India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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mihir.mehta
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby mihir.mehta » 15 Oct 2020 17:18

@pankajs - I understand all of that - all I am saying is - one cannot assume that they'll definitely attack. It isn't so simple.

I never said - we occupied that position to get back our areas. Infact - am not sure the military would want status quo ante restored if we have to vacate this ridge. The moment we leave - the Chinese will occupy it. So even if the chinese agree to go back(which i don't think they will) - we must stay put.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 15 Oct 2020 19:35

samirdiw wrote:
Image
……..

They are looking hundreds of years ahead while we are content to be safe enough to go back and squabble among ourselves.


We have to formulate our 100 year plan and go with it ruthlessly. I see strategic advantages; and big problems in the map. Need to resolve them without hesitation. And I can see the GOI plan too. Rest assured they are smart. :D

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 15 Oct 2020 21:01

What one needs is mann ki baat on subject of planning things for centuries and how Indians aren't doing it but enemies are.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 15 Oct 2020 22:00

darshan wrote:What one needs is mann ki baat on subject of planning things for centuries and how Indians aren't doing it but enemies are.

In a democracy parties in power change. 100 year plans cannot be open knowledge. But when power changes plans can go lost in transition. We need to figure out the solution to this problem. Maybe its done - see some recent structural changes in armed forces command.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 15 Oct 2020 22:08

There's no chankaya neeti involved here for plans to not be in open. If public doesn't believe in long term plans or even understand them then they won't be voting for you on long term goal equation. And it's not like India has 100 years. Probability is very low for India to have 100 years as BIF population catches up with non BIF one within few decades.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 15 Oct 2020 22:24

darshan wrote:There's no chankaya neeti involved here for plans to not be in open. If public doesn't believe in long term plans or even understand them then they won't be voting for you on long term goal equation. And it's not like India has 100 years. Probability is very low for India to have 100 years as BIF population catches up with non BIF one within few decades.


So will your opponents. There should be institutional memory not public one.

There is deep chankaya neeti here.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 15 Oct 2020 22:47

Sorry I don't see your point here. You seem to be confusing state secrets with stated goals which happen to hit the manifestos in election all the time. Media isn't doing its job so PM will have to do it through mann ki baat. Making public aware of what's at cost here and what's enemy up to is not helping enemy. Enemy already knows that. It's the Indian public who's not aware about what's to loose over a hundred years. Stating what's enemy upto and that India will have to respond to checkmate enemy over a hundred year plan isn't about giving away any state secrets. Let's not pretend that India wasn't one more MMS away from being destroyed. Failure to educate public will always leave door open for some MMS to come back. All parties in India clearly and openly need to discuss how they plan to take care of enemies over long term.

Added later:
For example, there were no state secrets lost when pakistani leaders said that we will eat grass but by any means will get weapons to bring down Hindu India over time. Enemy, in this case India, knew the stated goal but still failed to stop pakistanis.
Last edited by darshan on 15 Oct 2020 22:58, edited 1 time in total.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 15 Oct 2020 22:55

Can you show me the Chinese 100 year plan document in that case?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 15 Oct 2020 23:08

Many on this thread and other thread have pointed out CCP documents and their goals.

If by documents you're looking for how they exactly plan to accomplish their goals or anything close to it then you are already aware that one is not going to get them.

From the Indian context, as a voter I'm entitled to know what's enemy up to and how it's going to affect me over long term and that there's a stated goal to counter enemy's plans. Else, I can always vote on supply of onions.

Added later:
many had clearly stated about what chinese actions mean for India. However, nehru kept that away from Indian public. The results can be seen today.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 16 Oct 2020 00:14

darshan wrote:Many on this thread and other thread have pointed out CCP documents and their goals.

If by documents you're looking for how they exactly plan to accomplish their goals or anything close to it then you are already aware that one is not going to get them.

From the Indian context, as a voter I'm entitled to know what's enemy up to and how it's going to affect me over long term and that there's a stated goal to counter enemy's plans. Else, I can always vote on supply of onions.

Added later:
many had clearly stated about what chinese actions mean for India. However, nehru kept that away from Indian public. The results can be seen today.

That you have a great strategy doesn't absolve you of Onion management in a democracy. You will get good Onion management; not strategy.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 16 Oct 2020 00:38

My last one on it, a PM educating citizens about importance of something is not the same as giving away strategies. If PM educates Indian public about various border projects, their importance, their requirements and their long term impact then there's nothing that enemy is learning from it. For example, enemy already knows what's Atal tunnel is for. It's Indian public that needs to be educated about the long term impact of it and various other projects. All are announced and in open space.

Else, one can always go with the line that chinese aren't a threat in near term or long term like nehru did. Or that nothing grows there so no problem that we lost that territory.

I would expect a responsible PM to educate Indian public about all possible threats to the nation and PM's awareness to tackle them. If chinese actions threaten water security of India 100 years later, then that needs to be talked about. Normally media would educate public and increase awareness. However, in present India, it will have to be mann ki baat.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby kirpalbasra » 16 Oct 2020 02:06

just to chuck a spanner in to the works or so as the saying gos....THERE NEVER WAS A INDIA.. IT WAS A British creation ruled through a iron fist
is this where India is going if so its doomed. and i hope not.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 16 Oct 2020 03:13

Importance of Territorial Integrity need not be Man Ki Baat. It is a given. In fact all politicians use it. Look at Pappu. You want to be uniquely satisfied. Me too. That's why I am on this forum. Read and understand this topic part 1 and 2. You will be satisfied. Don't take Nehru's words out of context. For all his faults he laid the foundation of modern India - the one you see now with 10 new missiles in 2 weeks. His daughter laid out the template of how to win a modern war. and his great grand son on how to be a class clown.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Oct 2020 03:16

RaviB wrote:This does not mean they are even close to giving up. The CCP might just decide to give a final push to retrieve the situation as per their original plan. Or have a quick military strike followed by "voluntary restraint" and diplomacy to make sure their image is not damaged too much and they don't take on military damage. If there was any way of getting out of the situation without losing their dignity, they would take it. If they find their chances hopeless, they might just bluster and walk off as if they don't really care about India. Like a bully, "do you know who my father is? The next time you try something, I won't let you off so lightly".


I have been racking my brains to try to come how the Chini will achieve their objective, if they decide to fire the first shots. How would they convince us to retreat?

So they need to look good( not invade india proper, defensive action, call for ceasefire quickly), minimum loss of life & material( non-infantry action, standoff attacks) & reduce Indian response( tell the world they are not escalating, will retreat back, will respond more heavily if we respond)

To achieve this: Tell the world that rockets were fired from our position in Chulsul. PLA responded to the attacks (in form of MBRLs & Drones with video footage) in to Chulsul areas. PLA is only responding, so don't want to escalate. They are ready to move out, return captives, if India doesn't respond and move out as well.

This is like our Feb 27 dilemma. Paks attacked us, but showed as "defensive action". Since we didn't loose men on ground & had WC in captivity, we didn't respond. Chinis get the PR they want using drone footage. Chances are the offer of withdrawal will be taken by GoI..

This would be a PR action meant for their population. Irrespective of whatever action they taken, any military step would result in complete breakdown of India-China relation.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Oct 2020 03:17

Did we stay back in winter after the 62 war? or both sides decided to move out?

If both sides moved out, why is Srijap still with the PLA?

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 16 Oct 2020 03:22

On Feb 27- we had crossed the LOC first - regardless of saying it is a pre-emptive strike on terrorists. they had to respond. In this case - China moved first and we responded. China is in the same position we were in on Feb 27.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 16 Oct 2020 03:32

Chini idea would be to make it look like we fired first, they responded ( with all video feed and all). "Indians were completely routed and abandoned positions. We are now calling for ceasefire and complete withdrawal", yada yada..

Nobody will know who is in which position. But the PR job would be done..

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 16 Oct 2020 03:35

nam wrote:...Tell the world that rockets were fired from our position in Chulsul. PLA responded to the attacks (in form of MBRLs & Drones with video footage) in to Chulsul areas. PLA is only responding, so don't want to escalate. They are ready to move out, return captives, if India doesn't respond and move out as well.


Or overnight India can destroy Maldo and make it the new normal. They are only waiting for an excuse. Or something else out of blue that none of us can Imagine. The Chinese cannot predict India's response anymore and that is holding them back.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 16 Oct 2020 05:07

SSridhar wrote:
Haresh wrote:This beggers belief, nehru supplied the Hans with food?? Is this mentioned widely known? Unbelievable.

This is widely known.

In fact, there is another one, for which I do not have a reference right now, but have clearly read about it. That is, in 1950, China asked India permission to build a road from Kashgar to Lhasa.

I must have led a sheltered life, since such details were not known to me.

I just heard in general terms that Nehru was “fooled” into giving it all away due to royal treatment given by Chou en Lie.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 16 Oct 2020 05:10

Kanson wrote:Let there may be Vijayyibhawa!
Let our flag fly high amongst nations
Let there be pride & light to our country!

Well, Vijaya Dasami is coming. If is an auspicious day to go to war. Let’s see what Devi Upasaka Modi will do.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby KLNMurthy » 16 Oct 2020 05:22

srin wrote:...
I can't even guess what "pure" refers to. Some communist term perhaps ?


Well, it has been documented that Chinese troops engage in an excessive amount of what was known as “self-defilement” in olden days.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 16 Oct 2020 06:19

vnadendla wrote:
darshan wrote:There's no chankaya neeti involved here for plans to not be in open. If public doesn't believe in long term plans or even understand them then they won't be voting for you on long term goal equation. And it's not like India has 100 years. Probability is very low for India to have 100 years as BIF population catches up with non BIF one within few decades.


So will your opponents. There should be institutional memory not public one.

There is deep chankaya neeti here.


Public has to be involved that is the first step. Even the Chinese understand the importance of this and as a first step in that direction identified it as illegal. Over a period of time it will become a new normal and the Chinese public will get used to it and become part of the publics psyche. This is first public memory and over period of time will become institutional memory. They dont need to write a document and share with public how they will achieve it.

The current GOI may have some idea but definitely not the other parties. The USA was able to defeat the USSR only because it was a national objective and agreement of both parties. The agressiveness might be different but thats ok. This is the strength of democracies and utlizing it is important. If we dont then it will be very difficult to take on the single party determined and powerful countries. Since we think that current Govt is inclined in that direction then its all the more important that they strategize to influence the Congress and the Left to proclaim Tibet as illegally occupied. This is not easy to do but the only way/ This should never become a BJP vs China thing.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 16 Oct 2020 06:43

I dont think cong/bjp are on diff page here. left dosent matter.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 16 Oct 2020 06:50

samirdiw wrote:…..strategize to influence the Congress and the Left to proclaim Tibet as illegally occupied. This is not easy to do but the only way/ This should never become a BJP vs China thing.


When did Ladakh discussion became Tibet discussion. As you said the govt has a public discourse about Ladakh including Aksai Chin. Retaining Ladakh and overtime getting back Aksai Chin is probably our strategy. If there is no concurrence of both parties on it then that needs to be built. We should not fall into Chinese trap of Ladakh = Tibet.

Should we extend our claim to Tibet. No. Should we play games. That is a different discussion. Don't forget Nehru gave refuge to Dalai Lama.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby arshyam » 16 Oct 2020 07:33

kirpalbasra wrote: . . Deleted . .

Eh? What does this even mean?

Kirpalbasra: Don't entertain or express such ideas here. Take it as a warning. Admin.
Last edited by SSridhar on 16 Oct 2020 13:52, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: User request to delete his own quote.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby arshyam » 16 Oct 2020 07:51

vnadendla wrote:Don't take Nehru's words out of context. For all his faults he laid the foundation of modern India - the one you see now with 10 new missiles in 2 weeks. His daughter laid out the template of how to win a modern war. and his great grand son on how to be a class clown.

Anyone could have built a few dams and IITs - it does not take a genius to figure out that a massively impoverished and illiterate country needs these tools break out of the post-colonial shackles. I don't know why people keep parotting this "Nehru built modern India's foundations" as though he was the only one to realize its importance. Didn't other countries build their own space or nuclear programmes? This is similar to the railways argument British apologists used: the generous Brits brought railways to India via colonialism, so we should be perennially grateful to them.

A lot of what is attributed to Nehru is actually misplaced - the armed forces' re-equipment and massive upgrades in the '60s were a reaction to the '62 loss. Sort of a guilty conscience for undermining the Army for the previous 15 years, I suppose. The Air Force didn't even exist in Nehru's imagination, though he did imagine the Americans had an Air Force and promptly called for their help (it's another matter that they came and saw and declined direct help seeing that we already had an Air Force that was awaiting marching orders). The nuclear weapons programme was authorized by Shastri after the '64 test of China. Till then, we only had a nuclear power programme. The missile programme was authorized by Indira (no arguments against her strategic thinking), as was the SSBN/ATV programme.

Yes, Nehru did build these educational institutions and some big industries, but that doesn't absolve him of the far more damaging strategic blunders he committed (and kept committing). That he seemed erudite and aware of the implications of such actions, and that he didn't learn from his mistakes caused even more damage to the country in the long run - not only did we needlessly restrain ourselves in J&K and paid a huge price in terms of lives over the coming decades, we also selflessly gave up on our interests in Tibet (source of all waters in the northern plains) followed by actual territorial loss in Aksai Chin. All the while lobbying for free on behalf of the PRC. And the insult to injury? We supplied the staple rice to the PLA to enable these actions against ourselves. All courtesy Neverthoo. No amount of IITs can compensate for these foundational blunders.

Oh, and your quoted post shows another thing that was wrong with Nehruvism: what were his daughter and further offsprings doing in that list of "achievements"? Why do offsprings even have a role in a democracy? :)

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby LakshmanPST » 16 Oct 2020 07:59

vnadendla wrote:
samirdiw wrote:…..strategize to influence the Congress and the Left to proclaim Tibet as illegally occupied. This is not easy to do but the only way/ This should never become a BJP vs China thing.


When did Ladakh discussion became Tibet discussion. As you said the govt has a public discourse about Ladakh including Aksai Chin. Retaining Ladakh and overtime getting back Aksai Chin is probably our strategy. If there is no concurrence of both parties on it then that needs to be built. We should not fall into Chinese trap of Ladakh = Tibet.

Should we extend our claim to Tibet. No. Should we play games. That is a different discussion. Don't forget Nehru gave refuge to Dalai Lama.


He is talking about recognizing Tibet as 'illegally occupied nation', not talking about extending our claim on Tibet...
Nevertheless, there is nothing wrong in extending our claim to Tibet... Tibet is more Indian than Chinese...
And liberating Tibet from China, and we controlling the southern part of Tibet if possible, is the only way to secure our waters and borders...
Extending our claim may not be a gòod strategy at this point of time... But this should be our long term objective...
-
Nehru gave refuge to Dalai Lama after supplying rice to invading Chinese army 5 years earlier...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Prem Kumar » 16 Oct 2020 13:04

arshyam wrote:Anyone could have built a few dams and IITs


Even this myth has been busted. It was not Bandit Nehru but some other gentleman who was responsible for the setting up of IITs. There was a spate of articles on this a few months ago. Seems to be another myth-building attempt by the Congress over the last 7 decades.

Anyway OT

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby SSridhar » 16 Oct 2020 13:55

Warning: Please stop this political discussion. Elsewhere.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RaviB » 16 Oct 2020 15:51

nam wrote:I have been racking my brains to try to come how the Chini will achieve their objective, if they decide to fire the first shots. How would they convince us to retreat?

So they need to look good( not invade india proper, defensive action, call for ceasefire quickly), minimum loss of life & material( non-infantry action, standoff attacks) & reduce Indian response( tell the world they are not escalating, will retreat back, will respond more heavily if we respond)

...
Chinis get the PR they want using drone footage. Chances are the offer of withdrawal will be taken by GoI..

This would not be a PR action meant for their population. Irrespective of whatever action they taken, any military step would result in complete breakdown of India-China relation.


I have mentioned this earlier, the two biggest enemies / threats for the CCP are USA and the Chinese People. They spend an equal amount of money to counter both these enemies. To the extent they care about domestic opinion, they will just quickly manage the narrative using their censors, shills and the 50 cent army. If they retreat, their domestic narrative will probably be some crap about self-restraint and high principles and offering the hand of friendship to an unreasonable India (till the time they think they have the military advantage, new government, whatever).

But generally the CCP doesn't give a flying duck about the Average Zhou, and the Average Zhou would any day chose a Peking duck over some random place on some random border.

Their audience is the international community. That's who the PR crap and diplomatic theater will be for. All their wars since and including 1962 have been called "self-defense counter-attack". The talks are there so they can play the sincere aggrieved party when necessary. They will definitely claim India attacked first whenever they start something. If it's difficult to fake, then they'll use the SFF capture as the pretext. Then once they've done enough to be able to retreat with dignity, it will become "offering the hand of friendship for ensuring win-win cooperation and mutual accommodation among relevant parties". Translated: "tremble and obey; I win, you lose; you accommodate backwards, I accommodate forwards; don't bring in support of the USA".

if they decide to fire the first shots. How would they convince us to retreat?


They will retreat first to demonstrate their sincerity while urging India to retreat as well, something like "disengagement with Chinese characteristics". They will expect India to give it a rest once they go back because democracies are indecisive and need public support for war. Once they withdraw, there will no justification for India to attack and the public won't support it. And they would have demonstrated to the international community what happens when anyone dares to stand up to Sugarland.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nandakumar » 16 Oct 2020 17:17

RaviB
A question for you. Whatever attack that they would not invite a commensurate response from India. If they launch a missile attack on say one of the Brigade Headquarters in the Ladakh region and destroy it completely and killing soldiers in the process and declare ceasefire and start withdrawing from say, Galwan Valley or from the finger areas in Pangongso lake. Would that mean Indian army will start retreating from some of the heights that they occupied in Aug29/30? I find that difficult to believe especially after India's response in the wake of Uri and Pulwama attacks by non-state actors of Pakistan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RajaRudra » 16 Oct 2020 17:27

nandakumar wrote:RaviB
A question for you. Whatever attack that they would not invite a commensurate response from India. If they launch a missile attack on say one of the Brigade Headquarters in the Ladakh region and destroy it completely and killing soldiers in the process and declare ceasefire and start withdrawing from say, Galwan Valley or from the finger areas in Pangongso lake. Would that mean Indian army will start retreating from some of the heights that they occupied in Aug29/30? I find that difficult to believe especially after India's response in the wake of Uri and Pulwama attacks by non-state actors of Pakistan.


Don't even need to care what the chinese will be thinking. In the given scenario, forget about the border regions, even the Beijing will be burning and turning into ash. As for as border regions, war will not be stopped until a portion of Tibet be made free from Han's and the entire Ladak and manasarover are in our full control.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 16 Oct 2020 18:32

Some reports indicate discussions are along the lines of withdrawing tanks,AVs,etc. first. If this happens it will only benefit the PLA as out T-90/72s outgun the PLA's T-15 light tank which only has a 105mm gun as opposed to the 125mm guns on our T-series MBTs which have far superior armour protection too. The discussions should focus upon withdrawal of PLA ground forces,AVs , SAMs,etc. last. ThePLA know that their tanks will be mauled by IA MBTs in a tank battle and want to even the odds,where it will be far easier for them to induct them again
than the IA. We cannot lose the initiative we've obtained by falling into the PRC's trap.Our peacenik MEA footmen must play second fiddle to the IA and the armed forces who are the ones defending our territory,not pen-pushing babus and cocktail circuit charlies of the MEA.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby pankajs » 16 Oct 2020 19:03

vnadendla wrote:
nam wrote:...Tell the world that rockets were fired from our position in Chulsul. PLA responded to the attacks (in form of MBRLs & Drones with video footage) in to Chulsul areas. PLA is only responding, so don't want to escalate. They are ready to move out, return captives, if India doesn't respond and move out as well.

Or overnight India can destroy Maldo and make it the new normal. They are only waiting for an excuse. Or something else out of blue that none of us can Imagine. The Chinese cannot predict India's response anymore and that is holding them back.

That is the key .. and while it may not be holding back the Chinese they will certainly have to cross-check their plans multiple times and at multiple levels after what India did the last 3 times we went head to head .. Doklam, Galwan & Spanggur/Chushul area. Nothing that the Chinese had bargained for.

Chinese might still decide to risk is again but now they know the risk of an unforeseen response and out of script play from the Indians.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby samirdiw » 16 Oct 2020 19:26

nam wrote:I have been racking my brains to try to come how the Chini will achieve their objective, if they decide to fire the first shots. How would they convince us to retreat?


It is unlikely that they will try to repeat '62. They know we will make some changes to that (e.g. involve the IAF) plus a different political party. They will try to replicate a massive US type shock and awe on the troops in the mountains and the fuel/supply/ammo using their Airforce Force/Rocket Force followed by Artillary and try to kick us off the mountains. It will be then for us to recover and push them back. If they are successful (IF) there wont be any withdrawals from their side as they have already claimed Ladakh as illegal territory and now have the supply lines that '62 didnt have. They choose PR in '62 as they couldnt physically hold on to the land they captured. if they achieve this it will be a massive attack on the Indian psyche and they dont need any PR. We cant fight the last war.It is our objective to predict what is the worst they can do and counter that accordingly.

This is why it is so important for us to get strategic depth on the Tibetian plains to overcome inital setbacks. Let our maps be decided by what is strategically important for us on the ground to secure Bharat and not what the British decided(to a large extent). We may not be able to do it now but that should be our 10-15 yr goal.


Have we thought about building tunnels in the mountains a la Al Qaida and guerilla style to buy time? If US had it difficult surely the Chinese will have too. This supported by traditional battle plans. This can be a counter to their potential shock and awe.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RaviB » 16 Oct 2020 19:41

nandakumar wrote:RaviB
A question for you. Whatever attack that they would not invite a commensurate response from India. If they launch a missile attack on say one of the Brigade Headquarters in the Ladakh region and destroy it completely and killing soldiers in the process and declare ceasefire and start withdrawing from say, Galwan Valley or from the finger areas in Pangongso lake. Would that mean Indian army will start retreating from some of the heights that they occupied in Aug29/30? I find that difficult to believe especially after India's response in the wake of Uri and Pulwama attacks by non-state actors of Pakistan.


Somebody mentioned that one thing that might be holding them back is that they are becoming to realise that Indian reactions are nothing like what they expected.

Yet, something that might be very clear to us, is a complete blind spot for the Chinese. For example, how they get enraged about the reports in Indian media and ask the Indian government to rein them in. They just don't get that we're nothing like China and the government can't tell any channel to shut up or calm down. Similar case for democracy. They've been talking about how Modi is trying to divert attention by standing up to China because that's what democratic leaders do, they don't get that the elections are 4 years away and that makes no sense and that voters are not stupid. Or their entire idea about the feudal structure of IA. It's all crap, but these are their blind spots and their actions are from the very beginning based on miscalculations.

One thing they also believe is that democracies are vulnerable to be exploited by playing off one party against the other, like in the USA. Or getting RaGa to be friendly to China and change Indian public opinion. I mean we have our own blind spots too, like talking of marching to Lhasa or regime change in the CCP.

That's not how it would happen but that's how the Chinese believe it would happen.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vnadendla » 16 Oct 2020 20:27

RaviB wrote:
Somebody mentioned that one thing that might be holding them back is that they are becoming to realize that Indian reactions are nothing like what they expected.....

Yet, something that might be very clear to us, is a complete blind spot for the Chinese. For example, how they get enraged about the reports in Indian media and ask the Indian government to rein them in...……...

You are thinking too strategic. I was more referring to the next action. Suppose they did something. Do we
    retaliate in Moldo
    Move in more heights at xyz (no specifics)
    Move and occupy somewhere else (no specifics) along border

You have to be able to reasonably predict response and beef your troops before you do anything. Last few times they couldn't.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 16 Oct 2020 22:44

RaviB wrote:Yet, something that might be very clear to us, is a complete blind spot for the Chinese. For example, how they get enraged about the reports in Indian media and ask the Indian government to rein them in. They just don't get that we're nothing like China and the government can't tell any channel to shut up or calm down. Similar case for democracy. They've been talking about how Modi is trying to divert attention by standing up to China because that's what democratic leaders do, they don't get that the elections are 4 years away and that makes no sense and that voters are not stupid. Or their entire idea about the feudal structure of IA. It's all crap, but these are their blind spots and their actions are from the very beginning based on miscalculations.

Either chinese don't get it or that's how things used to be in India for them but now they aren't. May be chinese MoUs controlled things for decades and now chinese haven't come to grasp of failures of MoUs. These MoUs could have been across the political scene and all coming to halt from 2014 and onwards.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby darshan » 17 Oct 2020 01:16

India buying winter clothing from US, Europe for troops in Ladakh
https://www.wionews.com/india-news/indi ... akh-335898
...
The winter clothing has been purchased under the Logistics Exchange Memorandum Agreement (LEMOA) between India and the US. The agreement facilitates logistical support, supplies and services between the armed forces of the two countries, and includes clothing, food, lubricants, spare parts, medical services, among other essentials.
....

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 17 Oct 2020 01:32

Now we cannot say, we didn't know that Chinis were attacking us in 2020.. :rotfl:

A news report from wait for it 2013..



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