India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

The Military Issues & History Forum is a venue to discuss issues relating to the military aspects of the Indian Armed Forces, whether the past, present or future. We request members to kindly stay within the mandate of this forum and keep their exchanges of views, on a civilised level, however vehemently any disagreement may be felt. All feedback regarding forum usage may be sent to the moderators using the Feedback Form or by clicking the Report Post Icon in any objectionable post for proper action. Please note that the views expressed by the Members and Moderators on these discussion boards are that of the individuals only and do not reflect the official policy or view of the Bharat-Rakshak.com Website. Copyright Violation is strictly prohibited and may result in revocation of your posting rights - please read the FAQ for full details. Users must also abide by the Forum Guidelines at all times.
darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2727
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 12 Oct 2020 21:19

madhu wrote:
nam wrote:I want them to stay longer.

Keeping army on the toes for long that too in such harsh condition is no good. It will wear out and also fatigue sets in.

Remember chin is in comfortable oxygenated tent where are our boys are braving the nature.


Plus wear and tear of the equipment. Just check the toll that operation Parakram took on men and equipment and most of that deployment was at much lower altitudes. I hope GOI knows what it is doing. The siachenisation of LAC is not a good strategy. I still feel that we will go for hard combat once we are ready.

As per reports only in Ladakh we have more than 60000 troops mobilised. We would need atleast as many to guard Himachal and Uttarakhand borders. Then there is Sikkim front and then there is Arunachal Tibet border which is probably even longer than Ladakh LAC section. And almost all these areas are even more logistically challenging than Ladakh. Most of the LAC anywhere consists of high or super high altitudes. Keeping more than 200000 troops forward deployed for all times to come. Is it even sustainable? Hence I come to the conclusion that sooner or later we will need to fight the Chinese.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4054
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 21:48

madhu wrote:Keeping army on the toes for long that too in such harsh condition is no good. It will wear out and also fatigue sets in.

Remember chin is in comfortable oxygenated tent where are our boys are braving the nature.


If the Chinese decide to stay, what choice do we have? Are we ready to accept a deal, other than return to status quo?

Our army is the most experienced army at HAW. They know how to manage it.

We need the Chinis to stay, because that is the only way to keep GoI awake. The moment, in fact the next second, the PLA leaves, GoI will roll back all anti-China steps. Conventional build up will be stopped, as GoI will get delusional about "managing threats using talks". Alliance with US, JP, Taiwan will be slowed down, as this alliance is the ONLY way to economically reach 10T and above.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4054
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 21:51

I read in one of the news report, that Indian app developers were trying to get a TiKTok/Chinese app alternative as fast as possible in to the market.

They felt the time period is around 3 months, before the Chinese app ban is lifted.. Such is the level of confidence our people have in GoI.

Luckily for us the Chinese have been more adamant than GoI expected..

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4054
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 12 Oct 2020 22:02

I just found out Azeris are license producing israeli loitering drones... we on the other hand. :roll:

sreerudra
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 56
Joined: 23 Oct 2016 09:20

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sreerudra » 12 Oct 2020 22:03

https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/defence ... as-2308845

'Pak, China Appear On Mission...'
What is Rajnath hinting at? Another frontier to the west is opening up? How can India deal with two side wars? History suggests Hitler was crushed with multi-front war?

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 12 Oct 2020 22:18

sreerudra wrote:https://www.ndtv.com/india-news/defence-minister-rajnath-singh-inaugurates-44-bridges-in-border-areas-2308845

'Pak, China Appear On Mission...'
What is Rajnath hinting at? Another frontier to the west is opening up? How can India deal with two side wars? History suggests Hitler was crushed with multi-front war?

History also suggests that Hitler was the aggressor and had stretched himself/Germany thin because of constant wars.

rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3439
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rsingh » 12 Oct 2020 22:19

darshhan wrote:
madhu wrote:Keeping army on the toes for long that too in such harsh condition is no good. It will wear out and also fatigue sets in.

Remember chin is in comfortable oxygenated tent where are our boys are braving the nature.


Plus wear and tear of the equipment. Just check the toll that operation Parakram took on men and equipment and most of that deployment was at much lower altitudes. I hope GOI knows what it is doing. The siachenisation of LAC is not a good strategy. I still feel that we will go for hard combat once we are ready.

As per reports only in Ladakh we have more than 60000 troops mobilised. We would need atleast as many to guard Himachal and Uttarakhand borders. Then there is Sikkim front and then there is Arunachal Tibet border which is probably even longer than Ladakh LAC section. And almost all these areas are even more logistically challenging than Ladakh. Most of the LAC anywhere consists of high or super high altitudes. Keeping more than 200000 troops forward deployed for all times to come. Is it even sustainable? Hence I come to the conclusion that sooner or later we will need to fight the Chinese.


To fight Chinese are supposed to come out of heated and oxygenated tents, climb the hills and face IA. No need to do dhoti shivering. Salam.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 12 Oct 2020 22:26

Can Chinese troops "acclimatized" to the heated tent and oxygen rich environment fight IA for any length of time outside their heated tents?

rsingh
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3439
Joined: 19 Jan 2005 01:05
Location: Pindi
Contact:

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rsingh » 12 Oct 2020 22:32

hnair wrote:Abhik, since you seem to be skirting admins questions for past two pages - should we be concerned about your keen interest over last two pages about a hyper-sensitive area?


:rotfl: :rotfl: and we gave him details of every nuts and bolts. We have to careful of such stupid posts.

nachiket
Forum Moderator
Posts: 8100
Joined: 02 Dec 2008 10:49

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nachiket » 12 Oct 2020 23:51

VikramA wrote:if we are not occupying black top , then we are again repeating at least 50% of the mistakes on 62 that we made in the chushul sector. the only saving grace is that we control mukpuri near rezang la.

I think it is best to move beyond the narrow discussion about black top. Rohit Vats' video which he posted long back shows what the IA's moves in August mean for the entire Chushul region as a whole. To be on the safer side he assumed Black Top was still in Chinese hands but despite that it shows how IA's moves change the game in the region. This fixation on black top here is pointless.

And nobody demanding we take Black Top has yet pointed out exactly how to do it without starting a shooting war.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4054
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2020 00:50

Just for reference here, Ops Barbarosa at it's peak was a front of 4100 KM. Rajnath Singh today mentioned our two fronts: 7000KM!

We are damn lucky for having the Himalayas.

And our biggest weakness is not concentrating on air power. Only powerful airpower can guard such a long frontier.
Last edited by nam on 13 Oct 2020 00:55, edited 1 time in total.

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby tsarkar » 13 Oct 2020 00:52

LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/danvir_chauhan/status/1315218174778830849?s=19
4 days back Chinese Infantry supported by 40-50 tanks in proper extended line just like an attack proper, moved dangerously close to 6 Grenadiers positions by 50 meters and returned. A demonstration extremely dangerous. What if our troops had opened fire??? #indiachinastandoff

This is called a Gambit in warfare. It is used to assess an opponent's reaction and measure it. Ofcourse the opponent can also measure your movement and be measured in his response.

A similar Indian gambit in 1971 was the Battle of Garibpur
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Battle_of_Garibpur
The Battle of Garibpur was a battle that was fought by the Pakistan Army against the Mukti Bahini and the Indian Army on 20–21 November 1971. This battle was unique as it was fought 12 days before the official start of 1971 war. The battle started after an Indian army 14 Punjab battalion supported by PT-76 tanks from the 45 Cavalry and Mukti Bahini moved in to capture the areas around Garibpur inside the Pakistani territory.


The way I read the situation, it will be a loss of face for China in front of its Dhimmi states (Pakistan, NoKo, Indonesia, Malaysia...and Philippines, Singapore and South Korea) if it de-escalated or withdrew without tangible gains. India has made enough noise and any Chinese de-escalation will be seen as defeat.

Note: I have marked South Korea as Dhimmi given its historical inclination https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tributary_system_of_China
As for Singapore, its majority are Chinese historically settled in Malaya in ethnic conflict with the Malays

Peak Winter in the region is Jan & Feb, so early winter conflict is possible in the region, given that we captured Turtuk from Pakistan between 8-14 December 1971 https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Turtuk#Ba ... urtuk_1971

A good window for Chinese are 3 November 2020 to 20 January 2021. This is when US Administration will be out of action.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Timeline_ ... l_election
The general election is scheduled to be held on November 3. The U.S. Congress is then scheduled to certify the electoral result on January 5, 2021, and the new or incumbent president and vice president will be inaugurated on January 20, 2021.


Even if the US tried to intervene, they will use the Legal War option (via US proxies) of their Hybrid War concept to bog down US administration.

Europe has its own trade agenda and has no interest in the region. Neither has Australia or Japan any benefit to gain by intervening.

The casus belli (an act or situation that provokes or justifies a war) for a Chinese attack is being given by Farooq Abdullah. The Chinese can claim invitation from "leader of Kashmiri people". Farooq, Omar, Mehbooba who have vested interest need to be put out of media access immediately.

This will be a two front war with Pakistan seeking to avenge Kargil 1999. Every 20 odd years, a new generation matures and they get an itch to get into a war with India. Its 21 years since Kargil.

Like Pearl Harbour, the opening attack will be cyber, followed by fire assaults. Chinese Infantry will come last when earlier attacks have degraded enemy capability significantly.

Anyways this is something our Generals know as well and have hopefully gamed during war games. I hope our Political, Administrative & Military Leadership are prepared and in sync like 1971.

Lets see how this plays out...

tsarkar
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3263
Joined: 08 May 2006 13:44
Location: mumbai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby tsarkar » 13 Oct 2020 01:45

nachiket wrote:
VikramA wrote:if we are not occupying black top , then we are again repeating at least 50% of the mistakes on 62 that we made in the chushul sector. the only saving grace is that we control mukpuri near rezang la.

I think it is best to move beyond the narrow discussion about black top. Rohit Vats' video which he posted long back shows what the IA's moves in August mean for the entire Chushul region as a whole. To be on the safer side he assumed Black Top was still in Chinese hands but despite that it shows how IA's moves change the game in the region. This fixation on black top here is pointless.

And nobody demanding we take Black Top has yet pointed out exactly how to do it without starting a shooting war.


I would request Admins go a bit easy on Abhik & Vikram. Occupying heights is critical in mountain warfare, especially before the shooting begins. Black Top is within "Indian" LAC but beyond "Chinese" LAC. Given that Chinese have no respect for "Indian" LAC, atleast when Clubs and Sticks were used, Black Top could have been occupied.

I hope it doesnt end up in a situation like Jelep La below. The author's credentials are well established. Maj Chandrakant Singh VrC 4 Guards (1RAJPUT) exploits have been covered in the book The Garud Strikes. His account of 1971 is also there on Bharat Rakshak Army Page.

https://salute.co.in/cover-story-tibet- ... -nathu-la/

COVER STORY-TIBET ABANDONED AND THE LESSONS OF NATHU LA
written by Maj Chandrakant Singh, VrC August 14, 2017

The stand off between Indian and Chinese troops on the Dolam plateau in Bhutan has all the potential of leading to full scale war. My Battalion 4 Guards (1RAJPUT) has had three tenures in Sikkim including two at Jelep La and I have been fortunate to have visited the state several times thereafter. I also have personally known Gen. Sagat Singh and the Sikkimese Princesses Pema Tseuden and Pema Choki whose contributions to India and Tibet need to be better known.

The Chumbi Valley is like a dagger pointed at the neck. Only a thin strip of land between the Himalayan state of Bhutan and Tibet connect Assam to the rest of India. In 1903 it was through the Jalep La pass and Chumbi Valley that the Younghusband mission went to Lhasa massacring many innocent and unarmed Tibetans on the way. Not many people know that both the 1890 Anglo Chinese Convention and the 1893 Tibet Sikkim Convention have a Hong Kong link. The negotiations were carried out between two Englishmen Henry Durand from the Indian side and James Hart representing the Chinese Imperial Customs and Frontier Service. The British were keen to obtain concessions for their interests in China particularly Hong Kong and Kowloon. To obtain these they accepted some spurious demands of the Chinese. Hong Kong as an entre-port for opium was a more attractive market than barren Tibet. The 1890 treaty was thus signed by a Britisher who was employed by the Chinese, and not by any Chinese official! Also not well known is the fact that the Chumbi Valley towns of Gyantse and Yatung used to be the summer capitals of Sikkim till 1948.In 1903, it was through the Jelep La pass and Chumbi Valley that the Young husband mission went to Lhasa massacring many innocent and unarmed Tibetans on the way.

History

Chinese claims over Tibet are weak at best, notwithstanding their high decibel claims that Tibet was always a part of China, which is not factual. Chinese claims on Tibet are premised on the fact that during the reign of the Mongol Emperor Chengez Khan and his heirs particularly Kublai Khan when Marco polo visited China, Tibetan representatives were seen in the Court at Peking. But at that time, China itself was a part of the Mongolian Empire and Tibet and Mongolia have always had close relations which continue even till today. When Chengez and Kublai ruled China, the relationship between Tibet and Mongolia was never between master and vassal, but as equals. So why did Nehru cede Tibet to China?

Nehru’s knowledge of history was sketchy and moreover stemmed from the viewpoint of the English, who wrote that history. But more than his lack of knowledge of history was his shocking ignorance of geography. In a letter he wrote to the Chief Ministers during his journey from Sikkim to Bhutan via the Chumbi Valley, he expressed surprise at seeing trees and forests when all he expected was a barren waste land, which perhaps also explains why he thought Ladakh too was a wasteland where not a blade of grass grew! His admiration of the socialist cause and the Stalinist model of governance made him more amenable to the Chinese viewpoint at the expense of the Tibetan people, which has led to the near extinction of an ancient civilisation and people, and also created an insoluble problem for India. Morally and legally, the ‘Hanification’ of the Tibetan population is genocide by another name. Linguistically, racially, culturally, and genetically the Tibetan are a different race from the Han Chinese and so are the Mongols, Manchurians, and many other ethnic minority groups, millions of whom have been killed in the process of Hanification.

Few people know that prior to the adoption of Buddhism as a state religion and its emphasis on ahimsa as a guiding principle for state policy and individual conduct, the Tibetans were a powerful and warlike people who dominated an immense swath of land starting from China to Western Iran. This lesson perhaps must never be lost on nations who seek to maintain their independence. Also not well known is the fact that when the Chinese Army invaded Tibet in 1950, they found themselves short of food even after having ransacked the country side of all food supplies. It was the Nehru government which supplied huge quantities of rice from India via Jelep La Pass in Sikkim. Then, in 1952, Nehru agreed to downgrade India’s representation in Tibet to consul general, implicitly conceding that Tibet’s foreign relations were controlled by China. Two years later he agreed to withdraw the Indian Military posts and trade representative from the Chumbi Valley that had been established by Young husband. During the hasty and ill planned withdrawal from Yatung and Gyantse several lives were lost including that of the Company Commander of the 2nd Battalion Jat Regiment Major Nagal, whose son, Lt Gen BS Nagal is the present Director of the Centre for Land Warfare Studies (CLAWS). With great difficulty and persuasion was a team from 1Maratha under Major Brar allowed to proceed to Yatung and recover the bodies (Brar later rose to the rank of Lt Gen. and is more prominently known for his role in clearing the Golden Temple of terrorists). Nehru also had the telegraphic link to Lhasa and other facilities handed over to China. India thus, not only gave up all claims in Tibet but also surrendered Tibet’s rights to have independent relations with the outside world. India’s trade representatives at Kashgar, Gartok, Yatung and Gyantse were withdrawn cutting off centuries old links to Tibet. In the Panchsheel Agreement signed a year later at the Bandung Conference, whatever residual interests and rights that India had in Tibet evaporated.

Another fact which has been kept hidden from the gaze of the Indian public is that in 1951, just after the relics of the Buddha’s disciples which had been returned by UK had been exhibited in Gangtok and Kalimpong, India not only facilitated the journey to Lhasa but played host to the newly appointed Chinese Military Governor of Tibet, General Chang Chin Wu even after having received reports of atrocities being committed by the first batch of Chinese invaders led by General Liu Po Cheng. At this point in time, access to Tibet from China was very difficult, so much so that the Chinese Military Governor of Tibet had to proceed to Lhasa via Calcutta and Sikkim like Younghusband before him. If one Chinaman found it difficult to go to Lhasa directly how much more difficult it would have been to move an entire Army and then support it. India’s blindness after Independence led to the fiasco in 1962.
PRINCESS PEMA TSEUDEN OF SIKKIM WAS MARRIED TO A HIGH GOVERNMENT OFFICIAL OF TIBET WHO BELONGED TO A NOBLE FAMILY RELATED TO AN EARLIER DALAI LAMA. IT WAS SHE WHO WARNED THE GOVERNMENT OF INDIA OF THE INVASION OF TIBET BY CHINA IN 1950. SHE WAS KNOWN FOR HER BEAUTY, CHARM, SOPHISTICATION AND DEDICATION TO THE TIBETAN CAUSE. MANY PEOPLE WHO MET HER WERE CAPTIVATED BY HER AND EVEN NEHRU WAS REPUTED TO HAVE BEEN ENTRANCED. AFTER THE TAKEOVER OF TIBET BY CHINA SHE MOVED TO CALCUTTA AND STARTED A BUSINESS MANUFACTURING TIBETAN JEWELLERY. NEHRU HAD ARRANGED A LICENCE FOR HER TO IMPORT SEMI-PRECIOUS STONES. FOR MANY YEARS SHE WAS THE BEST SOURCE OF INFORMATION ON THE HAPPENINGS INSIDE TIBET AND OUR INTELLIGENCE BUREAU AND THE CIA MADE USE OF HER SERVICES AND THOSE OF HER SISTER PEMA CHOKI MORE POPULARLY KNOWN AS PRINCESS KULA.

The Face-off at Nathu La At this point, mention need to be made of what happened in 1967, just a few years after the debacle in 1962. Here, the role of General Sagat Singh needs special mention. Sagat is rightfully remembered for his role in the 1971 War, but to me, his audacity and moral courage in disregard of his superior’s orders in taking on the Chinese in Sikkim in 1965 and 1967 is unequalled. It must not be forgotten that these actions took place just three years after India had been humiliated by the Chinese in 1962. Our Government and the defence establishment was extremely apprehensive and nervous about our Army’s ability to handle the Chinese. Sagat however had no such doubts and turned the tables on the Chinese. For this action alone he deserves a special place in the annals of Indian military history, for the action at Nathu La restored our self-confidence and pride which proved to be battle winning factors in 1971.

In 1965, during the Indo Pakistan War, the Chinese, in order to help Pakistan, issued an ultimatum to India to vacate Nathu La, Jelep La and the adjacent passes on the Sikkim Tibet boundary. General Manekshaw was the Eastern Army Commander and General Aurora was GOC XXXIII CORPS under whom was 17 Division with Sagat as GOC at Gantok, responsible for Nathu La and Cho La. Jelep La near the tri-junction of India, Bhutan and Tibet was under GOC 27 Mountain Division. Eastern Command and HQ XXXIII Corps had issued orders to 17 Div and 27 Div that in case of hostilities they were to vacate the posts on the watershed and fall back to the depth positions at Chhangu and Lumthu respectively, leaving behind only observation posts at the passes.

Sagat however felt that the natural boundary was the watershed at the passes and adjoining heights and refused to pull back his troops. Instead, he went about having the border demarcated by laying a wire fence at the pass to clearly demarcate the boundary. Sagat understood that in the mountains, anyone who controlled the heights had an unassailable advantage so he went about strengthening his positions and siting his observation posts from where they could look deep into the Chumbi Valley and bring down effective artillery fire right up to Yatung. There was a lot of pushing and jostling the like of which we have seen recently on TV but Sagat refused to budge and in fact at Cho La which is a few kilometres North of Nathu La there was a fire fight and the Chinese were pushed back a couple of kilometres.

Whilst Sagat’s Division was holding its ground and refusing to vacate the dominating features, the GOC of 27 Division at Jelep La and the Tri-junction area withdrew his troops to the rear positions vacating the dominating heights which were promptly occupied by the Chinese. This domination of the heights is what is making the Chinese assume an aggressive posture. The defence of this area is critical for India, should we lose it then it is all the way downhill to the plains of North Bengal and the narrow strip of land barely thirty kilometres wide that connects Assam to the rest of the country. Having gained an upper hand at Jelep La, the Chinese felt confident enough to try their luck again at Nathu La in 1967 but here they did not take into account the presence of Sagat. Having gained an upper hand in 1965 he was not the man to give it up, come what may. He had appreciated that dominating Nathu La was critical to the defence of Gangtok which is a few thousand feet lower and not too far from the pass. Loss of Nathu La would thus endanger Gangtok. So, keeping the national interest in mind, he was prepared to take on the Chinese with all the resources at his command, even at the risk of incurring the disapproval of his superior commanders and putting his career on the line.

On 13 August 1967 our observation posts reported that some Chinese troops had crossed over and dug some trenches on our side of the border. When they were challenged they filled up the trenches and withdrew. But they installed several loud speakers and beamed propaganda on to our side. Sagat countered this by installing more powerful loudspeakers in a tit for tat game of one-upmanship. He however realised that the Chinese were starting something new and after getting a clearance from Corps Headquarters decided to demarcate the border and strengthen the barbed wire fencing with concertina coils. The Chinese tried to prevent this and several eye ball to eye ball encounters which ended in scuffles took place. The Jat troops of 3 Grenadiers like all Jats are big in build and have a powerful physique so they always got the better of the Chinese. The Chinese, realising that they could not best the Grenadiers started to resort to stone pelting which was answered in a like manner by our troops. Several minor injuries were sustained by troops on both sides. On 11 December things came to a head when the Chinese opened fire on our troops laying the wire. Col Rai Singh, CO 2 Grenadiers was hit and so were several other troops. Seeing their CO hit, the Grenadiers went mad with rage and charged the enemy positions. Several of our men were mowed by Chinese machine guns but some managed to reach their bunkers and took on the Chinese with their bayonets and hand to hand combat. But a company of 18 Rajputs and the Engineer personnel laying the wire were caught in the open and suffered heavy casualties. Sagat, as was his habit, was close to the front. Seeing the situation had escalated and we had suffered considerable casualties, he ordered artillery fire from his medium 5.5 inch guns to be brought down on the Chinese positions. Ever since he had taken over 17 Division in 1965 he had positioned his artillery observation posts on heights overlooking the Chinese positions not only in the front but deep inside Chumbi Valley upto and beyond Yatung. These artillery OPs did a sterling job, and the Chinese positions at Nathu La were devastated and positions in the rear were also targeted and destroyed. Sagat as a Divisional Commander did not have the authority to open fire with his medium guns, so the moment HQ Eastern Command and XXXIII came to know that he had deployed his medium guns they called for an explanation. Anticipating this, Sagat made himself unavailable on radio and telephone and continued to conduct the battle according to his own plan till all Chinese positions at the pass had been neutralised. Thereafter, a ceasefire was declared and bodies of the dead exchanged. Many acts of unprecedented valour were performed and Sagat ensured that they received due recognition. There were also a few cases of desertion of duty which Sagat enquired into and the guilty were brought before courts martial and those found guilty were punished. We had suffered heavy casualties — 65 dead and about 145 wounded — but the Chinese had lost many times more. Their dead were about three hundred and of the wounded about twice that number. After the ceasefire when normalcy had returned Sagat’s Division was in a commanding and advantageous position at Nathu La, but his superiors were none too pleased at his open defiance of their instructions and after a couple of months Sagat was shifted to the command of a non-operational formation, 101 Communication Zone based at Shillong. But no one could keep Sagat down, for just a few months later, Sagat was leading the campaign against the rebels in Mizo Hills and in two years had successfully restored normalcy.

Whereas Sagat went on to win further laurels in the service of India his counterpart, the obedient commander of 27 Division at Jelep La who vacated the pass when not even threatened has left behind a permanent headache and security problem for India. The problem has got more complicated as the exact spot where the recent incident has taken place lies within Bhutan and we are guarantors of Bhutan’s defence. It was heartening to see big built Sikhs pushing back the Chinese in the present face off at Dolam.


The obedient commander of 27 Division at Jelep La was General G G Bewoor who became Chief of Army Staff over Lt. Gen. Sagat Singh and Lt. Gen. Prem Bhagat.

My only hope and prayers is that we've a Sagat Singh, Thimaiyya or Thorat out there and not a G G Bewoor, Thapar or Kaul out there.

The Indian system is notorious for promoting the least meritocratic of people.

Rest everything else we're well covered and top of our game.
Last edited by tsarkar on 13 Oct 2020 02:29, edited 3 times in total.

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 13 Oct 2020 01:53

pankajs wrote:Two points ...

1. I have a bigger issue than the highlighted portion. EVEN if the Chinese agree to a fifo AND withdraw, given the nature of the infra on either side of the LAC, it is faster/easier for them to re-occupy the vacated positions, both theirs and ours. What then?

Indian leadership has to be very careful on how the withdrawal is structured and implemented on the ground.

2. Restoration of status quo ante has been our demand all along and my guess is that might be the reason why Lt Gen Prakash Menon (Retd) has written what he has written. I haven't read the piece but am just going by your summary.

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... lks-154491
Control over LAC heights key to talks
Also, the approach roads to the garrison, Spanggur Tso and Spanggur Gap are now within the visual range of Indian troops from the heights they have taken over. The Spanggur Gap is one of the 13 natural gaps in eastern Ladakh mountains, and securing the gaps is vital to counter China’s military thrust. India fears that vacating the heights along the 70-km front could be strategically risky unless the Chinese agree to demarcate the LAC on ground. These positions are within the Indian claim line of the LAC. “If we vacate now, the PLA can attempt to capture these. The climb from their side is easier,” said a functionary in the know of things. Both Rezang La and Renchin La are located at a height above 16,000 feet.
Sequencing is not as important as nailing the LAC down such that the Chinese are unable to make a grab for the vacated positions along the Kailash range. We obviously cannot trust the Chinese word on it and agreements have never prevented the Chinese for advancing their claim/control.

ramana
Forum Moderator
Posts: 54822
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 13 Oct 2020 06:40

tsarkar, Please look at Lt. Gen Sagat Singh actions in Goa in Operation Vijay.

KL Dubey
BRFite
Posts: 1016
Joined: 16 Dec 2016 22:34

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KL Dubey » 13 Oct 2020 09:25

pankajs wrote:Can Chinese troops "acclimatized" to the heated tent and oxygen rich environment fight IA for any length of time outside their heated tents?


Normally, no.

However, due to the recent training from leaders of martial arts clubs (kungfu, sanda etc), we should expect superhuman feats of endurance from the PLA.

They may even fight without helmets since they have by now grown thick black hair like Bruce Lee (the original "Black Top").

madhu
BRFite
Posts: 428
Joined: 12 Oct 2005 17:00
Location: India

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby madhu » 13 Oct 2020 11:03

KL Dubey wrote:
pankajs wrote:Can Chinese troops "acclimatized" to the heated tent and oxygen rich environment fight IA for any length of time outside their heated tents?


Normally, no.

However, due to the recent training from leaders of martial arts clubs (kungfu, sanda etc), we should expect superhuman feats of endurance from the PLA.
.

What if these people in O2 tents are not the actual fighting force. The actual fighting force is getting acclimatized some where else and will be swapped/rotated when indian men are worn out.

I dont see a point of any advantage of chines action. Keep troops at border and achieve what?

pankajs
BRF Oldie
Posts: 14734
Joined: 13 Aug 2009 20:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 13 Oct 2020 11:18

^^
Indian troops too get rotated. Most of the Indian troops too are deployed in the depth while a small fraction man the border posts/positions where alertness will cause fatigue.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4054
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2020 12:47

No news about yesterday's meeting. If neither side is agreeing, I don't see the need for 11 hours meeting. MEA would have come blaring it's lungs out and patting itself, if there was a breakthrough.

The recent statements by RM seems GoI is not confident, there won't be a Chinese attack. US statements about 60k troops would have come from our MEA boss.

If we go in to winter, with a fight, then it is definite that there will be a conflict next year.

Roop
BRFite
Posts: 389
Joined: 01 Jan 1970 05:30

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Roop » 13 Oct 2020 13:26

tsarkar wrote:Farooq, Omar, Mehbooba who have vested interest need to be put out of media access immediately.


They need a hell of a lot more than that. If Farooq Abdullah's statement is really some kind of a wink/nod of encouragement to China, he has committed treason and should be put up against the wall in front of a firing squad and dispatched to his Seventy-Two.

Same for OA and Mehbooba if they are part of the plot.

yensoy
BRFite
Posts: 1835
Joined: 29 May 2002 11:31
Location: USA

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby yensoy » 13 Oct 2020 13:34

^^^^ Why would you want to create martyrs out of spent forces when the best treatment for them is to ignore their theatrics while equating the "cause" they stand for with patently anti-national behaviour? They are more useful shooting themselves in the foot.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1546
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2020 14:42

madhu wrote:
KL Dubey wrote:
Normally, no.

However, due to the recent training from leaders of martial arts clubs (kungfu, sanda etc), we should expect superhuman feats of endurance from the PLA.
.

What if these people in O2 tents are not the actual fighting force. The actual fighting force is getting acclimatized some where else and will be swapped/rotated when indian men are worn out.

I dont see a point of any advantage of chines action. Keep troops at border and achieve what?


Our troop induction and deinduction will finish before winter for formation slated for rotation.
No one is there permanently to get worn out!!!

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2727
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 13 Oct 2020 16:11

ks_sachin wrote:
madhu wrote:What if these people in O2 tents are not the actual fighting force. The actual fighting force is getting acclimatized some where else and will be swapped/rotated when indian men are worn out.

I dont see a point of any advantage of chines action. Keep troops at border and achieve what?


Our troop induction and deinduction will finish before winter for formation slated for rotation.
No one is there permanently to get worn out!!!


From ladakh to Arunachal and everything in between, more than 130000 troops would have been inducted. This is the minimum. Most probably the nos. would be higher. How do you rotate such huge numbers on continuous basis after every 3 months(siachen process). If this is the strategy GoI wants to adopt, then they better start draft i.e compulsory service like israel or south korea.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1546
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2020 18:46

darshhan wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
Our troop induction and deinduction will finish before winter for formation slated for rotation.
No one is there permanently to get worn out!!!


From ladakh to Arunachal and everything in between, more than 130000 troops would have been inducted. This is the minimum. Most probably the nos. would be higher. How do you rotate such huge numbers on continuous basis after every 3 months(siachen process). If this is the strategy GoI wants to adopt, then they better start draft i.e compulsory service like israel or south korea.


How did you come up with no of 130000?

Why do you need a saichen process everywhere?

Of the 4 divs or so in Ladakh not all are sitting on the heights.

The tactical options exercised by us will not be uniform across the entire border.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2727
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 13 Oct 2020 19:23

ks_sachin wrote:
darshhan wrote:
From ladakh to Arunachal and everything in between, more than 130000 troops would have been inducted. This is the minimum. Most probably the nos. would be higher. How do you rotate such huge numbers on continuous basis after every 3 months(siachen process). If this is the strategy GoI wants to adopt, then they better start draft i.e compulsory service like israel or south korea.


How did you come up with no of 130000?

Why do you need a saichen process everywhere?

Of the 4 divs or so in Ladakh not all are sitting on the heights.

The tactical options exercised by us will not be uniform across the entire border.


60000 in Ladakh only as per media reports. There in Himachal and Uttarakhand borders as well. Then there are Sikkim and Arunachal sections too. 130000 would be the lower estimate. Almost all of it is high altitude or super high altitude. Even if a soldier is not forward deployed, he will still have to go through acclimatization process. For eg leh which is far from the front line is still at 3500 meters altitude. Barahoti in uttarakhand is at 4700 meters. Tawang is 3048 meters as per google. Even the valleys in these areas would be much higher than the normal plains.

I agree with your point that tactical options exercised by us will not be uniform across LAC and it shouldn't be. But can you guarantee that in the event of Chinese suffering reverses in ladakh-gosthan sector, they will not open another front in Tawang. At the very least you have to strengthen your defences.
Once you take into account almost 4000 km long lac, the figure of 130000 doesn't seem too big to me.

So the best course of action according to me is to prepare your war fighting stocks to the maximum and then initiate the action whenever ready whether it is in the coming days or in March April time frame. In the meantime continue capturing more heights to keep chinese permanently on edge. Otherwise it would just be high altitude vacation for chinese in their centrally heated oxygen enriched snowflake condos.

nam
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4054
Joined: 05 Jan 2017 20:48

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 13 Oct 2020 19:35

Looks like we in deadlock. It is nearing time, when it will be stay for winter. Chinis might think, if you are staying for winters anyways, why not fire off few rounds...not to mention US elections providing the distraction.

Hope Chini positions and movements are been monitored.

If there is a fight, it will mostly start with Chini loitering drones and BM/rockets.

darshhan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2727
Joined: 12 Dec 2008 11:52

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshhan » 13 Oct 2020 19:54

nam wrote:Looks like we in deadlock. It is nearing time, when it will be stay for winter. Chinis might think, if you are staying for winters anyways, why not fire off few rounds...not to mention US elections providing the distraction.

Hope Chini positions and movements are been monitored.

If there is a fight, it will mostly start with Chini loitering drones and BM/rockets.

Those few rounds should be fired by us. Let us ruin their vacation. Loitering munitions will only be effective if chinese have customized them for high altitude operations. Ballistic missiles would be used for airbases and fuel/ammo depots etc. These will probably not be used against troops on the frontline and those entrenched on heights. MRLS, artillery and mortars would be used to maximum effect.Plus special forces

Haresh
BRFite
Posts: 906
Joined: 30 Jun 2009 17:27

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Haresh » 13 Oct 2020 20:00

tsarkar wrote:I hope it doesnt end up in a situation like Jelep La below. The author's credentials are well established. Maj Chandrakant Singh VrC 4 Guards (1RAJPUT) exploits have been covered in the book The Garud Strikes. His account of 1971 is also there on Bharat Rakshak Army Page.


tsarkar wrote:they found themselves short of food even after having ransacked the country side of all food supplies. It was the Nehru government which supplied huge quantities of rice from India via Jelep La Pass in Sikkim.


This beggers belief, nehru supplied the Hans with food?? Is this mentioned widely known? Unbelievable.

ks_sachin
BRFite
Posts: 1546
Joined: 24 Jun 2000 11:31
Location: Sydney

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ks_sachin » 13 Oct 2020 20:06

darshhan wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:
How did you come up with no of 130000?

Why do you need a saichen process everywhere?

Of the 4 divs or so in Ladakh not all are sitting on the heights.

The tactical options exercised by us will not be uniform across the entire border.


60000 in Ladakh only as per media reports. There in Himachal and Uttarakhand borders as well. Then there are Sikkim and Arunachal sections too. 130000 would be the lower estimate. Almost all of it is high altitude or super high altitude. Even if a soldier is not forward deployed, he will still have to go through acclimatization process. For eg leh which is far from the front line is still at 3500 meters altitude. Barahoti in uttarakhand is at 4700 meters. Tawang is 3048 meters as per google. Even the valleys in these areas would be much higher than the normal plains.

I agree with your point that tactical options exercised by us will not be uniform across LAC and it shouldn't be. But can you guarantee that in the event of Chinese suffering reverses in ladakh-gosthan sector, they will not open another front in Tawang. At the very least you have to strengthen your defences.
Once you take into account almost 4000 km long lac, the figure of 130000 doesn't seem too big to me.

So the best course of action according to me is to prepare your war fighting stocks to the maximum and then initiate the action whenever ready whether it is in the coming days or in March April time frame. In the meantime continue capturing more heights to keep chinese permanently on edge. Otherwise it would just be high altitude vacation for chinese in their centrally heated oxygen enriched snowflake condos.


Darshan the question is not off what we can do but how do we sustain the deployment of 130000 odd troops just from a human perspective. That was the question was it not.

Of the 60000 in Ladakh not all are fwd deployed. Heck we probably have less than a company strength on each features we have occupied. So men being worn is not an issue as they will be rotated as per the op plan of each bn within the 60000k along with normal deinduction / induction of of inf bns. For example our bn is near Pangong and tenure finishes now. I am sure adv party of new bn is already there.

This is assuming that is the new normal.

Anyway I am an armchair warrior I will ask High Command how this kind of planning is done.

But FYI in Sikkim esp on the plateau north east of Chungthang or there about s we already have perm presence. You can walk across the border. Once acclimatised conditions are not too bad. We know what options are available to the Chinese and you plan man management accordingly.

You would assume that our defences are planned in a manner that reinforcement s if reqd are part of the planning
Last edited by ks_sachin on 13 Oct 2020 21:07, edited 3 times in total.

sudarshan
BRF Oldie
Posts: 2545
Joined: 09 Aug 2008 08:56

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sudarshan » 13 Oct 2020 20:09

Haresh wrote:This beggers belief, nehru supplied the Hans with food?? Is this mentioned widely known? Unbelievable.


It *should* be widely known. I personally was shocked when I learned about this (it's come up on this forum before). Please do your bit to spread it on SM or wherever you have a voice. It would further sink pappu's fortunes, so go for it. I think we should make it a point to make this more widely known in time for the lovely chacha's b'day coming up in Nov.

But this would be better discussed in the strat threads than here, probably the neut/def Chinese threat thread.

SSridhar
Forum Moderator
Posts: 24186
Joined: 05 May 2001 11:31
Location: Chennai

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 13 Oct 2020 21:05

Haresh wrote:This beggers belief, nehru supplied the Hans with food?? Is this mentioned widely known? Unbelievable.

This is widely known.

In fact, there is another one, for which I do not have a reference right now, but have clearly read about it. That is, in 1950, China asked India permission to build a road from Kashgar to Lhasa.

RajaRudra
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 17 Sep 2019 14:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 13 Oct 2020 21:32

There could be some skirmishes, started by Communist goons(PLA)just before winter taken into consideration like US polls, Congress staged disturbances in India etc. Even if that does not happen and winter went peacefully, then China will sure try many things through out next summer.

So there is no need for playing good in winter. May be, we should use this winter to consolidate in many such unmarked heights just to keep the communist goons busy and arrive at some mutual negotiated settlement on winter. Again, that does not guarantee their good behavior in coming months though. But they will start understanding the COST factor.

RajaRudra
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 17 Sep 2019 14:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 13 Oct 2020 21:39

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 639685.cms

"China also noted that the Indian side has been ramping up infrastructure development along the border areas and stepping up military deployment, which it termed as the "root cause" of tensions between the two countries."

Larry Walker
BRFite
Posts: 319
Joined: 26 Nov 2019 17:33

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Larry Walker » 14 Oct 2020 02:45

PLA may be trying outnumber and outmanoeuvre tactic - keeping soldiers in O2 tents increases their deployment period before they need to be rotated out - so with number of troops in O2 tents at heights plus another bunch getting acclimitized they can generate superiority in numbers over a local region.

Cain Marko
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4622
Joined: 26 Jun 2005 10:26

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 14 Oct 2020 04:09

darshhan wrote:
nam wrote:Looks like we in deadlock. It is nearing time, when it will be stay for winter. Chinis might think, if you are staying for winters anyways, why not fire off few rounds...not to mention US elections providing the distraction.

Hope Chini positions and movements are been monitored.

If there is a fight, it will mostly start with Chini loitering drones and BM/rockets.

Those few rounds should be fired by us. Let us ruin their vacation. Loitering munitions will only be effective if chinese have customized them for high altitude operations. Ballistic missiles would be used for airbases and fuel/ammo depots etc. These will probably not be used against troops on the frontline and those entrenched on heights. MRLS, artillery and mortars would be used to maximum effect.Plus special forces

This is very, very important....the need to hit them, at least lightly (guerilla style) just before/early part of winter. Their stay during the winter should be anything but comfortable. Make sure their heating lines give out - mother nature will do the rest.

Kanson
BRF Oldie
Posts: 3049
Joined: 20 Oct 2006 21:00

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Kanson » 14 Oct 2020 04:17

Let there may be Vijayyibhawa!
Let our flag fly high amongst nations
Let there be pride & light to our country!

Davidrock
BRFite -Trainee
Posts: 78
Joined: 10 Mar 2019 12:07

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Davidrock » 14 Oct 2020 08:41

RajaRudra wrote:There could be some skirmishes, started by Communist goons(PLA)just before winter taken into consideration like US polls, Congress staged disturbances in India etc. Even if that does not happen and winter went peacefully, then China will sure try many things through out next summer.

So there is no need for playing good in winter. May be, we should use this winter to consolidate in many such unmarked heights just to keep the communist goons busy and arrive at some mutual negotiated settlement on winter. Again, that does not guarantee their good behavior in coming months though. But they will start understanding the COST factor.

++

kit
BRF Oldie
Posts: 4067
Joined: 13 Jul 2006 18:16

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kit » 14 Oct 2020 14:32

Just a fresh up for those who dont know or forgot !!

Aksai Chin is almost the size of Bhutan and little smaller than Switzerland. Most of it is in occupation of China, which captured the region during 1950s and consolidated its military grip over the area during the 1962 India-China war, rejecting all Indian attempts to settle border disputes peacefully.

Image

RajaRudra
BRFite
Posts: 136
Joined: 17 Sep 2019 14:13

Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 14 Oct 2020 21:11

Ladhakh is off the limelight, It seems to be a lull. We had seen many times in corporate offices. When a little troublesome guy start behaving very politely and silently doing his duty, its just a matter of time that he is going to put the papers.

This lull seems completely artificial and just a matter of time(or days) before we will all be in a rollercoaster. there seems to be a silence on the known peddlers in twitter (like ShookLaw), may be unofficial gag?



Return to “Military Issues & History Forum”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bart S, Kakarat, kumarn and 58 guests