India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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sanjaykumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby sanjaykumar » 15 Feb 2021 06:36

And of course the tables are turned at the '11'th hour


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5L7bsrm ... EPLVintage

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby vimal » 15 Feb 2021 07:41

Vishnu wrote:
abhishekm wrote:Sorry for the random message. I ran into NDTV's Vishnu Som at Delhi Airport yesterday :lol:


Also ... I wasn't at the airport yesterday so I guess you must have been speaking to my ghost. :roll:

:rotfl: :rotfl: What a world. Now Vishnu has to show a certificate to prove that he is indeed Vishnu.

ramana
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2021 08:06

abhishekm

You were talking to an imposter for Vishnu posts under his own name.

Ramana

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 15 Feb 2021 08:57

It is at this point that my ears prick up. A mutual withdrawal indeed. Get ready to be stabbed in the back in the spring/summer, and this time it will be from both sides. Better be on high alert.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 15 Feb 2021 09:46

There is lot of verification and Indian forces withdraw to less distance so they can react quickly.

However you are right.

In July 1962 the PLA withdrew with great fanfare and headlines only to attack in force in October and November 1962.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Punjabi » 15 Feb 2021 09:52

ramana wrote:There is lot of verification and Indian forces withdraw to less distance so they can react quickly.

However you are right.

In July 1962 the PLA withdrew with great fanfare and headlines only to attack in force in October and November 1962.


While fair to say we must stay alert and keep an eagle eye...this time XinPeePooes know how they got thrashed by our Boys...they'll keep poking to find holes in our armor but we'll drill a bigger one into their ...where sun never shines...

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Shanmukh » 15 Feb 2021 17:48

Gen Ved Malik says this:

2. Temp freeze on patrolling between Finger 4 & 8 essential to avoid clashes. Defence structures built after Apr 2020 to be removed. Own troops located very close (in Chushul) when Kailash Range is vacated.

https://twitter.com/Vedmalik1/status/13 ... 4298133508

So, it looks like we are withdrawing from the Kailash range too, and Chellaney was right. This was our main bargaining point, I thought? Why will the Chinese talk about Depsang, Gogra, Galwan, etc, now? What is our bargaining chip?

Wondering if Rudradev-acharya was right and India decided to go for the best possible agreement under the circumstances, after the telephone call with Biden. Wonder if he said there will be no help of any kind, probably even sanctions if we don't make a deal with the Chinese .....

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby rohiths » 15 Feb 2021 20:29

There may be anticipation for hostile action from western countries regarding human rights fleedom etc etc and hence a temporary truce with China.
I don't think there would have been any withdrawal if trump was president

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2021 11:05

Where does the RM or MoD statement talk about Kailash range?
On the other hand they both talk about Gogra, Hotsprings and Depsang in that order. Galwan also not mentioned.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2021 11:05

rohiths wrote:There may be anticipation for hostile action from western countries regarding human rights fleedom etc etc and hence a temporary truce with China.
I don't think there would have been any withdrawal if trump was president


It's not germane to the current standoff.

XJP realised every which way would incur losses and decided to disengage.

People are really calculated.
Only emotional are our posters who pass of their opinions or fears as facts.
One can have opinions but one can't have own facts.
I grant one can arrange the facts to make own narrative aka dot connecting, but realize such exercises will be futile if they dont match reality.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby YashG » 16 Feb 2021 12:01

I think it is not right to generalize all of Chellaney's analysis as bunkum. Its like shooting the messenger. Chellaney has been way more critical of our handling of China pre-2014. So I dont think he has a bias. Ofcourse that doesn't mean he cant be wrong. We should vigorously discuss, reject, falsify or accept what he says. Even a broken clock is right once in a day.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby YashG » 16 Feb 2021 12:13

rohiths wrote:There may be anticipation for hostile action from western countries regarding human rights fleedom etc etc and hence a temporary truce with China.
I don't think there would have been any withdrawal if trump was president


Hostile action on human rights stuff from Western countries - If it was really a thing as it looks like, we would have seen them taking action on uighurs' by now. But no! EU is making new economic pacts with China. Truth is human rights become important only when your economy is not doing right. If India was still growing by 8%+, these human rights violation wouldn't have mattered.

Also human rights violations become less difficult to defend, when you dont have the intellectual class to defend you. Sadly, we think the intellectual class are all leftists but that is not so - a lot of intellectuals are jingos out there - some are so celebrated for their knowledge on this forum too. Somehow, we need a battery of intellectuals to defend us on the battle of public perception as well. Public perception matters, if you've to attract more FDI in a democracy like India and kick-start our economy engine. We cant alienate all vocal, intellectual voices who can move the public perception meter in our favor.

Bottomline: its not the humanrights, its the economy!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby RKumar » 16 Feb 2021 15:35

Napak should be given tight thapaads to plan unsuccessful Jammu IDE, they need to keep in mind our red lines.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 16 Feb 2021 16:53

Whilst it is pleasing to note that PLA have withdrawn to the pre-Apr 2020 positions and have reduced the likelihood of clashes. This is just one phase... The battle against the PRC continues. GOI have lot of work still to do.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nachiket » 16 Feb 2021 19:09

Hope the IA has a reliable mechanism for surveilling the finger 4-8 area in the absence of patrolling. The PLA will try to surreptitiously come back sooner or later. Just the nature of the beast.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby manjgu » 16 Feb 2021 20:11

i am wondering will the road track between f4 ..f8 also been demolished. or its pre Apr 2020? road track is of 1999 vintage. IA may have a reliable mechanism for keeping an eye on 4-8 area but its of no use really. they have a motorable track ..so it takes just 10 minutes to reach 4 from 8. what is important : whats the indian response in such a event? only they cant cross the bend at f4 on a motorable vehicle.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Ashokk » 16 Feb 2021 20:29

LAC disengagement: Pictures, videos show India, China pulling back troops
NEW DELHI: After a standoff lasting almost ten months, India and China have finally started disengaging their troops and tanks from the banks of Pangong Lake in Eastern Ladakh.
In images and videos released by the Indian Army, Chinese troops can be seen removing several bunkers, temporary posts and other structures in the northern bank areas while gradually thinning down their troops in the region.

Image
Image
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Philip » 16 Feb 2021 20:53

I thought that the last disengagement act from our side would be the K- heights,mentioned in some press report. I doubt that we would give away our prize position for merely initial withdrawals.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2021 22:53

Now that XJP is disengaging or retreating what were the aims?

The first aim was to torpedo the Indo-Pacific collaboration between India and Japan announced in 2016 summit.

Second was to damage brand NaMo just as Brand Nehru was destroyed in 1962.
Third was to hope for Congress revival to restore the good old days of salami nibbling and trade surplus. Since 2008 to 2020 till Galwan, China accumulated $550B surplus. This is equal to the Foreign Exchange reserves of India!

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2021 22:57

nachiket wrote:Hope the IA has a reliable mechanism for surveilling the finger 4-8 area in the absence of patrolling. The PLA will try to surreptitiously come back sooner or later. Just the nature of the beast.

It's all Govt of India not just IA.

The verification measures are equal to CFE Treaty in Europe.
All agreed to in 9 military to military meetings.

Satellites, drones, overflights, distances based on roads infrastructure.
Farther for PLA and nearer for India.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2021 22:57

Philip wrote:I thought that the last disengagement act from our side would be the K- heights,mentioned in some press report. I doubt that we would give away our prize position for merely initial withdrawals.

If ever that happens..yes heights would be last.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Kanson » 16 Feb 2021 23:12

Reasoning is: this agression started as India started its new role in WHO last year and China wanted to use this agression to press upon India on WHO findings. The agression ended or melowed once the WHO Corona report came out is not adversarial to china.

In my view, it has nothng to do with other intl initiatives or relationships .

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 16 Feb 2021 23:18

You are welcome to your opinion.
It's not based on facts like cold weather training of PLA in Canada in 2018. And procuring clothing fit for -40 degree Centigrade.
All this happened since the summit.
China is not agile military that can turn on a paisa coin and state Galwan.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ArjunPandit » 17 Feb 2021 00:36

i would also like to point out the tactical effects of it.

Tactical effects as in would the retreating PLA soldier on ground would be thinking
1. Why did we go there in the first place. Does winning this land mean anything to us or to CPC. Does not have any utility like oil or our strategic freedom? What did we accomplish by going there far from the mainland and comforts? Why are we not fighting the US or some first world nation as our military is the mightiest (in case of a propaganda fed soldier over years)
2. these poorly equipped indians and their dilapidated military as we knew on our forums or hear from elders is not going back or getting scared by the size of our economy or our fancy toys.
3. Some of our boys died they didnt receive any recognition. Indians who died and killed us in large no. got widespread respect from their their people. Why dont we get that?
4. Why are we coming back. What happened?
5. Did the CPC/PLA/Govt tell us everything?
Soldiers should have lot of time in their lonely nights and if not discuss then at least would think. I agree some soliders would be no different from bots, but some people would be.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cyrano » 17 Feb 2021 01:15

My opinion:

CCP miscalculated on NaMo Govt, PLA misunderestimated IA and got stalemated, nutfreezed. The cost of continuing the standoff in terms of men, equipment, money and morale was becoming untenable. Escalating into a 2 front war by pulling in Pakis was not realisable either. Pak Army got scared and refused to get annihilated. They must have told Chinis look at how we bled India for decades, low cost, high nuisance. India cant go to war for that, cant even do a Balakot on Wuhan, too far away. Pakis shared playbook, proposed to be the facilitator, use their contacts etc., for a commission of course. After pimping themselves to US which has dumped then, why not do the same for to China ?

Xitler doesn't want this to become a bigger failure than it already is, and hurt his legacy.

CCP realised non-military ways can also help to contain India's rise, with far less risks, by using Pakis to increase covert support to Congi/Left/BIF/Khalistanis, Rohingyas etc. Plus increase efforts to turn neighbours against India, dump goods in India or against India, cyber attacks, pump drugs etc etc. until there is a change of Govt in 3 years and if Modi is not the PM, they can try the military option again.

The war has just changed the theatre from outside-in to inside-out, from using soldiers to using traitors, real attacks to sneak and virtual attacks.

The title of this thread has taken a whole new meaning. But we will prevail by using sama, dana, bheda, dandopayaha. And more.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Vivek K » 17 Feb 2021 01:36

Remember that two can play at a game. Eastern Turkmenistan (Or Xinjiang as the Han call it) and Tibet can be used in the same vein. Hong Kong is another bomb waiting to erupt. Alliances with Vietnam and others and the Quad can be pin pricks too. So better (for Chinese) to play straight with us and let Pukis stew in their coming fate.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Cain Marko » 17 Feb 2021 02:11

The shift to inward-out from outward-in is a good thing in some ways. Discloses the true colors and positions of many who otherwise could have stayed hidden in the woodwork.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Jay » 17 Feb 2021 02:51

https://i.redd.it/ystw8nx9auh61.jpg

Apparently this is the Pic from when we were in a face off and flag meetings were going on.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby V_Raman » 17 Feb 2021 03:18

We have the biggest inward-out card on China - Tibet. I dont think China can/will play that game with India. Pak is too weak. Others pearls are too small. China border/military threat, IMO is neutralized for the next decade atleast if no action by end of 2022.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby nam » 17 Feb 2021 05:04

Chinis must be getting something in return for such a public humiliation.

I feel we might see easing of the app ban and other sanctions. Chinis never retaliated on our app ban.

They were quite hopeful of a resolution.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby NRao » 17 Feb 2021 05:32

nam wrote:Chinis must be getting something in return for such a public humiliation.

I feel we might see easing of the app ban and other sanctions. Chinis never retaliated on our app ban.

They were quite hopeful of a resolution.


IIRC, Lt. Gen Panag(?) did mention that the same deal was reached in Nov, but Indian media blew their trumpets a bit too much for China. So, per that source this time around China announced the deal *first* and he went on to state perhaps GoI told Indian media to knock it off.

Check out a recent vid from the Print, with Lt. Gen Hooda.

For what it is worth

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby Suraj » 17 Feb 2021 05:41

nam wrote:Chinis must be getting something in return for such a public humiliation.

I feel we might see easing of the app ban and other sanctions. Chinis never retaliated on our app ban.

They were quite hopeful of a resolution.

The app ban was made permanent before the news from the border broke. In fact, it was reported that PMO explicitly asked MEITY to ensure a permanent ban of Chinese apps prior to negotiations.
India to impose permanent ban on TikTok, 58 other Chinese apps

Added: saw that Kakkaji already posted the news about PMO in the previous page.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby yensoy » 17 Feb 2021 06:45

It may be ok to accept Chinese investments in old tech areas - the older the better - but we should absolutely keep them out of IT sectors including computer/phone hardware, networking gear, software and applications.

nam wrote:I feel we might see easing of the app ban and other sanctions. Chinis never retaliated on our app ban.


Huh, how could they? Pretty much everything is blocked in China.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby ramana » 17 Feb 2021 06:55

Picturec2 and 4 are stone sangars. Not the much vaunted luxury accommodations touted by Indian press and some veterans.
On direct hit from 155mm would blow them apart.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby D.Mahesh » 17 Feb 2021 08:19

ramana wrote:
rohiths wrote:There may....
I don't think there would have been..


Only emotional are our posters who pass of their opinions or fears as facts.
One can have opinions but one can't have own facts.
I grant one can arrange the facts to make own narrative aka dot connecting, but realize such exercises will be futile if they dont match reality.


There was a time when likes of Ravi Rakhiye feared to tread here, lest they get their heads chewed off. Now the posters are simply DDM themselves. Pathetic

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby D.Mahesh » 17 Feb 2021 08:22

ramana wrote:Picturec2 and 4 are stone sangars. Not the much vaunted luxury accommodations touted by Indian press and some veterans.
On direct hit from 155mm would blow them apart.


Shabby, poorly trained & officered & equipped.
For Chicoms, this is way worse than Cuban crisis was for CCCP & Krushchev. But if Eleven owns up, his land will implode.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby mody » 17 Feb 2021 15:58

The Chinese now showing off the speed of moving their heavy equipment. 100 Tanks taken back within 8 hours.

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby YashG » 17 Feb 2021 16:57

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-usa- ... AH0AC?il=0

About Human rights: Biden says there will be repercussions for China. Like what?! Such Vagueness.

While talking about Indo-Pacific, Chinese aggression towards Taiwan was mentioned. Not India? hmmmmmmmmm! Food for Thought.


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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Postby shyamd » 17 Feb 2021 17:16

Written in Nov 2020
shyamd wrote:---------------------------------------
The other interesting thing is GOI, Paris and Aussies are creating a new framework for Indian Ocean separate to the Quad (US/Aus/Ind/Jap) grouping. All three have agreed to join hands. Paris is promising ISR, Rafale, Submarines + cash support. Aussies have bought french subs. Shringla visit to capital said GOI is worried Gwadar and Hambantota can quickly be converted into a naval facility in the future.


Link
While India and France discussed China and its role in the Indo-Pacific and Indian Ocean, Paris has invited Indian Navy to participate in European Maritime Awareness in the Straits of Hormuz (EMSOH) as well as use facilities at the French base in Djibouti on the Horn of Africa. On China, the two sides have decided to build maritime capabilities to ensure that international maritime law is followed in both Indo-Pacific and Indian Ocean through joint surveillance and sharing of intelligence. France’s Chief Military Advisor also accompanied envoy Bonne. France has also offered India to join in trilateral naval exercises with UAE, Singapore, Malaysia, Indonesia and Australia.


---------------------------------
GOI is conducting strategic communications that If there is no forward movement on withdrawal once the snow melts there will be escalation.

- A5 brandished at full operational mode in multiple locations (Vajpayee model)
- Movement of troops forward - Army plans to keep 2 strike corps for mountains facing China amid Ladakh crisis
- Guided artillery and other equipment
- Friendly countries have promised to provide additional transport and A2A refuelling as well as logistic equipment (example given in above article of UAE/France there are others too in the region)
- GOI greenlight will be given at very short notice to undertake an offensive operation.
And Much more.

COAS visit to forward areas was to communicate this directly with key individuals in IA.

Notice to effect will be very short but will but within boundaries of international law.

-----------
Adding to the above about Indo-France

- French joining exercises to take place in Bay of Bengal also with the Quad (US/Jap/Aus/IN)
- French are proposing amphibious drills - these will be conducted at the joint level (Air, Navy, Land)
- French bases in Polynesia and Caledonia are currently being upgraded
- French/Jap/GOI held a nat sec workshop last month
- GIGN training with NSG


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