India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

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ks_sachin
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ks_sachin »

GShankar wrote:
LakshmanPST wrote:https://twitter.com/SJha1618/status/149 ... sjqrA&s=19



They may not attack Taiwan for now, but I feel they'll try something with India...
Currently, India is in a difficult position diplomatically with respect to Ukraine crisis... China may feel this is an ideal time to attack us...
If PRC is serious about taiwan, then they need to create a posture against us. And vice versa. Don't need to be careless but I think we are fine. Only missing piece so far for us, is to capitalize on the gains achieved.

Another missing piece for us is a munna in the norther indonesian / philippino sea. time to declare the first shipment of brahmos (i know too soon..)
Brahmins exports have already started no?

Up the musharraf to our west?
anupmisra
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by anupmisra »

ks_sachin wrote:Brahmins exports have already started no?
I didn't know that Brahmins were open for export!
GShankar
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by GShankar »

anupmisra wrote:
ks_sachin wrote:Brahmins exports have already started no?
I didn't know that Brahmins were open for export!
Brahmos/brahmins - all same only :) a little typo notwithstanding.

ks_sachin: May be I am wrong but I thought we only announced the deal and have not shipped yet.
Manish_Sharma
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Manish_Sharma »

@Ak5985965:

Lt Gen Panag @rwac48 claims :

''Below the nuclear threshold, for any form of conflict, we do not have the technological military capability to defeat Pakistan or avoid a military embarrassment by China''

This is Pakistani propaganda and 100% false as I explain inthread

1/n

Either Panag has forgotten the basics of tac, operational art or he is severely compromised. Since Pravin Shawney says same it's probably the second

Here is a detailed thread on how India can defeat Pak. Notice use of terrain, tactics, dispositions

https://t.co/Cl2A1ehefN

2/n


Wars are not fought, won on the @ThePrintIndia but on ground. One of the most basic element of Indian military thinking is sound appreciation of terrain. Our op environment is not the same as Russia vs Ukraine. It is entirely different

Russia also made some serious mistakes

3/n

1. They did not get air dominance in the early stages because they held back use of air power. They did not strike radars, missiles, lgs dumps. They did not eliminate the Ukrainian Air Force as they should have

2. They launched SHBO strikes on multiple airfields with

4/n

understrength teams. They did not reinforce them

3. Worst of all they launched multiple axis of attacks instead of just one main axis - Donetz - Kherson - Melitopol. These were 200 - 500 km thrusts. India will not make more than a 70 - 100 km thrust at most

4. They also

5/n

glaring tactical errors in the movement of convoys bunching them together, infantry not dismounting to sanitise flanks of advance, bad command and control. And frankly so stomach for contact and fighting

Gen Panag should know that we are the opposite. Our army seeks contact

6/n

closes in and destroys the enemy. We are a 100% volunteer professional battle hardened army constantly in operations. We will not make such rookie errors. We will not get drawn into urban warfare

Panag claims our logistics will fail. How ? He bases this entirely on Russian

7/n

army experience. Sir, surely you know that logistics over a 400 km line of communication and a 70 km line of communication esp in desert are two entirely different things. You say Russian troops went without food for 48 hrs. It won't happen but if it does, it's no big deal

8/n

Next Panag talks about ''stand off weapons''. I agree they are important and I strongly believe that we should increase long range fires and also change our concepts of utilisation for them. But saying that Pak has an advantage over us is delusional and dishonest

9/n

Lets come to China

People forget that our objective against China will be to hold our own, make tactical gains in some places via shallow offensives. We are not marching into Lhasa

Main points

1. China cannot deploy large numbers against us because mountain passes allow

10/n

only a brigade or two to come through at one time. You can hold 3-4 divisions (60,000) enemy troops with just 1, 2 brigades (4000) at a pass. But we have matched China man to man !

2. Panag says China can launch a massive strike against us. Sure, but they cannot decapitate

11/n

us. Our forces are well spread out and dug out. Their initial missile strikes will cause attrition but we will retaliate by missiles, arty and IAF and hammer their lines of communication which are 1000 - 2000 km long

Panag has deliberately missed this very important point

12/n

about China's logistics vulnerability. They are very stretched out already as they are far away from their Han heartland. We are not.

Plus our Navy will come into play too

Here is another thread that on how we can handle China. Do read

https://t.co/pJTItV52Nm

13/n

Cold facts of the matter is that we can handle both China and Pak today if we use military logic i.e we do the operationally right thing and be bold

My worry is not equipment but people like Panag, Shawney and others who will act as 5th columnists

How do we handle them

N/n
https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/15 ... r8WSQ&s=19
_______________

Related thread:

https://twitter.com/Ak5985965/status/13 ... RP6HA&s=19
Cyrano
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Why are we giving this Panag so much air to discuss his views? He is a shame on the uniform he once wore.

Pakistan has fought and lost in 48, 65, 71 and 99 against India; China in 2020 has realised India is a vastly different beast than it was in 1962, and has no combat experience since decades.

My take on how China and Pak will see their possible future conflicts with India after watching how mighty Russia is faring in Ukraine so far:
- Russia has regularly fought and achieved its objectives in wars in Chechnya, Georgia, Syria and eastern Ukraine (since 2018). They have considerable recent combat experience in conditions fairly close to what they are now fighting all over Ukraine. Mostly plains, overwhelming force superiority, significantly weaker enemy with puppet/stooge Govts and military forces both propped up by the West with money and weapons supply.

- The current war still needed massive build up on the border for months, thats closely tracked by adversaries using satellite imaging, elint and humint. Impossible to spring any surprise.

- Despite all the equipment, number of combatants, experience and build up, the first 48hrs didn't go as planned in flat plain territory, and they got bogged down, supply lines broken, frontline units got stranded, support columns highly stretched and they became easy pickings at multiple depths of ingression.

- The defending Ukr forces are waging shadow resistance, in small groups that are hard to foresee, detect and destroy. Russians cant kill as many enemy troops as they need to, they are destroying buildings. Ukr forces are destroying Russian men and materials a lot more easily in ambushes.

- While numbers reported vary greatly, the Russian attrition of men and machines is undeniably MASSIVE. 1000s of tanks, ICVs, support vehicles, artillery have been lost, dozens of helis, several transport helis and aircraft, some bombers were also lost. Casualties have been in several hundreds/week, a significant portion of them were highly trained, equipped and supported special forces.

- The cost of war is estimated by some analysts at around 2B$/day, and minimum 1000 soldiers dead/week plus 3x casualties, and equipment losses are in 1000s/week as well. Despite having huge numerical superiority, Russia is taking these huge losses and plodding on, caught in its own H&D with no end game in sight.

After seeing all this, Pakis and Chinis will have nothing but flaccid dreams and deflated egos. Besides there are several factors like terrain, size, technology, training that are far more favourable to India than they are for defending Ukrs. There is simply NO WAY Pakis on the verge of bankruptcy or China's CCP leadership who are perpetually paranoiac that they are on the verge of being overthrown will ever attempt any conflict of scale against India. They have been badly mauled each time they faced Indian forces, even if they managed to spring a surprise by occupying a few 10s of sq kms in the world's highest mountains in peak winter like in Siachen or Ladhak.

Putin has done India an unasked favour at his own (and Ukraine's) expense. He has convinced Pakis, Russians, and anyone who dares to dare, that fighting India militarily is suicide alone or all together.

PS: We should stop referring to Panag with his erstwhile rank, he doesn't deserve it anymore.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by sanjaykumar »

With Panag out of the military, their probability of success has no doubt increased. He would probably have lost even east Pakistan
Aditya_V
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Aditya_V »

Some reports claiming that the Chinese have disengaged from the Hot Springs area. Anyone else heard of this, here is a you tube video from yesterday from HT

Cyrano
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Could be true, given China is trying a spring thaw in its relations with India since the past few days. Or could be our medias on Chini payroll getting excited and jumping the gun. I'd wait for a statement from MoD first.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by VinodTK »

From: Washington Examiner

China may fight India before Taiwan
The post-World War II democratic international order is on life support.
Russia’s invasion of Ukraine raises fears that China might try to take Taiwan by force. The United States did little, for example, after China shredded its treaty commitments on Hong Kong and extended China’s police state to the previously autonomous territory. The Biden administration may have encouraged China further when the White House walked back Biden’s off-the-cuff commitment that the U.S. would defend Taiwan. Biden’s willingness to ignore a “minor incursion” in Ukraine and prioritize the fight against climate change over efforts to counter both China’s genocidal campaign against the Uyghurs and Russia’s moves in Ukraine emboldens Beijing further.
Taiwan, however, is not the only country in mainland China’s sights.

Seventy years ago, Chinese Communist Party authorities gobbled up the entirety of Tibet in a violent, colonialist orgy. Today, mainland China has territorial disputes with 17 other countries . It is one thing to dispute a border but another thing to change it by force. In recent years, China has seized Filipino territory in the South China Sea and encroached by land into Bhutan. Two years ago, China began making similar incursions into Ladakh, an Indian region. That dispute may flare again as the winter snows melt in April and May.

Yet while pundits focus on Taiwan, the bigger danger of Chinese aggression may be 1,700 miles to its east in Arunachal Pradesh, a state in northeastern India bordering Bhutan, China, and Burma.

While Ladakh has a population of less than 300,000, Arunachal Pradesh has 1.2 million. In late December 2021, China signaled its ambitions when it renamed 15 areas inside the Indian state. A month later, Chinese troops abducted a 17-year-old Indian in the state. Just as China has invented out of whole cloth historical claims in the South China Sea, so, too, does it now say Arunachal Pradesh is within the boundaries of historic China. China has even refused to stamp visas onto the passports of Indians from the state in order to underscore Chinese claims that since the state was Chinese, there is no need for visas for its residents.

While any move on Taiwan might engender a broader response, China would not face the same problem with Arunachal Pradesh: It need not fear any U.S. naval deployments, and the state’s greater distance and location inland would make any emergency airlift more difficult than with Taiwan.
Perhaps it’s time for the White House to learn three lessons from Russia’s invasion.
First, distraction and weakness matter. It is doubtful Russian President Vladimir Putin would have made his move had Biden not signaled American impotence with his calamitous Afghanistan withdrawal.


Second, enemies of democracy may not coordinate, but they do seek advantage from distraction and weakness. That Biden and Secretary of State Antony Blinken telegraph both emboldens President Xi Jinping.
Finally, reactive foreign policy puts the U.S. and its allies at a disadvantage. Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky had begged the West not to empower Russia by becoming reliant on its gas and also asked for arms prior to the invasion. Had Barack Obama, Donald Trump, or Biden been more proactive, they might have headed off the land grab.

Putin calculates on some degree of immunity because Russia is a nuclear power. Xi may feel likewise. But unlike Ukraine, India never forfeited its nuclear deterrence nor put its faith in ephemeral Western promises. In hindsight, that was the right decision.

The White House is right to worry about China’s ambitions toward Taiwan, but expansionist states seldom limit their ambitions to a single territory. For China, Taiwan may be the feint; India could be the target.
yensoy
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by yensoy »

^^^^ According to that article, Taiwan isn't in threat because the US is there to back it; but Arunachal Pradesh of course is up for grabs. Like the Indian state and military are going to sit by idly while this happens. Jeez
Mort Walker
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Mort Walker »

yensoy wrote:^^^^ According to that article, Taiwan isn't in threat because the US is there to back it; but Arunachal Pradesh of course is up for grabs. Like the Indian state and military are going to sit by idly while this happens. Jeez
It does make some sense given PLA proclamations. In 1962, the PLA coordinates their attack on India with the USSR during the Cuban Missile Crisis. The high number of divisions the IA has in Arunachal Pradesh do keep the peace.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by brar_w »

yensoy wrote:^^^^ According to that article, Taiwan isn't in threat because the US is there to back it; but Arunachal Pradesh of course is up for grabs. Like the Indian state and military are going to sit by idly while this happens. Jeez
Nobody thinks India is going to sit idly and watch. This is about Chinese perceptions and about the "reality" that Xi and others around him create for themselves. So yes, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that China miscalculates and considers what the article is hypothesizing. History is littered with autocratic regimes making blunders and it isn't like there is a democratic set of institutions to put checks and balances.
Mort Walker wrote: The high number of divisions the IA has in Arunachal Pradesh do keep the peace.
That's why they need to stay there indefinitely.
Last edited by brar_w on 20 Mar 2022 20:07, edited 1 time in total.
Lisa
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Lisa »

brar_w wrote:
yensoy wrote:^^^^ According to that article, Taiwan isn't in threat because the US is there to back it; but Arunachal Pradesh of course is up for grabs. Like the Indian state and military are going to sit by idly while this happens. Jeez
Nobody thinks India is going to sit idly and watch. This is about Chinese perceptions and about the "reality" that Xi and others around him create for themselves. So yes, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that China miscalculates and considers what the article is hypothesizing. History is littered with autocratic regimes making blunders and it isn't like there is a democratic set of institutions to put checks and balances.
These chinese idiots are still waiting for Cap, Rollback and Eliminate as they think that their refusal to recognise Indian Nukes maker them unusable! Nothing is beyond them.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Bart S »

yensoy wrote:^^^^ According to that article, Taiwan isn't in threat because the US is there to back it; but Arunachal Pradesh of course is up for grabs. Like the Indian state and military are going to sit by idly while this happens. Jeez

You are missing the point of the article. Michael Rubin is one of the few pro-India voices in the US think-tank circuit, and is making the case for India's concerns to be accommodated (in various geo-political maneuverings that might currently be happening).
yensoy
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by yensoy »

Bart S wrote:
yensoy wrote:^^^^ According to that article, Taiwan isn't in threat because the US is there to back it; but Arunachal Pradesh of course is up for grabs. Like the Indian state and military are going to sit by idly while this happens. Jeez
You are missing the point of the article. Michael Rubin is one of the few pro-India voices in the US think-tank circuit, and is making the case for India's concerns to be accommodated (in various geo-political maneuverings that might currently be happening).
That is a point indeed. If this article is for shaping US public opinion in our favour that's great.

Regarding Chinese miscalculations... Taiwan has been ingrained as an emotional trigger for the mainlanders, "southern Tibet" not as much. A country which today is extraordinarily afraid to open up because of the off chance of suffering a few thousand early deaths isn't exactly a country which is itching for war. The one child policy has further blunted its fighting will, and no amount of AI and automation nonsense is going to change the fact that a combat will involve casualties. While we should absolutely be prepared not only in a defensive measure but also able to deliver a nasty offensive punch, I hardly think Arunachal is going to be their first pick, especially after the Galwan incident.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Mort Walker »

The PLA has become more aggressive in patrolling areas along Arunachal Pradesh since Oct. 2021, and now they’re talking of disengagement in Ladakh, may be a interpreted as moving resources along the NE boundary. They need to be watched carefully, and it wouldn’t surprise me if they have a secret agreement with Russia.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by S_Madhukar »

Does anyone think Bhutan or Sikkim could be a more juicy target instead of AP ? After all they want access to ports and they might just do a salami slice enough with anything else as a distraction
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by LakshmanPST »

I tend to believe that PLA will attack India before they attack Taiwan... I see some reasons...
-
1) Right now, India is walking a tight rope diplomatically... In terms of public perception in West, India's neutral stand is being seen as pro-Russian stand... Russian side will anyway remain neutral... China may calculate that we may not get the diplomatic support that we'd have otherwise got...
And even if they declare war on India, the public in the West won't perceive it as negatively as they perceive an attack on Taiwan... This will reduce pressure on many Western nations to impose sanctions on China...
-
2) Taiwan is proper Chinese land... Aksai Hind or Arunachal Pradesh is Tibetan land...
PLA can not lose a war on Taiwan under any circumstances... If PLA loses, Taiwan will immediately declare independence... CCP can not afford that...
But, in case of Indian lands, even if PLA loses, it wouldn't matter much to the Chinese public... Atleast not as much as losing Taiwan... PLA may lose some H&D, and a few Generals will be sent to re-education camps... Otherwise, PLA and CCP will be fully intact...
-
3) PLA got this media image in the West that they can not fight due to the Army being full of one child princelings... If China feels that it needs to announce its arrival on international stage as a serious military power, they need to show a proper military success... They'll get that image if they fight India, even in case they don't win...
-
4) Taiwan is an island... Taking Taiwan requires an Amphibious operation... A bunch of Anti-ship cruise missiles will secerely screw PLA's plans... It is too risky I feel they need more ships and training before they can launch an Amphibious mission...
Where as Indian border is a land border, and PLA has been deployed since last two years...
-
5) Fighting India will give them real war-time experience... As I said, Taiwan is their most important mission... They can not attack Taiwan without testing their military doctrine and India is the ideal candidate...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by GShankar »

In the ground, I recall seeing some generals speaking of verified ghar wapsi of cheens in the borders. And probably only one friction point is left to be negotiated.

While this is happening, I don't think there is going to be any effort by cheens that is going to take us by surprise. Now that we are going to be alert for a while and especially now.

We just have to be confident on the facts that we have a capable and proven armed forces. And political leadership with a will to take the fight to the cheens.

May be we must go beyond the aaya nahi, gaya nahi rhetorics. But may be next time.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by KL Dubey »

Lisa wrote:
brar_w wrote:
Nobody thinks India is going to sit idly and watch. This is about Chinese perceptions and about the "reality" that Xi and others around him create for themselves. So yes, it is entirely within the realm of possibility that China miscalculates and considers what the article is hypothesizing. History is littered with autocratic regimes making blunders and it isn't like there is a democratic set of institutions to put checks and balances.
These chinese idiots are still waiting for Cap, Rollback and Eliminate as they think that their refusal to recognise Indian Nukes maker them unusable! Nothing is beyond them.
PLA = paper tiger and a bully who will make many threats but will be thrashed by India if a fight takes place.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by vinod »

China will not attack India until they have Russia firmly in their pocket. India can give a bloody nose to China even if no one comes to our help. Moreover, given the perceived pro-russian stance, China would actually try to tone things down to water down quad which is under stress anyway.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

If at all China dares to attack India in the east, they will target the chicken's neck. The theatre is small and if they succeed, they can claim victory saying they have dismembered India and cut off NE states. They can't get direct support from Pakis but can count on Pakis to make trouble on LAC and trigger sleeper cells in India. But that would be a very costly mistake. Indian military has planned for such a scenario for decades and will be waiting to send the princelings to neverland.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by kit »

Cyrano wrote:If at all China dares to attack India in the east, they will target the chicken's neck. The theatre is small and if they succeed, they can claim victory saying they have dismembered India and cut off NE states. They can't get direct support from Pakis but can count on Pakis to make trouble on LAC and trigger sleeper cells in India. But that would be a very costly mistake. Indian military has planned for such a scenario for decades and will be waiting to send the princelings to neverland.
It may look like a chickens neck., but China would have more things to worry about at that point !!

Taking it might look easy but holding it ? .. nah .. they would run faster THAN THEY CAME IN
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by kit »

V_Raman
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by V_Raman »

Cutting of chickens neck will invite first strike by India. We are discussing these things casually - cut off chickens neck - man!

Geopolitically our mindset seems to be like how we perceived Indian cricket team before - we could lose any time and no confidence. Those days are gone!

World is evolving fast - I predict that the conflict possibility between India-China is now near zero.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by VinodTK »

V_Raman wrote:Cutting of chickens neck will invite first strike by India. We are discussing these things casually - cut off chickens neck - man!
Agree 100%
Plus this should be clearly/explicitly stated as part of the nuclear doctrine.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Anoop »

Cutting off the Siliguri corridor invites the following problems for China:

1. Their forces gets trapped in a pincer on both sides. Remember that we have forces equivalent to three Corps on the Eastern side of Siliguri corridor with vast population, cultivatable land, water resources and oil refineries that can sustain these forces for years. Thus is very different from cutting off Leh or Kargil from the hinterland which doesn't have resources in theater and need to be stocked.

2. There is little real estate for maneuver of Chinese forces that come down to cut off the Siliguri corridor. They will be operating on an external line of communication to resupply them - again different from the interior lines of communication if they were to try the same in Kargil or Leh.

3. If they chose to interdict by fire instead of occupation, India will open alternate access via Bangladesh and or sea, until the incursion is cleared. If needed, incursions will be cleared using axis of attack through Bhutan instead of repeating frontal assault like Kargil.

With these options open, why do we need to "casually" talk of either China cutting off the corridor or our First Use in response? Please think through the situation before posting what India will do, especially when it comes to policies that are counter to our doctrine.

This talk seems similar to what is now Chicken's Neck in the Samba area being previously referred to as a Dagger, until Gen. Bakshi showed it for what t is. And that was far more defensible for Pak than the Siliguir corridor is for the Chinese.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by k prasad »

Not to mention, what's the Chinese axis of advance? Either they cut through Bhutan or Nepal, which will be an international relations nightmare for them but more importantly, gives us significant amount of time to prepare a response, or they try and invade through Nathu La, at which point, it's incredibly hard to advance anything more one division or so, and even that will get cut up to pieces before they get to the plains. And once at the plains, they can easily get caught in a double-pincer by Indian armour and infantry, with no real axis of retreat. It's a true chakravyuha.

The other option is to try and advance one division southwest through Nathu La, another southeast through Dokalam, so the two are covering each other. But that will require for both axes of advance to progress at the same pace if it is to work. Against two or three Corps of Indian armed forces, that'll be incredibly unlikely, not to mention, once they're in the plains, they're still open to destruction from long-range massed artillery because they're trapped without room for maneuver. Those forces are walking into a siege, and to almost certain capture or destruction.

The only logical reason the PLA might risk the death and destruction of two whole divisions (20-40,000 troops) is if it allows them to degrade our ability to reinforce Arunachal in the time it takes them to advance with a few divisions in that region and capture territory. But to do that, they'll need strategic surprise. Which goes against tactical advantage, because the only way to actually degrade the transport ring around the chicken's neck is through significant long-range missile strikes, over multiple days. Long range rocket artillery will be at its extreme range from Chinese territory, so it has to be cruise and ballistic missiles. And in the time it takes to significantly impact our infrastructure, we can surge forces into Arunachal.

Again, this is a big gamble because the Indian Army is fairly well entrenched on either side of the Siliguri corridor, in force, and we have significant heavy airlift capability to reinforce those numbers, even if the ground and rail lines of transport are under attack.

The most likely PLA strategy which might offer any sort of strategic surprise will be to avoid any land-based incursion of the chicken's neck, and instead try and launch a massive decapitation strike against our transport infrastructure into the Northeast, especially along the corridor, and the north-south connectors across the Brahmaputra, as they launch a simultaneous ground assault across the front in Arunachal. I'm sure the Armed forces are well prepared for this.

And all of this is even before we even need to discuss retaliatory First Use. We don't need it!
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Larry Walker »

If we always hypotheses that Pakistan will go nuclear in case if we capture RYK - then it is given that India will go nuclear if NE is cutoff (if Chinkis ever get to do that miracle).
Chinkis do not have guts to invade Taiwan where they have much more supremacy in the power that can be applied with in-numerable LoC's - then I am almost confident that Chinkis will never threaten Chicken's neck.
Just a thought - what stops us from taking over Lhasa if Chinkis are anyways hellbent on massive bloodbath ?? Then for them what is the point of taking Arunachal and loosing Tibet ?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by LakshmanPST »

Watch this video from 8:35 to 11:30...
Explains happened on June 15th 2020 at Galwan...
Apparently, Col Santosh Babu's team was ordered to establish an Observation Post at Y-Nala (not sure where this location is in Galwan valley) when they were attacked by PLA from heights...
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by g.sarkar »

Wrong area. Moved. Sorry.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vips »

Zojila-tunnel to Ladakh may be ready in 2025, a year ahead of sept 2026 schedule.

The final phase of the strategic Zojila tunnel project on Srinagar-Leh highway is likely to be completed in September 2025, a year before the deadline set.

The makers of the tunnel, located 3,528 metres above sea level, are hopeful that defence personnel will be able to use the tunnel in raw form by September 2024, which will allow the movement of essential supplies, artillery, arms and ammunition towards the Line of Actual Control in Ladakh, where India and China are engaged in a -off since May 2020.

The tunnels located in Sonamarg area of Ganderbal district in central Kashmir, more than 100 km from Srinagar, will provide an all-weather connectivity to Ladakh, which remains cut off from the rest of the country for four to six winter months every year.

The tunnels located in Sonamarg area of Ganderbal district in central Kashmir, more than 100 km from Srinagar, will provide an all-weather connectivity to Ladakh, which remains cut off from the rest of the country for four to six winter months every year.

The engineering team engaged in the projects said the project involves 18-km tunnels, including a 13-km single tube tunnel falling in the final phase of the project, which will connect Sonamarg to Minamarg. The project also includes a 17-km road, four bridges, three vertical shafts and associated structures.

"When the final tube of Zojila project is complete, the 32-km distance from Sonamarg to Minamarg will be covered in less than 40 minutes instead of four hours. Besides this, all-weather connectivity will immensely help the people of Ladakh and the forces deployed in the region," said Harpal Singh, project in-charge of Megha Engineering and Infrastructure Limited, which is constructing the tunnel. "We are hopeful that the tunnel will be through by September 2025, while defence can use the raw tunnel if the tension along the border continues in Ladakh till September 2024."

He said about 1,000 people worked on the project throughout the winters, despite harsh weather conditions, sub-zero temperature and no connectivity. In summer, the number of workers on the project is likely to surpass 2,000.

Singh said by November 2023, the 18-km stretch up to Baltal, including four tubes of Nilgrar tunnels, will be complete and can be put to use as well. The BJP government is pushing hard if the tension along the border continues in Ladakh till September 2024." ahead of the next parliamentary election in the country.

"Himalayas are young mountains and we could not go for a blast every day. We use the New Austrian Tunnelling method in this project. Our designers and proof consultant are from Spain," said Singh.

The project in-charge said the completion of the tunnel will help boost the economy of Ladakh and people will get all essential commodities in winters, even if there is heavy snowfall.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Vips »

At Rs 249 crore, funds for LAC infrastructure up 6 times from 2020-21.

Allocation of funds for border infrastructure along the line of actual control (LAC) with China has been increased nearly six-folds between 2020-21, the year of the Galwan skirmishes that initiated a border standoff with Chinese troops in Eastern Ladakh, and 2021-22.

In his reply to a question raised in Lok Sabha on Tuesday, junior home minister Nityanand Rai informed the House that funds allocated under the border infrastructure and management (BIM) scheme, meant to secure border areas of north-eastern states including Assam, rose to Rs 249.1 crore in 2021-22 from Rs 42.9 crore and Rs 72.2 crore in 2019-20.

Among the measures initiated by the government to strengthen security along international borders are deployment of adequate border guarding forces, patrolling of borders, laying of nakas, manning of observation posts, vulnerability mapping, setting up border outposts, deployment of surveillance equipment, strengthening of intelligence network, erection of border fence, floodlighting and using technological solutions in non-feasible areas like riverine gaps.

The allocation for the border infrastructure management scheme along the Indo-Myanmar border rose 2.8 times to Rs 50 crore in 2021-22 from Rs 17.4 crore in 2020-21 and Rs 20 crore in 2019-20. However, the allocation for BIM along the Indo-Bangladesh border, including in north-eastern states and West Bengal, rose only marginally to Rs 303.2 crore in 2021-22 from Rs 294.9 crore in 2020-21.

Overall, the funds earmarked for the border infrastructure management scheme went up to Rs 602.3 crore in 2021-22, from Rs 355.1 crore in 2020-21 and Rs499.3 crore in 2019-20.

Rai said the allocated funds have been utilised within the stipulated time frame.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

Much of what we already discussed, some nice images:

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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Dilbu »

India rejected Chinese disengagement proposal for Hot Springs: Report
The visit of Chinese Foreign Minister Wang Yi to Delhi last month was considered a diplomatic breakthrough given the slump in bilateral ties since the standoff in Ladakh started in 2020. During Wang's visit, India and China announced they would work to resolve the standoff.

On Sunday, The Indian Express reported that around the time of Wang's visit, China had sent a proposal for disengagement of troops from Patrolling Point 15 in the Hot Springs area of eastern Ladakh.

“Government sources said China proposed that Indian troops, who have been in an eyeball-to-eyeball confrontation with Chinese troops at PP 15 for almost two years now, move back to the Karam Singh Post between PP 16 and PP 17. China said it would withdraw its troops just behind the Line of Actual Control (LAC) as claimed by India in that region,” The Indian Express reported.

The publication said the proposal was rejected “since the Chinese claim line and India’s understanding of the LAC almost intersect at PP 15. If India were to accept the proposal, it would mean that while Chinese troops would move back very little, Indian troops would have to withdraw several kilometres behind”. A government official told The Indian Express “While they will move back to just behind PP 15, they are asking us to relinquish even PP 16 which has never been claimed by China earlier. It’s like saying ‘I will move back 1 km and you move back 5-10 km.’ It’s a non-starter of a proposal for discussion.”
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ritesh »

Did the boffins at MoD thought that they will come with a fair deal?

No one treats geopolitics like that except our grand IFS and mantris. Their is no We in Intl politics only I. Be Selfish period.
Last edited by ritesh on 11 Apr 2022 22:53, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

And what qualifies Shri ritesh ji to gratuitously smear our own diplomats and ministers handling the affairs today ? That he is a troll with a keyboard?
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ritesh »

Sorry sirjee editing the same.
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by Cyrano »

The current team of key ministers and head of Govt we have is the best we had since independence. They can make mistakes of course, the world around us defies the best calculations. One need not agree with everything they do, but then take the time and effort to put forth cogent arguments as to where and why they went wrong, and if possible, offer some better solutions. Just pi$$ing on them is more suitable for twitter khujli-scratching... Hoping we get interesting posts from you saar !
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Re: India's Border Security with China and Pakistan-2020 - Part 2

Post by ritesh »

Point noted. Thank you for course correction.
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