India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rajpa » 23 Sep 2020 18:18

--duplicate
Last edited by rajpa on 23 Sep 2020 18:19, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rajpa » 23 Sep 2020 18:19

Prem Kumar wrote:
ManuJ wrote:In this entire conflict, has India dared to occupy a single inch of land that is on the other side of the Chinese claim line? Think not.

What India has done is that it has further sanctified the LAC and the Chinese claim line


Good points! Our position & expectations have been weakened to such an extent that laying claim to one's own areas is considered a victory.

1) In June, we were negotiating literally with a pleading tone, because we were caught unawares (like Kargil)
2) What 19 Bihar reminded us was our spine
3) SFF action put us in a better negotiating spot

But still, we are negotiating with them to vacate our own land. The Armed Forces have ensured that our new negotiating position is stronger, but the sought after solution from the Indian side still seems to be diplomatic. This plays into the enemy's hands because they can permanently stay where they are & our current position becomes the new status quo. Fingers 4 - 8 gone.

I don't think we are contemplating a military action to kick them out from all their ingressed areas. A good time to do it would be when the Chinese conscript rotation happens and they are not yet acclimatized.


We have just started responding vigorously to their previously aggressive actions. I am sure lots of planning is going on to consider how to push forward in some other not so clearly demarcated "border areas". It will slowly unfold.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby anupmisra » 23 Sep 2020 19:25

Aditya_V wrote:So they are saluting CCP and not PRC! Ah fighting for the party i.e Xitler and not for country.


A fact to end all arguments going forward about this relationship:

BRF newbies and some old timers must never be deluded about the fact that the People's Liberation Army is the regular armed forces of the People's Republic of China (PRC)'s founding and ruling political party, the Communist Party of China (CPC). The PRC laws confirm the leadership of the Communist Party over all the armed Forces of China and prescribe the nationwide military command of the Central Military Commission (CMC) of the PRC. The PLA is obliged to follow the principle of the Communist Party's absolute civilian control of the military or "the Party commands the guns", not vice versa. Its commander-in-chief is the Chairman of the CMC. (source: Wiki, in fragments)

Akin to the Wehrmacht which swore its allegiance to Der Fuehrer. Hitler, PLA swears its allegiance to Shitler, the grand Poohbah.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vijayk » 23 Sep 2020 19:26

https://www.asiatimesfinancial.com/ccp- ... ate-sector
CCP announces plan to take control of China's private sector
President issues 'important instructions' to all regions to boost party control over private enterprise and rejuvenate the nation; all firms will need employees from the party to boost law abidance and moral standards


I think XITLER is preparing for Third World war

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 23 Sep 2020 19:35

anupmisra wrote:
Aditya_V wrote:So they are saluting CCP and not PRC! Ah fighting for the party i.e Xitler and not for country.


A fact to end all arguments going forward about this relationship:

BRF newbies and some old timers must never be deluded about the fact that the People's Liberation Army is the regular armed forces of the People's Republic of China (PRC)'s founding and ruling political party, the Communist Party of China (CPC). The PRC laws confirm the leadership of the Communist Party over all the armed Forces of China and prescribe the nationwide military command of the Central Military Commission (CMC) of the PRC. The PLA is obliged to follow the principle of the Communist Party's absolute civilian control of the military or "the Party commands the guns", not vice versa. Its commander-in-chief is the Chairman of the CMC. (source: Wiki, in fragments)

Akin to the Wehrmacht which swore its allegiance to Der Fuehrer. Hitler, PLA swears its allegiance to Xitler, the grand Poohbah.



Looks like CPC did root cause nalysis of the collpase of Soviet union and decided the Soviet Army was nationalist and after World War II had developed nationalistic thinking independent of the Communist Aprty. The Soviet army launced the coup and when it was opposed it got into a moral crisis as to how could it be opposed when it acted in national interest, and folded. That ended the Soviet Union.
So CPC has ensured since 1992 that PLA is subservient to the CPC and not the PRC.
This makes PRC and the head of state more like the Empire and Empire has its own flaw of folly.

Folly is acting against self-interest as defined by Barbara Tuchmann.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby tsarkar » 23 Sep 2020 20:06

Good Summary ManuJ. Despite the ambiguity, I'm hoping we discarded our Dharmic notions and occupied strategic heights irrespective of their disposition.

https://www.indiatoday.in/news-analysis ... 2020-09-18

In fact, there has been a growing consensus in China that a China-India conflict is somewhat inevitable, if not now, but in the future and most likely earlier than the Sino-US conflict and if China handles this well, it will provide more mileage to China at the global level but if it falters, “the China-India conflict in the new era will mark the beginning of China's decline”.


From a Chinese perspective, they think they've acquired the critical mass to dominate Asia. And before taking on the US, a conflict with India will test & hone their capabilities at a significant but lesser scale than a conflict with US. Just like Japan before taking on the US in the 1940's conquered China in the 1930's. The Chinese are following the same line of thinking.

However, if this gets escalated into a larger military conflict, Chinese generals like Wang Hongguang, a former deputy commander of China’s Nanjing Military Region, suggest a four pronged strategy to deal with India, firstly, by seizing air supremacy over Ladakh and simultaneously capturing electronic control systems, destroying India’s command network, air defence network (radar network), and air command network, secondly, targeting India’s key infrastructures, artillery positions, armoured clusters, logistics storage warehouses, oil depots etc., thirdly, occupying key strategic heights, dividing and trapping the Indian deployments by cutting off the Depsang Plain and the Siachen Glacier, and finally, occupying National Highway 1 from Srinagar to Leh and thereby cutting off the connection between Ladakh and the outside world.


Just like the Japanese initiated WW2 with a carrier strike on Pearl Harbour, the Chinese war will be initiated with a massive Cyber Attack on military and civil networks and infrastructure closely coupled with a massive Information Warfare campaign. Thereafter they will initiate missile, air and artillery strikes to take out Indian air, artillery support and logistics. Troop movement will be their last step.

They emulate the US a lot and see boots on the ground as the last step after cyber, information, air, firepower & logistics superiority has been achieved.

During the Dark Ages before the middle ages, in the West, Franks, Goths, Vandals emulated the Romans a lot. In the East, Arabs and Turks emulated the Romans. They also served as auxiliary troops. When the final conflicts with the Romans came, both on West and East, Roman tactics and strategy were better used by the Franks, Goths, Vandals, Arabs and Turks.

The Chinese are aping the Americans in a similar manner. And they seek regional followed by global dominance.

Its very clear even when we do normal trading and business with them. In my last businiess trip to China in 2019, their attitude was clear. Even in US owned companies, they barely tolerated US heads of China business units and were outrightly hostile to ANZ, Indian, South Korean heads of China business units. Thai and Filipino managers were treated with downright contempt.

https://www.abc.net.au/news/2020-09-21/ ... s/12678610

This story is true of any global executive working in China.

They are confused regarding Indians. They expect Indians to be servile like Pakistanis, Thai & Filipinos but are taken aback when we show a spine. They think Indians are pursuing a colonial agenda and being British/American agents when Indians should be servile towards the Chinese. The fact that most Indians have a mind and spine of their own is not grasped by them because of their total servility to the party and emperor.

Singapore Chinese see themselves as ethnically similar to Mainland Chinese. Singapore allies itself with India to face Islamist threats like Malaysia & Indonesia but will ally itself with China incase of any conflict involving China.

Conflict not a question of "if" but "when" and "where". What we need to hone is our Cyber Warfare and Information Warfare capabilities.
Last edited by tsarkar on 23 Sep 2020 20:44, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Paul » 23 Sep 2020 20:39

Just like the Japanese initiated WW2 with a carrier strike on Pearl Harbour, the Chinese war will be initiated with a massive Cyber Attack on military and civil networks and infrastructure closely coupled with a massive Information Warfare campaign. Thereafter they will initiate missile, air and artillery strikes to take out Indian air, artillery support and logistics. Troop movement will be their last step.


Might turn out to be a Finland USSR war redux.....

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby tsarkar » 23 Sep 2020 20:46

Paul wrote:Might turn out to be a Finland USSR war redux.....

Good One! And the Finns occupied Soviet Territory for most of the war. Post WW2 the Soviets left the Finns along given the extent of bleeding and hemorrhaging they got potentially weakening them at other fronts and overall.

We need to similarly bleed and hemorrhage the Chinese to leave them weak when facing the Japanese or US/ANZ. A bleeding and hemorrhaging war is not worth fighting and that is what Zorawar Singh and the Dogras did to them. If the Dogras can do that, the whole of India can do more. That is what Major Shaitan Singh and Major Dhan Singh Thapa did in 1962.

That is what the Vietnamese did to French, US & Chinese even if the latter scored Pyrrhic victories.

That is what the Afghans did to British, Soviet and Americans even if the latter scored Pyrrhic victories.

Personally I am confident of esprit de corps at IA infantry company & battalions, Army Supply Corps troops, Artillery batteries, Air Force Squadrons to operate independently when networking and communications is disrupted.

The Finns, Viets, Afghans and IA units can operate independently towards a national goal and that is something no cyber attack can hack. Information Attack can cause confusion but battalion leaders and JCO/NCOs give direction under those circumstances.

I hope our Corps Commanders are empowering our Battalion, Company, Battery and Squadron commanders & JCO/NCO to operate independently when the inevitable network & communication cyber attacks happen along with misinformation campaigns.

I hope like Sam Maneckshaw and Harbaksh Singh, the order to retreat is forbidden. In the Eastern Command, the Chinese inflicted casualties when our soldiers withdrew in disarray. Those brigades that stood and fought held ground and suffered lesser casualties.
Last edited by tsarkar on 23 Sep 2020 21:03, edited 2 times in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby khatvaanga » 23 Sep 2020 20:57

ramana wrote:
Looks like CPC did root cause nalysis of the collpase of Soviet union and decided the Soviet Army was nationalist and after World War II had developed nationalistic thinking independent of the Communist Aprty. The Soviet army launced the coup and when it was opposed it got into a moral crisis as to how could it be opposed when it acted in national interest, and folded. That ended the Soviet Union.
So CPC has ensured since 1992 that PLA is subservient to the CPC and not the PRC.
This makes PRC and the head of state more like the Empire and Empire has its own flaw of folly.

Folly is acting against self-interest as defined by Barbara Tuchmann.



absolutely. in his maiden speech as Prez Xi explicitly mentioned this particular example only - that China has to learn the correct lessons from USSR collapse, and for that the PLA should be an extension of the party. not the country. I can find those relevant bits, if needed.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 23 Sep 2020 21:14

night trial of Prithvi 2 last night to confirm operational readiness. Suspect this is in response to PLA deployment of IRBMs in Aksai Chin.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Sep 2020 22:19

^^ I was just thinking about this yesterdin. Though we screwed up on the Shaurya/Pragati front by endless trials, we still must have a stockpile of Prithvi 1, 2 and 3. The last one can hit upto 600 Km and they've been constantly improving in terms of their guidance and CEP. They're road mobile too and cannot be targeted easily.

If China hits our airports and oil/logistics nodes, we should hit them back with a barrage of Prithvis. Not just in Ladakh but even upto Hotan, which is well within the Prithvi range. They should bleed bad.

If nothing else, we should quadruple the production rate of Prithvis

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby VikramS » 23 Sep 2020 22:28

Prem Kumar wrote:^^ I was just thinking about this yesterdin. Though we screwed up on the Shaurya/Pragati front by endless trials, we still must have a stockpile of Prithvi 1, 2 and 3. The last one can hit upto 600 Km and they've been constantly improving in terms of their guidance and CEP. They're road mobile too and cannot be targeted easily.

If China hits our airports and oil/logistics nodes, we should hit them back with a barrage of Prithvis. Not just in Ladakh but even upto Hotan, which is well within the Prithvi range. They should bleed bad.

If nothing else, we should quadruple the production rate of Prithvis


If the CCP/PLA attacks with missiles, India needs to a Dolittle Raid.

Hit high profile targets on China's East Coast. Let fires rage in their biggest ports. Sink a few PLAN ships.

Strike in a manner which they never thought they would be struck.

There will be losses; but they will be worth it.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 23 Sep 2020 22:39

I really wish such non-linear actions happen, but know better than that from experience. If a war breaks out, there will be talks/strategies to "contain" it:

1) Hitting PLAN, cities would be escalatory
2) Lets keep the battlespace localized
3) The Army leadership prefers Infantry as a solution to most problems. So, lets count on the bravery of officers/jawans to win this one for us. We will fight Dharmic like Mahabharatha: a Maharathi will fight a Maharathi, an Athirathi will fight an Athirathi etc

What's becoming very clear is that the rot of politicial peacenik'ism has spread to the Armed Forces leadership as well. I don't believe anyone ever planned to actually fight a 3 month war with China. The IA for instance, thought that their day job was to do COIN in Kashmir

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RKumar » 23 Sep 2020 22:45

shyamd wrote:night trial of Prithvi 2 last night to confirm operational readiness. Suspect this is in response to PLA deployment of IRBMs in Aksai Chin.


I would say, we may have tested some new capabilities. Prithvi class don’t require operational readiness trials after 20+ years of induction and 75+ tests.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 23 Sep 2020 22:59

ET says
The missile was randomly chosen from the production stock and the entire launch activity was carried out by Strategic Force Command (SFC) of the Army and monitored by scientists of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of the training exercise, official sources said.

I think they will be upgrading some for tactical use by IA for anti runway ops.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 23 Sep 2020 23:32

Prem Kumar wrote:...
Good points! Our position & expectations have been weakened to such an extent that laying claim to one's own areas is considered a victory.

...

As a matter of fact, it is a victory. Victory against past entrenched inertia. It is quite correct to celebrate it. Celebrating it is a positive reinforcement for the change and an encouragement to continue in the same direction.

I think you, the OP, and other bandwagoners are exhibiting a very wrong attitude, demanding nothing less than instant, overnight, and complete reversal of policies and habits of past 70+ years.

If your child has been consistently last in the class due to lack of self-confidence, and then manages to change his attitude enough to bring up his level to the middle of the class, will you thrash your child with a belt for not coming first in the class, or will you say, whatever you did to make that happen, good show, keep doing it, because it is working?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sraj » 23 Sep 2020 23:45

tsarkar wrote:.........the Chinese war will be initiated with a massive Cyber Attack on military and civil networks and infrastructure closely coupled with a massive Information Warfare campaign. Thereafter they will initiate missile, air and artillery strikes to take out Indian air, artillery support and logistics. Troop movement will be their last step.

.......Conflict not a question of "if" but "when" and "where". What we need to hone is our Cyber Warfare and Information Warfare capabilities.


Decentralized, guerrilla tactics with laser focus on their troops, and a back to basics approach on communications. Will mitigate effect of some of these capabilities. But the planners surely have this figured out.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Larry Walker » 23 Sep 2020 23:56

https://youtu.be/zezpFSYoBfE

Our response to these bat-munchers!! The man that matters.. Not shiny toys.. Only the strong survive... JAI HIND!!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jayram » 24 Sep 2020 00:14

Goosebump time. Rivals anything that Hollywood can put out. Amazing production. Thanks for posting.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rpartha » 24 Sep 2020 00:51

Not a bad article especially coming from Print...

https://theprint.in/opinion/linking-lac ... na/507702/

Linking LAC peace with good relations shows India still doesn’t get China

India’s threat to China is simple: show aggression at LAC and pay a cost in worsening ties. But the value of the threat, and hence its credibility, is questionable.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2020 01:32

shyamd wrote:ET says
The missile was randomly chosen from the production stock and the entire launch activity was carried out by Strategic Force Command (SFC) of the Army and monitored by scientists of Defence Research and Development Organisation (DRDO) as part of the training exercise, official sources said.

I think they will be upgrading some for tactical use by IA for anti runway ops.


I want them to take out the x number of S-400 batteries of the PLA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2020 01:33

khatvaanga wrote:
ramana wrote:
Looks like CPC did root cause nalysis of the collpase of Soviet union and decided the Soviet Army was nationalist and after World War II had developed nationalistic thinking independent of the Communist Aprty. The Soviet army launced the coup and when it was opposed it got into a moral crisis as to how could it be opposed when it acted in national interest, and folded. That ended the Soviet Union.
So CPC has ensured since 1992 that PLA is subservient to the CPC and not the PRC.
This makes PRC and the head of state more like the Empire and Empire has its own flaw of folly.

Folly is acting against self-interest as defined by Barbara Tuchmann.



absolutely. in his maiden speech as Prez Xi explicitly mentioned this particular example only - that China has to learn the correct lessons from USSR collapse, and for that the PLA should be an extension of the party. not the country. I can find those relevant bits, if needed.


Please do so and can be posted in the 19th Congress thread also.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 24 Sep 2020 01:43

ramana wrote:I want them to take out the x number of S-400 batteries of the PLA.

Don’t think Prithvi is the ideal weapon for S 400. The commander will have SF, IAF and Brahmos at his disposal for that. Options will depend on location - they are moving assets around as are we.

Interestingly both parties have decided not to share geospatial photos to confirm verification of disengagement.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RCase » 24 Sep 2020 07:52


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SvhMLisRokA
#86 China's "5-Fingers" Approach to Strangling India | Cleo Paskal

Not sure if this has been posted before. Good to get a non-Indian perspective on Chinese thought process.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 24 Sep 2020 08:33

tsarkar wrote:.........the Chinese war will be initiated with a massive Cyber Attack on military and civil networks and infrastructure closely coupled with a massive Information Warfare campaign. Thereafter they will initiate missile, air and artillery strikes to take out Indian air, artillery support and logistics. Troop movement will be their last step.

.....



Would it make sense to commence an attack of this nature over winter months? Just as a surprise move? Cause massive loses in infrastructure and degrade Indian capabilities...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 24 Sep 2020 08:53

https://www.hindustantimes.com/india-ne ... ybUMK.html
How will China’s offensive play out in Ladakh? IAF war games has a answer
In tensions that began in early May, Indian and Chinese troops have come face-to-face at multiple points along the LAC.
Shishir Gupta, Hindustan Times, New Delhi, Sep 24, 2020.

Actual Control (LAC) in eastern Ladakh and in the occupied Aksai Chin region, apart from heavy weaponry and missiles, is indicative of the Russian influence not only on Chinese military equipment, but also in war planning and execution, according to a top Indian Air Force (IAF) officer.
The officer, who dissected the Chinese positioning and war plan in a worst-case scenario for HT on condition of anonymity, said that a Chinese offensive, if and when it comes, is likely to involve troops moving forward under a barrage of artillery and rocket fire, with surface-to-air missile batteries giving protection to their weapon systems from IAF attacks. “This is the old Soviet way of fighting a war, with troops based in depth areas (in this case, Hotan airbase 320km from the Line of Actual Control) providing the air-defence cover,” the officer added.
While several strategic experts believe that any future war will be fought with stand-off weapons used to force Indian fighters to remain on ground, the IAF’s “disperse, absorb, recoup and retaliate” strategy has been war-gamed enough times (including in the Gagan Shakti 2018 exercise) to repel China’s plans, the officer said. He explained that the reaction of the IAF to any offensive is faster than that of the PLA Air Force due to the distance of the LAC from air bases such as Hotan, Lhasa or Kashgar, and that PLA’s surface-to-air missile sites become vulnerable to the stand-off air-to-ground missiles of Indian fighters. “Once air-defence missile systems are knocked out, the amassed artillery, rockets and troop concentrations become exposed on the Tibetan desert, where there is no natural camouflage cover for these systems,” the officer said.
The officer cited above further said that while the PLA has packed depth areas with troops, any aggression on mountainous terrain will not be easy against a dug-in adversary like the Indian Army in Ladakh. The 1999 Kargil war taught the Indian army that when the aggressor is concentrated and exposed, it becomes vulnerable to air interdiction. This makes the effort to hit Indian troops, who are dominating strategic heights both in the north and south of Pangong Tso, harder in the winter months. Even a Chinese stand-off weapon, given its circular error of probability (a measure of precision) may find it hard to target dug-in troops sitting on mountaintops in sub-polar temperatures, and in the absence of cover from attacking forces in the cold Ladakh desert and the Soda Plains, he added.
The officer was confident that Indian forces could sustain a Chinese strike in a worst-case scenario.The military is prepared for a 10-day intensive war, with the Narendra Modi government allowing emergency purchases of critical ammunition and missiles after the 2016 Uri surgical strikes and 2019 Balakot strikes against Pakistan. “Any India-China hostility is unlikely to continue at an intense level without global intervention beyond 10 days,” the officer explained, adding that the indigenous ammunition is available for 40 days and conventional bombs for 60 days.
......
Gautam
Just 10 days? After that we have Rezang La 1962 all over again? We have again to pay a political price for the Amreekhan help as in 1962?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Anoop » 24 Sep 2020 09:42

g.sarkar wrote: Just 10 days? After that we have Rezang La 1962 all over again? We have again to pay a political price for the Amreekhan help as in 1962?


:shock: :eek: That is some extrapolation there. Rezang La 1962 happened under very different circumstances and it's worth checking out the casualty ratio for the PLA and IA in that action. If the PLA want a repeat of that action, IA will be happy to oblige given the force ratio and advantageous heights we have now. It's also worth considering whether the PLA/PLAAF have the ammunition in theatre to fight an intense 10 day war.

I don't know whether something was lost in translation between the IAF officer's statements and this report, but the Soviet model for warfighting was to have reserves that would exploit any opening that became available as the war progressed - if that meant a forward brigade/division were to be annihilated they were willing to bear that loss rather than reinforce that, as they waited for an opening elsewhere. Firstly, quite difficult to replicate that in the mountains and secondly, the losses for the PLA will be terrible.

My suspicion is that if rocket attacks occur, it will be on Indian civilian population centers, as a way to shock and deflate the nation. More likely, it will be informational warfare and cyber attacks on communications. There was an intelligence officer who described their icyber warfare capabilities in an interview on Bharat Shakti.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 24 Sep 2020 10:07

Our planning should've factored in at least a full month of intensive warfare.Missiles and ammo will evaporate in days. Look at the Iran- Iraq war,it took a few years before a cease-fire came into place. The PRC has vast stocks of weaponry and ammo which they will throw in to avoid a humiliating defeat and devastating loss of face. Every type of aircraft in our inventory,Hawks too, should be weaponised with PGMs and regular ordnance, as they would be very useful in prosecuting GA missions once major air defences have been neutralised.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 24 Sep 2020 11:01

A strong economy will underpin all the scenarios painted above... there has to be big time reforms to kick start economy... desi MIC... more focus on AF/Army..the war will be won/lost on land ..not in the sea ..sea will only see a few battles.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 24 Sep 2020 11:08

g.sarkar wrote:“Any India-China hostility is unlikely to continue at an intense level without global intervention beyond 10 days,” the officer explained, adding that the indigenous ammunition is available for 40 days and conventional bombs for 60 days.


I hope our planners haven't internalized BS like this! I've seen this drivel being repeated, as some sort of golden rule. All that the enemy has to do is to stretch out the war & we will be begging Amir Khan or Rooskies to intervene. We need to plan to fight for as long as needed to achieve our objectives.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 24 Sep 2020 11:14

shyamd wrote:Don’t think Prithvi is the ideal weapon for S 400. The commander will have SF, IAF and Brahmos at his disposal for that. Options will depend on location - they are moving assets around as are we.


Is Prithvi under the command of the SFC? If so, from a thinking/planning perspective, are we even looking at it as a conventional battlefield missile, under IA command?

I really hope we do, but whatever reports I've seen about Prithvi tests have always been done by SFC/DRDO. Happy to be corrected.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2020 11:20

Gautam,

The officer told a lot. It's all good.

ramana

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 24 Sep 2020 11:21

He is also thinking like me.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 24 Sep 2020 11:22

https://twitter.com/AshutoshGhazal/stat ... 7341233152
43 Bridges made by BRO across 7 states/ UTs in J&K-10 #Ladakh-7 #HimachalPradesh-2 #Punjab-4 #Uttarakhand-8 #ArunachalPradesh-8 #Sikkim-4 dedicated to the nation & Foundation Stone of Nechiphu Tunnel on road to #Tawang will be laid online by RM @rajnathsingh tomorrow at 10.30 am.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby g.sarkar » 24 Sep 2020 12:26

ramana wrote:Gautam,
The officer told a lot. It's all good.
ramana

On second thoughts, who is this Shishir Gupta, of Hindustan Times. Who pays him? And who is this unnamed IAF officer that says that India has the equipment and ammo for 10 days only. It has to be a misinfo job. Why should the IAF tell such a thing even if it were to be true? So, lungi discarded, mandarin class cancelled, and mullah & barber appointment (for circumcision) cancelled. Back to SDRE normal life.
Gautam

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pushkar.bhat » 24 Sep 2020 12:40

@LarryWalker great video. Clearly tells the Bat eaters that we train our boys to be Gamas in the Land of Lamas.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 24 Sep 2020 12:52

The 10 days is the third line reserve ammo...It doesn't mean we can only fight for 10 days.

As it was mentioned on twitter, the amount of ammo used in 71 on the Eastern front was less than IA's annual training quota! We fought for 14 days.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 24 Sep 2020 13:01

10 days of "intense" war ... 40 days of indigenous ammunition .. 60 days of conventional bombs ...

Why are we reading only a part of the whole story? If the war extends beyond 10 days, it will become a war of attrition and we have 40 days of reserves for that. Plus by then emergency purchase of "specialized" foreign ammo would kick in.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nandakumar » 24 Sep 2020 13:03

g.sarkar wrote:
ramana wrote:Gautam,
The officer told a lot. It's all good.
ramana

On second thoughts, who is this Shishir Gupta, of Hindustan Times. Who pays him? And who is this unnamed IAF officer that says that India has the equipment and ammo for 10 days only. It has to be a misinfo job. Why should the IAF tell such a thing even if it were to be true? So, lungi discarded, mandarin class cancelled, and mullah & barber appointment (for circumcision) cancelled. Back to SDRE normal life.
Gautam

He is the Executive Editor of HT, a fairly senior journalist and known to be partial to nationalist causes. So the access to an officer from IAF must have had official sanction. By the way he didn't say, the armed forces have ammunition only for 10 days. The reference to 10 days was for the period before international community intervenes. But the more serious lacuna in my opinion in the article is the absence of any reference to cyber warfare crippling productive capability before any formal military capability is unleashed. How would India react if a cyber attack that throws power grid off balance coupled with electronic traffic management system of Indian Railways being rendered ineffective before anything else? Does China have the capability to do something like that?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 24 Sep 2020 13:06

https://twitter.com/sneheshphilip/statu ... 9838876674
China is not planning to back down from Ladakh: @Stratfor analyst @SimTack tells me.

#China is laying the foundation today for tomorrow’s crisis with India.

Work by him and @detresfa_ shows China actually began building up after Doklam. Do watch.

While the initial Chinese move was indeed a surprise, it was apparent after some thought that the Chinese plan must have started post Doklam to avenge the "loss of face" then, it being just ONE of the drivers of the current standoff however.

That China is preparing for a future conflict should not come as a surprise.


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