India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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williams
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by williams »

VKumar wrote:We should stop imports from China.
No, we should play their game. Probe areas of weakness and occupy them. Act as though it is a local incident.
SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Border tension after Indian, Chinese soldiers clash at Tawang - Manu Pubby, ET
Sources said that the clash did not involve firearms but clubs and sticks were used, resulting in injuries. The clash took place after close to 350 Chinese soldiers approached the contested border to target an Indian Army post and were physically stopped from crossing.

Sources said that the intruding troops were identified well in advance, enabling Indian soldiers to confront them at the border. They added that an adequate number of troops were mobilised by the Indian side to prevent an intrusion and targeting of the post.
SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

williams wrote:
VKumar wrote:We should stop imports from China.
No, we should play their game. Probe areas of weakness and occupy them. Act as though it is a local incident.
Speaking on 20th September 2022 at the India Defence Conclave, the Chief of the Indian Army, Gen. Manoj Pandey said the lessons learnt from the over 28-month military face-off with China in eastern Ladakh included the need to maintain “high levels of operational preparedness at all times”, further enhance infrastructure development along the northern borders, especially in Arunachal Pradesh, and induct “niche or disruptive” technologies in a major way. “We also need to develop our ‘grey zone’ capabilities,”, he said.
yensoy
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by yensoy »

It is clear that "active defence" or "offensive defence" is the only kind of defence our neighbours understand. Two can play the game.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Union defence minister Rajnath Singh is holding a high-level meeting in New Delhi over the clash. According to reports, external affairs minister S Jaishankar, Chief of Defence Staff (CDS) Anil Chauhan, all three service chiefs are present at the meeting. - ToI
Prem Kumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

More details

https://theprint.in/defence/arunachal-c ... k/1262407/

Not just sticks, but also barbed wire clubs, tasers etc. Looks like our surveillance & rapid mobility took them by surprise. Within 30 min, we had outnumbered them and gave a bloody nose. Kudos!

We cannot win this game by being on the defensive. It might work against Pakistan but will economically ruin us against China. We cannot be in a state of permanent, high-stress readiness on 2 fronts 24x7. The Chinese will not be under the same stress because they know that we will never be the aggressor. So, they have the luxury of rest, followed by action at a time & place of their choosing

Tit-for-tat (take permanent control of parcels of land) & unpredictable aggression from our side is key. Are we ready for this mindset change?
Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

We should disband this sticks and stones agreement, there are many options and I am sure our Army knows much more than us Key board warriors.

But for some reason GOI is afraid to escalate, we do not have the full picture. But I suggest we do some aggressive action to put an end to this Nautanki.
Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

As per Vishnu Som on Twitter , IAF had to scramble to keep the Plaaf out of Arunachal

https://twitter.com/VishnuNDTV/status/1 ... 3534375941

now on times of India

https://timesofindia.indiatimes.com/ind ... 20Pradesh.
RajaRudra
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by RajaRudra »

This type of incidents - Military leadership or political leadership (RM) - Should release a press release with emphasize on ready for taking any threat.
This unquoted sources releasing the details and video is going to hurt us.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

I think Defense Minister Rajnath singh is going to give a statement soon
chetak
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

Aditya_V wrote:We should disband this sticks and stones agreement, there are many options and I am sure our Army knows much more than us Key board warriors.

But for some reason GOI is afraid to escalate, we do not have the full picture. But I suggest we do some aggressive action to put an end to this Nautanki.
per some reports, the hans also carry tasers, so the sticks and stones options are seeing some upgrades which are bound to be countered
SSridhar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Prem Kumar wrote:We cannot win this game by being on the defensive. It might work against Pakistan but will economically ruin us against China. We cannot be in a state of permanent, high-stress readiness on 2 fronts 24x7. The Chinese will not be under the same stress because they know that we will never be the aggressor. So, they have the luxury of rest, followed by action at a time & place of their choosing
The Chinese believe that we will kowtow before them asking for settlement by keeping the stakes perpetually high for us. That's why we want to develop access roads and other infrastructure so that we will level the playing field as far as possible. Army chief is talking of similar ‘grey zone’ tactics. The added reason for Galwan, Pangong Tso, Yangtse are, apart from keeping us on tenterhooks, is to ensure that we do not play any part in any anti-China grouping. They constantly praise our ‘strategic autonomy’ just so that we do not join any group against them.

Particularly with Arunachal, the Dalai Lama's succession issue looms large especially as he advances in age. I attended a day-long Tibetan program yesterday by coincidence and the succession issue is a big one especially as there is a section of the people who do not agree with the 'Middle Way' approach of His Holiness even though they are all extremely reverential to him otherwise. PRC will try to use every crack and crevasse to impose its candidate. Tawang is extremely important for its scheme of things.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

Indian Army prevented Chinese attempts to change status in Arunachal's Yangtse area: Rajnath in LS - TNIE
The Indian Army bravely prevented the Chinese PLA's attempts to unilaterally change the status in the Yangtse area of Arunachal Pradesh's Tawang sector on December 9 and confronted it with firmness, Defence Minister Rajnath Singh said on Tuesday.

In a statement in Lok Sabha, Singh said no Indian soldiers has died, nor has anyone been seriously injured in the faceoff.

"The Indian Army bravely prevented the PLA from encroaching on our territory and forced them to withdraw to their posts. Some soldiers from both sides were injured in the skirmish," the defence minister said.

"I would like to assure this House that our forces are fully committed to safeguard our territorial integrity, and are always ready to prevent any attempt against it," he said.

The Chinese side was asked to refrain from such actions and maintain peace and tranquillity along the border.

The issue has also been taken up with the Chinese side through diplomatic channels, Singh said.

"I am confident that this entire House will stand united in supporting our soldiers in their brave effort," he said.
Prem Kumar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

Thanks SSridhar for the perspective.

What has worked well (compared to us being taken by surprise in 2020):

1) Early detection, which means better UAV and other forms of surveillance
2) Rapid mobilization, which means better roads, vehicles & the 2-layer strategy of forward teams at the LAC with backup troops in the rear
3) Better weapons to match what the Chinese brought to the table

As always, the Kshatriyata of our jawans & the free hand given to them by the political establishment has played a big role

What still leaves to be desired:

1) Our mindset is still very reactive and we don't impose a cost on China for their misadventure
2) The Chandigarh Lobby is still preventing us from having serious matching capability (or even localized overmatch) vis-a-vis China even though we have the money for it. We still have people who insist on the unobtanium & under-arming the nation by playing truant. Its almost as if they believe that a war won't happen. This under-preparedness impacts #1 above
chetak
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

Just Remember that Chinese agents are not across the border only.


Image
chetak
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by chetak »

Defence Minister Rajnath Singh’s statement on the Tawang situation.


Image
Cyrano
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

"No fatalities or serious casualties on our side"
Iyersan
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Iyersan »

https://twitter.com/hukum2082/status/16 ... 3507445762

1. Mago marks the southern entrance of the valley and Chuna the northern end of it bordering the LAC.Steep mountainous terrain which needs hours of trekking to reach posts #TawangClash.
2. Peak XXX sits to the west of this area and has commanding view of the ridges and tracks across the LAC deep into Cona County. The PLA sent in roughly 300 troops with melee weapons with a clear intention to kill/miam the IA troops holding the area.
3. Closely placed echelons on the lower ridges and the river valley were quickly able to reinforce the 50 troops firmly facing the PLA onslaught and reinforcements poured in from multiple directions immediately after being radioed.
4. What started with abuses and stone pelting gradually progressed to fisticuffs and then fierce hand to hand combat where the PLA troops were overpowered and in some cases their weapons were used against them.
5. This free for all went on until the PLA found itself losing ground with many of their troops overpowered and battered while IA troops kept pouring in with their own melee weapons. Things went south from there and the PLA troops started falling back.
6. The IA troops were in no mood to relent and went after the retreating PLA troops who were running for their lives after having borne the burnt of the counter-attack. Gunshots were heard from the PLA's rear as they attempted to deter further assault.
7. The area of the faceoff has been reinforced and the units in the vicinity are on a high state of alert. All in all a very comprehensive drubbing for the PLA with a dozen plus of their troops dead or extremely critical (skulls opened/crushed).
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SRajesh »

^^^Could I just ask, are these events captured on Video at all??
I am what stops us from having few Kaboothar type drones to capture the melee and the hasty retreat.
I presume we have surveillance set up already as reinforcements poured in from all directions to beat the crap out of 'Little Pincelings' :D
Just for future talks with the kole Klamandlra
RajaRudra
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by RajaRudra »

We must be having videos of it for sure. Releasing / non releasing the same is up to political leadership.

The videos in circulation of 9th dec tawang incident may well not be real. Normally , there will be a gang asking for "show us the evidence" is now silent.. Situation may still be evolving and IA is tackling it dynamically.

Northern sector is different. Tawang is too close for Chinese for dalai lama reason. We may have to strengthen the last post strength. China is going to put the entire blame of India attacked the post and captured it. (Drama of recapturing).

Our troops stopped PLA troops from transgression. Transgressions means the "area" is not in full control of either side. Both are doing patrols once in a while.

News report also have information about, PLA trying to dislodge a IA post. Post means at least to my knowledge is a permanent presence area.
Two possibilities could be
1) Our post there is a new and PLA irked by continuous presence of our presence there.
2) Unmanned IA post was there all along; our troops may do duty there once in a while. PLA tried to interdict the same with a show of strength and further cement their place there. and we successfully made them retreat.
3) This area could well be one such area where both India and China do the patrolling (in different days), and heightened field intelligence due to drones and new infra made it possible for both to claim the area more forcefully.
Last edited by RajaRudra on 13 Dec 2022 18:32, edited 1 time in total.
Srikanth P
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Srikanth P »

@iyersan

Sounds nice but no reputable source of this info. Indians need to stop reacting to the enemy entering our territory and need up the ante to make china hurt a bit.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

China knocking on door. Meanwhile, the IAF Chief

https://www.tribuneindia.com/news/natio ... ari-459691
“Our strength is going down due to phasing out of older jets…After MiG 21s are phased out, the same will happen with Jaguar and Mirage.” He said the focus was on the production of the Light Combat Aircraft Mark 1-A version, followed by the LCA Mark-2 version and the Advanced Medium Combat Aircraft. “The immediate gap is being filled by the Multirole Fighter Aircraft, 114 of which will be made in India with a foreign partner,” he said.
If I had a GPay deposit of Rs 1 every time he said the bolded part above, I could have purchased a Rafale by now
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

Prem Kumar wrote:If I had a GPay deposit of Rs 1 every time he said the bolded part above, I could have purchased a Rafale by now
He is making the case for RFP (Rafale for Production) in India.

Rather than have the GOI do it (which will go against their own policy of Atmanirbhar Bharat), get the Air Chief to do it.

I don't want to digress this thread, so feel free to reply (if you wish) in the Rafale or MRCA thread. Thanks.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

https://twitter.com/TheLegateIN/status/ ... _5UVOEqgZw ---> Chinese PLA spokesperson begs "Indian side to strictly control and restrain Indian Army's front-line troops".
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Prem Kumar »

https://swarajyamag.com/news-brief/tawa ... eport-says

Ok, this is significant. Looks like we had advanced intel on Chinese intentions in that sector! If we have developed some Humint (spy) & ELINT (eavesdrop) capabilities as well, this is a very nice development!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by JTull »

There's no evidence that IA was reactive or it wasn't the one doing proactive/aggressive patrolling or manning a grey/forward area. PLA could have showed up to show IA its place but had to retreat with tail between legs.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Lisa »

China claims Indian troops crossed the border and attacked its soldiers

https://www.opindia.com/2022/12/china-c ... -soldiers/ :roll:
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ashokk »

The Indian soldiers "practically" chased back the Chinese, the report adds. Indian soldiers also detained a few Chinese soldiers during the clash. :)

Forced to retreat from the site of the face-off, the numerically overwhelmed soldiers of the People's Liberation Army (PLA) fired warning shots to deter Indian troops, the India Today report says.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

'It's not 1962 anymore,' Arunachal CM Khandu reacts to Tawang face-off: Key points - ToI
Arunachal Pradesh chief minister Pema Khandu said that India's soldiers would give a befitting reply to anyone who "tries to transgress" the Line of Actual Control.

In a stern warning, he recalled the 1962 war in which India was attacked by the Chinese Army, and said that anyone who attempts to transgress, Indian soldiers will give a "befitting reply". In 1962, China had invaded India in Ladakh, and across the McMahon Line in the then North-East Frontier Agency.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Rakesh »

VIDEO:- https://twitter.com/NagarJitendra/statu ... _5UVOEqgZw

Be mindful of the volume if you are at work or have folks with sensitive ears.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by RoyG »

I think this is a very serious border incursion in a strategic sector and we have taken prisoners on top of inflicting casualties on their side. The border leadership of China can't send 300 troops across the border unless it's given go ahead from CCP.

Wouldn't be surprised if India had scrambled some fighters given the piece of real estate involved.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SSridhar »

PRC is seriously underestimating India.

This has been a problem with the Chinese Imperial dynasties including the communist Empire. Once the Emperor takes a stance, it is etched in stone. In modern times, whether it is Great Leap, Cultural Revolution, Indo-China Sea, Xinjiang, Taiwan, Corona, Zero-Covid, Fintech companies, SOEs, Hong Kong, Ladakh, Arunachal etc. The echo-chamber sycophants cannot carry bad news to the Emperor. Something has to give way in a big way before the Emperor sees the writing on the wall.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SBajwa »

Chinese soldiers running away from Indian Jawans at Tawang., watch this video

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ankit Desai »

SBajwa wrote:Chinese soldiers running away from Indian Jawans at Tawang., watch this video ....
Same video from Shiv Aroor twitter account. It is old video. It should be snow covered in the area this time.

https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 8391095298

-Ankit
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by SBajwa »

RoyG wrote:I think this is a very serious border incursion in a strategic sector and we have taken prisoners on top of inflicting casualties on their side. The border leadership of China can't send 300 troops across the border unless it's given go ahead from CCP.

Wouldn't be surprised if India had scrambled some fighters given the piece of real estate involved.

India did and is currently air patrolling from the Hasimara Air base with Su MKI planes
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Ankit Desai »

Panvala report, JAK Rifles, Sikh LI & Jat were involved.

-Ankit
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Deans »

Ankit Desai wrote:Panvala report, JAK Rifles, Sikh LI & Jat were involved.

-Ankit
These 3 battalions may be part of our brigade in the area, but the troops involved in the incident would most likely be from 1 battalion only.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Lisa wrote:China claims Indian troops crossed the border and attacked its soldiers

https://www.opindia.com/2022/12/china-c ... -soldiers/ :roll:
Cyrano khush hua ! :twisted: :twisted: :twisted:
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by yensoy »

Ankit Desai wrote:
SBajwa wrote:Chinese soldiers running away from Indian Jawans at Tawang., watch this video ....
Same video from Shiv Aroor twitter account. It is old video. It should be snow covered in the area this time.
https://twitter.com/ShivAroor/status/16 ... 8391095298
-Ankit
Pansies are wearing masks so it's relatively recent. I won't be surprised if this is from Tawang/Arunachal area from last week, maybe a different location if not the one being discussed. Number of people seen seem to match with troop estimates (300 and 50).

This is neither 1962 nor 2020. Today as in 2022 China is on the backfoot with its edifice of economy, industry, "peaceful rise", real estate and "zero covid" crumbling down to reveal the hollowness of its society. India is on a strong wicket, a rising economy in a time of worldwide uncertainty.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by JTull »

I don't see evidence of our jawans had "everything and more than what the Chinese had" in response to Chinese soldiers being armed with "spiked clubs, taser guns and a variety of melee weapons".
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