India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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Rishi_Tri
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Rishi_Tri » 03 Oct 2020 13:28

PM Modi inaugurated Atal Tunnel today i.e., 3rd Oct 2020. Given how 2020 has gone, this indeed calls for big celebration. There shall be plethora of documentaries and articles done on Atal Tunnel, but still some notes from DD coverage of PM's address today at South Portal:

Atal Tunnel Length - 9.02 KM, Width - 10.5 Mts, Height - 5.5 Mts.
South Portal Height - 10,040 ft.
North Portal Height - 10,075 ft.

Naming the Ingress / Exits, Portals nice touch though I would have preferred 'Uttar Dwaar' and 'Dakshin Dwaar'. The vistas on either side of the tunnel are breathtaking.

Escape tunnel below the main tunnel:
Height - 2.25 mts, Width - 3.6mts. Wide enough for small trucks to be driven through.

Water draining tunnel below the Escape tunnel:
Water draining capacity of 3 million liters / day.

The above and some more stats here: https://www.livemint.com/news/india/ata ... 38516.html

PM in his address mentioned specifically about:

-Ordinance Factory Board and how they were as good as any once upon a time. Multi dimensional apathy has led to gradual erosion in capabilities.
-HAL has significant strengths that need to be properly harnessed.
-Military preparedness being hindered by hurdles placed in procurement of range of equipment including snow gear etc.
-Restrictions being put on import of defense articles to channel all requirements to local manufacturers
-Tejas being Nation's pride and how all attempts were made to 'box' the program. PM mentioned about Tejas in his Independence Day address too. Tejas (and my conjecture is all fighter programs including MWF, TEDBF, AMCA) is PM"s pet project and he has really taken to it.

Last but not the least: The tunnel shall take away the thrill of driving past 20ft+ ice walls, but it shall be equally thrilling to drive through the foremost high altitude engineering project in the world.

Now await the Zojila Tunnel and Chenab Railway Bridge.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 03 Oct 2020 13:45

Nothing new ...

http://chintan.indiafoundation.in/artic ... ith-india/
India’s resistance to an “expansionist mindset” has become a stumbling block for China’s onward march for supremacy in Asia as witnessed with the nearly five-month long standoff between the troops. India’s diplomatic, military and economic push back against China’s encroachments has earned New Delhi much needed moral support, regionally and globally.

...
In order to maintain a perception of supremacy and showcase asymmetry in power, China positioned heavy equipment for the long haul but also conveyed signals of territorial control by despatching foreign minister Wang Yi to Tibet. On the other hand, the Indian Prime Minister, Defence Minister and the Defence Services, Army and Air Force Chiefs have visited Ladakh.

...
India’s standing the ground, mobilisation of battle-hardened mountain divisions, high-altitude training and special operation forces that took over crucial mountain-tops dominating the Kailash ranges shocked the Chinese. The expected easy victory over India has become a noose for the PLA, now mired in “barren” lands and incurring huge costs in personnel, equipment and in strategic terms. The arrival of body bags from Galwan in large numbers unnerved China as it may have cascading effects on the politico-military establishment at Beijing as it faces growing criticism on its handling of the Covid-19 epidemic.

...
India’s construction last year of the 260-km long Daulat Beg Oldi-Darbuk-Shyok road provides a supply line all the way to the Karakoram ranges. The construction this year of feeder lines from this road to the Line of Actual Control was opposed by China, despite the fact that China had already constructed such feeder lines to its perceived LAC. China now began feeling the heat with India making preparations for troop movements and logistical supplies to the front. India’s preparations since 2009 on “fighting a two-front war under nuclear threshold” has paid it rich dividends.

...
Thirdly, China’s commentators have suggested that India’s abrogation of Article 370 from its Constitution and reorganisation of Jammu & Kashmir and Ladakh Union Territories is a reason for the Chinese activism in the area. However, despite Indian Foreign Minister Jaishankar’s assurances that there would be no implications for the cartography, China had upped the ante. China also raised the dormant issue of Kashmir in the United Nations Security Council four times in the last year in vain. China raising issues over the removal of domestic Article 370 as a justification for its land grab in Ladakh defies logic as in 2017 despite Bhutan or Sikkim not changing any domestic legislation and despite China’s 2002 assurances of not changing the status quo, Beijing had sent troops to Doklam.

...
Despite Beijing having acquired arms and technologies from the US since the early 1980s (embargoed following the Tiananmen Square incident in 1989), China is not only accusing India of abandoning the non-alignment movement (as Yan Xuetong stated recently in a webinar) but also of coming too close to the US. This has raised fears in Beijing as in the past Washington collaborated closely with the PRC during the Bangladesh Liberation War in 1971, at the United Nations Security Council on resolution 1172 against Indian nuclear tests in 1998 and recently during the Obama-Hu 2009 proposals for a G-2.

...
Fifthly, China’s media and think-tanks project an alarming picture of Tibetans living in India and on India’s policies. Even though India recognised Tibet as a part of China in 1954, China’s paranoia about losing Tibet is enormous. This concern is expected to increase as China prepares to sinicize Tibetan Buddhism and assimilate Tibet into socialism with the kind of surveillance systems and control used in Xinjiang.

The growing Tibetan activism, the role of Special Frontier Force in regaining control over mountain tops on the southern banks of Pangong Tso and other developments are unnerving for China which wanted to raise acclimatised Tibetans or Gorkhas into the PLA. To make up for loss of legitimacy in Tibet, some Chinese scholars have gone to the extent of advocating institution and support to any governments in exile for Kashmir and Sikkim.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 03 Oct 2020 13:50

For those interested ... About a Chinese move around Mera La and Thang La in their approach to Yangtse, Arunachal Pradesh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ecuaJaL3TFw
When Army Thwarted Chinese Move On Arunachal Border During Kargil

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 03 Oct 2020 13:51

Just started watching ... for those interested ..

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=e7Ae17ksEhc
The Border Crisis and the Future of India-China Relations


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 03 Oct 2020 14:05

Mollick.R wrote:
VikramS wrote:
Need multi-spectral analysis to be able to distinguish between dummys and real...

It adds to the Intelligence workload.


pushkar.bhat
Remember that this is perfectly valid deception. Remember a balloon with the same dimensions as a launcher can cause a incorrect estimation of your strength or worst even expending of precious resources to destroy hot air balloons. Lets not laugh at it and instead learn from it.


Absolutely. Starting from WWII , D-day this thing is under valid military practice.

Their western communist Birathen are way ahead in this............






A New Weapon in Russia’s Arsenal, and It’s Inflatable
By Andrew E. Kramer, Oct. 12, 2016

https://www.nytimes.com/2016/10/13/world/europe/russia-decoy-weapon.html


A Look at Russia's Army of Inflatable Weapons Blow-up fighter jets and tanks can make a military seem bigger than it really is.
BY KYLE MIZOKAMI, OCT 12, 2016

https://www.popularmechanics.com/military/weapons/a23348/russias-army-inflatable-weapons/


Even a 2 bit army uses such decoys ... deception. As someone rightly said ...what's being questioned is its use for propaganda

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Lisa » 03 Oct 2020 15:10

A question for those who are better informed, is there anything stopping us from digging sideways in the Atal Tunnel to create silos for critical storage?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 03 Oct 2020 18:08

Lisa wrote:A question for those who are better informed, is there anything stopping us from digging sideways in the Atal Tunnel to create silos for critical storage?

Any silos will have to be in the other side of the all the mountains ranges/passes (which is our logistics bottle neck) on route to frontline locations in Ladakh - Atal tunnel is closer to the plains than to Leh?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 03 Oct 2020 19:24

Rishi_Tri wrote:
PM in his address mentioned specifically about:

-Ordinance Factory Board and how they were as good as any once upon a time. Multi dimensional apathy has led to gradual erosion in capabilities.
-HAL has significant strengths that need to be properly harnessed.
-Military preparedness being hindered by hurdles placed in procurement of range of equipment including snow gear etc.
-Restrictions being put on import of defense articles to channel all requirements to local manufacturers
-Tejas being Nation's pride and how all attempts were made to 'box' the program. PM mentioned about Tejas in his Independence Day address too. Tejas (and my conjecture is all fighter programs including MWF, TEDBF, AMCA) is PM"s pet project and he has really taken to it.

Nothing better than xitler forcing Modi and co to spend everyday looking at china problem. xitler the double agent. Hopefully xitler will destroy china and ccp.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Sanju » 03 Oct 2020 20:24

Did not see this posted.

Twitter

Image

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 03 Oct 2020 20:38

Explains the 3 main Chinese claim lines lines that one needs to know when trying to understand their negotiating position in Ladakh.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l5kgfqQqVUk
The Nub Of India-China Boundary Row


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 03 Oct 2020 21:20

abhik wrote:
Lisa wrote:A question for those who are better informed, is there anything stopping us from digging sideways in the Atal Tunnel to create silos for critical storage?

Any silos will have to be in the other side of the all the mountains ranges/passes (which is our logistics bottle neck) on route to frontline locations in Ladakh - Atal tunnel is closer to the plains than to Leh?


if u have to dig tunnels wont u dig them closer to where the action is...whats the point of digging tunnel 300 to 400 km away from LAC/LOC behind all the high passes etc ?? !!! u can see quite a few near chushul ... tawang.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 04 Oct 2020 07:48

pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1311681683347795974
As some of our retired generals have observed, the PLAGF's current deployments do *not* seem suitable for launching a major offensive. But, the Chinese have brought in a lot of precision guided munitions into theatre & India should be very careful when they start pulling back.

The same thing was stated by one retired general when talking to Nitin Gokhale about Chinese deployment on Doklam plateau while discussing the eastern theater situation.

Well then the best way is to move across the LAC and close the gap with the Chinese and make it difficult for them to use the missiles?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pratyush » 04 Oct 2020 09:33

samirdiw wrote:
pankajs wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/1311681683347795974

The same thing was stated by one retired general when talking to Nitin Gokhale about Chinese deployment on Doklam plateau while discussing the eastern theater situation.

Well then the best way is to move across the LAC and close the gap with the Chinese and make it difficult for them to use the missiles?



Not when dealing with an enemy with PGM. The best way to deal with them would be to prevent detection through deception and camoflage. Is the target can be found and fixed then it can be hit.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby madhu » 04 Oct 2020 12:40

Pakistan to merge Gilgit-Baltistan with the mainland under China`s pressure for completion of CPEC
How can this be possible legally? Will the rest of the world agrees for such a move? If this news is true then it is nothing short of slave trade. Capture land and people sell it to different people.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 04 Oct 2020 13:29

What is legal? Might is right till someone else decides to change the status again.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 04 Oct 2020 14:08

From legality perspective - if pak changes status of GB - it gives India the necessary reason for military action to attack for taking over GB

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 04 Oct 2020 14:11

China could be stocking pgm to hit Indian positions on GB side

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 04 Oct 2020 14:12

I suspect Pakistan has sold significant rights to land and resources in G-B to China in the secretive CPEC contracts. Probably when they got a couple of billions of bail out money when the Saudi's pulled the plug on oil credits recently. The move to make G-B a province will make it easy to defend against any future challenges to this agreement on legal grounds internally or externally because it offers the fig leaf of no longer being officially recognised as a "disputed territory" within the Paki setup.

China's current aggression is Ladhak is also motivated by their need to secure these rights in G-B from any future Indian attack.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby A Nandy » 04 Oct 2020 15:31

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/lada ... hok-kargil

In 2011, when the DS-DBO road was under construction, it was found that it had been laid on flat terrain along the bed of the Shyok River instead of being built on the mountain side. Every year, as melting snow flooded the Shyok river during the summer months, some portions of the road were damaged.

The road remained closed for up to 94 days due to the rise in water level in the Shyok River. This left it unfit for military use. A large part of it, around three quarters by some accounts, was realigned by the BRO.

The criticality of the DS-DBO road can be understood from the fact that the Galwan Valley and the Depsang Plains, two of the five areas along the Line of Actual Control in eastern Ladakh where India and China are currently locked in a standoff, lie on this road. The road provides access to far-flung areas abutting the 38,000 square km territory of Aksai Chin under Chinese occupation.

“Other than DBO road, projects in Demchok and Kargil are also underway,” the Director General of BRO said, adding that the agency is working on many more projects in the eastern and western parts of the Union Territory of Ladakh.


With work on Atal Tunnel complete, the BRO is shifting focus towards the 13.5-km-long tunnel planned at the Shinku La pass on the Nimmu-Darcha-Padam road. The National Highways and Infrastructure Development Corporation Limited is currently working on a detailed project report for the tunnel.

The Ministry of Defence is planning to expedite work on more tunnels in border areas to make the movement of troops and equipment easier. These include the tunnels at Tanglang Pass, Lachung Pass and Baralacha Pass.


https://www.hindustantimes.com/cities/a ... h1nEI.html

With Atal Tunnel, formerly known as the Rohtang Tunnel on the Manali-Leh highway, set to be opened for traffic this month-end, the Centre has set the ball rolling for the construction of another high-altitude tunnel under the 16,730-ft-high Shinku La (pass) in Himachal Pradesh.

The National Highways and Infrastructure Development Corporation Limited (NHIDCL) under the ministry of road, transport and highways has speeded up the detailed project report (DPR) work on the 13.5-km Shinku La Tunnel connecting the Union Territory of Ladakh and tribal Lahaul and Spiti district of Himachal Pradesh.
Last edited by A Nandy on 04 Oct 2020 18:47, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 04 Oct 2020 18:33

There was a note on the Atal tunnel about adding a railway line to it.Great idea. We have tram lines aong roads in many cities and combining road/ rail infrastructure in the mountains will dramatically assist logistics for both mil. and civil purposes. Along with what's happening on the ground,another dozen heavy-lift helos like MI-26Ts will be invaluable in srift airlift of AVs,arty and border rd. heavy machinery.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby A Nandy » 04 Oct 2020 18:50

From the pictures it appeared as if the tunnel is just wide enough for 2 lanes:
Image

I hope all these tunneling activity can be used to incubate TBM technology and spin off a tunneling company.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 04 Oct 2020 20:31

Pratyush wrote:
samirdiw wrote:Well then the best way is to move across the LAC and close the gap with the Chinese and make it difficult for them to use the missiles?



Not when dealing with an enemy with PGM. The best way to deal with them would be to prevent detection through deception and camoflage. Is the target can be found and fixed then it can be hit.


Hi Pratyush, thanks for the response. The suggestion was that if we keep moving in (kind of a slow blitzkrieg you get the idea) as the Chinese move back there wont be a stationary target for them to hit. This is something they would least expect a shy India to do. After the loss of land they will be perplexed and panic, move back and lose more territory or stay to be in the line of fire of their own PGM's. We should fight this with the way they are not used to how Indian establishment thinks?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 04 Oct 2020 20:45

madhu wrote:Pakistan to merge Gilgit-Baltistan with the mainland under China`s pressure for completion of CPEC
How can this be possible legally? Will the rest of the world agrees for such a move? If this news is true then it is nothing short of slave trade. Capture land and people sell it to different people.


It is obviously illegal and violation of UN Agreements...
If Pakistan does it, I personally feel India should launch an offensive to retake the land...
-
Coming to the rest of the world, UN agreements would hardly matter to them... Their support depends on their own strategic calculations...
Turkey, China etc. will be obviously against it...

Since GB is a very strategic location bordering Afghanistan, China & Central Asia, Western powers would not want it to go into Chinese hands... So, I guess they may support India on this matter...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Rishirishi » 04 Oct 2020 21:27

LakshmanPST wrote:
madhu wrote:Pakistan to merge Gilgit-Baltistan with the mainland under China`s pressure for completion of CPEC
How can this be possible legally? Will the rest of the world agrees for such a move? If this news is true then it is nothing short of slave trade. Capture land and people sell it to different people.


It is obviously illegal and violation of UN Agreements...
If Pakistan does it, I personally feel India should launch an offensive to retake the land...
-
Coming to the rest of the world, UN agreements would hardly matter to them... Their support depends on their own strategic calculations...
Turkey, China etc. will be obviously against it...

Since GB is a very strategic location bordering Afghanistan, China & Central Asia, Western powers would not want it to go into Chinese hands... So, I guess they may support India on this matter...



Isin't this just positive from the Indian perspective. Pakistans takeover of G&B just strengthen the Indian case of devolution of JK into UT. In a way the case is now settled.

On another note RAW urgently needs to use the situation in Xinjan to start a boycot of China and chines goods among Muslims. There are talk of this in London, to arrange a protest march against the expansion of the Chinese embassy.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby D.Mahesh » 05 Oct 2020 08:41

Anoop wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=U89FKElYvrc

Lt. Gen. Kulkarni explains mountain warfare in some detail.


Read & listen v.carefully. This is 1 of 5-7 best experts worldwide.
Disregard critics. Not even one guy who prattles "War is too important to be left to generals," has ever won a war

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby wig » 05 Oct 2020 10:20

https://www.newindianexpress.com/magazi ... 04559.html

Dragon’s dilemma: Why China can’t win a war with India
excerpts
On August 29, the Indian Army launched its own deception with ‘Operation Snow Leopard’ and took control of the dominating heights in the Chushul region, making the important Chinese Moldo Garrison vulnerable. It has consolidated positions in the vulnerable Spanggur Gap to block further Chinese movement.

more insight
Indian troops ascended mountain peaks to take strategic vantage points along the south bank of Pangong Tso, clearly overlooking Chinese troop movements. The angry PLA placed an anti-aircraft gun on Black Top, another dominant position overlooking positions in Rezang La. Then, in a nocturnal raid, India’s Special Frontier Force (SFF) took Black Top Hill, say media reports.

According to the reports, Indian forces have secured all tactical heights on the Kailash Range that include Helmet, Gurung Hill, Magar Hill, Mukhpari, Rezang La and Rechin La. Kailash Range was vacated in 1962 once Rezang La and Gurung Hill fell to PLA, cutting off the road to Chushul. The Chushul airfield was destroyed. The Chinese road to the south bank of Pangong Tso that passes 1.5 km to the east of Black Top and 1.5 km to the North of Helmet has been knocked out, preventing PLA from reaching the south bank of Pangong Tso.

The PLA will need to construct a new road—a challenge considering the snow may render the region inoperable soon—which will be vulnerable to attack from the Indian Army. The army now controls 3 km of the south bank, which had been previously held by the Chinese. China is resorting to outlandish tactics, showing desperation and anger. In the context of the Galwan Valley clash, which killed Colonel Santosh Babu, an interesting fact is that the Chinese Army has recruited martial artists in five new militia divisions comprising former members of a Mount Everest Olympic torch relay team and fighters from a mixed martial arts club, reported China National Defence News.


strengths
The myth that the PLA, the world’s largest army, is numerically superior to India is a misconception. China’s troop strength is 22.6 lakh soldiers while India has 13.6 lakh. However, China has only 14.52 lakh reserve soldiers while India has 28.44 lakh. The Global Firepower website monitors the armed forces of over 100 countries of which India and China are ranked 4th and 3rd respectively. According to the website, India has a total of 42.07 lakh soldiers, while China has 37.12 lakh soldiers. There are 200,000 to 230,000 PLA troops in the region bordering India but many of these units are posted to suppress dissent in Xinjiang or Tibet, and protect its border with Russia.

The PLA does not rotate its JCOs who will stay in that theatre command throughout his career

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Aditya_V » 05 Oct 2020 12:13

pankajs wrote:What is legal? Might is right till someone else decides to change the status again.


Exactly, too many Indians are stuck in Legal Muba Jumbo- Pakistan does not have laws it is just might is right- it does not matter, Pakis have had Physical control of GB and have been doing whatever they like, GB is populated like Tibet and Ladakh. So whatever the Pakis do, as long we take it back it will not matter.

Like the 4 villages in Turtuk area, if you are the stronger militarily, occupy the land, and provide decent Goverence to the people, it will not matter, it the numbers in Valley and which allows for Insurgency.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pushkar.bhat » 05 Oct 2020 13:15

I agree with Aditya_V, rather then being struck in the Dharmic Rightiousness, we need to do what is right for us. If taking over GB or bifurcating Pakistan is the right thing for Indian interests the we should not hesitate to go headlong for the necessary action.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 05 Oct 2020 21:06

Karna, thanks for pointing out. Post removed.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 05 Oct 2020 21:20

This thread had gone slow..in the last couple of days.

Last few times, when ever felt so , some BIG Breaking news crash landed.
Hoping and expecting some more consolidations news before winter fully sets in. Winter starts a little early in Chinese side..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 05 Oct 2020 22:38

Video in tweet shows PLA (possibly on the "Bump" looking down at IA positions at Gurung/tabletop).
https://twitter.com/TibetPeople/status/ ... 9185757184

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 05 Oct 2020 22:42

https://twitter.com/Chellaney/status/13 ... 0519120896
[quoteB]rahma Chellaney
@Chellaney
Media manipulation, disinformation and lawfare are key tools in China's hybrid warfare against India. China last week planted a story in a leading Indian daily through its Beijing correspondent that resurrected a hazy 1959 claim line to help justify its encroachments since April.
...
Blending disinformation with lawfare, this claim (a red herring) has achieved its aim of sparking a debate in India on China's intentions, without Beijing even stating this claim on record. After this plant, China placed full-page ads on Oct. 1 in another Indian newspaper group.
...
These propaganda pages, not clearly marked as ads, were designed to look like real news articles. Indeed, China's embassy has presented them on its site as the Indian media's "special pages" on China. These examples illustrate why Indian media must not aid China's hybrid warfare.[/quote]
Sounds reasonable to me, there have been no official word on "1959 claim" from the Chinese, but folks in the media were falling over themselves to explain the background and what it meant.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby abhik » 05 Oct 2020 22:44

wig wrote:https://www.newindianexpress.com/magazine/2020/oct/04/dragons-dilemmawhy-china-cant-win-a-war-with-india-2204559.html

Dragon’s dilemma: Why China can’t win a war with India

There has been no indication of this to be actually true, a real shooting war would have started in case that had happened.
Last edited by Rakesh on 05 Oct 2020 22:55, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Please DO NOT quote an entire post to just put a one-liner. Thank you.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Guddu » 06 Oct 2020 04:40

Indian troops ascended mountain peaks to take strategic vantage points along the south bank of Pangong Tso, clearly overlooking Chinese troop movements. The angry PLA placed an anti-aircraft gun on Black Top, another dominant position overlooking positions in Rezang La. Then, in a nocturnal raid, India’s Special Frontier Force (SFF) took Black Top Hill, say media reports.


This seems to be new info, from the newindianexpress article.

Philip
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 06 Oct 2020 08:14

The PLAAF have repoetedly inducted more H-6 bombers at their rear bases equipped with LTR stand-off missiles,numerous special forces helos,etc.for a brigade size airborne assault.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 06 Oct 2020 08:28

pushkar.bhat wrote:I agree with Aditya_V, rather then being struck in the Dharmic Rightiousness, we need to do what is right for us. If taking over GB or bifurcating Pakistan is the right thing for Indian interests the we should not hesitate to go headlong for the necessary action.
there is a small window of opportunity before winter.
Preemt and strike. Occupy key areas by inserting forces and supply them with airbridge. Enforce nfz in the skies. Once winter sets in, it'll be too late for tsp/pla to mount ground based counter attack. Over winter, consolidate positions and come spring, be ready.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Pratyush » 06 Oct 2020 10:31

samirdiw wrote:
Hi Pratyush, thanks for the response. The suggestion was that if we keep moving in (kind of a slow blitzkrieg you get the idea) as the Chinese move back there wont be a stationary target for them to hit. This is something they would least expect a shy India to do. After the loss of land they will be perplexed and panic, move back and lose more territory or stay to be in the line of fire of their own PGM's. We should fight this with the way they are not used to how Indian establishment thinks?


As long as the enemy has the ability to see your forces and target them, it makes no difference as to where you are on the battlefield. Some of the best ways to deal with them are as follows.

1) Camouflage, deception and decoys
2) Destruction and disruption of enemy reconnaissance and C2 assets.

If your own forces are unable to accomplish the above objectives. Then nothing you can do can save them from destruction from an enemy equipped with RMA technologies.

If you are able to bring your own RMA capabilities to the table. Then who ever is able to achieve the above listed priorities first will win.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby tsarkar » 06 Oct 2020 18:41

http://ajaishukla.blogspot.com/search?u ... -results=7

Indian military officers in Monday’s talks, including the outgoing commander of the Leh corps, Lieutenant General Harinder Singh, and his designated successor, Lieutenant General PGK Menon, flatly refused to withdraw from their advantageous positions, pointing out that these heights were all on territory that India had traditionally controlled and patrolled.

The Indian delegation, which also included the Ministry of External Affairs’ official in charge of the China desk, demanded the PLA withdraw from points of intrusion such as Pangong Tso, Gogra-Hot Springs and the approaches to Chushul. It is unclear whether the Indian side has also demanded a Chinese withdrawal from Depsang, where PLA troops have penetrated about 15 kilometres into India – the deepest point of intrusion.

Given this disagreement, the PLA delegation led by the South Xinjiang Military District chief, Major General Liu Lin, declined to discuss any pull back by Chinese troops.


So if I understand the negotiations process correctly, China wants India to pull back from Indian territory before China pulls back from Indian territory :roll:

Also they send a Major General to talk to two Lt. Generals that is a major breach of protocol.

Why are we even talking to these jokers? And even if we are talking, the only point should be "status quo ante"

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Karna » 07 Oct 2020 00:45

Also they send a Major General to talk to two Lt. Generals that is a major breach of protocol.


It isn't and this has been clarified earlier. Org structure and ranks aren't the same for each country armies.

For ex : The DGMO in India is 3 star officer where as for porkistan it is a 2 star.

The current GOC of 14 Corps leaves office next week and hence the designated GOC is accompanying him to these talks since last month

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Larry Walker » 07 Oct 2020 02:51

Philip wrote:The PLAAF have repoetedly inducted more H-6 bombers at their rear bases equipped with LTR stand-off missiles,numerous special forces helos,etc.for a brigade size airborne assault.

They will try to grab a price of land which is atleast tactically important to them and which they can resupply in winter from their established bases. Given PLA's penchant to fight a mechanised war - their airborne will try to capture such an area where the PLAGF can quickly push back IA and linkup before winter sets. I suspect they will try some stunt on DBO airfield. Their Armor can go till there and once we loose DBO - we will jot be able to mount a counter attack before winter ends and by then PLA will convert it into a fortress.


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