinese would be using this kung fu scripts as fodder to go up the escalation ladder by claiming high losses.



Prob they want to use them because in case of lose they dont need to acknowledge (they dont acknowledge even PLA but atleast there are PR impact) and if they win they can claim that their martial guys are so superior that they dont even use their regular army...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rpartha » 13 Sep 2020 19:14

shyamd wrote:GOI has had very high level discussions with the bhutanese establishment over the last week. PLA is going to come after Bhutanese territory and Bhutanese military has been asked to go into alert/step up preparation.

All intel agencies have been told to support mil commander conversations that will take place likely next week.


Link...

https://www.news18.com/news/india/amid- ... 73683.html

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rpartha » 13 Sep 2020 19:16

** Deleted **
Last edited by SSridhar on 13 Sep 2020 21:34, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please be mindful of what you say.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Dilbu » 13 Sep 2020 19:41

rpartha wrote: Deleted.

Really?? This is BRF sir. Please think twice before posting such gems. :roll:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 13 Sep 2020 19:55

IMO the stakes are too high now and Xi might be loosing the stomach to roll the dice on an actual attack. With a reported 100k soldiers on facing each other in just Ladakh, although the total frontier is supposed to be 800km+ but the areas where they are facing off, the lines are only a few dozen kms (e.g. northern most areas of Pangong to Rezang /Rechin La is ~60km, and you have 20 to 30k just here. PLA is forced into a position where they have no kinetic option other than to engage in close combat with the IA. They could try to tip the scales with an opening salvo of with precision strike on our positions, artillery and offensive assets, but it is doubtful that how effective it will be against well dug in and defenced troops and assets. It will turn into a real meat grinder with casualties in the thousands and possibility of 1000's of PoWs. It will be nothing like the superpower (US) wars of the last 3 decades wherein the the superpower is able to win by inflicting at least ~1:20 if not 1:100 casualties on the other side. Its carefully constructed facade of being a military superpower will crumble and other smaller nations too will get the confidence to give it a bloody nose the next time they try a salami instead of just rolling over.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby suryag » 13 Sep 2020 20:03

As we suspected earlier on this thread they will go for Bhutan, bcowards

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 13 Sep 2020 20:07

rpartha wrote:
shyamd wrote:GOI has had very high level discussions with the bhutanese establishment over the last week. PLA is going to come after Bhutanese territory and Bhutanese military has been asked to go into alert/step up preparation.

All intel agencies have been told to support mil commander conversations that will take place likely next week.


Link...

https://www.news18.com/news/india/amid- ... 73683.html


Beijing's territorial claims in Bhutan include 318 sq km in the western sector and 495 sq km in the central sector. The PLA continues to build roads and construct military infrastructure to intimidate the Bhutanese Army by ways of aggressive patrolling and denial of access, the people said.

The PLA has intruded into five areas of western Bhutan and laid claim to a new boundary extending about 40 km inside Bhutan, to the east of Chumbi Valley, diplomats based in Thimpu and New Delhi said.

PLA patrols crossed the main stream of Torsa nullah (Dolong Chu) into south Doklam and asked Bhutanese herders (who were grazing their livestock) to vacate the area near Raja Rani lake on August 13 and 24, the report mentions.

I think this was identified by BRF member here a few months ago, they have been building this infrastructure for the last 2 years, with no official word or (publicly known) action from our side. Longterm I don't think their border is defensible unless we permanently deploy a significant number of troops there.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SriKumar » 13 Sep 2020 20:35

abhik wrote: Its carefully constructed facade of being a military superpower will crumble and other smaller nations too will get the confidence to give it a bloody nose the next time they try a salami instead of just rolling over.
I doubt the 'military super-power' equation will collapse against the smaller countries around China e.g. Tajikistan and other Dinky-istans around its border. Unless India openly and without restriction sells military equipment (e.g. Vietnam) and/or offers to send soldiers to defend their borders (e.g. Bhutan) of the little countries, they will still be in the same situation as before vis-a-vis a bullying China. In other words, India will have to flex its military foreign policy way beyond what it is doing now. (First stop on that tour- Hambantota).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vips » 13 Sep 2020 20:51

AV reports today that Indian Army has already stocked up for food and ammunition for the next 10 months for regular and additional troops on the frontline.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 13 Sep 2020 21:28

^^^
Who is AV? TIA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 13 Sep 2020 21:38

** Deleted **
Last edited by SSridhar on 14 Sep 2020 08:17, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Such language is unacceptable

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 13 Sep 2020 21:45

abhik wrote:I think this was identified by BRF member here a few months ago, they have been building this infrastructure for the last 2 years, with no official word or (publicly known) action from our side. Longterm I don't think their border is defensible unless we permanently deploy a significant number of troops there.


The PLA intrusions in northwest Bhutan have been going on since 2004. You are probably correct that the encroachments down the Torsa are of more recent vintage (a few years). RBA seems to have zero presence in the Torsa floodplain area, instead there is a nature preserve in the area.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 13 Sep 2020 21:55

Haridas wrote:While actual war may last 10 days, both side armies would have already staged ammo for a good 4 week war, and food & fuel to last till next spring. So what diff does it make to warfare if G219 based supply is disrupted when balloon goes up?


That is what I was saying in my previous post. Why is the PLA/CCP staking so much for maintaining an essentially "independent"/expeditionary force to fight a few weeks (or even months) in the far west of Tibet in extremely unfavorable conditions? This would result in a stalemate (at best) or (more likely) a defeat at the hands of the IA which may overrun the disputed territory. Without the plan of an extended war (in which G219 would obviously be critical), this makes no sense to me.

Taking down G219 could disrupt troop redeployment during war. But then one has to occupy G219 at multiple points to make a difference to troop movement. So think about how we posses portions of G219 and defend our troops (against counter attack) and have a supply line to move men & material?


I am not a military tactitian, but I do not believe it necessary to control the G219. Simply disrupting it and then making it difficult for the Chinese to rebuild it, would be all that is needed.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby naruto » 13 Sep 2020 22:48

Found this interesting video, a border personnel meeting at Chushul. It gives a sense of the peaks around in the Spangur gap. The good Brigadier at 10 min in to the video shows the Magar hill and Gurung hills.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VikramS » 13 Sep 2020 23:55

pankajs wrote:Latest gyan from Gobar times

https://twitter.com/Hiranyareta/status/ ... 9123793920
Gandhian Gyan from @HuXijin_GT, Gobar Times fella. :rotfl: :rotfl:


" If we win on the battlefield at the expense of our international morality, we might mistakenly help the US build an anti-China alliance that challenges our strategic position even more."


The perception they want to set is that they are setting the stage for downhill skiing; trying to justify it as a tactical retreat.

But with the CCP the maxim should be: "Dont have an iota of TRUST, until completely verified"

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VikramS » 14 Sep 2020 00:00

hanumadu wrote:Suraj and others have posted before how China goes through cycles of violence and calm. Here's some one's take on why the cycles occur.
https://twitter.com/cbkwgl/status/1304902348658094089



This happens because they do not have internal mechanisms to gradually release the pressure. The pressure builds up until it explodes.

This is a big enough issue now that the world should care. China is deeply integrated with the rest of the world and anything which happens there affects the rest of us.

A CCP ruled China is simply not compatible with her integration with the rest of the world; it will become a cause for global instability.

Before India thinking of Tibet/XIanjing, the global order needs to put in a plan to put a replacement system in place; one which leans democratic, does not require a great wall and can integrate with the rest of the world on an intellectual basis, not just a transactional basis.


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