India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Anoop » 17 Sep 2020 17:30

The Week article on Aug 23 mentioned that approximately 200,000 tonnes were required for regular AWS, with nearly double that number or 400,000 tonnes required for the current deployment.

The Reuters article on Sep 15 mentions that over 150,000 tonnes have already been moved to the region. There's still a way to go to complete the stocking required for the winter, which makes the year round opening of the passes critical. One of the good outcomes from this exercise would be that if Chang La can be kept open through the year going forward, that is a huge improvement in our connectivity in the future. It allows us to relieve the pressure on the Thoise airstrip.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 17 Sep 2020 17:32

None of the PRC's other sectors are active, why cant they bring more of thier 2.3 million soldiers to TAR, Taiwan, Japan, Myanmmar, Loas, Vietnam, Nepal, Tajiskistan, Krygistan, Russia, Mongolia, Soko may all have disputes with the PRC but nobody will invade PRC- they dont have a Pakistan type enemy. So they are free to aclamatise and deploy them- 200K soldiers in Tibet will not be costly for the PRC. Especially a surge before a conflict will be very affordable for them. What gives?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 17 Sep 2020 17:44

If, despite India facing challenges unprecedented in its history, China cannot make headway, we will probably be left alone for some time.
We currently face:
- Covid
- Unprecedented economic crash
- Pakistan making an all out effort to stay relevant in Kashmir
- BIF activities : Article 370/ CAA/NRC
- Ruling party losing state elections, maybe more amenable to a `compromise'.
- 2 Cyclones, locust swarms, rural distress.
- Border infrastructure not yet complete, defense restructuring beginning and hasn't shown results yet.

I doubt any country in recent history has faced off against a larger and stronger opponent with so many disadvantages.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 17 Sep 2020 17:47

Dexter wrote:If the Chinese are playing music and propaganda on loud speakers what is stopping us from returning the favour. If the Chinese does it, most probably their soldiers are susceptible to such non-sense. It might be unsoldierly but no reason India should carry any moral baggage


Must have the Tibetians here create songs about how the Chinese have illegally occupied their land and how the local gods will punish by the Han soldier there by ensuring that their generation ends here in the mountains far away from home for making some powerful Han feel good.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Deans » 17 Sep 2020 17:59

Aditya_V wrote:None of the PRC's other sectors are active, why cant they bring more of thier 2.3 million soldiers to TAR, Taiwan, Japan, Myanmmar, Loas, Vietnam, Nepal, Tajiskistan, Krygistan, Russia, Mongolia, Soko may all have disputes with the PRC but nobody will invade PRC- they dont have a Pakistan type enemy. So they are free to aclamatise and deploy them- 200K soldiers in Tibet will not be costly for the PRC. Especially a surge before a conflict will be very affordable for them. What gives?


The PLA has 13 group armies + 4 divisions in Xinjiang and 1 near Lhasa.
Each group army has 6 combined arms brigades.
Each combined arms army will have to `borrow' infantry from other armies, in place of an armored or mechanised brigade, which have very little utility in the mountains.

If the PLA deploys 6 group armies (the western theatre has only 2 armies) + 3 of its 4 divisions based in Xinjiang, that deployment will account for 2/3 of all the infantry battalions of the entire PLA, or the infantry equivalent of 10 IA infantry / mountain divisions.
In Eastern command alone, we have 9 mountain divisions. Add to that XIV corps in Leh, IX corps in Yol and 6th Infantry division for Uttaranchal
and there is no scenario where China's infantry will outnumber ours. the difference is that China has to build infrastructure to house them (which India has managed to do over the last few decades). Infrastructure is not only getting troops from point A to B, but providing them shelter, supplies and maintenance for their equipment. On google maps, look at our DIv HQ's close to the LAC and see if the PLA has any comparable infrastructure. Hence it is not in China's interest to replicate its build up in Ladakh anywhere else along the LAC, though we are probably better placed to do some salami slicing in say Arunachal.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 17 Sep 2020 18:00

If we moving so much logistics in to Ladakh, it means GoI is not confident of any disengagement.

There doesn't seem to be any attempt from either side to prevent this from going in to the winter.. Now would the Chinis take it in to winter or force a change to prevent from going in to winter..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 17 Sep 2020 18:17

Deans wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:None of the PRC's other sectors are active, why cant they bring more of thier 2.3 million soldiers to TAR, Taiwan, Japan, Myanmmar, Loas, Vietnam, Nepal, Tajiskistan, Krygistan, Russia, Mongolia, Soko may all have disputes with the PRC but nobody will invade PRC- they dont have a Pakistan type enemy. So they are free to aclamatise and deploy them- 200K soldiers in Tibet will not be costly for the PRC. Especially a surge before a conflict will be very affordable for them. What gives?


The PLA has 13 group armies + 4 divisions in Xinjiang and 1 near Lhasa.
Each group army has 6 combined arms brigades.
Each combined arms army will have to `borrow' infantry from other armies, in place of an armored or mechanised brigade, which have very little utility in the mountains.

If the PLA deploys 6 group armies (the western theatre has only 2 armies) + 3 of its 4 divisions based in Xinjiang, that deployment will account for 2/3 of all the infantry battalions of the entire PLA, or the infantry equivalent of 10 IA infantry / mountain divisions.

In Eastern command alone, we have 9 mountain divisions. Add to that XIV corps in Leh, IX corps in Yol and 6th Infantry division for Uttaranchal
and there is no scenario where China's infantry will outnumber ours. the difference is that China has to build infrastructure to house them (which India has managed to do over the last few decades). Infrastructure is not only getting troops from point A to B, but providing them shelter, supplies and maintenance for their equipment. On google maps, look at our DIv HQ's close to the LAC and see if the PLA has any comparable infrastructure. Hence it is not in China's interest to replicate its build up in Ladakh anywhere else along the LAC, though we are probably better placed to do some salami slicing in say Arunachal.


these "armies" are deployed defensively against many other countries with whom they have "border disputes" and will not be so easily available for any deployment against India.

the hans will have real fears of being galwaned by their other enemies too and for xi that will be a fatal blow from which he will not recover.

so they have to make do with what they have deployed against us and we can match what ever they throw against us in this limited context.

above all, it's the face saving which is their primary objective now, dreams of conquest and territorial gains will have taken a back seat for the moment.

This is the best time to actively push for the security council seat for India with full veto powers.

the hans have been well and truly spooked by art 370 combined with India's aggressive border infrastructure build up which threatens the CPEC and hence their gwadar plans directly.

India can and will ratchet up the baluchistan issue to further muddy the pak and china waters and the uighur muslims issue is a disaster just looking for the right time to explode in xi's face. He has much to answer for, when he deviously unleashed the wuhan virus and then made his moves.

malacca straits becomes their biggest nightmare once again as the kra channel is now well beyond their capability to handle.

the ameriki play on the Indo pacific front is the one that they never saw coming and India's role in this new game is a given. The maldives pact by the amerikis has now opened up the real possibilities of a mutal defence pact with several other smaller countries in the region while India straddles the region with her andaman territories.
Last edited by chetak on 17 Sep 2020 18:42, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 17 Sep 2020 18:42

Given that we are a status quo power, there is no point having more divisions than Chinis, once the roads are in place. Our political leaders are not going to order IA to capture Aksai Chin or Tibet.

We will be defending the line and PLA cannot win over us, unless they commit atleast 5 times more men.

We should concentrate on improving airpower. It is the prime deterrent for a status power, over more divisions.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby chetak » 17 Sep 2020 18:54

nam wrote:Given that we are a status quo power, there is no point having more divisions than Chinis, once the roads are in place. Our political leaders are not going to order IA to capture Aksai Chin or Tibet.

We will be defending the line and PLA cannot win over us, unless they commit atleast 5 times more men.

We should concentrate on improving airpower. It is the prime deterrent for a status power, over more divisions.


xi cannot win and xi cannot retreat because he is cornered by his own domestic politics which is now bristling with his enemies carrying sharp swords.

This is about as dangerous as it gets for us because a cornered rat is unpredictable

we must now start the process to trade off a one china policy with a one India policy or start making noises on tibet calling it northern arunachal pradesh or whatever and recognize the republic of china (ROC), commonly known as taiwan.

we must reject all han claims on the Indian border demarcation and extend our own claim lines well into their territory and repeatedly rake up the issue of aksai chin in all security council meetings as well as at every opportunity at the UN.

This mugs game played by the sold out Indian thinktankis constantly harping on the Indian and chinese perceptions of the border must stop. In every discussion this nonsense of border perception by the hans is trotted out as though it were the holy grail that will lead to peace. The hans have used this very fallacious strategy to to convince and diddle various congi and other coalition govts out of vast swathes of Indian territory and we have been left sucking our thumbs. Its the pliable babooze looking forpost retirement track thoo benefits and the FFNGOs which are at the forefront of constantly pushing such a poisonous discourse.

time to payback the hans for the decades of bullying that was so tamely accepted by the surrender gandhis' and their BIF agenda

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby williams » 17 Sep 2020 19:14

nam wrote:If we moving so much logistics in to Ladakh, it means GoI is not confident of any disengagement.

There doesn't seem to be any attempt from either side to prevent this from going in to the winter.. Now would the Chinis take it in to winter or force a change to prevent from going into winter.


If talks would have yielded results, there should have been a disengagement a month before. The current talks with our DM, FM, etc is to gauge the temperature. Most of these dictatorships use talks to bide time or gauge temperature. I hope our people understand that is how dictatorships work. They will not provide concessions until they are in a big disadvantageous position and even then they will agree for things to see if they get an opportunity to break such agreements when it suits them.

Winter is interesting. I have seen Pangong lake frozen in youtube. I am thinking whoever survives the winter better is going to win this stalemate. And given the numbers, I think the next step will be more readjustments in the Arunachal sector.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby suryag » 17 Sep 2020 19:35

RaviB garu can you please make up some Sun Tzhutiyapantis and if possible give Mandarin translation(not sure how good chacha's tool is) in China thread in the strat forum

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby mmasand » 17 Sep 2020 19:39

For those perplexed about the PLA belting out Punjabi pop numbers, here's a piece pointing to their disdain of the Sikh infantryman.

Why is Sikh soldier a bogeyman for Chinese army at Ladakh

Not far from the Rezang La-Rechin La ridgeline that has emerged as a key friction point between Indian and Chinese troops, the Chushul brigade headquarters mess still houses artefacts including a gold statue of the Laughing Buddha seized by the Sikh regiments more than a century ago.

The soldiers were part of an eight-nation mission to neutralise China’s Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the last century, an uprising led by young farmers and workers against foreign influence. The British Army had brought in Sikh and Punjab regiments among others.

The alliance troops moved into Beijing after the Boxer fighters threatened foreigners and kept 400 foreigners holed up in Beijing’s Foreign Legation Quarter. The siege lasted 55 days before 20,000 alliance troops reached Beijing and fought their way in. Nearly 8,000 of them belonged to the British Army from India, many of them Sikh and Punjab regiments. After the victory, according to an account by one Indian sepoy, the British army indulged in looting: French and Russian troops killed civilians and raped women.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 17 Sep 2020 20:09

https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news ... L_amp.html


Not far from the Rezang La-Rechin La ridgeline that has emerged as a key friction point between Indian and Chinese troops, the Chushul brigade headquarters mess still houses artefacts including a gold statue of the Laughing Buddha seized by the Sikh regiments more than a century ago.

The soldiers were part of an eight-nation mission to neutralise China’s Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the last century, an uprising led by young farmers and workers against foreign influence. The British Army had brought in Sikh and Punjab regiments among others.

The alliance troops moved into Beijing after the Boxer fighters threatened foreigners and kept 400 foreigners holed up in Beijing’s Foreign Legation Quarter. The siege lasted 55 days before 20,000 alliance troops reached Beijing and fought their way in. Nearly 8,000 of them belonged to the British Army from India, many of them Sikh and Punjab regiments. After the victory, according to an account by one Indian sepoy, the British army indulged in looting: French and Russian troops killed civilians and raped women.

REGIMENTS DECORATED FOR LIFTING BOXER REBELLION SIEGE
91 Punjab Regiment
24 Punjab Regiment
20 Brownlow’s Punjabis
51 Sikh Regiment
14 Sikh Regiment
7 Rajput Regiment
122 Rajputana Infantry Regiment
4 Gorkha Regiment
88 Carnatic Infantry Regiment
6 Jat Light Infantry Regiment
15 Cavalry Regiment
2 Lancers Regiment
130 Baluch Regiment and
126 Baluch Regiment
The statue of the Laughing Buddha at the army mess in Chushul was one of the items brought back by the soldiers. A gilded bronze bell dating back to the 1368-1644 Ming dynasty - one of the missing 16 - looted by a British general, was eventually returned by the Indian Army to Beijing’s Temple of Heaven in 1995.

In his seminal book, India’s China War, Australian journalist Neville Maxwell said the Chinese leadership used the humiliation suffered after the revolution to build a movement to restore the country. Maxwell also believed there was a link between this mindset and the 1962 war.

An Indian army commander said this historical context could be a reason why the China’s People’s Liberation Army psy-ops focuses so much on the Punjabi, or Sikh soldiers.

China’s PLA has installed loudspeakers at the friction points that spew its propaganda on the standoff, accuse New Delhi of escalating tensions to divert from domestic issues and even belt out Punjabi pop numbers aimed at the Indian soldiers deployed to counter PLA.
India and China have held several rounds of talks at the military and diplomatic level. The last one was at the level of external affairs minister S Jaishankar who had a two-hour-long meeting with his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi in Moscow that helped ease tensions between the two countries. But there is no evidence yet that a resolution is round the corner.

New Delhi is not impressed by the Chinese political rhetoric that India needs to disengage first, that the genesis of the present stand-off lies in August 5, 2019 nullification of article 370 and the redrawn Indian map or that, as the Chinese envoy Sun Weidong puts it, both sides need to meet halfway to restore peace at the border.

India believes that China should restore status quo ante as prevailing on April 20 this year when the PLA parked itself closer to the Line of Actual Control, setting off a series of face-offs with Indian army patrol parties at several locations along the LAC in Ladakh and elsewhere.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rajpa » 17 Sep 2020 20:23

mmasand wrote:For those perplexed about the PLA belting out Punjabi pop numbers, here's a piece pointing to their disdain of the Sikh infantryman.

Why is Sikh soldier a bogeyman for Chinese army at Ladakh

Not far from the Rezang La-Rechin La ridgeline that has emerged as a key friction point between Indian and Chinese troops, the Chushul brigade headquarters mess still houses artefacts including a gold statue of the Laughing Buddha seized by the Sikh regiments more than a century ago.

The soldiers were part of an eight-nation mission to neutralise China’s Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the last century, an uprising led by young farmers and workers against foreign influence. The British Army had brought in Sikh and Punjab regiments among others.

The alliance troops moved into Beijing after the Boxer fighters threatened foreigners and kept 400 foreigners holed up in Beijing’s Foreign Legation Quarter. The siege lasted 55 days before 20,000 alliance troops reached Beijing and fought their way in. Nearly 8,000 of them belonged to the British Army from India, many of them Sikh and Punjab regiments. After the victory, according to an account by one Indian sepoy, the British army indulged in looting: French and Russian troops killed civilians and raped women.


Pls replace "disdain" with 'fear'

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Suraj » 17 Sep 2020 20:30

Correct . The turbaned Indian soldier is an object of fear and loathing . Generations of Chinese kids have been raised by mothers and grandmothers telling them to behave / eat their food or else they will be given away to an A-San .

The sight of a regiment of turbaned Sikhs is the abiding memory of India for many foreign nations in past wars - France (as an ally) and Germans in WW1/2 , China during the Boxer Rebellion... for the latter, the mental image of a white general with his troop of ruthless turbaned soldiers from India, is the ‘century of humiliation’ picture that the Chinese learn in school . All Chinese are taught that yes the British and French brought them to their knees, but everyone also knows the soldiers were turbaned Indians.

India has no corresponding object of fear involving China other than one botched war that everyone knows is because of high level incompetence. Almost all major rerisive memes about Indians on Chinese cyberspace are language originally meant to describe turbaned Indian soldiers . For them this imagery is no different from a hakenkreuz sporting SS officer.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rajpa » 17 Sep 2020 20:45

Suraj wrote:Correct . The turbaned Indian soldier is an object of fear and loathing . Generations of Chinese kids have been raised by mothers and grandmothers telling them to behave / eat their food or else they will be given away to an A-San .

The sight of a regiment of turbaned Sikhs is the abiding memory of India for many foreign nations in past wars - France (as an ally) and Germans in WW1/2 , China during the Boxer Rebellion... for the latter, the mental image of a white general with his troop of ruthless turbaned soldiers from India, is the ‘century of humiliation’ picture that the Chinese learn in school . All Chinese are taught that yes the British and French brought them to their knees, but everyone also knows the soldiers were turbaned Indians.

India has no corresponding object of fear involving China other than one botched war that everyone knows is because of high level incompetence. Almost all major rerisive memes about Indians on Chinese cyberspace are language originally meant to describe turbaned Indian soldiers . For them this imagery is no different from a hakenkreuz sporting SS officer.


While we feel for the Chinese that they had to go through a century of humiliation, and by the way so did we, but they are putting themselves in a very similar point in history where they are enticing the "imperial" powers to gang up against them and smack their butts off.

It is like a little boy beaten up so bad that he grows up and becomes a serial murderer with his little psycho gang, taking revenge against all society. Fits the profile of Xi very well - with his fights against practically every country in the world except for two terrorist gangmembers (Porks and Nokos). Xitler is the reincarnation of the Versailles moment for the Chinese. He probably weeps copiously, with his wife by side, with images of Sikhs in Beijing, or perhaps Japanese in Nanjing, running through his head, picked up from some books in his father's library.

(Comparing them to India, we seem to have grown up better well adjusted.)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RaviB » 17 Sep 2020 21:05

suryag wrote:RaviB garu can you please make up some Sun Tzhutiyapantis and if possible give Mandarin translation(not sure how good chacha's tool is) in China thread in the strat forum


Suryag garu, I have done this now.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pushkar.bhat » 17 Sep 2020 21:22

Suraj wrote:Correct . The turbaned Indian soldier is an object of fear and loathing . Generations of Chinese kids have been raised by mothers and grandmothers telling them to behave / eat their food or else they will be given away to an A-San .

The sight of a regiment of turbaned Sikhs is the abiding memory of India for many foreign nations in past wars - France (as an ally) and Germans in WW1/2 , China during the Boxer Rebellion... for the latter, the mental image of a white general with his troop of ruthless turbaned soldiers from India, is the ‘century of humiliation’ picture that the Chinese learn in school . All Chinese are taught that yes the British and French brought them to their knees, but everyone also knows the soldiers were turbaned Indians.

India has no corresponding object of fear involving China other than one botched war that everyone knows is because of high level incompetence. Almost all major rerisive memes about Indians on Chinese cyberspace are language originally meant to describe turbaned Indian soldiers . For them this imagery is no different from a hakenkreuz sporting SS officer.


So now I know why the Corp Commander meeting is getting pushed back. Our Man is a Sardar and 100% Turbuned. :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2020 21:50

SBajwa wrote:https://m.hindustantimes.com/india-news/why-is-sikh-soldier-a-bogeyman-for-chinese-army-at-ladakh/story-4FuLsEa991pKKEuafxmKcL_amp.html


Not far from the Rezang La-Rechin La ridgeline that has emerged as a key friction point between Indian and Chinese troops, the Chushul brigade headquarters mess still houses artefacts including a gold statue of the Laughing Buddha seized by the Sikh regiments more than a century ago.

The soldiers were part of an eight-nation mission to neutralise China’s Boxer Rebellion at the turn of the last century, an uprising led by young farmers and workers against foreign influence. The British Army had brought in Sikh and Punjab regiments among others.

The alliance troops moved into Beijing after the Boxer fighters threatened foreigners and kept 400 foreigners holed up in Beijing’s Foreign Legation Quarter. The siege lasted 55 days before 20,000 alliance troops reached Beijing and fought their way in. Nearly 8,000 of them belonged to the British Army from India, many of them Sikh and Punjab regiments. After the victory, according to an account by one Indian sepoy, the British army indulged in looting: French and Russian troops killed civilians and raped women.

REGIMENTS DECORATED FOR LIFTING BOXER REBELLION SIEGE
91 Punjab Regiment
24 Punjab Regiment
20 Brownlow’s Punjabis
51 Sikh Regiment
14 Sikh Regiment
7 Rajput Regiment
122 Rajputana Infantry Regiment
4 Gorkha Regiment
88 Carnatic Infantry Regiment
6 Jat Light Infantry Regiment
15 Cavalry Regiment
2 Lancers Regiment
130 Baluch Regiment and
126 Baluch Regiment
The statue of the Laughing Buddha at the army mess in Chushul was one of the items brought back by the soldiers. A gilded bronze bell dating back to the 1368-1644 Ming dynasty - one of the missing 16 - looted by a British general, was eventually returned by the Indian Army to Beijing’s Temple of Heaven in 1995.

In his seminal book, India’s China War, Australian journalist Neville Maxwell said the Chinese leadership used the humiliation suffered after the revolution to build a movement to restore the country. Maxwell also believed there was a link between this mindset and the 1962 war.

An Indian army commander said this historical context could be a reason why the China’s People’s Liberation Army psy-ops focuses so much on the Punjabi, or Sikh soldiers.

China’s PLA has installed loudspeakers at the friction points that spew its propaganda on the standoff, accuse New Delhi of escalating tensions to divert from domestic issues and even belt out Punjabi pop numbers aimed at the Indian soldiers deployed to counter PLA.
India and China have held several rounds of talks at the military and diplomatic level. The last one was at the level of external affairs minister S Jaishankar who had a two-hour-long meeting with his Chinese counterpart Wang Yi in Moscow that helped ease tensions between the two countries. But there is no evidence yet that a resolution is round the corner.

New Delhi is not impressed by the Chinese political rhetoric that India needs to disengage first, that the genesis of the present stand-off lies in August 5, 2019 nullification of article 370 and the redrawn Indian map or that, as the Chinese envoy Sun Weidong puts it, both sides need to meet halfway to restore peace at the border.

India believes that China should restore status quo ante as prevailing on April 20 this year when the PLA parked itself closer to the Line of Actual Control, setting off a series of face-offs with Indian army patrol parties at several locations along the LAC in Ladakh and elsewhere.



This waas the subject of Charles Heston movie "55 Days in Peking:

Maj. Sarbans Singh "Battle Honors of the Indian Army" lists Pekin 1900 and China 1900 to a number of battalions. Seven battalions were transfered to Pakistan. And six battalions were disbanded.
Also Skinners Horse or 1st Horse rode into Peking alongside US 6th Cavalry.
It was the Indian brigades that succeeded in reaching Peking to relieve the seige.

Earlier from 1858 to 1862 there were more battle honors awarded for action in China. Example Pekin 1860.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2020 21:53

Also those off you in Chennaipatnam, please go to Fort St. Goerge Museum and find the Chinese Army helmets seized in Burma campaign in 1880s.
There is also a trophy from Persia when Madras Regiment was deployed in the 1800s.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rsingh » 17 Sep 2020 22:03

Aditya_V wrote:None of the PRC's other sectors are active, why cant they bring more of thier 2.3 million soldiers to TAR, Taiwan, Japan, Myanmmar, Loas, Vietnam, Nepal, Tajiskistan, Krygistan, Russia, Mongolia, Soko may all have disputes with the PRC but nobody will invade PRC- they dont have a Pakistan type enemy. So they are free to aclamatise and deploy them- 200K soldiers in Tibet will not be costly for the PRC. Especially a surge before a conflict will be very affordable for them. What gives?


They are cautious. What if Vietnam decides to go for boundry adjustments. Krygistans have something to pay back. Given Russian blessings.....Mongolia may be itching for some border adjustments.Russia itself is worried about Hanization of southern Siberia. And then US is petroling Indo-Pecific sea. They have all resons to be worried that emplal will be caught without cloths.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2020 22:37

nam wrote:If we moving so much logistics in to Ladakh, it means GoI is not confident of any disengagement.

There doesn't seem to be any attempt from either side to prevent this from going in to the winter.. Now would the Chinis take it in to winter or force a change to prevent from going in to winter..


nam you are slipping into Philip mode.
I am close to invoking the 1 lungi shivering post to 5 good posts rule.

Enough constant shivering.

Folks,
No more today by anyone.
Even when things are good why this whine?
RAMANA

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby williams » 17 Sep 2020 22:44

ArjunPandit wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
On the contrary....

An Arjun in Ladakh....dream on sir...

can they take tanks just like that..shouldnt they require a logistic/engineering support of recovery vehicles.testing their performance in such heights should also be very important....
and most importantly how do we plan to take it in the first place? C17 is the only one......once everythign is complete C17 sorties could be used to transport..but i dont think that is the IA priority just my thoughts happy to be proven wrong


I was looking at the report that DSDBO road is getting upgraded for 70 ton category.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Suraj » 17 Sep 2020 22:52

Actually it is a very good idea to move some of those TFTA sardars from the stupid clown show at Wagah (it's over now, is it ?) and instead utilize them to stand around during negotiations with China. Plays on the the latent negative mental imagery they have been raised upon.

Mainland Chinese, HKers and even older Taiwanese who are KMT folks who fled to Taiwan during civil war - all of them have this same mental image burned into their heads of scary and wicked turbaned Indian soldiers. It's a culturally ingrained memory of theirs.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Sep 2020 22:56

Deans wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:None of the PRC's other sectors are active, why cant they bring more of thier 2.3 million soldiers to TAR, Taiwan, Japan, Myanmmar, Loas, Vietnam, Nepal, Tajiskistan, Krygistan, Russia, Mongolia, Soko may all have disputes with the PRC but nobody will invade PRC- they dont have a Pakistan type enemy. So they are free to aclamatise and deploy them- 200K soldiers in Tibet will not be costly for the PRC. Especially a surge before a conflict will be very affordable for them. What gives?


The PLA has 13 group armies + 4 divisions in Xinjiang and 1 near Lhasa.
Each group army has 6 combined arms brigades.
Each combined arms army will have to `borrow' infantry from other armies, in place of an armored or mechanised brigade, which have very little utility in the mountains.


If the PLA deploys 6 group armies (the western theatre has only 2 armies) + 3 of its 4 divisions based in Xinjiang, that deployment will account for 2/3 of all the infantry battalions of the entire PLA, or the infantry equivalent of 10 IA infantry / mountain divisions.
In Eastern command alone, we have 9 mountain divisions. Add to that XIV corps in Leh, IX corps in Yol and 6th Infantry division for Uttaranchal

and there is no scenario where China's infantry will outnumber ours. the difference is that China has to build infrastructure to house them (which India has managed to do over the last few decades). Infrastructure is not only getting troops from point A to B, but providing them shelter, supplies and maintenance for their equipment. On google maps, look at our DIv HQ's close to the LAC and see if the PLA has any comparable infrastructure. Hence it is not in China's interest to replicate its build up in Ladakh anywhere else along the LAC, though we are probably better placed to do some salami slicing in say Arunachal.


I think we gave enough assurance of our own strength and deployments. No amount of assurance will help dara hua insaan.
Immediately they will talk about Navy.
Because basically problem is fear in their minds of repeat of 1962.
And no one has bothered to read the vast amount of research and books on 1962.
It was a Political failure. And politicking the Army with yes men by the Nehru Menon duo.

Deans and Chetak,
I read numerous accounts of the China Vietnam war of 1979.
The concept of heavy, medium, and light brigades comes from the lessons of that short war.
PLA attacked with 700 tanks and lost quite a few. 45 per own account and 100 more per Vietnam.
Most likely the extra were repairable hence the low PLA numbers. Plus propaganda.

Now comes the interesting part. They attacked with 100 APCs. So most of the infantry rode on top of tanks or open trucks.
There were many casualties due to ATGM and recoil less fire.
So they spent more time building up these mechanized/motorized infantry brigades to reduce causalities of accompanying infantry..

West says PLA got a bloody nose. Yes that's true but they got some lessons.
They found armor helps in blasting field fortifications and despite heavy losses the PLA was able to over run prepared Vietnamese defences. And the armor helped in the hilly terrain.

Coming to Ladakh and AP, despite PLA re-organization into combat brigades they kept 4 divisions on in WTC for India front for you need volume provided by divisions. And all four divisions are veteran formations of 1962.

Dennis Blasko et al write these four are also called high altitude mechanized formations.

Hence we see IA moving tank formations to the sector to augment the mountain divisions.
And IAF Apaches to counter the PLA tanks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby jamwal » 17 Sep 2020 23:06

A lot of soldiers including Rajputs and a few others wore turbans during WW1 and WW2.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nishant.gupta » 18 Sep 2020 00:00

Interesting to see so many videos and details of our readiness for the long haul through the winter. According to one pic, our men will have everything including soy milk and mutton and winter wear as well.

Chindis are also busy proclaiming through there gobar times and other media that our army will "suffer" through the winter which they will somehow ensure. But has anyone seen any footage of the PLA moving any material for the coming winter? I thought they were very good at making ridiculous videos and yet despite them talking so much nonsense about dragging things through winter, I have not seen any videos of material being moved. Or have I missed something?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 18 Sep 2020 00:01

jamwal wrote:A lot of soldiers including Rajputs and a few others wore turbans during WW1 and WW2.


Yep! Exactly any turbaned soldiers with big mustaches will do the job. BTW. This song was being played to SSF on kala top


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 00:04

jamwal wrote:A lot of soldiers including Rajputs and a few others wore turbans during WW1 and WW2.

Yes and that's why I did't say sardar but 'turbaned Indian soldier'. It doesn't matter to them because their mental picture is still that of a collection of fierce swarthy guys in turbans, uniforms and rifles under a white man, humiliating them and destroying their last dynasty. I think a lot of Indians don't quite appreciate the culture memory of the turbaned Indian soldier that Chinese have. For them, it's similar to the imagery of the Japanese soldier with their Nehru topi hats, but minus the corresponding tales of atrocities. In a past relationship I was surprised to encounter a reference to this amongst an older gen Taiwanese gent who is mainland born. I didn't know anything of it, and he explained he has nothing against current day Indians, but described the cultural history of that symbol of fear. You'd think he was describing SS/SA/Abwehr, but no, he was referring to turbaned Indian soldiers.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RCase » 18 Sep 2020 00:12

I have some noob questions. Would appreciate getting educated.
1. The Nehruvian concept of not building road infrastructure in the border areas was to prevent the Chinese from using these to quickly invade India. How come we can't use the same to utilize the good Chinese infrastructure to do the exact same thing to them?
2. From Ngari to Shigatse, there doesn't seem to be any major population centers along 219. How well defended is this area? Would it make sense to do a salami slicing in the Mansarovar sector and present the Chinese with a fait accompli?
3. Why does the Indian side keep vehemently defending the sanctity of the LAC? (We occupied the peaks on OUR side and did not cross the LAC!). Why can't we keep insisting that the Chinese are illegally occupying our land since 1962. The border dispute is a result of China invading Tibet.
4. Everytime China gets 'angry' when the 'One China Policy' is poked. Why can't we keep insisting that China should respect 'Akhand Bharat Policy', else we will get angry.
5. China fires off missiles and makes threatening noises whenever Taiwan makes any whimper of declaring independence. How come India doesn't make any threats when China can build CPEC through GB/ PoK?
6. When China can make outlandish cartographic claims, why can't India do the same to them? Anything the Chinese say is theirs is shown as dotted lines on the map (for e.g. Arunachal Pradesh). Why can't we lay claims to their territory, especially Mt. Kailash and declare that as disputed?
7. Even now, we are playing a defensive posture in the Ladakh sector by matching whatever the Chinese force strength and waiting for them to attack. Why not hit them in places they will be vulnerable? (Sun Tzu ...).

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RCase » 18 Sep 2020 00:19

nishant.gupta wrote:Interesting to see so many videos and details of our readiness for the long haul through the winter. According to one pic, our men will have everything including soy milk and mutton and winter wear as well.

Chindis are also busy proclaiming through there gobar times and other media that our army will "suffer" through the winter which they will somehow ensure. But has anyone seen any footage of the PLA moving any material for the coming winter? I thought they were very good at making ridiculous videos and yet despite them talking so much nonsense about dragging things through winter, I have not seen any videos of material being moved. Or have I missed something?

I guess you missed the drone deliveries of hot meals to the little princes! Not to mention their hyperbaric barracks.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 18 Sep 2020 00:30

Suraj wrote:
jamwal wrote:A lot of soldiers including Rajputs and a few others wore turbans during WW1 and WW2.

Yes and that's why I did't say sardar but 'turbaned Indian soldier'. It doesn't matter to them because their mental picture is still that of a collection of fierce swarthy guys in turbans, uniforms and rifles under a white man, humiliating them and destroying their last dynasty. I think a lot of Indians don't quite appreciate the culture memory of the turbaned Indian soldier that Chinese have. For them, it's similar to the imagery of the Japanese soldier with their Nehru topi hats, but minus the corresponding tales of atrocities. In a past relationship I was surprised to encounter a reference to this amongst an older gen Taiwanese gent who is mainland born. I didn't know anything of it, and he explained he has nothing against current day Indians, but described the cultural history of that symbol of fear. You'd think he was describing SS/SA/Abwehr, but no, he was referring to turbaned Indian soldiers.


Bruce Lee movies are all about :(( and then :evil: at all sorts of H&D wreckers of Cheen. Remember that scene outside some club where a Cheeni's racist depiction of Sardar asks Lee to bugger off? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: In reality, the sardar would have curled his toes around Lee's perineum and sailed Lee's ass across the town square, but then movie needs to make money for the Shaw Bros, so Lee beats up some japanese dude wrapped in a lungi or something.



Wont have been in the movie, if it was not a sore bone in their throat that some Turbinator says in a wooden voice "B-haag jaaa, cheeni s-a-ale!" whenever they clamor around the entrance. Even worse, these guys might have seen rich Indian opium types going in casually.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby hnair » 18 Sep 2020 00:41

nishant.gupta wrote:I thought they were very good at making ridiculous videos and yet despite them talking so much nonsense about dragging things through winter, I have not seen any videos of material being moved. Or have I missed something?


Please! Dont give them ideas. Last time they showed their provincial clown princes practicing tai-chi or some such rubbish in the snow. All bare chested to make nips harder than any Indian BPJ as a warning to us all.

And now we dont want to watch them sitting on deck chairs in the snow, leopard skin budgie-smugglers and all telling us they are set for winter as they rub lotion on each other in a kilometer long line in front of pink tents. These guys dont take any prisoners in the Article 377 department

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SBajwa » 18 Sep 2020 00:44

All Chinese need to see is this. Chandi ki var by Guru Gobind Singh.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 18 Sep 2020 00:56

RCase wrote:...
2. From Ngari to Shigatse, there doesn't seem to be any major population centers along 219. How well defended is this area? Would it make sense to do a salami slicing in the Mansarovar sector and present the Chinese with a fait accompli?

This slightly old data but shows that even the ~3m population of tibet is highly concentrated in the Shigatse - Lahsa area (which is close to Sikkim and east AP border) and to the east edge of the province. Its the same story in the Xinjiang districts adjoining Ladakh (north of Spanggur). IMO our border should ideally be along the Kunlun towards the north and Kailash range between north and northeast.

Image
Tibetan population density based on 1990 county/prefecture census data for Qinghai Province and the Tibetan Autonomous Region. Increasingly darker shades indicate higher population densities. Source: The Tibetan & Himalayan Library [www.thlib.org].

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 18 Sep 2020 01:02

https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-danger ... yURL_share

The Dangers in a New Era of Territorial Grabs
Russia, China, Turkey and other countries are making claims on their neighbors’ territory, and the consequences could be dire

“Crimea certainly had an impact on China because it showed that the West was powerless to stop a territorial grab,” said Minxin Pei of Claremont McKenna College. “Eastern Ukraine also gave China some ideas that you could run a ‘hybrid warfare,’ making the life of Ukraine—or Taiwan—very miserable without crossing the line of a real war.”

Beijing is also making irredentist claims over swaths of north India, where Chinese troops engaged in a deadly clash with Indian forces in June, and the South China Sea, where China has erected outposts in areas claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam and others. This year, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan’s foreign ministries protested after official Chinese publications described large parts of their countries as historic Chinese territories that should return to the motherland.

“China is certainly a very revisionist power,” said retired Rear Adm. Sudarshan Shrikhande, a former chief of India’s naval intelligence. “It’s quite astounding how China seems to be wanting to simultaneously rub so many countries the wrong way.”

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Suraj » 18 Sep 2020 01:20

hnair wrote:Bruce Lee movies are all about :(( and then :evil: at all sorts of H&D wreckers of Cheen. Remember that scene outside some club where a Cheeni's racist depiction of Sardar asks Lee to bugger off? :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: In reality, the sardar would have curled his toes around Lee's perineum and sailed Lee's ass across the town square, but then movie needs to make money for the Shaw Bros, so Lee beats up some japanese dude wrapped in a lungi or something.

Thanks for bringing that movie up. I remember seeing that scene and thinking that 'Indian' is about as convincing as Mickey Rooney as the crudely sterotyped Japanese neighbor in Breakfast at Tiffanys.

Most Indians have an uncomfortable view of colonial era Indian troops, but the reality in other parts of the world is that they left a very deep impression on the local population, such that generations later, that is their principal mental view of Indians. There's a famous and widely published French press image from WW1 I think, captioned 'Brave Indian troops march through {some French town} after throwing out Kaiser's wicked German troops' . For that generation of French people, that was the talismanic view of India. In my opinion, that is also the reason for France's distinct policy towards India compared US or UK - three generations of French people have a direct civilizational memory of Indian soldiers defending their land. I have never been to Neuve Chapelle but it's a place I want to visit.

Similarly, Even 4-5 generations since the Qing Dynasty's last days, the abiding Chinese view of India are those humiliating A-sans who lorded over them (while they were doped out of their minds on opium). The CPC finds it very easy to mock Indian democracy and gloss over its successes because the audience already has a pronounced confirmation bias that predates the CPC's own existence by decades - they fear and loathe this image of the Indian soldier and take pleasure in seeing us do worse. This isn't just garden variety Middle Kingdom superiority complex - there's a very real sense of latent humiliation carried over several generations, due to 'bad Indian soldier' being used to scare kids into behaving.

India doesn't carry such feelings about Chinese. Heck, we don't even fear the Japanese - unlike rest of Asia that got overrun, we stopped the IJA at our borders and served as the base to take on the Japanese in China. Naturally the Chinese don't appreciate anything we did in that context. First the turbaned Indian soldier humiliated them. Then the turbaned Indian soldier was part of liberating them. All the while they could do nothing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 18 Sep 2020 01:34

vijayk wrote:https://www.wsj.com/articles/the-dangers-in-a-new-era-of-territorial-grabs-11600354808?st=rl05t1264o8fpxx&reflink=article_copyURL_share

The Dangers in a New Era of Territorial Grabs
Russia, China, Turkey and other countries are making claims on their neighbors’ territory, and the consequences could be dire

“Crimea certainly had an impact on China because it showed that the West was powerless to stop a territorial grab,” said Minxin Pei of Claremont McKenna College. “Eastern Ukraine also gave China some ideas that you could run a ‘hybrid warfare,’ making the life of Ukraine—or Taiwan—very miserable without crossing the line of a real war.”

Beijing is also making irredentist claims over swaths of north India, where Chinese troops engaged in a deadly clash with Indian forces in June, and the South China Sea, where China has erected outposts in areas claimed by the Philippines, Vietnam and others. This year, Kazakhstan and Tajikistan’s foreign ministries protested after official Chinese publications described large parts of their countries as historic Chinese territories that should return to the motherland.

“China is certainly a very revisionist power,” said retired Rear Adm. Sudarshan Shrikhande, a former chief of India’s naval intelligence. “It’s quite astounding how China seems to be wanting to simultaneously rub so many countries the wrong way.”


Two points.
When in US, Russia is still the enemy.
Second blame Russia for Chinese tactics especially if you are ethnic Chinese

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VikramS » 18 Sep 2020 03:25

chola wrote:
nam wrote:
The issue is even a LAC wide fight is too remote for the Chini population to be effected. The dead bodies will be hidden, just like it was done after Galwan.

If there is a fight, it is imperative that we need PR to get the info over to the Mango Chini. We sadly lack the firepower to completely decimate the Chinese forces on LAC. A stalemate is a win for us, but it is not perfect..


Prisoners and film. We lacked both at Galwan. If we annihilate a battalion, a brigade there would be prisoners and bodies by the hundreds on ground that we control. It will destroy their narrative and position in the Asian power hierachy quickly and even more so if they tried to deny living prisoners crying for return as single children to their mommies.


I don't think India lacked either film or prisoners.

It just that they would not serve any purpose in helping China save face if they are made public.

IIRC reports at that time suggested the CO was literally "lifted" and bought over by the Sikhs.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 18 Sep 2020 04:24

Suraj wrote:Actually it is a very good idea to move some of those TFTA sardars from the stupid clown show at Wagah (it's over now, is it ?) and instead utilize them to stand around during negotiations with China. Plays on the the latent negative mental imagery they have been raised upon.

Mainland Chinese, HKers and even older Taiwanese who are KMT folks who fled to Taiwan during civil war - all of them have this same mental image burned into their heads of scary and wicked turbaned Indian soldiers. It's a culturally ingrained memory of theirs.


Actually we should saturate the LAC with the Thambi's from the Madras Regiment...

Then use Rajnikant speaking in Chinese to blast propaganda to the Chinese troops...

I read that what was seared into the Chinese memory was of head geared Indians know towing to the British and hence their rather derogatory references to Indians..


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