India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Vips · Post by **Vips** » 19 Sep 2020 20:25

nam wrote:The Lt Gen is his blog has stated what we thought was the key: Artillery & Airpower. Chini TFTA Rockets against our heights are useless.

Chinis would try out precision attacks using drones or artillery. It is imperative to get out counter battery and airpower in place to decimate Chini artillery and break their attacks.

Not having fast moving self propelled artillery and Mounted Gun systems is going to cost us big. Our fixed positioned artillery guns will be vulnerable to counter firing and the chinese have a huge advantage here as they have deployed MGS in good numbers.

Picklu · Post by **Picklu** » 19 Sep 2020 20:36

We badly need a BENIS thread to properly analyze the antics of this Pyaar-ful Ladyboy Army.

The haughtily puffed up breasts at the beginning .... then the painful screams after the end august thrust by turbaned IA soldiers ... the moaning of the happy ending editor on daily basis ...

we have a sacred duty to document all this.

darshan · Post by **darshan** » 19 Sep 2020 20:40

There's china meets world thread.

krishna_krishna · Post by **krishna_krishna** » 19 Sep 2020 20:43

https://www.gunnersshot.com/2020/09/sin ... tions.html

Please read ,analysis of our actions in kailash range, all goosebumps, dhoti shiverers should read before going to bed sleep peacefully

SriKumar · Post by **SriKumar** » 19 Sep 2020 21:21

Mort Walker wrote:williams,

A few things from Shiv's video, by the way we miss him here, but I think he's missed a few things here:

1. There are additional solar panels towards the back meaning there may be other buildings or bunkers below ground. Each of those panel clusters, look like 36 sq. meters, probably generates a peak power of 5KW at 220 VAC. You see at least 6 of these panel clusters. The solar panels provide power during the day and generator at night. The fuel tanks in the front are unlikely to be for the generator. They are still too close to the building. I suspect those fuel tanks are for vehicles and the one for the generator is behind the building on the left.
2. The power is used for purifying the brackish water from Pangong Tso below and store it in the tank, provide power to below ground bunkers, and power comms, surveillance equipment and associated sensors. There appears to be communication antennas are on top of the building. This is on the front top of the building where the soldiers are standing. It appears the PLA has some commercial point-to-point IP based wireless voice/data comms (looks like cheap Chinese stuff and not mil grade). The IA, being at higher elevation points, is most likely jamming these comms and hence the reports of the PLA running fiber optic cable trunks.
3. The pipes on the outside for gas and water don't make a lot of sense in those extreme freezing temperatures and appear to be PVC conduit running comms cables and power to the top and around the building for the antennas.
4. The video shows only 10 or soldiers, but after April/May there are probably many more PLA soldiers on that location.
5. I don't buy the business of oxygen concentrators. There may indeed be emergency oxygen for wounded, but unlikely on a regular basis. The PLA is not that stupid.

I dont think the object identified as a transformer is a transformer. It is something else. If it was a voltage transformer, there would have been wires going from it to the huts.

IF it is actually a transformer, then the question is- where is the power station that is supplying power to this transformer. And how big is the electric grid. And what is the nature of the power station.

yensoy · Post by **yensoy** » 19 Sep 2020 21:34

madhu wrote:What if china problem is just to give pak lifeline to annex gilgit to its province and then china can have BRI investment with no issue of india fiddling in it.

Is there a way GB province get connected to aksai chin that is much more meaningful road than current CEPC ? May be taking a part of india into aksai chin they may be in advantage and better connectivity?

I think pak going hyper on GB (starting from a map) and China at the door threatening should have some connection w
Without coincidence...

Shaksgam was mostly unpopulated. Not so with G-B.

Regarding connecting GB to Aksai Chin, the road will have to cut through multiple glaciers. It would make zero sense and there is zero need for such a construct even from the CPEC aspect.

Any hint of G-B being annexed to China would be casus belli for us; whether we react or not is to be seen but we could easily make a bid for other parts of erstwhile J&K if such a thing happened.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 19 Sep 2020 21:53

krishna_krishna wrote:https://www.gunnersshot.com/2020/09/sin ... tions.html

Please read ,analysis of our actions in kailash range, all goosebumps, dhoti shiverers should read before going to bed sleep peacefully

the good general says "Mountains offer great manoeuvre space " ..not so sure espicially in winters !!

and then says "North of Pangong Tso offers some scope for employment of armour in the Depsang Plains. However it is a shooting match without manoeuvre space" ...

are these two statements contradictory...if there is no space for manoeuvre in depsang then how come mountains offer great Manoeuvre space ??

SSridhar · Post by **SSridhar** » 19 Sep 2020 21:54

Prasad wrote:I've read multiple accounts of travelers who took the train into Lhasa from Beijing. Even climbing a simple set of stairs ti the first floor feels like climbing a mountain when they reach and need supplementary oxygen to even sleep. Or else the body is so deprived of oxygen that you can't even fall asleep like normal.

Prasad, those who have done the Kailash-Manasarovar trip can tell similar stories too. Constant nausea, no appetite, no energy to move, sleep deprivation etc.

But, you see the sprightly Tibetans with heavy loads on the back climbing mountains easily !

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 19 Sep 2020 21:58

jamwal wrote: Hey, do you have a kml or kmz file of these roads and posts that you can share?

I have made a .kmz file of these points. Please provide an email for me to send to.

tandav · Post by **tandav** » 19 Sep 2020 21:59

Chinese supply though long, their soldiers are garrisoned in comfortable quarters with plentiful water, power, communications and fuel. They are comfortable while our soldiers are roughing it out in the cold high altitude areas which is good for war but not great for morale in the peacetime. This is a battle that the Chinese would love to play, it will fuel discontent in the IA. There are many interesting ideas that the Chinese are trying out and we should have similar ideas on our side. There must be fibre optic lines to all the high spots held by the IA and solar panels to provide shade and power the sensors. IA must reverse salami slice the LAC by slowly and surely occupying areas that are not occupied to the extent of surrounding, destroying PLA equipment/sensors cutting off PLA positions where ever possible. This is what they do to us and we should do the same to their static positions.

I am also worried about PLA laser dazzlers to temporarily blind our troops. I hope we have enough cat eye type reflectors to offer fake targets to the dazzler devices.

http://www.indiandefencereview.com/news ... -deniable/

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 19 Sep 2020 22:01

Prasad wrote:I've read multiple accounts of travelers who took the train into Lhasa from Beijing. Even climbing a simple set of stairs ti the first floor feels like climbing a mountain when they reach and need supplementary oxygen to even sleep. Or else the body is so deprived of oxygen that you can't even fall asleep like normal. Flying in makes it slightly easier bit the bulk of the plagf troops will be coming in by train. Although acclimatization should not be that big of a deal if they were already in Tibet sincere they're TAR focused group armies. The Tanggula pass is at 5000m asl which the rain line has to cross to get to Lhasa.

Prasad, acclimatization is no rocket science. Mountaineers do it. India does that by thousands every year without breaking a sweat. But the issue we are talking is that PLA are trying shortcuts like oxygen generators (check shiv’s hilarious video) on mountaintops. And their studies talk of hyperbaric sleeping quarters of a large scale. This means they were after instant solutions for unique issues that only PLA faces - conscripts who need to acclimatize in a jiffy, before they get released back to plains. So current oxygen generators on mountain tops means they either have issues with troops dragging ass claiming sickness or some over enthusiastic Tsingtao tech-grads as political commissars suggesting a physics solution to a biological issue. Or both together.

Either way, they are not going to do well when they need to grunt in war - slow acclimatization and specialist mountain troops are the only way. The alternative is for them to train the Tibetans to high military combat standards and tell them it is to defend against their fellow Tibetan freedom fighters. So far the Tibetans in Tibet have not shown much excitement in joining PLA’s combat side nor are they trusted by PLA, unlike in India where they are trusted as brothers

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 19 Sep 2020 22:14

Can the Chinese hire Nepalese mercenaries - a few thousand of them, to operate in the mountains? Given how close Oli is to the Chinese, they may be able to do such a thing, no?

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Sep 2020 22:18

As some one suggested, we should broadcast message in Tibetan and Chinese that any Tibetan surrendering will be allowed in India as refugees and get darshan of Dalai Lama.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 19 Sep 2020 22:28

Dumb question: does rapid high altitude acclimatization involve something like the bends for divers who resurface too rapidly ? In other words are there any negative physiological issues that arise from forcing rapid acclimatization in an unnatural manner ?

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 19 Sep 2020 22:35

Anoop wrote:
jamwal wrote: Hey, do you have a kml or kmz file of these roads and posts that you can share?
I have made a .kmz file of these points. Please provide an email for me to send to.

Please check private message.

I've been tracking Chinese roads leading up to Indian borders. So far it seems like they have far better transport infrastructure near Bhutan and Arunachal Border than Aksai Chin. Occupied Tibet in former has lot more civilian settlements too.
We are so focused on defence that we ignore so many weak points that Chinese have all across the border. If they open up a front in northern Laddakh, they have 3 weak ones to defend in easte. Some of the experts like Lt Gen Ravi Shankar are quite right when they say that Chinese are pussies, not dragons. Their military posts are usually quite isolated and seemingly good enough only for garrison duties. Few teams of mobile infantry can cut off most of their supply lines and make life hell for PLA. Indian troops in Laddakh and Kashmir seemingly have much stronger and shorter communication and supply lines than Chinese. There is a lot of vidhwa vilap over their roads like the one on Pangong Tso lake, but take a good look at it's condition and you'll realise that there's not enough space to make a u-turn for even Hummer type vehicles. Also due to brittle mountainside, water channels and snow, almost all of their roads past their main highways need continuous maintenance just like ours in Laddakh. They are at disadvantage there too as they have a lot more distance to cover.

Their CPEC road passing through PoJK seems like a joke. There are 3-5 landlsides even in summer months every 50 km or so. In winters, most of that road is simply impassable. What are they trying to transport through that road, if someone knows, please explain it here. This road leading from Aksai Chin till it meets Paki N35 and N15 is more trouble than it's worth and will be unusable for atleast 4-5 months in winters. Large trucks and tankers need wide and straight roads to transport something economically. Doing one trip down this road from Gwadar to Aksai Chin will screw up tires, suspensions and all the joints of any loaded truck and guzzle up huge quantities of fuel. Have I missed any such basic analysis or what? If Pakis have paid for this road, then they've been scammed royally.

Suraj wrote:Dumb question: does rapid high altitude acclimatization involve something like the bends for divers who resurface too rapidly ? In other words are there any negative physiological issues that arise from forcing rapid acclimatization in an unnatural manner ?

I have a bit of personal experience in this matter. Most people from plains are fine till they are at 1400-1600 m altitude. Some have issues once they cross this level and almost everyone will suffer from some breathless and fatigue past 3000 m in simple physical activities like walking, running etc. Most people say that it's lack of oxygen which is only partially true. This discomfort is actually due to thinner atmosphere and corresponding drop in airpressure. For sake of an example, if a person needs to breath in once to get 1 litre of air at 100 m, he'll need to take 3 at 2500 m. That's what causes breathlessness. People who've walked to Vaishno Devi must have experienced it a bit, even though it's height is just 1600 m.
A lot of tourists fall sick when they drive to Rohtang from Delhi or Chandigarh within 20-24 hours. A lot have to turn back from Leh when they suddenly reach 3300 m altitude of Leh within a few hours. Leh's air has same proportion of oxygen and nitrogen as Delhi, it's just thinner.

I am not a complete expert, but unless you gradually acclimatize your body to high altitudes past 4000 m, you'll have a tough time. Even then it's not perfect. I knew some people who were frequent travelers to high altitude places like Laddakh and Lahaul Spiti and yet fell sick and a some even died.
If a fit person with no medical issues is suddenly deployed in such terrain, he will most probably not die. But he will be useless as a soldier as even a short walk will tire him. For less fit people any heart disease, BP and even common cold can turn lethal within days. Gradual acclimation increases lung capacity, increases number of blood cells and their oxygen carrying capacity, makes your heart muscles stronger and lets it pump more blood with every pulse. Sitting in a low pressure chamber seems like a last resort kind of thing. Unless you are forcing your body to push itself by some exercise in higher altitude, I don't think that it'll have same effect on body. It also needs time.
Doctors prescribe blood thinners for short duration of travel, but even that can help only so much.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 19 Sep 2020 22:37

If HACE/HAPE occur, there can be permanent damage to the retina [retinal haemorrhage] and lungs [pulmonary oedema can damage the lungs]. But most effects should be reversible with proper care.

shyamd · Post by **shyamd** » 19 Sep 2020 22:46

jamwal wrote:
Anoop wrote:
I have made a .kmz file of these points. Please provide an email for me to send to.
Their CPEC road passing through PoJK seems like a joke. There are 3-5 landlsides even in summer months every 50 km or so. In winters, most of that road is simply impassable. What are they trying to transport through that road, if someone knows, please explain it here. This road leading from Aksai Chin till it meets Paki N35 and N15 is more trouble than it's worth and will be unusable for atleast 4-5 months in winters. Large trucks and tankers need wide and straight roads to transport something economically. Doing one trip down this road from Gwadar to Aksai Chin will screw up tires, suspensions and all the joints of any loaded truck and guzzle up huge quantities of fuel. Have I missed any such basic analysis or what? If Pakis have paid for this road, then they've been scammed royally.

This is exactly why PRC asked GOI if they can build road to mumbai and kolkata instead of TSP. GOI said no.

Suraj · Post by **Suraj** » 19 Sep 2020 23:01

Thank you for the detailed responses, jamwal and Shanmukh!

Anoop · Post by **Anoop** » 19 Sep 2020 23:03

Mort Walker wrote: The power is used for purifying the brackish water from Pangong Tso below and store it in the tank, provide power to below ground bunkers, and power comms, surveillance equipment and associated sensors.

Mort Walker, how is the brackish water from Pangong Tso delivered to this post? If it is by vehicle why not clean it up at the Moldo Post and then deliver potable water, instead of having to purify it at this location? I don't see a pipeline of water to this post to deliver raw water. There is a vertical pipe with a flexible hose from the ground to the right (3:40 mins), but that hose may be to supply water from this post to the white building on the right.

Secondly, this does not look like a location where you can have below ground bunkers. What is the equipment required to dig into the ground for underground bunkers? Where are the ingress/egress points from the bunkers? Where is the overhead protection from an artillery shell or air attack that will bury people inside the underground bunker for good? What is a typical gradient for the ingress/egress tunnels to underground bunkers - refer to photographs of our bunkers along the LoC to see how they are sited, particularly w.r.t overhead protection. Where is the perimeter security - trench lines, barricades, LMG/MMG posts that suggest this is a defensive location instead of a surveillance post on the saddle connecting their posts on Pangong Tso and Spangur Tso? Their only defense appears to be the mountainside blocking the IA's view from Gurung Hill.

Regarding power/communications - what are the poles visible at 1:12 mins? Looks like telephone lines since there is no point having solar panels if you had already laid electric lines.

Shanmukh · Post by **Shanmukh** » 19 Sep 2020 23:04

Suraj wrote:Thank you for the detailed responses, jamwal and Shanmukh!

Suraj-saar, I have only listed cases where people SURVIVE and suffer damage. If things go bad, HACE/HAPE can kill a person quite rapidly, especially in combination with other factors like hypothermia [the combination of these two is utterly murderous]. IIRC, Martina Navratilova suffered HACE/HAPE when she went mountaineering somewhere in Africa, and had to be airlifted out, though I don't know if she suffered permanent damage.

Ashokk · Post by **Ashokk** » 19 Sep 2020 23:08

g.sarkar wrote:https://www.rediff.com/news/report/arre ... 200919.htm
Arrested journalist passed on secrets to Chinese intel: Cops
Edited By: Utkarsh MishraSeptember 19, 2020.
The Delhi Police on Saturday said it has arrested a Chinese woman and her Nepalese associate, and claimed that they were paying huge amounts of money to freelance journalist Rajeev Sharma for allegedly passing sensitive information to 'Chinese intelligence'....

Not surprised that he was a congi , twitter timeline is ample proof https://twitter.com/kishkindha?lang=en

idan · Post by **idan** » 19 Sep 2020 23:32

Once winter sets in, majority of PLA will go away. We should use our snow leopards to move the LAC as much as we can for the Spring!

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Sep 2020 23:33

The Chinese are not going to go away without some kind of understanding with India else all their Salami slicing will be rolled back plus India might even march up to its perception of the LAC at places where it hasn't even patrolled for years.

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 19 Sep 2020 23:37

Suraj wrote:Dumb question: does rapid high altitude acclimatization involve something like the bends for divers who resurface too rapidly ? In other words are there any negative physiological issues that arise from forcing rapid acclimatization in an unnatural manner ?

Suraj-san both are respiratory problems but very different in nature. Had mild cases of both.

Divers bends is caused by nitrogen dissolved in the blood under pressure and then when you surface the nitrogen rapidly bubbles out with almost fatal consequences. In bad cases it accumulates in joints and causes pain. In severe cases causes internal bleeding. I had a mild case when diving and not giving enough breaks in between. Ended up with severe fatigue and headache.

In contrast, got altitude sickness in the Pyrenees. Totally totally bad. Headache. Felt I couldn't breathe. Lungs got filled with fluid. Was drowning in my own lungs. Caused by shortage of oxygen in air. Makes you hyperventilate.

So totally different causes. But yes both can be fatal.

pankajs · Post by **pankajs** » 19 Sep 2020 23:48

https://www.indiatoday.in/india/story/s ... 2020-09-16
Spotlight On Pangong, China build-up now clear in Depsang

The build-up area marked on the map is beyond our patrol points, even those that have been blocked. IFF their data is correct, the buildup is around and beyond their Tianwendian base @ 35°19'50.50"N, 78°10'45.10"E which is about 23 km east of DBO

Satellite photographs from European space assets from July and September show the first visible evidence of a build-up in at least six areas near a pre-existing Chinese all-weather post about 23 km east of Daulat Beg Oldie on the Chinese side of the Line of Actual Control.
...
While both sides remain on their side of the LAC in Depsang, attempts to block patrols have been taking place since late May, with the Indian Army mounting its own localised movements to apply counter-pressure on Chinese patrols. {As I has written before in response ot BC's piece, there are routes to the area beyond the y-junction and j-junction does NOT "control access"}

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Sep 2020 00:22

Mukesh.Kumar wrote:
Suraj wrote:Dumb question: does rapid high altitude acclimatization involve something like the bends for divers who resurface too rapidly ? In other words are there any negative physiological issues that arise from forcing rapid acclimatization in an unnatural manner ?
Suraj-san both are respiratory problems but very different in nature. Had mild cases of both.

Divers bends is caused by nitrogen dissolved in the blood under pressure and then when you surface the nitrogen rapidly bubbles out with almost fatal consequences. In bad cases it accumulates in joints and causes pain. In severe cases causes internal bleeding. I had a mild case when diving and not giving enough breaks in between. Ended up with severe fatigue and headache.

In contrast, got altitude sickness in the Pyrenees. Totally totally bad. Headache. Felt I couldn't breathe. Lungs got filled with fluid. Was drowning in my own lungs. Caused by shortage of oxygen in air. Makes you hyperventilate.

So totally different causes. But yes both can be fatal.

Sir! I am in awe. Not that I want to experience the bends or altitude sickness but that you've dived to the depths of the seas and climbed to top of mountains has engendered great admiration from this couch-bound desi potato.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Sep 2020 00:29

Suraj wrote:Dumb question: does rapid high altitude acclimatization involve something like the bends for divers who resurface too rapidly ? In other words are there any negative physiological issues that arise from forcing rapid acclimatization in an unnatural manner ?

Suraj, others have replied. It is all about air pressure. Want to add this: not just ocean, but even above surface bends can happen during rapid ascends in unpressurized aircrafts and upper atmos balloons. Aerobatics are supposed to cause this in some. But it is less pronounced for road travelers since the pressure drop is not as drastic as an oceanic ascent and hours long travel helps. The issue I was pointing out is that using same solution as Scuba repatriation is not going to work for high altitude acclimatization. The persistent pressure drop is what causes longer term fatigue and other physiological issues, not nitrogen bubbles.

Also HAPE is like extreme covid cases and is traumatic to watch for medics as per an army doc friend. You know the person is drowning in their own fluids over a few hours. Sound a of a helo is the most joyous as per him

This is when you come to appreciate the likes of Indian Army legends like Colonel Bull Kumar - apparently tough as nails at any height and skis rapidly down crazy elevation drops around Bilafonda La when he wanted to relax. That too back in 1980s before the boys at Teton Gravity Research started making ski-p0rn movies you see playing in ski lodges of the world.

hnair · Post by **hnair** » 20 Sep 2020 00:33

Shanmukh wrote:Can the Chinese hire Nepalese mercenaries - a few thousand of them, to operate in the mountains? Given how close Oli is to the Chinese, they may be able to do such a thing, no?

Oil is not going to do any such things. There will be hell to pay and he knows that already. It is not that difficult to replace him as he found out recently from the warning shots

jamwal · Post by **jamwal** » 20 Sep 2020 00:36

Nepalis soldiers are part of commonwealth armies since a long time. If Chinese pay them well, what's stopping them from joining PLA? A lot of Nepalis, atleast on internet act just like Oli. Indian policies haven't been that great either wrt Nepal.

M_Joshi · Post by **M_Joshi** » 20 Sep 2020 00:41

林才竣Michael新號
@Michael90656953
被派到中印邊境的解放軍，在車上唱歌時，忍不住哭鼻子了。
想想也是，花了銀子入伍，本身來計划是鍍個金，轉業當大王，現在变成當砲灰。
Translated from Chinese by
The People's Liberation Army sent to the China-India border couldn't help crying while singing in the car.
Think about it, too, after spending money to join the army, the plan was to plate a gold and become a king, and now it becomes a cannon fodder.

https://mobile.twitter.com/Michael90656 ... 9775353859

Watch the video

Mukesh.Kumar · Post by **Mukesh.Kumar** » 20 Sep 2020 01:06

chola wrote: Sir! I am in awe. Not that I want to experience the bends or altitude sickness but that you've dived to the depths of the seas and climbed to top of mountains has engendered great admiration from this couch-bound desi potato.

Sir you are embarrassing me. Am also a SDRE, maybe just a little more 'jazba' than sense.

Of these two the diving episode was more dangerous. I was partnering with a newbie who ran out of air and we did a rapid ascent from 35m (without Nitrox- don't ask me the stupidity that I did going so deep) and even with sharing my tank we ran out of air. We skipped one regulation stop. Didn't feel anything at the moment. He skipped for rest of day. I went on to dive twice more. Result. Next day I was sick. He was fine.

Point I would make is that with proper training and following best practices it's not life threatening. And letting the body adapt.

Same I believe is for the current situation. Indian army has experience and training. The Chinese to best of our knowledge don't. These fancy gimmicks of oxygen tents are good. They give your body a boost for a few hours. Trust me after that you will cry harder when your lungs cry out for oxygen and you are drowning in your own mucus. When you are grasping for breath and dehydrating fast.

I will quote hnair sir.

hnair wrote: Suraj, others have replied. It is all about air pressure. Want to add this: not just ocean, but even above surface bends can happen during rapid ascends in unpressurized aircrafts and upper atmos balloons. Aerobatics are supposed to cause this in some. But it is less pronounced for road travelers since the pressure drop is not as drastic as an oceanic ascent and hours long travel helps. .....

Also HAPE is like extreme covid cases and is traumatic to watch for medics as per an army doc friend. You know the person is drowning in their own fluids over a few hours. Sound a of a helo is the most joyous as per him

....

I wish that the Chinese airlift large numbers if troops from the plains. That's the best way to incapacitate your own troops. And as the age old adage says it takes more resources to care for a maimed soldier than a dead one. Let their field hospitals and base hospitals get filled with the sick even before a shot is fired.

nam · Post by **nam** » 20 Sep 2020 01:29

Exact thoughts I had, when the Chinis were banding about their 15th Airborne..

I wanted them to fly in and drop over LAC. And start falling down gasping for their breadth.

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Sep 2020 03:51

Mukesh.Kumar wrote: Sir you are embarrassing me. Am also a SDRE, maybe just a little more 'jazba' than sense.
...
I wish that the Chinese airlift large numbers if troops from the plains. That's the best way to incapacitate your own troops. And as the age old adage says it takes more resources to care for a maimed soldier than a dead one. Let their field hospitals and base hospitals get filled with the sick even before a shot is fired.

I do not want to embarass you any more, Kumar ji. But that is a great observation backed by experience which I really appreciate.

chola · Post by **chola** » 20 Sep 2020 03:58

Chinis are scared sh1tless of IAF. Air raid sirens over Lhasa!

Though there is a possibility it is a tactic to instill fear on the local Tibetan population.

https://eurasiantimes.com/china-prepare ... s-rafales/

China Prepares For A Possible Invasion By Indian Air Force Jets Led By Su-30 MKIs & Rafales

Published 19 hours ago on September 19, 2020 By EurAsian Times Desk

Bracing itself for an aerial attack by the Indian Air Force (IAF) on its airbases, China has reportedly begun planning military drills in its Himalayan city of Lhasa, which also serves as the administrative capital of the Tibet Autonomous Region (TAR).
...

With reports of the IAF deploying Su-30s, MKI, Jaguar and Mirage 2000 fighters in the Ladakh region, soon to be joined by the newly inducted French Rafales, China has stepped up its efforts to prepare itself for an aerial attack and according to a Chinese state-run outlet, Beijing will hold an air raid drill in the Lhasa city on Saturday (September 19).

According to the People’s Daily, the air drill will be held “in order to improve the general public’s national defense concept and civil air defense awareness.”

As reported, the Chinese government states that the sirens of the drill which will be played on Saturday will be of three different types with a total duration of 3 minutes each.

The first siren will be played from 12 to 12.03 pm, sounding for 36 seconds with a gap of 24 seconds, which will be followed by the second siren from 12.06 to 12.09 pm, sounding for six seconds with a gap of six seconds, which will be concluded by the last siren which will be a continuous alarm from 12:12 to 12:15 pm.

...

A retired Indian Army official, Colonel Vinayak Bhat, while writing a column for an Indian publication, India Today, however, feels that the timing of the drills raises several eyebrows with the last Chinese drills to mark the occasion in Lhasa being held back in 2009.

“In the current situation of ongoing border friction between China and India, this looks like Beijing’s psychological warfare tactic to create a climate of fear among local Tibetans,” said Bhat.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Sep 2020 05:33

pankajs wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Happy to be corrected, but the bend at Galwan where the clash happened is still in Chinese control, after "de-escalation" and "dis-engagement". The bend gives the Chinese line of sight to all Indian positions in the valley. From that bend, the Chinese spotters can call in artillery fire on the entire length of Indian positions.

So to summarize, while we've occupied some strategic positions overlooking Spanggur Gap, the Chinese still retain all the gains they have made so far. And as time flies by, the gains get consolidated and become permanent.

No one is even giving the scantest respect or regard to the "Indian" perception of the LAC in any area that Chinese have crossed and consolidated (refer Depsang & Galwan maps)
The point about Galwan is not true. Multiple reports by muliple agencies and reporters have confirmed that the ONLY place where full dis-engagement happened was at Galwan and the forces have moved back about 1.5 to 2.0 km each on either side of the LAC which in anycase is on the Chinese side of the bend.

Even Crooklow had to shift the LAC by 1.5 to 2.0 km beyond the bend on the Chinese side to claim that the Chinese are still sitting on LAC while Indian Army moved back by 3 km. Even if you believe him, the Chinese are @ LAC which according to Crooklow is 1.5 to 2.0 km beyond the bend on the Chinese side. Even by his account, the Chinese spotters don't have a line of sight on Indian positions.

Disengagement means both sides withdraw. As you mention, IA withdrew X km and PLA withdrew Y km. That bend needs to be firmly under Indian control to ensure Chinese spotters dont reoccupy it and direct artillery on Indian positions.

Disengagement doesnt result in Status Quo Ante. Disengagement doesnt lead to Indian occupation of a vital position.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Sep 2020 05:35

sivab wrote:
Danvir Singh
@danvir_chauhan
Sir, I can tell you with 100% confirmed source information that Helmet and Blacktop are firmly under our boots. In fact our boys are sitting on the saddle of the spur that juts out towards Spangur.

Happy if this is indeed the case.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Sep 2020 05:50

nachiket wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Given that we've dharmically decided not to occupy Black Top and Helmet Top
If the Chinese never withdrew from Black Top after 1962 and have a post on top, then we cannot "occupy" it. It will have to be captured, Kargil style with an uphill assault followed by a firefight. Given that no state of war still exists between the two countries even now and neither side has gone beyond warning shots, how do you propose we do that without starting a war?

Too much contradictory news coming. Initial reports said we occupied these positions. Then there were reports that we dont.

The fact that these positions have Indian given names indicate that they have relevance. Irrelevant positions dont get names on maps.

Secondly, given that status quo ante will never be achieved, its best we occupy whatever heights we can given the situation. As Pakistan discovered in Siachen in the 80's and we at Kargil in 99, mountain warfare gives first mover all the advantages and re-occupying is extremely costly in terms of manpower and resources.

At Kargil, we massed artillery for set piece engagements. We wont have the luxury of time and set piece battle on the Ladakh border.

Yagnasri · Post by **Yagnasri** » 20 Sep 2020 06:04

and no blankets and had to walk 30 days to the nearest road.

tsarkar · Post by **tsarkar** » 20 Sep 2020 06:17

Roop wrote:
tsarkar wrote:Today the DBO airfield is 30 km from Chinese positions - well within artillery range. The Darbuk–Shyok-DBO Road is 7 km from Chinese positions - well within mortar ranges.
Okay, but what you are implying (or hypothesizing about) is a situation where the Chinese "go kinetic" (start a serious shooting war) against India and get away with no meaningful repercussions.

No, I was talking about maintaining the posture in peacetime. In peacetime, the more advantageous positions one occupies given them the benefit at war. For example, when we occupied Saltoro range in 1980's before the shooting started.

Roop wrote:Chinese positions would themselves receive the loving attention of Indian artillery, airstrikes, cruise missile strikes etc....
cruise-missile strikes

There is a lot of faith in cruise missiles, not just in India but globally in the internet community.

Did you wonder why I wrote this?

tsarkar wrote:Today the DBO airfield is 30 km from Chinese positions - well within artillery range. The Darbuk–Shyok-DBO Road is 7 km from Chinese positions - well within mortar ranges.

Cruise missiles are a very expensive way of depositing 100 kg explosive warhead. And sufficient missiles are simply not available for all taskings.

Same with air strikes. While on the internet people go gushing on seeing a LGB strike video on Tiger Hill, that was just one tasking out of hundreds required. And the remaining hundreds were fulfilled by artillery.

https://www.bharat-rakshak.com/ARMY/his ... oling.html

In the last few days of May, Brigadier Lakhinder Singh commander of Drass Artillery brigade moved in to the battle zone. He observed that the deployment of artillery was frugal and that the attacks were not concentrated. The tall and well built Sikh soon started things moving. In the initial phase from mid May to first week of June there were only a few batteries of 105 mm guns. By the end of the first week of June, 130 mm as well as 155 mm guns started moving in.

At Kargil, air strikes fulfilled single digit percentages of the overall firepower taskings. The remaining were fulfilled by artillery and infantry mortars.

For artillery to work, one needs to have the enemy within range. As a corollary, one needs to keep enemy artillery out of range of own assets.

Which is why peace time occupation of key heights and areas is important. And atleast at Depsang they've come too close to both DBO airfield and DSDBO road.

The Indian PP's are inaccessible now and its unlikely status quo ante will be restored after 3 months of standoff. No one is even talking or referring to Indian perception of LAC or the actual IB. The best we can do is occupy VA/VP's to prevent further incursions.

manjgu · Post by **manjgu** » 20 Sep 2020 06:41

pankajs wrote:As some one suggested, we should broadcast message in Tibetan and Chinese that any Tibetan surrendering will be allowed in India as refugees and get darshan of Dalai Lama.

Diamox taken twice daily ..2 to 3 days before going to heights allows u to goto heights and not have acclimatisation issues ...